tech@auvax.UUCP (Richard Loken) (03/08/88)
I have recieved a lot of useful advice on my floppy drive. The conclusion
is that I should try to clean it myself and then look for help if that fails.
I got a number of addresses of places that sell 8" drives for well under $50.
so I also think I will fill my other two slots - you can't hardly lose. Take
six they're small.
********* 73
********** Richard Loken VE6BSV
. ****
.. **** Athabasca University
.... **** Athabasca, Alberta Canada
..........**** ihnp4!alberta!auvaxphillip@nuchat.UUCP (Phillip Keen) (03/17/88)
In article <547@auvax.UUCP>, tech@auvax.UUCP (Richard Loken) writes: > I have recieved a lot of useful advice on my floppy drive. The conclusion > is that I should try to clean it myself and then look for help if that fails. > > I got a number of addresses of places that sell 8" drives for well under $50. > so I also think I will fill my other two slots - you can't hardly lose. Take > six they're small. > Robert, although I reallize that 8" floppies are still good, but because you cannot find them hardly anymore I think you should get rid of your 8" floppy disk drives, but before that get 5 1/4" disk drives then get bunches of 5 1/4" disks and copy your library over to the 5 1/4" disks and then get rid of your 8" disks and disk drives if you can. Another reason I say this is I've heard that 8" disks and disk drives are unreliable. I don't know if this is true or not but it's a rumor I've heard. -- Thanks, Snail Address: Phillip Keen Phillip Keen 2705 Martin Pasadena, TX 77502
mlinar@eve.usc.edu (Mitch Mlinar) (03/18/88)
In article <802@nuchat.UUCP> phillip@nuchat.UUCP (Phillip Keen) writes: >of your 8" disks and disk drives if you can. Another reason I say this is I've >heard that 8" disks and disk drives are unreliable. I don't know if this >is true or not but it's a rumor I've heard. Hogwash! Where did you here this rumour??? Being exposed to hundreds of 8" users over the past 8 years and using all three formats (3.5, 5.25, 8.00) myself, I can safely state that NO format is more reliable than another. What DOES matter is the quality of the hardware (disk drive and, to some extent, the disk controller). Early 8" drives were lousy, but so where 5.25 for that matter. Personally, I have had errors crop up on all three drives - and cleaning solved the problem in all cases. Alignment (if you don't have prehistoric drives) is rare unless you play frisbee with them (or have a portable that gets kicked a lot). Small drives are better for one obvious reason: size. But I use all three since I get 1.3M on 8" disks and only 400-800k on 5.25/3.5 in the CP/M world. 8" drives are also 2x faster than 5.25 (if your skew factor is correct). -Mitch P.S. 8" drives are also nice for compatibility with other CP/M users, although the Kaypro format is pretty well known also.
jep@oink.UUCP (James E. Prior) (03/18/88)
In article <802@nuchat.UUCP> phillip@nuchat.UUCP (Phillip Keen) writes: >In article <547@auvax.UUCP>, tech@auvax.UUCP (Richard Loken) writes: >> I have recieved a lot of useful advice on my floppy drive. The conclusion >> is that I should try to clean it myself and then look for help if that fails. >> >> I got a number of addresses of places that sell 8" drives for well under $50. >> >Robert, although I reallize that 8" floppies are still good, but because you >cannot find them hardly anymore I think you should get rid of your 8" floppy >disk drives, but before that get 5 1/4" disk drives then get bunches of >5 1/4" disks and copy your library over to the 5 1/4" disks and then get rid >of your 8" disks and disk drives if you can. Another reason I say this is I've >heard that 8" disks and disk drives are unreliable. I don't know if this >is true or not but it's a rumor I've heard. ^^^^^ I have many eight inch drives. They don't give me any more trouble than 5-1/4" drives. The reasons people went to 5-1/4" drives are that they are lighter, require smaller box, require less power, and that their *list* price was much lower. The biggest reason was price, not performance. Only within the last few years have 5-1/4" drives become comparable with 8" drives. People did *NOT* go to 5-1/4" drives for "better" reliability. The 5-1/4" drives were initially plagued with problems, especially with cramming too many bits on too little media. 8" drives using MFM (ordinary double-density) have been able to hold 1.2M starting over *TEN* years ago. They didn't have to pull any tricks. They also have *twice* the transfer rate of the same density of 5-1/4" drives. Please don't poo-poo 8" drives just because there are big, ugly, or unfashionable. They work. For someone who already has the cases, power supply, and controller for 8" drives, it is cheapest to keep them because people almost give 8" floppies and drives away. A friend gave me a pair of brand-new Shugart 801-R's for free last year. I've seen them go for $5 to $25 at flea markets. Business are *throwing* away 8" floppies where no one knows better to grab them for home. At flea markets they go for 20 cents a piece. Floppies usually appear at flea markets in lots of 50 to a few hundred. I have enough 8" floppies to last me a long time. For many people with 8" drives, converting over to 5-1/4" drives is dumb. It's expensive. They'd typically have to buy the drives, enclosure, power supplies, and a new controller. That's quite a few bucks, and for something that is inferior. It's a hell of a lot of hassle to convert the BIOS of the old S-100's to a different controller. It's a hell of a lot of hassle to convert the 8" floppies to 5-1/4". -- Jim Prior {ihnp4|osu-cis}!n8emr!oink!jep jep@oink.UUCP Pointers are my friend.
