[sci.electronics] motherboards in the dishwasher?

ieeug330@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu (Mark Wistey) (05/07/91)

(From a thread in comp.sys.apple2)
Someone claimed that the best way to clean a contaminated (e.g. soda pop)
computer keyboard was to disconnect it and run it under tap water.  I thought
water was enough of a solvent to cause damage to circuit boards.  Who's right?
What's the best way to clean a pop-filled keyboard?  (BTW, it's not mine.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Mark Wistey... gmw1142%msu3.dnet@mtsunix1  (BITNet)  | Bicycling, Apple II's,
gmw1142%msu3.dnet@terra.oscs.montana.edu  (InterNet) | Christ-like living,
Quad D, #308, Bozeman, MT 59715, USA      (BikeNet)  | Music, and Physics  :-)

fargo@iear.arts.rpi.edu (Irwin M. Fargo) (05/07/91)

In article <0094836B.DA657A80@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu> ieeug330@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu (Mark Wistey) writes:
>(From a thread in comp.sys.apple2)
>Someone claimed that the best way to clean a contaminated (e.g. soda pop)
>computer keyboard was to disconnect it and run it under tap water.  I thought
>water was enough of a solvent to cause damage to circuit boards.  Who's right?
>What's the best way to clean a pop-filled keyboard?  (BTW, it's not mine.)
>
Although I've never tried this myself, a friend recommended WD-40 or silicone
spray for gummed up keys.  I suggested it to another friend of mine and he
said it worked great.

If you spray the board lightly, clean the soda off, and then wipe off the
silicone, there shouldn't be any problems.  Anyone know what might go
wrong with this idea?

-- 
Thank you and happy hunting!		Actually: Ethan M. Young
					Internet: fargo@iear.arts.rpi.edu
Please press 1 on your touch tone	Bitnet (??): userfp9m@rpitsmts.bitnet
phone to speak to God...		Disclaimer: Who said what?

stevem@specialix.co.uk (Steven Murray) (05/07/91)

ieeug330@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu (Mark Wistey) writes:

>(From a thread in comp.sys.apple2)
>Someone claimed that the best way to clean a contaminated (e.g. soda pop)
>computer keyboard was to disconnect it and run it under tap water.  I thought
>water was enough of a solvent to cause damage to circuit boards.  Who's right?
>What's the best way to clean a pop-filled keyboard?  (BTW, it's not mine.)

If you get it quickly after the accident, get some a little water in there
before you start the real work - but I wouldn't 'run it under the tap'
so much I think.  The best way to clean it up would be to use Isopropyl
alcohol and heaps of paper towels and cotton buds.  The alcohol is a solvent
that will disolve just about anything messy on a circuit board (including
flux), but it is important to 'Sop it up' with something absorbent before it
evaporates, or else you will just be leaving a uniform film of whatever you
were trying to clean off.  BTW Deionized water is used to clean circuit
boards in some PCB production plants.

Regards
Steven Murray
-- 
Steven Murray
uunet!slxsys!stevem  stevem@specialix.co.uk
I am speaking, but  | If these are your opinions, then we are in agreement!!
not for my employer.| Flames, spelling errors, complaints > /dev/null

henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (05/07/91)

In article <0094836B.DA657A80@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu> ieeug330@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu (Mark Wistey) writes:
>Someone claimed that the best way to clean a contaminated (e.g. soda pop)
>computer keyboard was to disconnect it and run it under tap water.  I thought
>water was enough of a solvent to cause damage to circuit boards...

