mdk@cblpf.UUCP (11/20/87)
Let's try to raise a little thought provoking discussion on one of our most popular subjects: that little marvel called the Color Computer. What do you feel is the future of the Color Computer? What improvements in design, peripherals, software will be available in the next ten years? How will Tandy react to these improvments in marketing, software development, etc.? What would *you* like to see in the way of improvement of the Coco? I'd like to start the ball rolling by stating that Tandy will finally realize what a powerful tool the Coco is and actively market it. With the use of the OS9 operating system, more software developers will enter the market. We should see a proliferation of desktop publishing and graphics programs. Tandy might even change the disk controller to access 40 and 80 track drives, include a real-time clock, and a parallel interface. With improvements in the CPU, the Coco will be able to access 1 MB of memory on the motherboard. With the higher memory access, we can expect to see better graphics capabilities, and higher clock speeds. I would like to be able to access some MS-DOS applications (Did I actually say that dirty word???:-):-)), so I would like to see some utility that would allow the Coco to use MS-DOS programs. I DO NOT want the Coco to go to an MS-DOS format. I like OS9, despite the problems. One of the best things Tandy could do would be to change the design of that stupid Multipak Interface. They could rotate the thing 90 degrees so the paks plug into the back instead of sticking up and letting the cables sprawl all over my desk. Well, I've rambled enough. What does the rest of the net think? Mike King ..!cbosgd!cblpf!mdk -- ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v No matter what the anticipated result, there will always be someone eager to (a) misinterpret it, (b) fake it, or (c) believe it happened according to his own pet theory. -Finagle's Second Law
ww0n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Walter Lloyd Wimer, III) (11/21/87)
> From: mdk@cblpf.ATT.COM (x5693) > Subject: Future of Coco > > Let's try to raise a little thought provoking discussion on one of our most > popular subjects: that little marvel called the Color Computer. > > What do you feel is the future of the Color Computer? What improvements in > design, peripherals, software will be available in the next ten years? I like the CoCo as much as the next guy, but realistically-speaking I'm not so sure it will still be around in *ten* years. > How will Tandy react to these improvments in marketing, software > development, etc.? What would *you* like to see in the way of improvement > of the Coco? > > I'd like to start the ball rolling by stating that Tandy will finally > realize what a powerful tool the Coco is and actively market it. I doubt it. > With the use of the OS9 operating system, more software developers will > enter the market. We should see a proliferation of desktop publishing > and graphics programs. > Tandy might even change the disk controller to access 40 and 80 > track drives, include a real-time clock, and a parallel interface. According to the new "Christmas Sale and Gift Catalog" the FD-502 floppy disk drive and controller is a 40-track, double-sided system. > With improvements in the CPU, the Coco will be able to access 1 MB of > memory on the motherboard. Now here's the one thing that might save the CoCo. If it's still around in ten years, I project that it will have a 68000-family processor along with a 6809 for I/O processing and compatibility with older models. We'll be running OS-9/68000 which will have improved also. Actually, from an assembly-language programmmer's view, I like the 6809 more than the 68000. But you can't argue against the 68000's comparative speed. > With the higher memory access, we can expect to see better graphics > capabilities, and higher clock speeds. (FYI: The clock speed is a design issue concerning the processor and memory speed. It has little or nothing to do with the quantity of memory.) > I would like to be able to access some MS-DOS applications (Did I > actually say that dirty word???:-):-)), so I would like to see some > utility that would allow the Coco to use MS-DOS programs. I DO NOT > want the Coco to go to an MS-DOS format. I like OS9, despite the problems. This is virtually impossible. To run any arbitrary MS-DOS application would require making the CoCo as IBM-compatible as possible -- it would have to have an Intel 8086-family processor (yuck!) and other associated hardware. It would be far better (and easier) to port high-level language source code for an MS-DOS application to OS-9. Of course, even this could be messy. I think OS-9 will continue to improve as long as Microware is making a profit. If people see that there is a market in developing sophisticated applications for OS-9, then the applications will be developed. Throw away your single-tasking MS-DOS junk. :-) :-) > One of the best things Tandy could do would be to change the design of > that stupid Multipak Interface. They could rotate the thing 90 degrees > so the paks plug into the back instead of sticking up and letting the > cables sprawl all over my desk. This sounds like a good idea. > > Well, I've rambled enough. What does the rest of the net think? > > > Mike King So have I. Now you all know what *I* think, for whatever it's worth. . . Walt Wimer Carnegie Mellon University Internet: ww0n+@andrew.cmu.edu Bitnet: ww0n+%andrew.cmu.edu@cmccvb UUCP: ...!psuvax1!andrew.cmu.edu!ww0n+
