fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) (11/21/90)
A public 'thank you' to don maslin for sending me a boot disk for my geriatric kaypro 2/83. it's people like him who make this hobby worth pursuing... But, i am having some problems that are very strange - unless they are common to kaypro machines. (which i am not) first, i formatted a bunch of blanks so i could put the 'master' in a safe place. during the format process, the machine had to retry several tracks. the most it had to on any single track was once, but still this is somewhat unerving. ironically, it has the same pattern of track retries for a given disk no matter which floppy it's in. by the by, i did this with the 'mfdisk' multi-format program, selecting kaypro double density. well, each disk that formatted checked out with no errors, so that's not critical... however, using the copy program (much like diskcopy in msdos) it crashed rather beautifully, all kinds of trash on the screen. however, an ESC would bring it back to the CCP. oh, it also beeps with each new helping of screen trash. and last, but not least, STAT dies upon loading. no error message, not a peep. loads and stops dead in it's tracks. the reset button is the only way out. (aside from turning the machine off and on...) PIP does work, and i used that to copy the system disk, as well as SYSGEN to transfer the operating system. now, i know the disk heads are probably filthy from sitting in a dusty warehouse for a good many years, which would account for the problems formatting disks, so i'll pry the machine apart and spend some time with alcohol-soaked Q-tips and maybe even a head cleaner as a last resort, but i doubt dirty r/w heads would cause copy and stat to crash like they did. (whenever the heads on my trs2 mod 12 get dirty enough to cause problems, i usually get a BDOS error, but never a crash.) any help would be greatly appreciated... i like this little machine, now if i can get it to work properly, i'd like to add dsqd drives to it. anyone know where i can find a pd hacked bios for that?? -- fzsitvay@techbook.COM - but don't quote me on that.... American Oil Company motto - Bend over, We'll pump!!!
fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) (11/21/90)
something else i should have mentioned... is it normal for the drive access led to stay lit even after the drive has been accessed?? right now, the machine has been sitting after booting for a good half hour, and the led for drive a is still lit. of course, the led goes out when i turn the machine off. if i access drive b, it will do the same for drive b. -- fzsitvay@techbook.COM - but don't quote me on that.... American Oil Company motto - Bend over, We'll pump!!!
rzh@ICF.LLNL.GOV (R. Hanscom) (11/22/90)
In <1990Nov20.221811.7383@techbook.com>, fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes: > is it normal for the > drive access led to stay lit even after the drive has been accessed?? I believe that this is normal behavior for a Kaypro. At least mine does this. It worried me at first because I have another machine that refuses to give me back the diskette when the led is on. The Kaypro doesn't do this. One can remove the diskette if the little light is off or on! roger icf!rzh@lll-winken.llnl.gov rzh@phoenix.ocf.llnl.gov
mwilson@crash.cts.com (Marc Wilson) (11/22/90)
In article <1990Nov20.221811.7383@techbook.com> fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes: > > something else i should have mentioned... is it normal for the >drive access led to stay lit even after the drive has been accessed?? >right now, the machine has been sitting after booting for a good >half hour, and the led for drive a is still lit. of course, the >led goes out when i turn the machine off. if i access drive b, it >will do the same for drive b. That's the way the D BIOS works. The last drive selected STAYS selected until you select another. It's not dangerous, it's just the way the ROM BIOS deals with the drives. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Marc Wilson ARPA: ...!crash!mwilson@nosc.mil ...!crash!pnet01!pro-sol!mwilson@nosc.mil UUCP: [ cbosgd | hp-sdd!hplabs | sdcsvax | nosc ]!crash!mwilson INET: mwilson@crash.CTS.COM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Marc Wilson ARPA: ...!crash!mwilson@nosc.mil ...!crash!pnet01!pro-sol!mwilson@nosc.mil UUCP: [ cbosgd | hp-sdd!hplabs | sdcsvax | nosc ]!crash!mwilson INET: mwilson@crash.CTS.COM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
donm@pnet07.cts.com (Don Maslin) (11/22/90)
11-21-90
First, a blushing thanks for the kudo!
Taking things in a different order than you presented them:
The results you are getting with COPY.COM and STAT.COM are
obviously not right. Their CRCs should be 62 12 and 4C ED,
respectively. If they are not, let me know and I will see that
you get 'fresh' copies.