wieland@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffrey J Wieland) (03/18/88)
In article <802@nuchat.UUCP> phillip@nuchat.UUCP (Phillip Keen) writes: >In article <547@auvax.UUCP>, tech@auvax.UUCP (Richard Loken) writes: >> I have recieved a lot of useful advice on my floppy drive. The conclusion >> is that I should try to clean it myself and then look for help if that fails. > >Robert, although I reallize that 8" floppies are still good, but because you >cannot find them hardly anymore I think you should get rid of your 8" floppy >disk drives, but before that get 5 1/4" disk drives then get bunches of >5 1/4" disks and copy your library over to the 5 1/4" disks and then get rid >of your 8" disks and disk drives if you can. Another reason I say this is I've >heard that 8" disks and disk drives are unreliable. I don't know if this >is true or not but it's a rumor I've heard. I've always heard that 8" was MORE reliable. Besides, they transfer data twice as fast as 5.25" (except for the AT-type high-density drives). Our locally owned computer store here in West Lafayette, IN still has 8" disks on the shelves. And I still see them advertised in some of the catalogs I get (e.g. Central Computer Products' "CP/M Times" catalog). Jeff Wieland wieland@ea.ecn.purdue.edu "
bill@ozdaltx.UUCP (Billy Bob) (03/18/88)
In article <802@nuchat.UUCP>, phillip@nuchat.UUCP (Phillip Keen) writes: > Robert, although I reallize that 8" floppies are still good, but because you > cannot find them hardly anymore I think you should get rid of your 8" floppy > disk drives, but before that get 5 1/4" disk drives then get bunches of > 5 1/4" disks and copy your library over to the 5 1/4" disks and then get rid >of your 8" disks and disk drives if you can. Another reason I say this is I've > heard that 8" disks and disk drives are unreliable. I don't know if this > is true or not but it's a rumor I've heard. > -- >Thanks, Snail Address: Phillip Keen It must be true. The two Qume DT-8's that I'm using are only 9 years old. Had to get them cleaned and re-aligned last year, so they must not be very dependable. Course, my system is only used every day for only 6-8 hours. ;-} I did break down last year and buy a newer Qume Track 842 and added it to the stack. I am worried about my hard disk, though, it's 8 years old, and still formats without any errors other than those listed on the factory stat sheet. It's an 8" Quantum 2040, with considerable miles also. YOu'd think that IMS, Industrial Micro Systems, the manufactuer of my S-100, would have made better systems back in 1979....... bob
cwwj@ur-tut (Clarence Wilkerson) (03/19/88)
One option if you change to 5" drives is to use the newer HD drives usually found on the pc ats. I bought one for about $100. On my AT, I can use it to read 360k ( 48tpi), 720k ( 96tpi QD) and 1.2 meg (96tpi, HD) disks. I usually only write 1.2 meg floppies on it.
cwwj@ur-tut (Clarence Wilkerson) (03/19/88)
I agree that there's no reason to throw away your 8 inchers if you're pleased with your system. But there are disadvantages. The 1.2 meg storage can now be obtained from either 5" or 3.5 inch drives. In the case of the HD 5", I believe this could be done with no reworking of the BIOS, since you would use the 8 inch controller data rate to the 5" drive.
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu (03/19/88)
There are a lot of fallacies there. 8" disks are still readily available,
and commonly used in commercial word processors. Contrary to your remarks
about reliability, 8" disks are notoriously more reliable than their
5.25" counterparts. They typically contain more data, and transfer
faster, than 5.25" drives of comparable density and data capacity.
