rose@galtee.cs.wisc.edu (Please Stop Me Before I Post Again) (12/19/90)
Coherent Digest Vol. 90.4, No. 2 Sun Dec 16 04:59:59 CST 1990 Today's Topics: Re: Coherent Compatibility Re: Moving to an Alt group... Re: Moving to an Alt group... Re: Moving to an Alt group... Re: Moving to an Alt group... Re: Moving to an Alt group... Alt.coherent vs Comp.os.coherent vs mailing list Alt.coherent vs Comp.os.coherent vs mailing list Problems with getty and kermit Re: Moving to an Alt group alt stuff none a number of things. Re: Move to an Alt group coherent compatibility Administrivia: The Coherent Digest is a forum for discussion of the MWC Coherent 3.x operating system. Send submissions to "coherent@cs.wisc.edu" and administrivia to "coherent-reqeust@cs.wisc.edu". Previous issues are archived for anonymous FTP access on piggy.ucsb.edu in the directory "pub/coherent/mail-list". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Dec 90 17:43:43 PST From: curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca (Curt Sampson) To: coherent Subject: Re: Coherent Compatibility overlord@rlyeh.wimsey.bc.ca (Bill Kloubek) writes: > I am running a 386-33, with a 110 Rodime IDE hard drive. Does Coherent > support the IDE interface? From what I've been reading, I'd like to know > more about Coherent, could somebody tell me where I might purchase a copy > of it? Coherent does support IDE drives if you card is register compatable with a Western Digital IDE controller. I have a 42 MB Teac IDE drive which was originally configured as 2 heads/1050 tracks/40 sectors in my BIOS, and Coherent didn't work. I took it in to my dealer and all he did was change it to the AMI type 17 (5 heads/975 tracks/17 sectors, I think) and it installed fine after that. Don't ask me how that worked... You must purchase Coherent directly from Mark Williams. Most major computer magazines that deal with UNIX or the IBM PC have a full page ad for it somewhere in them. In Canada it will cost you about CDN$145 (US$100 for Coherent + US$12 for airmail shipping). It took about three weeks to arrive after I'd sent off my money order. There are at least two or three people other than me using Coherent in Vancouver, if you're worried about support. cjs | "The unconscious self is the real genius. curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca | Your breathing goes wrong the minute your {uunet|ubc-cs}!van-bc!cynic!curt | conscious self meddles with it." --GBS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 90 17:46:28 PST From: curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca (Curt Sampson) To: coherent Subject: Re: Moving to an Alt group... wayne@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Wayne McCormick) writes: > Curt Sampson writes: (curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca) > > > What do people out there think about turing this list into a newsgroup > > under the alt hierarchy? I'm getting a little sick of recieving each > > of my postings here four or five times due to bounces. :-( > > I don't like this idea, our site doesn't pick up any of the alt groups. Unless there are any major objections, I'll be putting out a newgroup for alt.coherent in a week or so (see my message in alt.config for all the details). It will be gated into the current mailing list so that those of you who don't recieve the alt hierarchy will still have access. This will make life easier for those of us who do carry the alt hierarchy. I'm certainly looking forward to eliminating the four or five bounces I get from the mailing list every day. :-) cjs | "The unconscious self is the real genius. curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca | Your breathing goes wrong the minute your {uunet|ubc-cs}!van-bc!cynic!curt | conscious self meddles with it." --GBS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 90 12:53:37 EST From: wah@zach.fit.edu ( Bill Huttig) To: coherent, curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca Subject: Re: Moving to an Alt group... I dont think we should mess with an alt group they seem to generate a lot of garbage... I dont want my mailbox to fill up with a bunch of crap.... If we go to a news group lets go all they way to comp.os.coherent or comp. whatever... but not alt... Bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 90 13:14:06 PST From: Darren Leigh <dleigh@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> To: coherent Subject: Re: Moving to an Alt group... wah@zach.fit.edu ( Bill Huttig) writes: >I dont think we should mess with an alt group they seem to generate a lot of >garbage... I dont want my mailbox to fill up with a bunch of crap.... If >we go to a news group lets go all they way to comp.os.coherent or comp. >whatever... but not alt... I don't know about alt groups generating garbage (this seems to be a trait of *all* newsgroups) but I agree that we should go with the comp hierarchy. This is a real product and I think there is enough interest to support it. All we need are 100 more yes votes than no votes. Are there even 100 people on the list now? If not it could be tough. Darren Leigh dleigh@hplabs.hp.com hplabs!dleigh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 90 16:09:02 CST From: Scott Rose <rose> To: coherent Subject: Re: Moving to an Alt group... > wah@zach.fit.edu ( Bill Huttig) writes: > > >I dont think we should mess with an alt group they seem to generate a lot of > >garbage... I dont want my mailbox to fill up with a bunch of crap.... If > >we go to a news group lets go all they way to comp.os.coherent or comp. > >whatever... but not alt... > > I don't know about alt groups generating garbage (this seems to be a > trait of *all* newsgroups) but I agree that we should go with the comp > hierarchy. This is a real product and I think there is enough interest > to support it. All we need are 100 more yes votes than no votes. Are > there even 100 people on the list now? If not it could be tough. I'm the administrator of the list, so I can speak to this. There are about 200 addresses on the echo list, and there are about 20 more on the digest list. Some of the addresses on the echo list are themselves redistribution points, so I suspect that there are maybe another fifty readers. However, there are a very large number of foreign readers- sites in Scandinavia, New Zealand, most western European countries abound. Plus, there are plenty of Bitnet recipients, and about a dozen Compuserve recipients. I suspect that many of these folks do *not* have Usenet service (and that alt service is even rarer). I mention this to suggest that the raw number of readers of the list may not reflect a corresponding number of people in a position to vote. Now that you know everything that I know about the size of our readership, draw your own conclusions about whether the votes are there to create a comp group. I now cease speaking from a position of any authority or extra knowledge. It seems as if the major downside of alt distribution is that its reach is not as great as that of, say, the comp hierarchy. I don't beleive that the signal to noise ratio of alt groups with a technical focus differs in a substantial measure from that of technical groups in any other hierarchy, so I personally discount that argument as a substantial factor in the equation. The major upside of alt is that it can be created soon- no ifs, and, buts, or votes required. If a substantial group finds that service to be of value, then it will be a useful one. If the creation of the alt group may contribute to the demise of an effort to create a comp group, then I think its a poor long term solution- I have no idea if it would do that, though. Clearly, we want the widest reach for the traffic as is possible- well, at least that's *my* goal. The email distribution has the widest reach of any solution, but it also has some downsides: its reach is not "broad" in the sense that users must know about list to get the traffic, it requires an administrator, it generates bounced mail, and it is an inefficient use of network bandwidth. A second upside is that, for those who subscribe to the echo, the turnaround time is much faster than for a newgroup. In any event, at least some of us are stuck with the email solution because Usenet does not reach everywhere. In any event, if and when a newsgroup is created, I will do my best to gateway traffic to and from it- I *think* I have the technology to do that in hand. If a comp group follows an alt group, I would propose to drop gatewaying the alt traffic. At this point, I'm not sure what to suggest with respect to this discussion. Like anybody else who has just dominated a soapbox for too long, I inclined to suggest that public discussion come to a close :-) If people who just have an opinion want to send mail to me, I'll search for a concensus, such as I did on the issue of commercial postings. I might then mail a summary of the discussion to everybody that contributed. Certainly, if you have something to say on the matter that you feel hasn't been aired in another posting, don't let me stop you- I don't want to give the appearance of trying to moderate the traffic. -S ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 90 17:36:58 PST From: curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca (Curt Sampson) To: coherent Subject: Re: Moving to an Alt group... There are three major reasons that I am reluctant to try to create comp.os.coherent. First, there would be a delay of two months or more before it is created. Second, a failed vote on it due to being presented prematurely will not help our cause. Third, it is a lot of work to set up and take care of the voting procedures, and I don't really have time for it in the next month. However, it seems that there may be a possibility of creating comp.os.coherent without the usual voting procedures or delays. I'm looking into this now. If it is possible, I will take that route instead, barring any serious objection. I will post an update in a couple of days describing my (possibly revised) proposal. I suggest we continue discussion at that point. At that time I will deal with the questions and comments about alt groups if my proposal (to create alt.coherent) is unchanged. Thanks for your patience. cjs | "The unconscious self is the real genius. curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca | Your breathing goes wrong the minute your {uunet|ubc-cs}!van-bc!cynic!curt | conscious self meddles with it." --GBS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 90 22:00:52 EST From: wah@zach.fit.edu ( Bill Huttig) To: coherent Subject: Alt.coherent vs Comp.os.coherent vs mailing list I think the fairest solution to the problem is to take a vote from the list members on what to do. 1) leave things as they are 2) create an Alt.coherent 3) create a Comp.os.coherent 4) other If someone will count votes then if 3 wins rose can submit the newgroup reqest to the right places on usenet. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 90 01:11:24 -0500 From: <the Scorpio%SCL.CWRU.Edu>nitesh%SCL.CWRU.Edu nitesh<@SCL.CWRU.Edu>nitesh<@SCL.CWRU.Edu> <nitesh@SCL.CWRU.Edu> Subject: Alt.coherent vs Comp.os.coherent vs mailing list To: coherent >I think the fairest solution to the problem is to take a vote from >the list members on what to do. >1) leave things as they are >2) create an Alt.coherent >3) create a Comp.os.coherent >4) other I think this is a good idea. Also add option # 5 as all of the above. Then it would be 1) leave things as they are 2) create an alt.coherent group 3) create a comp.os.coherent group 4) other 5) all of the above (i.e. 1,2 and 3) BTW count my vote on all of these. I vote for #5 Thank You for the important time, 'cas Time is Money. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 90 04:25:26 PST From: curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca (Curt Sampson) To: coherent Subject: Problems with getty and kermit I'm still having problems with getty and kermit on my system. I've tried enabling my 1200 bps modem as both /dev/com1r and /dev/com1l and using both straight 1200 and the 300/1200/110/150 rotating rates. The modem answers the phone, getty prints out "Coherent login" *very* slowly (it looks like it's doing it at about 300 bps or less, though it's got the 1200 bps rate correct as I can see it on the remote end) and the seems to lock completely. Sometimes if I hit return and wait long enough (a minute or more) it will print another "Coherent login." When I try to run kermit after this I get the same problem I described before where what I type goes to the modem but I see nothing back. I'm quite sure it's not the modem. I can turn it off and on again to reset it and the problem persists. I've even managed to log onto another system with it, but I can't see anything that the other end sends me (though I can see it's being received by the data light on the modem). Resetting cures the second problem, until I enable getty again. Has anyone else experienced problems like this? Can anybody offer any useful hints? Help! cjs | "The unconscious self is the real genius. curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca | Your breathing goes wrong the minute your {uunet|ubc-cs}!van-bc!cynic!curt | conscious self meddles with it." --GBS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 90 03:36:16 PST From: curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca (Curt Sampson) To: coherent Subject: Re: Moving to an Alt group wah@zach.fit.edu ( Bill Huttig) writes: > I think the fairest solution to the problem is to take a vote from > the list members on what to do. > 1) leave things as they are > 2) create an Alt.coherent > 3) create a Comp.os.coherent > 4) other > > If someone will count votes then if 3 wins rose can submit the newgroup > reqest to the right places on usenet. This isn't fair at all. Scott Rose can't just go "submit the newgroup request to the right places." The way a group is made is you put up a call for discussion, discuss it for a couple of weeks, do the vote, and the newgrp it. The person who made the call for discussion (i.e., proposed the group) is responsible for seeing that the voting procedures are carried out correctly, a decidedly non-trivial task. It's not at all fair to expect someone to take this on without even a "please" to them. cjs | "The unconscious self is the real genius. curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca | Your breathing goes wrong the minute your {uunet|ubc-cs}!van-bc!cynic!curt | conscious self meddles with it." --GBS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 90 20:54:43 SET From: Roger Thijs <RTHIJS@BANUFS11.BitNet> To: alt stuff <coherent> Subject: alt stuff >I think the fairest solution to the problem is to take a vote from >the list members on what to do. >1) leave things as they are >2) create an Alt.coherent >3) create a Comp.os.coherent >4) other I'm replying from within bitnet. 1. What difference is there for us, poor people, between receiving from: a. coherent at cs.wisc.edu b. coherent at alt.coherent c. coherent at comp.os.coherent? or don't I understand any bit of it? 2. Normal mail from internet normally arrives in a couple of hours 3. List mail, coming from internet, distributed by bitnet listservers, easely takes a week, if it arrives at all (e.g. Info IBMPC Digest) That's ok for archiving, not for communication. 