The fact that your retry problem, during format, is 'portable'
from drive to drive suggests a diskette problem - but not
necessarily! I have had some problems in the past on a Morrow
machine, with the old Shugart single sided drives, that looked
like a disk problem but the problem was really the drives sticking
and not indexing properly.
On the later machines, at least, the drive light (and motor) stay
on for several seconds after disk access and then turn off. I
would assume that yours should do that also.
In order to use QD drives you need to make changes to both ROM and
BIOS. There are/were a couple of outfits that had slightly
differing versions: Advent's TurboROM and Micro Cornucopia's MAX
ROM. I hear that Advent has shut down (I have not personally
checked that), but Micro C is still selling their stuff - just out
of the magazine business.
By the way, when you 'pry the machine apart' to anoint the drives with
alcohol, check the ROM number. It should be chip U47 near front center,
and the ROM number should be either 81-149-C or 81-232-A.
Keeper of the CP/M System Disk | UUCP: {nosc ucsd crash ncr-sd}!pnet07!donm
Archives for the Dino(saur)SIG | ARPA: simasd!pnet07!donm@nosc.mil
- San Diego Computer Society - | INET: donm@pnet07.cts.comfloyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson) (11/22/90)
In article <5783@crash.cts.com> mwilson@crash.cts.com (Marc Wilson) writes: >In article <1990Nov20.221811.7383@techbook.com> fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes: >> >> something else i should have mentioned... is it normal for the >>drive access led to stay lit even after the drive has been accessed?? >>right now, the machine has been sitting after booting for a good >>half hour, and the led for drive a is still lit. of course, the >>led goes out when i turn the machine off. if i access drive b, it >>will do the same for drive b. > > That's the way the D BIOS works. The last drive selected STAYS >selected until you select another. It's not dangerous, it's just the >way the ROM BIOS deals with the drives. With the original monitor ROM in '83 machines the heads would also stay loaded and the disks spinning. That tends to wear out the floppy. I don't remember how much of that is a problem with Tandon drives and how much a problem with the monitor ROM, as I replaced both in every Kaypro I owned. At one time I had 4 of them, and now there is only one left and it rarely ever gets turned on. So this is all from foggy memory. There used to be a significant difference between different brands of floppy disks when it came to how long they would last in a Kaypro under heavy use. I found that one of the cheaper brands would have the media peeling right off the disk fairly quickly, and saved several examples to demonstrate the point to anyone who recommended cheap floppies! You could see right through the worn areas! Floyd -- Floyd L. Davidson floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu Salcha, AK 99714 paycheck connection to Alascom, Inc. When I speak for them, one of us will be *out* of business in a hurry.
floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson) (11/22/90)
In article <1990Nov22.030504.6649@simasd.uucp> donm@pnet07.cts.com (Don Maslin) writes: > > 11-21-90 > > On the later machines, at least, the drive light (and motor) stay > on for several seconds after disk access and then turn off. I > would assume that yours should do that also. The Kaypro monitor ROM has no provision for timeout on the disks. Micro C's ROM and TurboROM both do. > In order to use QD drives you need to make changes to both ROM and > BIOS. There are/were a couple of outfits that had slightly > differing versions: Advent's TurboROM and Micro Cornucopia's MAX > ROM. I installed a TurboROM on a K-10, and once had a copy of the first ROM that Micro C sold. I don't recall that the BIOS needed to be changed with either of them. Mind you I could be wrong on that, but if I remember right all the code that handles disk blocking and so on is in the ROM, all the BIOS does is call the ROM. On most earlier CP/M systems that code was actually in the BIOS itself. Floyd -- Floyd L. Davidson floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu Salcha, AK 99714 paycheck connection to Alascom, Inc. When I speak for them, one of us will be *out* of business in a hurry.