It would not be feasible to replace the 8" drives on my NEC APC with
5.25" drives. I couldn't tolerate the reduced capacity and slowdown.
My solution was to add 8" drives to my XT clone. With those, and
Uniform, I can accomodate a lot of different 8" formats.
Incidentally, I'd love to know where I can get new 8" DSDD disk
drives for $ 50. That's a real bargain.
Mike Berger
Department of Statistics
Science, Technology, and Society
University of Illinois
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu
{ihnp4 | convex | pur-ee}!uiucuxc!clio!bergerbudden@tetra.NOSC.MIL (Ray A. Buddenberg) (03/19/88)
Agree with Jim that there is no real need to dump 8" drives. I've got a hybrid with both on my CPM workhorse. But there is one additional reason that 8" can be a liability in certain situations. The drive motor is the only thing in the whole computer that does anything with 60 Hz. Aboard ships, we had to trade our 8 inchers out because when the cooks fired up the stoves in the galley for breakfast, we got cycle sags. Which changed the drive speed. The result was what we called 'data smear', a phenomenon that made you a believer in backing up your work. 5" drives, which run on DC only don't have this problem (true for both hard discs and floppies). Rex Buddenberg
jep@oink.UUCP (James E. Prior) (03/20/88)
In article <667@tetra.NOSC.MIL> budden@tetra.nosc.mil.UUCP (Ray A. Buddenberg) writes: > >Agree with Jim that there is no real need to dump 8" drives. >I've got a hybrid with both on my CPM workhorse. > >But there is one additional reason that 8" can be a liability >in certain situations. The drive motor is the only thing in >the whole computer that does anything with 60 Hz. Aboard ships, we >had to trade our 8 inchers out because when the cooks fired up >the stoves in the galley for breakfast, we got cycle sags. >Which changed the drive speed. The result was what we called >'data smear', a phenomenon that made you a believer in backing >up your work. > >5" drives, which run on DC only don't have this problem (true for >both hard discs and floppies). > >Rex Buddenberg I sympathize. Since the half height drives came out years ago, there has been an easy solution. All the 8" half height drives that I know about ran on DC only. One does need a hefty +24V supply for such beasts though. Unfortunately, these are still more expensive even at the flea markets than full size 8" drives. Caveat: I bought a Tandon 848-2 brand new @ $450. Tandon's 8" drives were plauged with a long motor startup speed stabilization period. Their drives would signal that they were up to speed before they should. Some of the solutions to this problem were to delay the assertion of that signal in hardware, or to add some kill time loop in software. Another solution was configure them to run all the time. Unfortunately, this drive always had the head loaded, so this was not a nice solution. The best solution was to get Shugart half height drives. The had a direct drive motor that would get up to speed very quick without fluctuating. If any of y'all consider getting half height 8" drives, get Shugarts if you can. They had the feel of quality to them in many ways. I always heard good things about them, although I have no empirical experience of my own with them. For folks in 50Hz areas, there were typically two ways of doing AC motor stuff. Some manufacturer had a dual pulley on the motor. You'd loosen the set screw, pull off the pulley, turn it over, put it back on, and tighten the set screw. The other (obvious) way was to have a 50Hz motor. The fifty Hz folks sometimes lived in areas where the power line frequency varied, putting them in the same boat :-) as you were in. -- Jim Prior {ihnp4|osu-cis}!n8emr!oink!jep jep@oink.UUCP Pointers are my friend.
jep@oink.UUCP (James E. Prior) (03/20/88)
In article <18700014@clio> berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu writes: >There are a lot of fallacies there. 8" disks are still readily available, >and commonly used in commercial word processors. It has been my understanding that there isn't anyone making 8" drives anymore. When Qume quit making 8" drives a year or two ago, I remember comments that they were the last manufacturer. 8" drives *are* available, but not necessarily readily. There are surplus dealers who have them ready for a signficant price. If you want it cheap, you have to wait for the right opertunity at a flea market, or a friend or company unloading their old stuff. >Contrary to your remarks >about reliability, 8" disks are notoriously more reliable than their >5.25" counterparts. They typically contain more data, and transfer >faster, than 5.25" drives of comparable density and data capacity. Amen. >It would not be feasible to replace the 8" drives on my NEC APC with >5.25" drives. I couldn't tolerate the reduced capacity and slowdown. Amen. >My solution was to add 8" drives to my XT clone. With those, and >Uniform, I can accomodate a lot of different 8" formats. He's not joking! A friend of mine did this also! He can put 1.2M on his 8" MS-DOS disks, and also read many various CP/M formats into his XT! It's very handy. BTW, genuine IBM floppy controllers have a DC-37 connector for external drives. >Incidentally, I'd love to know where I can get new 8" DSDD disk >drives for $ 50. That's a real bargain. The Trenton Computer Festival and Dayton Hamvention are your best prospects. Last year a BIG stack of 8" drives went for $5 each. Also look in Computer Shopper. -- Jim Prior {ihnp4|osu-cis}!n8emr!oink!jep jep@oink.UUCP Pointers are my friend.