Clean, fresh water is not very corrosive.  It may be worth trying as a
last resort.  I'd recommend taking the keyboard apart, though, so you can
rinse the innards directly and so they will dry relatively quickly.  Water
sitting on the board for a while is bad news.
-- 
And the bean-counter replied,           | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
"beans are more important".             |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

miker@polari.UUCP (Mike Ranta) (05/08/91)

>Someone claimed that the best way to clean a contaminated (e.g. soda pop)
>computer keyboard was to disconnect it and run it under tap water.  I thought
>water was enough of a solvent to cause damage to circuit boards.  Who's right?
>What's the best way to clean a pop-filled keyboard?  (BTW, it's not mine.)
>

Cleaning PC boards in water is _not_ normally a problem.  In fact, nearly
every board in your PC was probably washed that way after it was soldered.
The company I work for produces AT and PS/2 bus boards and they are washed
in a dishwasher with special flux remover "soap" after final assembly.  The
exception to this rule are certain components such as some relays, switches,
connectors, etc.  Certain kinds can trap the water, and hence some of the
dirty residue, and it causes problems.  ICs, resistors, caps, and the PC
board material itself are all very immune to water.  I'd wash your keyboard
out with hot water and perhaps a very dilute solution of Ivory liquid.  At
least you don't stand much to lose....

wm1h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Wayne Alan Martin) (05/08/91)

Sory about the previous post.

>From a another post

Although I've never tried this myself, a friend recommended WD-40 or silicone
spray for gummed up keys.  I suggested it to another friend of mine and he
said it worked great.
 
If you spray the board lightly, clean the soda off, and then wipe off the
silicone, there shouldn't be any problems.  Anyone know what might go
wrong with this idea?
 
-- 
Thank you and happy hunting!		Actually: Ethan M. Young
					Internet: fargo@iear.arts.rpi.edu
Please press 1 on your touch tone	Bitnet (??): userfp9m@rpitsmts.bitnet
phone to speak to God...		Disclaimer: Who said what?

>Not necessary wrong, but I would really recommend against getting
silicone on the key switch contacts.  Suggestion, try plastic safe tuner
cleaner, hopefully better for the case than silicone or WD-40.

Wayne Martin
Dr.FeelGood

Want a soda?
Yeah!
Here catch!
Arghh.....!
splash.

csmith@plains.NoDak.edu (Carl Smith) (05/08/91)

In article <1991May7.153627.4590@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <0094836B.DA657A80@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu> ieeug330@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu (Mark Wistey) writes:

>>Someone claimed that the best way to clean a contaminated (e.g. soda pop)
>>computer keyboard was to disconnect it and run it under tap water.

>Clean, fresh water is not very corrosive.  It may be worth trying as a
>last resort.  I'd recommend taking the keyboard apart, though, so you can
>rinse the innards directly and so they will dry relatively quickly.  Water
>sitting on the board for a while is bad news.

If you try this, and least take the guts of the keyboard out of the case.
It would be difficult to get all the water out of the corners of the case
of a fully assembled keyboard.

Also, if something posseses you to dry it with a hair dryer, be careful not
to melt the key caps.  I once removed the circuit board and washed the 
mechanical parts of a keyboard (the key caps, shafts, springs, and contact 
pads were all mounted in a metal sheet that could be removed from the 
PCB in one piece) and used a hair dryer to dry it.   It was a little too
hot, and the space bar warped a little, making it stick occasionally.
I then cleaned the PCB with alcohol, put the two parts back together, 
and all has worked perfectly ever since.

>-- 
>And the bean-counter replied,           | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
>"beans are more important".             |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

Carl D. Smith Jr.
Electrical and Electronics Engineering
North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND

phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (05/08/91)

I once tried to clean a VT220 keyboard with water. Never worked again.

--
	The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

whinery@hale.ifa.hawaii.edu (Alan Whinery) (05/09/91)

In article <0094836B.DA657A80@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu> ieeug330@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu (Mark Wistey) writes:
>(From a thread in comp.sys.apple2)
>Someone claimed that the best way to clean a contaminated (e.g. soda pop)
>computer keyboard was to disconnect it and run it under tap water.  I thought
>water was enough of a solvent to cause damage to circuit boards.  Who's right?
>What's the best way to clean a pop-filled keyboard?  (BTW, it's not mine.)