donm@pnet07.cts.com (Don Maslin) (11/23/90)
floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson) writes: > >The Kaypro monitor ROM has no provision for timeout on the disks. >Micro C's ROM and TurboROM both do. You are right - at least mostly. On the K10 with 81-302 ROM the drive light and motor does timeout. Whether this is in ROM or O/S I don't know. On the KP-2X (81-292), only the drive motor times out. The light remains on. > >I installed a TurboROM on a K-10, and once had a copy of the first >ROM that Micro C sold. I don't recall that the BIOS needed to be >changed with either of them. Mind you I could be wrong on that, >but if I remember right all the code that handles disk blocking and >so on is in the ROM, all the BIOS does is call the ROM. On most >earlier CP/M systems that code was actually in the BIOS itself. > Rereading the Micro C manual strongly suggests that you are right. I don't now have access to the T'ROM manual, but it likely is the same. I stand corrected (and smarter!). - don Keeper of the CP/M System Disk | UUCP: {nosc ucsd crash ncr-sd}!pnet07!donm Archives for the Dino(saur)SIG | ARPA: simasd!pnet07!donm@nosc.mil - San Diego Computer Society - | INET: donm@pnet07.cts.com
ewen@actrix.co.nz (Ewen McNeill) (11/23/90)
In article <9011211738.AA04958@icf.llnl.gov.llnl.gov> rzh@ICF.LLNL.GOV (R. Hanscom) writes: > In <1990Nov20.221811.7383@techbook.com>, fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank > Zsitvay) writes: > > is it normal for the > > drive access led to stay lit even after the drive has been accessed?? > > I believe that this is normal behavior for a Kaypro. At least mine > does this. It worried me at first because I have another machine that > refuses to give me back the diskette when the led is on. The Kaypro > doesn't do this. One can remove the diskette if the little light is > off or on! It is definately normal behaviour on my Amstrad (CPC6128) -- but only the B drive. This has something to do with the minimal decoding internally in the machine (I never bothered to trace it down in the circuit diagram). I would say that in most computers it is safe to remove the disk when the little light is on, so long as you are _sure_ it is not being accessed (and, obviously, that there are no open files on it -- especially for writing). I usually listen to the motors (I have 5.25" drives) to tell when the disks are no longer needed (and of course keeping an eye on the program that is working). Of course, there are a few occasions when you want to remove the disk while it is being accessed..... :-) [Yet another comment about computers which follow instructions too literally!] -- Ewen McNeill. Email: ewen@actrix.gen.nz
floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson) (11/23/90)
In article <1990Nov22.200503.21516@simasd.uucp> donm@pnet07.cts.com (Don Maslin) writes: >floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson) writes: >> >>The Kaypro monitor ROM has no provision for timeout on the disks. >>Micro C's ROM and TurboROM both do. > >You are right - at least mostly. On the K10 with 81-302 ROM the drive light >and motor does timeout. Whether this is in ROM or O/S I don't know. >On the KP-2X (81-292), only the drive motor times out. The light remains on. I should have stated that what I know applies only to the '83 versions. Even the k-10 I had was an old one, so I don't know what was done in the later versions. If anyone is seriously interested in ROM's that handle DSQD disks I could dig up the source code I've got (somewhere) for a ROM that handles it. It will work with 4 drives using the converter that Mirco-C used to sell (still does?) or with just two drives. It has some built in routines to handle other formats, though I never used them. I can't remember what all else it did... Floyd -- Floyd L. Davidson floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu Salcha, AK 99714 paycheck connection to Alascom, Inc. When I speak for them, one of us will be *out* of business in a hurry.