bill@sigma.UUCP (William Swan) (03/22/88)
In article <18700014@clio> berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu writes: >[...] >Incidentally, I'd love to know where I can get new 8" DSDD disk >drives for $ 50. That's a real bargain. I second that!! The wife is pestering for a machine of her own, and if I could get a couple new 8" DSDD drives she'd have it within days. -- William Swan {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill
gerry@syntron.UUCP (G. Roderick Singleton) (03/24/88)
Any of you that are searching for 8" floppies can substitute any
5-1/4" floppy dirve that is shurgart 475 equivalent. Build an adapter
cable and pull the hi-den line TRUE. Now you have an 8" drive in
5-1/4 clothes. Getting 1.2 Mbytes out of one of these small beaties is
very nice and with the addition of some control you can even handle
780 Kbyte diskettes and read 48 tpi ssdd and dsdd diskettes. There are
also supposed to be some 3-1/2" drives that will give the same
performance on the same interface.
Think of it more choices!
--
G. Roderick Singleton, Technical Services Manager
{ syntron | geac | eclectic }!gerry
"ALL animals are created equal, BUT some animals are MORE equal than others."
George Orwellmikes@ncoast.UUCP (Mike Squires) (03/28/88)
Philli Keen writes: >Robert, although I reallize that 8" floppies are still good, but because you >cannot find them hardly anymore I think you should get rid of your 8" floppy >disk drives, but before that get 5 1/4" disk drives then get bunches of >5 1/4" disks and copy your library over to the 5 1/4" disks and then get rid >of your 8" disks and disk drives if you can. Another reason I say this is I've >heard that 8" disks and disk drives are unreliable. I don't know if this >is true or not but it's a rumor I've heard. >-- 8" floppies are easily available from mail order houses and at surplus stores. I have several 8" systems and several 5 1/4" systems; the reliability of the 8" drives is strictly a function of the controller implementation. My experience is that the 5 1/4" floppies are less reliable, overall, and the 8" drives are far more reliable than 5 1/4" drives. I have my IMSAI with two Tandon 848-2`s and a Tarbell DD controller set for 3ms step rates; it is still very fast compared to an IBM PC when running WordStar, or a Televideo HD system running CP/M. Mike Squires Allegheny College Meadville, PA 16335 814 724 3360 uucp: ..!mandrill!ncoast!{mikes,peng!sir-alan!mikes} or ..!pitt!sir-alan!mikes BITNET: mikes%sir-alan@pitt.UUCP (VAX) MIKES AT SIR-ALAN!PITT.UUCP (IBM)
msharp@hawk.ulowell.edu (Mike Sharp) (04/09/88)
In article <4735@ozdaltx.UUCP> bill@ozdaltx.UUCP (Billy Bob) writes: >In article <802@nuchat.UUCP>, phillip@nuchat.UUCP (Phillip Keen) writes: > >> Robert, although I reallize that 8" floppies are still good, but because you >> cannot find them hardly anymore I think you should get rid of your 8" floppy >> disk drives, but before that get 5 1/4" disk drives then get bunches of >> 5 1/4" disks and copy your library over to the 5 1/4" disks and then get rid >>of your 8" disks and disk drives if you can. Another reason I say this is I've >> heard that 8" disks and disk drives are unreliable. I don't know if this >> is true or not but it's a rumor I've heard. >> -- >>Thanks, Snail Address: Phillip Keen > >It must be true. The two Qume DT-8's that I'm using are only 9 years >old. Had to get them cleaned and re-aligned last year, so they must >not be very dependable. Course, my system is only used every day for >only 6-8 hours. ;-} > > I have a set of old Shugart 851 (DS/DD 8" drives) which I cleaned once (I think - maybe not at all) since a bought them 5-6 years ago -- and they were used when I bought them! During this time I have also cleaned a great number of 5.25" drives repeatedly and replaced two of them (one on a compaq & the other on an NEC APC III) I guess they just didn't make systems as well back then. :-) Moral: They're like the old V-8s, not as much power/area (or in this case tracks/inch) but YOU CAN'T KILL 'EM! Also, if you switch to 5.25" for CP/M, what format will you use? You won't be able to xfer stuff as easily either. (or at least I wont) Remeber: 8" SSSD format is STANDARD for all (ok, well 90%) of the CP/M machines! Mike Sharp
cwwj@ur-tut (Clarence Wilkerson) (04/10/88)
You may not want to believe it, but the Apple CP/M format is probably more of standard, based on machines in use.