Actually the idea of the dishwasher scares me -- all that heat. But as 
far as rinsing a board, there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you 
can dry it fast. The danger from water only comes from being energized, 
when things short to other things. I recall one incident (don't try this 
at home) when I was a consultant to the Navy when 3 entire computers
were dropped into SALT water. They were retrieved, hosed out, and 
blown dry with a high pressure air hose. Two of the 3 passed diagnostics.

Here at my present job, we frequently do final cleaning on prototype
boards with trichloroethylene, after which they are rinsed with tap
water and blown dry with an air hose. I don't know what the ramifications
of not blowing it out would be, but if you use your head and be careful
of nooks and crannies where water would hole up, it should work OK.

Alan
whinery@hale.ifa.hawaii.edu

--
=========================================================================
|  D. Alan Whinery| The Institute for Astronomy, University of Hawaii   |
| Technical Genius| Internet: whinery@hale.ifa.hawaii.edu               |
| Potential Writer| 71350.3005@compuserve.com

fmgst@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Filip Gieszczykiewicz) (05/09/91)

In article <0094836B.DA657A80@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu> ieeug330@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu (Mark Wistey) writes:
>(From a thread in comp.sys.apple2)
>Someone claimed that the best way to clean a contaminated (e.g. soda pop)
>computer keyboard was to disconnect it and run it under tap water.  I thought
>water was enough of a solvent to cause damage to circuit boards.  Who's right?
>What's the best way to clean a pop-filled keyboard?  (BTW, it's not mine.)
>


	Greetings. Hmmm... whenever I get fix something (old and dusty)
	I take an old toothbrush, a bucket of warm water, and a bar of
	soap and clean the PCB.... Then I put it in such a position that
	2 fans push air over and below the board (drying both sides)

	Hasn't failed me yet: I can see what I'm soldering, the chips
	last longer (wash off the oil and grime), and I can see all the
	solder joints :-)

	By the way, I've done this with motherboards, HV boards, keyboards,
	modems, you name it - NOTE: give the wet thing some time to dry ;-)

	Take care.

	P.S. Not responsible for fools plugging in wet motherboard and
	expecting everything to be "peachy"
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
"The Force will be with you, always." It _is_ with me and has been for 11 years
Filip Gieszczykiewicz  "... a Jedi does it with a mind trick... " ;-)
FMGST@PITTVMS  or  fmgst@unix.cis.pitt.edu "My ideas. ALL MINE!!"

wolfgang@wsrcc.com (Wolfgang S. Rupprecht) (05/09/91)

phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
>I once tried to clean a VT220 keyboard with water. Never worked again.

I once cleaned a Wyse-75 keyboard with Sammy Adams.  It never was the
same again either.  ;-)

Even the subsequent washings with tap water didn't help.  Some keys
stayed electrically dirty.  Perhaps one day I'll try to inject some
Cramolin into the really bouncy switches (and watch them stop working
all together).

-wolfgang
-- 
Wolfgang Rupprecht    wolfgang@wsrcc.com (or) uunet!wsrcc!wolfgang
Snail Mail Address:   Box 6524, Alexandria, VA 22306-0524

nick@spider.co.uk (Nick Felisiak) (05/13/91)

In article <1991May7.153627.4590@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu
(Henry Spencer) writes:
>
> [ re cleaning keyboard soaked in soda with water ]
>
>Clean, fresh water is not very corrosive.  It may be worth trying as a
>last resort.  I'd recommend taking the keyboard apart, though, so you can
>rinse the innards directly and so they will dry relatively quickly.  Water
>sitting on the board for a while is bad news.

But don't, as a friend of mine tried, use a hair dryer!  The way he told
it, the keys 'went all funny', and the manufacturing people downstairs
(he worked for a small manufacturer!) couldn't really explain what had
happened!

Nick

-- 
Nick Felisiak 						nick@spider.co.uk
Spider Systems Ltd					+44 31 554 9424

richard@mee.tcd.ie (05/13/91)

Someone had a similar problem last year, and their novel solution was
to bring the keyboard into the shower with them.  This worked a treat
(or so they said), just be sure to leave the keyboard in a warm area
to dry out for 2 or 3 days afterwards.