wieland@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffrey J Wieland) (11/26/90)
In article <1990Nov22.110949.12852@hayes.ims.alaska.edu> floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson) writes: >In article <1990Nov22.030504.6649@simasd.uucp> donm@pnet07.cts.com (Don Maslin) writes: >> >> 11-21-90 >> >> On the later machines, at least, the drive light (and motor) stay >> on for several seconds after disk access and then turn off. I >> would assume that yours should do that also. > >The Kaypro monitor ROM has no provision for timeout on the disks. >Micro C's ROM and TurboROM both do. That's because the Kaypro ROM does a physical write every time BDOS is called to write a record. There is an option in Kaypro's configuration program (the Write Safe flag?) to turn this off, but Kaypro warns that this might cause some programs to trash files. This probably only happens with files that aren't closed before the program exits. >I installed a TurboROM on a K-10, and once had a copy of the first >ROM that Micro C sold. I don't recall that the BIOS needed to be >changed with either of them. Mind you I could be wrong on that, I you want to use a parallel printer with a TurboROM, you have to use the TurboBIOS. It appears that the ROM entry point was changed (at least for my Kaypro 2X, CP/M 2.2H). Besides, you will need the TurboBIOS to support hard drives, RAM drives, or 96 tpi floppy drives. Or to use the Multicopy Turboset program -- lets you use almost any 5.25" floppy disk format on your Kaypro without using memory resident software like Uniform -- it sets up the disk parameter tables in high memory to access other formats. Also allows you to use DosDisk for accessing MS-DOS floppies. There is also a version of DosDisk for the KayPlus ROM. MultiCopy and DosDisk are available from Plu*Perfect Systems. I don't have a current address for Plu*Perfect. DosDisk is also available from Sage MicroSystems East, 1435 Centre St., Newton Centre, MA 02159-2469, voice: 617-965-3552, modem: 617-965-7259 (password=DDT) (MABOS on PC-Pursuit). -- Jeff Wieland wieland@ecn.purdue.edu
fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) (11/30/90)
In article <1990Nov22.200503.21516@simasd.uucp> donm@pnet07.cts.com (Don Maslin) writes: >floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson) writes: >> >>The Kaypro monitor ROM has no provision for timeout on the disks. >>Micro C's ROM and TurboROM both do. > >You are right - at least mostly. On the K10 with 81-302 ROM the drive light >and motor does timeout. Whether this is in ROM or O/S I don't know. >On the KP-2X (81-292), only the drive motor times out. The light remains on. now i'm wondering - do i have a 2x or a 2/83?? on my machine, the motor times out (in fact, it stops right after the disk access, but the light stays on. this thing also has to be the fastest booting-from-the-floppy machine ever built. (tick tick tick A> ) when i open the machine, i'll let you know what numbers i find on the board and the roms. -- fzsitvay@techbook.COM - but don't quote me on that.... American Oil Company motto - Bend over, We'll pump!!!
wieland@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffrey J Wieland) (11/30/90)
In article <1990Nov29.234234.3270@techbook.com> fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes: > now i'm wondering - do i have a 2x or a 2/83?? on my machine, the motor >times out (in fact, it stops right after the disk access, but the light >stays on. this thing also has to be the fastest booting-from-the-floppy >machine ever built. (tick tick tick A> ) > > when i open the machine, i'll let you know what numbers i find on the >board and the roms. The quick way to tell whether you have an '83 or on '84 is to look at the back of the computer. '83's have one serial port, '84's have two (DB-25's, of course). '84's also have video attributes -- inverse, dim, underline, and blinking. They also can display block graphics, and have a fine line drawing character set available. The '83's can only do blinking video, and they have a Greek alternate character set. Of course, all of the Kaypro 10's had two serial ports and graphics. To tell them apart, you will need to open up the case to look at the motherboard. If the cable that goes the hard disk controller host adapter board attaches to the middle of the motherboard, its an '83. If it attaches at the edge by the disk drives, its an '84. They were several different machines that Kaypro called a 2 (or II): Early Kaypro II '83 - 2 SSDD drives, 2.5 MGHZ, no graphics Late Kaypro II '83 - 2 SSDD drives, 2.5 MGHZ, no graphics - Has Kaypro IV motherboard, so you can just plug DSDD drive to upgrade. Kaypro 2'84 - 2 SSDD drives, 4.0 MGHZ, graphics New 2 - 1 DSDD drive, 4.0 MGHZ, graphics Kaypro 2X - 2 DSDD drives, 4.0 MGHZ, graphics - Some of these have builtin real-time clock and 300 bps modem, like the 10 '84's When I bought mu Kaypro, I ordered a New 2, but it turned out that Kaypro wasn't making them anymore, so I would up buying a 2X instead. Mine came without the clock or modem. -- Jeff Wieland wieland@acn.purdue.edu
fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) (12/02/90)
In article <1990Nov30.143804.28107@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> wieland@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffrey J Wieland) writes: >In article <1990Nov29.234234.3270@techbook.com> fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes: >> now i'm wondering - do i have a 2x or a 2/83?? on my machine, the motor >>times out (in fact, it stops right after the disk access, but the light >>stays on. this thing also has to be the fastest booting-from-the-floppy >>machine ever built. (tick tick tick A> ) > >The quick way to tell whether you have an '83 or on '84 is to look >at the back of the computer. '83's have one serial port, '84's have >two (DB-25's, of course). '84's also have video attributes -- inverse, >dim, underline, and blinking. They also can display block graphics, and >have a fine line drawing character set available. The '83's can only do >blinking video, and they have a Greek alternate character set. ok, mine has one serial port, and no graphics or attributes. also, after formatting a double sided kaypro floppy on my AT with uniform, the kaypro claimed it was a single sided floppy, so apparently it has single sided drives. would i need to change the bios to add double sided drives?? (i'd like to put qd drives on it, or better yet, 1.2 meg AT floppies by faking the controller to think it's talking to an 8 inch drive, if that's possible. is there a rom available that would allow 8 inch drives to be connected to a kaypro?? also, what is needed to upgrade the video to the 84 standard?? i use vde as a text editor, and it need reverse video to show control characters. also, how do you tell if the machine has a IV motherboard??? if mine does, then i could probably get dsdd or qd drives to work in it. -- fzsitvay@techbook.COM - but don't quote me on that.... American Oil Company motto - Bend over, We'll pump!!!