phillip@nuchat.UUCP (Phillip Keen) (04/11/88)
In article <4735@ozdaltx.UUCP>, bill@ozdaltx.UUCP (Billy Bob) writes: > In article <802@nuchat.UUCP>, phillip@nuchat.UUCP (Phillip Keen) writes: > > > Robert, although I reallize that 8" floppies are still good, but because you > > cannot find them hardly anymore I think you should get rid of your 8" floppy > > disk drives, but before that get 5 1/4" disk drives then get bunches of > > 5 1/4" disks and copy your library over to the 5 1/4" disks and then get rid > >of your 8" disks and disk drives if you can. Another reason I say this is I've > > heard that 8" disks and disk drives are unreliable. I don't know if this > > is true or not but it's a rumor I've heard. > > -- > >Thanks, Snail Address: Phillip Keen > > It must be true. The two Qume DT-8's that I'm using are only 9 years > old. Had to get them cleaned and re-aligned last year, so they must > not be very dependable. Course, my system is only used every day for > only 6-8 hours. ;-} > > I did break down last year and buy a newer Qume Track 842 and added it > to the stack. > > I am worried about my hard disk, though, it's 8 years old, and still > formats without any errors other than those listed on the factory stat > sheet. It's an 8" Quantum 2040, with considerable miles also. > > YOu'd think that IMS, Industrial Micro Systems, the manufactuer of my > S-100, would have made better systems back in 1979....... > > bob > It is true, but if you shop around at electronics store you can probably locate them. There were several electronics stores that I have seen the 8" floppy disk drives still, but few and usually with no warranty. I have never seen a machine using 8" floppies but I have never seen one. One of the places I believe I saw an 8" floppy is a place in Lubbock, TX but I cannot remember the name of it. Well, hope you find some or find someone who still work on 8" floppies. Also, does anyone know where about's I can get 3/4 hight 5.25" disk drives? My disk drives on the Zorba have just about had it, and so I need to get some new drives and the Zorba uses 3/4 hight drives. Which one of these CP/M machines would be a good buy, or if there's not a machine on the list that you'd like to specify, please specify it anyways. Thanks. The machines are: [ ] TRS-80 Model 4 [ ] Kaypro (model with 392k DS/DD disk drives) [ ] Xerox 820-II [ ] Osborne 1 [ ] Osborne Executive Any information would be appreciated. Also, i'd like to know a price range now days for what these machines are going for. -- Smail Address: Phillip Keen - 2705 Martin - Pasadena, TX 77502 Path: uunet!nuchat!phillip
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu (04/14/88)
Perhaps the place in Lubbock that you were thinking of was Texas
Instruments. In any case, 8" floppy disk drives are still manu-
factured and still very easy to get ahold of... except possibly
at Radio Shack.
As for which of the computers you listed would be a good buy, that
depends highly on price, condition, features, and what you plan to
use it for. The Xerox 820 is widely supported by the users, and
widely available at hamfests and from surplus dealers. I'd avoid
the Radio Shack/Tandy computers. Their CP/M was not really standard,
due to hardware constraints on memory locations.
Mike Berger
Department of Statistics
Science, Technology, and Society
University of Illinois
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu
{ihnp4 | convex | pur-ee}!uiucuxc!clio!bergerberger@clio.las.uiuc.edu (04/14/88)
Incidentally, are you sure about those 3/4 height drives? I've seen
2/3 height drives, but never 3/4 height.
Mike Berger
Department of Statistics
Science, Technology, and Society
University of Illinois
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu
{ihnp4 | convex | pur-ee}!uiucuxc!clio!berger