As regards using solvent cleaners like Isoclene, they're by far the
best way of cleaning keyboards if you can get access to the pcb-to-key
surface area (just try opening an IBM 406 keyboard), but if you can't
or don't wish to go in deep, try a good hot shower.       
                            
Richard,

Richard Bolger                //
Trinity College Dublin       //       rbolger@vax1.tcd.ie       
Republic of Ireland         //             

rolande@kuling.UUCP (Roland Eriksson) (05/13/91)

>>Someone claimed that the best way to clean a contaminated (e.g. soda pop)
>>computer keyboard was to disconnect it and run it under tap water.  I thought
>>water was enough of a solvent to cause damage to circuit boards. Who's right?
I have never cleaned any keyboard (a pocket calculator though) under the tap,
but i have cleaned ceveral other electronic circuit boards under lukewarm
tap water. Afterwards i usually use a fan for drying (no heat). As long as
all IC cases are intact i think there should be no side-effects with the
above mentioned practice. I have never had any really bad cases of contaminated
circuits, but if you *MUST* use a detergent use the mildest you can get.
If the keyboard is of membrane type you may get some problems with water
"inside" the membrane.

>Although I've never tried this myself, a friend recommended WD-40 or silicone
>spray for gummed up keys.  I suggested it to another friend of mine and he
>said it worked great.
WD-40 if *GREAT* anything technical that is not working the way it should
works BETTER with a few drops :-). The ozone may go away or i might get
cancer or something, but i works wonder for any kind of contact problems.
It is good for old clocks too. And it smells nice too.

IMHO use water for cleaning the keyboard, and use WD-40 afterwards to fix
it if it does not work.

Good luck,
Roland Eriksson.

beyo@beyonet.UUCP (Steve Urich) (05/14/91)

In article <2053@kuling.UUCP>, rolande@kuling.UUCP (Roland Eriksson) writes:
 
> WD-40 if *GREAT* anything technical that is not working the way it should
> works BETTER with a few drops :-). The ozone may go away or i might get
> cancer or something, but i works wonder for any kind of contact problems.
> It is good for old clocks too. And it smells nice too.

	<*> WD-40 is generally used in water-proofing sparkplug wires,
	    distributers. Help stop sqeaks :-). 

	    Its does remove and help clean circuit boards, but its not
	    very good for dusty fan blown enclosures. The film of WD-40
	    lasts a long time on the PCB. Dust bunnies will have a ball,
	    not to mention once the film dries up the bunnies will be
	    harder to get off.

	    Unless you have a UUCP site in the middle of the Amazon and
	    you don't want the local fungus to munch away on your PCB's.

Blueshower by Tech Spray (24oz can) is what I use to blow away bunnies.
Easy to use, has lots of pressure, ozone friendly (Thats what the can says)
:-) and evaporates in approx. 5 minutes. No oily film and dry as a whistle.
Doesn't hurt most plastics, works without having to remove the PCB.

						Steve Urich
						WB3FTP
	

jimc@isc-br.ISC-BR.COM (Jim Cathey) (05/15/91)

In article <2053@kuling.UUCP> rolande@kuling.UUCP (Roland Eriksson) writes:
>WD-40 if *GREAT* anything technical that is not working the way it should
>works BETTER with a few drops :-). The ozone may go away or i might get
>cancer or something, but i works wonder for any kind of contact problems.
>It is good for old clocks too. And it smells nice too.

Gack.  WD-40 is something like 40 weight motor oil with a solvent in it.
After a while the solvent evaporates leaving this gummy oily residue all
over the place.  It's even stickier than what was there before you sprayed
it all over.  I've 'ruined' stuff with this.  Ruined means that I had to
_really_ take things apart and clean properly.  Much more trouble than just
doing it right in the first place.  (For an old clock, I'd use some sort of
real solvent, followed by proper lubrication using a fine machine oil.)