donm@pnet07.cts.com (Don Maslin) (12/06/90)
fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes: > > ok, mine has one serial port, and no graphics or attributes. also, >after formatting a double sided kaypro floppy on my AT with uniform, >the kaypro claimed it was a single sided floppy, so apparently it has >single sided drives. would i need to change the bios to add double >sided drives?? ... Open the box and check the monitor ROM. If it is 81-232-A, you have a later II/83 which shares the same board with the 4/83 and DSDD should be no problem. If it is 81-149-C, I don't know. However, all three used the same CP/M 2.2F. > Keeper of the CP/M System Disk | UUCP: {nosc ucsd crash ncr-sd}!pnet07!donm Archives for the Dino(saur)SIG | ARPA: simasd!pnet07!donm@nosc.mil - San Diego Computer Society - | INET: donm@pnet07.cts.com
mwilson@crash.cts.com (Marc Wilson) (12/07/90)
In article <1990Dec2.050319.25685@techbook.com> fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes: >In article <1990Nov30.143804.28107@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> wieland@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffrey J Wieland) writes: >>In article <1990Nov29.234234.3270@techbook.com> fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes: >>> now i'm wondering - do i have a 2x or a 2/83?? on my machine, the motor >>>times out (in fact, it stops right after the disk access, but the light >>>stays on. this thing also has to be the fastest booting-from-the-floppy >>>machine ever built. (tick tick tick A> ) [stuff deleted] > ok, mine has one serial port, and no graphics or attributes. also, >after formatting a double sided kaypro floppy on my AT with uniform, >the kaypro claimed it was a single sided floppy, so apparently it has >single sided drives. You got it. >would i need to change the bios to add double >sided drives?? (i'd like to put qd drives on it, or better yet, 1.2 >meg AT floppies by faking the controller to think it's talking to >an 8 inch drive, if that's possible. is there a rom available that >would allow 8 inch drives to be connected to a kaypro?? No, you don't need to change the BIOS, but you DO need to: a) add double sided drives b) add one jumper to enable the side select line on the interface The Kaypro as sold cannot deal with 8" drives. The data transfer rate over the interface is twice as fast as your 5" drives. This goes for the AT drives, too. This is why you need a new controller when you add a 1.2 or 1.44 Mb drive to a PC. > also, what is needed to upgrade the video to the 84 standard?? >i use vde as a text editor, and it need reverse video to show >control characters. You don't upgrade it. > also, how do you tell if the machine has a IV motherboard??? if >mine does, then i could probably get dsdd or qd drives to work >in it. You've already done the test. You only have 1 serial port, therefore you have an '83 series machine. Since it's only got SSDD drives, probabilities are REAL high that you do, indeed, have a 2-83 motherboard. To tell for sure, look closely at your motherboard. The original 2-83 had motherboard 81-110. The 4-83 had motheboard 81-240. They are basically the same motherboard except for some jumpers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Marc Wilson ARPA: ...!crash!mwilson@nosc.mil ...!crash!pnet01!pro-sol!mwilson@nosc.mil UUCP: [ cbosgd | hp-sdd!hplabs | sdcsvax | nosc ]!crash!mwilson INET: mwilson@crash.CTS.COM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Marc Wilson ARPA: ...!crash!mwilson@nosc.mil ...!crash!pnet01!pro-sol!mwilson@nosc.mil UUCP: [ cbosgd | hp-sdd!hplabs | sdcsvax | nosc ]!crash!mwilson INET: mwilson@crash.CTS.COM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~