4. Direct phone connections to a u.s. entry point or u.s. bb are virtually inpossible because of: - the high and prohibitive transatlantic telephone rates here - the poor quality of our switched telephone lines (I'm editing this on our mainframe from my pc at home in terminal emulation and had to clear my screen already two dozen of times) Sorry Scott Rose, if I ever complained about late reception, the coherent list as it is actually distributed in bitnet: direct person to person mail, not listserved, arrives I think better than any other list. Please keep it that way, Regards (after a dozen more clears), Roger Thijs, Antwerp UFSIA University ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 90 17:17:54 PST From: i1neal@exnet.iastate.edu (Neal Rauhauser -- ELT Computer Applications Group) Subject: none To: coherent@cs.wisc.edu The new upgrade to Coherent supports the Adaptec 154x scsi controller. Has anyone tried this out yet? I've been out of the Coherent realm for a while due to a badly behaved disk but will be trying again with an Adaptec controller/st296n sometime later this month. Does anyone have the device driver kit? Comments? Neal i1neal@exnet.iastate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 90 17:35 CST From: Trapped in Iowa <BEGLEY@owl.ecil.iastate.edu> To: coherent Subject: a number of things. 1: it seems that the copy oc Cmail on Piggy has been corrupted. If someone has a good copy, could they load it up to the site? 2: The machine on which I maintain the ports list is being replaced next week. I will have a new address for it by early january. 3: I had a few problems sending out the latest version. If anyone didn't receive a copy (mailed out last week) then send me a request. 4: I received a flyer from MWC today describing the new version. I'll scan a copy into text and mail it to the group tomorrow or Monday. 5: The latest issue of Dr. Dobbs Journal describes the porting of BSD UNIX 4.3 Tahoe to the 386. The sources will be available free via FTP. What does anyone think about that? -mike begley begley@forest.ecil.iastate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 90 16:25:17 PST From: curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca (Curt Sampson) To: coherent Subject: Re: Move to an Alt group Roger Thijs <RTHIJS@BANUFS11.BitNet> writes: > I'm replying from within bitnet. > 1. What difference is there for us, poor people, between receiving from: > a. coherent at cs.wisc.edu > b. coherent at alt.coherent > c. coherent at comp.os.coherent? or don't I understand any bit of it? None at all, actually. The big difference it makes it to people on the usenet. Have a newsgroup instead of a mailing list for alt.coherent will have two big advantages: 1) News is transfered once in compressed format. Everybody reads the same article. Mail, on the other hand, is often not compressed (thereby taking up twice as much transmission time for an equal amount of text) and it also has to be transfered several times, once for each subscriber. If there are five people behind me subscribed to a mailing list, the volume will be over ten times as larger though my system than if it were a newsgroup. 2) Because of the way the server works, if a message to a subscriber bounces, I get the bounce notification. Seven of the fifteen letters in my mailbox this morning were bounces of my posts yesterday. This generates even more unneeded traffic on the net, and is rather annoying personally, too. > 2. Normal mail from internet normally arrives in a couple of hours > 3. List mail, coming from internet, distributed by bitnet listservers, > easely takes a week, if it arrives at all (e.g. Info IBMPC Digest) > That's ok for archiving, not for communication. As I saw it, Scott was going to gate the newsgroup directly into the mailing list and continue to keep the digest seperate. That means that as soon as a post in whatever.coherent arrives at his system it would be mailed off to all the subscribers of the mailing list. I can't see that resulting in much of a decrease in propagation time. I hope this this clears up your doubts about creating a newsgroup. cjs | "The unconscious self is the real genius. curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca | Your breathing goes wrong the minute your {uunet|ubc-cs}!van-bc!cynic!curt | conscious self meddles with it." --GBS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 90 19:03:30 PST From: overlord@rlyeh.wimsey.bc.ca (Bill Kloubek) To: coherent Subject: coherent compatibility curt@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca (Curt Sampson) writes: > You must purchase Coherent directly from Mark Williams. Most major > computer magazines that deal with UNIX or the IBM PC have a full page > ad for it somewhere in them. In Canada it will cost you about CDN$145 > (US$100 for Coherent + US$12 for airmail shipping). It took about > three weeks to arrive after I'd sent off my money order. There are > at least two or three people other than me using Coherent in > Vancouver, if you're worried about support. > Who is the local dealer that helped you set up your system? As I have had little experience with setting up Unix systems, I'd like to know if there is any support that would take less than 3 weeks for an answer! :) I'll keep my eyes open for a Coherent ad, any particular places to look? (The first I'd heard about it was within this group!) thanks. ------------------------------ End of Coherent Digest Vol. 90.4, No. 2 *************************************** -- Scott Rose rose@cs.wisc.edu