>IMHO use water for cleaning the keyboard, and use WD-40 afterwards to fix
>it if it does not work.

Water's cool.  Just save WD-40 for what it's good for:  Cutting into rusty
car parts and door hinges, curing squeaks in large machinery, air freshener...

For a keyboard, I'd use just water (if it will cut whatever), followed by
maybe an ethyl or isopropyl alcohol rinse and dry.  It is crucial that prompt
_complete_ drying take place.  This will probably involve disassembly of
the keyboard.  I "pepsi-syndromed" an old computer of mine, and tub-dunked
the keyboard to get it off.  It took days to dry by itself before it
worked again, and it stopped working after a few more weeks.  I ended up
taking _every_ little keyswitch apart (after desoldering them from the board)
and cleaning the green corrosion off the contacts in the switches.  Yuck.

+----------------+
! II      CCCCCC !  Jim Cathey
! II  SSSSCC     !  ISC-Bunker Ramo
! II      CC     !  TAF-C8;  Spokane, WA  99220
! IISSSS  CC     !  UUCP: uunet!isc-br!jimc (jimc@isc-br.isc-br.com)
! II      CCCCCC !  (509) 927-5757
+----------------+
			"With excitement like this, who is needing enemas?"

berger@clio.sts.uiuc.edu (Mike Berger) (05/17/91)

henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:

>In article <0094836B.DA657A80@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu> ieeug330@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu (Mark Wistey) writes:
>>Someone claimed that the best way to clean a contaminated (e.g. soda pop)
>>computer keyboard was to disconnect it and run it under tap water.  I thought
>>water was enough of a solvent to cause damage to circuit boards...

>Clean, fresh water is not very corrosive.  It may be worth trying as a
>last resort.  I'd recommend taking the keyboard apart, though, so you can
>rinse the innards directly and so they will dry relatively quickly.  Water
>sitting on the board for a while is bad news.
*----
First, there isn't much more corrosive than coke or pepsi!  If you're
cleaning that off a keyboard, don't worry about what water might do.

Secondly, I'll verify that clean water isn't very corrosive.  It's
also not very electrolytic.  I just started cleaning up a foot of
water in my basement from the latest flood - it was high enough,
unfortunately, to get some of the stuff up on pallets.  The biggest
worry about clean water is what it deposits behind.  Eliminate that
concern by rinsing and drying.  In this case, the basement electrical
circuit was submerged (ie. uninsulated live contacts were completely
underwater) but it remained live (and so did I) so I could fix the
sump pump and plug it back in and drain the basement.
--
	Mike Berger
	Department of Statistics, University of Illinois
	AT&TNET     217-244-6067
	Internet    berger@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu

abeals@catnip.berkeley.ca.us (Andrew Scott Beals) (05/18/91)

phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes:

>I once tried to clean a VT220 keyboard with water. Never worked again.

I thought folks at AMD cleaned their VT220 keyboards with coffee.

Or that's what *I* remember at least.  

I would have liked to clean mine with lead.
-- 
Andrew Scott Beals                                                       KC6SSS
abeals@catnip.berkeley.ca.us             ...!apple!catnip.berkeley.ca.us!abeals

chuck@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Chuck Bade) (05/21/91)

I see lots of different advise here, which should clearly indicate there are
different solutions (no pun intended) to this problem.  The truth is that not
all keyboards are created equally, (i.e. mechanical vs optical, mylar film, 
etc) so the clean-up technique should be suitable to the equipment involved.  

If you are paid a decent salary for the time you spend at your keyboard, you 
would probably save them money by pitching the thing and grabbing a 
new one "off the shelf".  What is your time worth?

I speak only for myself and not the company.  One of our engineers here tries
to recycle blank white paper in the LaserJet and usually ends up jamming it,
then everyone else (many of them well paid engineers) waits for their 
printouts, while I try to un-jam it.

   Chuck Bade           HP Integrated Circuits Business Division
                        Specialty Technology Fab, Loveland
   chuck@hpfire.hp.com  (telnet/303) 679-3649