jejones@mcrware.UUCP (James Jones) (11/22/87)
---------------------------- Some of the things Mike King mentions can be done now. (To avoid all uncertainty--all that follows are my personal opinions, which have nothing to do with any opinion held by any organization. Indeed, I know nothing of any opinion held by any organization.) The stock floppy device driver in OS-9/6809 Level II for the CoCo 3 looks at the device descriptors, so that you can use 80 track drives. (I use them myself on Imogene III [if Jerry Pournelle can name his computers, then so can I :-]. The trick is getting the first bootable 80-track disk.) The CoCo's I/O deficiencies are being made up for by third-party sources. Sardis Technologies, and according to a RAINBOW article, soon Disto, now make reasonable floppy disk controllers. Real-time clocks and parallel ports can be had from various sources, as can serial ports that aren't Henny Youngman fodder. I doubt that I would think it worth extending the 6809 the way whatever the heck that MPU in the Apple IIgs is an extended 6502. (I *do*, though, wish that I could run one of those Hitachi 3MHz 6809s at 3MHz in my CoCo.) I'd either go to a 680x0 (or maybe *add* a 680x0) or improve the GIME. By "improve" I would mean allow for more than 512K, use a reasonable unit of allocation as opposed to 8K, and allow more bits per RGB component. I wouldn't *mind* more palette registers, but if I had to choose, I'd want more colors to pick my 16 from. (Display a few GIF files and you'll see what I mean.) Physically, I agree with you--the sooner the MPI goes, the more I'll like it. There are third-party boxes like Hemphill's or the QT CoCo, but the problem with them is that I might want to use something like, say, a Speech Systems MIDI port (if they'd just write OS-9-based software for it)--can I plug that into a QT CoCo? 462DUMHOUmpl
kottke@puff.wisc.edu (Rich Kottke) (11/23/87)
In article <821@cblpf.ATT.COM> mdk@cblpf.ATT.COM (Mike King) writes: > > >What do you feel is the future of the Color Computer? What improvements in >design, peripherals, software will be available in the next ten years? How >will Tandy react to these improvments in marketing, software development, etc.? >What would *you* like to see in the way of improvement of the Coco? ... >programs. Tandy might even change the disk controller to access 40 and 80 >track drives, include a real-time clock, and a parallel interface. With >improvements in the CPU, the Coco will be able to access 1 MB of memory on >the motherboard. With the higher memory access, we can expect to see >better graphics capabilities, and higher clock speeds. Ok, I've been reading this group long enough so I guess it's time to throw in my $.02 worth. I have several proposed improvements that could extend the COCO line indefinitly: 1) Add an external keyboard with a long (8') curled cord. I have been trying to find time to do this with my system; my idea is to plug it into the cassette port and use the cassette port as another bit-banger port (this wouldn't be so bad because the keyboard will not respond until you ASK it to, so the port isn't really running asynchronously). Think of the problems this would solve! The COCO/MULTIPACK/CABLE_SNARL mess could be pushed out of sight and all you would see on your desk would be a stylish keyboard and a monitor. I bought a surplus ADAM (tm) keyboard that has some kind of serial interface, but I guess I will probably have to rip it out and make my own. 2) Make the multipack thing the RIGHT way (the way I made mine :-) ). Make a program-pack sized interface board that contains only some line drivers and line receivers. Then use a 5' twisted pair ribbon cable to transmit these signals to the multipack; everthing else (the decoding circuit, selector switch etc.) is in the multipack box, which now can be out of sight, along with all of the things you plug into it and your cable snarl. I made mine with 4 slots but I have provided for expansion to 8 slots. 3) Combination of 1) and 2) : put the COCO and a slot bay inside of a PC-clone box. You could do this yourself, but maybe Tandy could do it with the COCO-4. 4) Now we come to what I want to see in the COCO-4: a box as above, with the floppy controller on the motherboard. Also on the motherboard should be a parallel printer interface and an ACIA (these chips cost $3.00 apiece and there is room in the memory map for them. Why weren't they in the COCO-3?) A better MMU would also be needed; one that has smaller pages and can use 2 or 4 meg would be nice. Of course it would have to also be GIME compatible :-). Maybe better graphics, too. 5) For the COCO-5, how about a 68020 coprocessor with 10 meg of zero wait state RAM? ( dream dream dream ...) >I would like to be >able to access some MS-DOS applications (Did I actually say that dirty >word???:-):-)), so I would like to see some utility that would allow the >Coco to use MS-DOS programs. I DO NOT want the Coco to go to an MS-DOS >format. Ooooh! Ick! It would be better if Tandy promoted the COCO better and induced the companies that write all of those MSH*T-DOS applications to write versions for OS-9. I have seen quite a few of these applications programs; are you really sure you want them? The worst ones bury you in a sea of menus and options and take > 380K in the bargain. (Perhaps they were written in Ada (tm) :-] ). Well that's all I have to say on this subject; I hope we can raise the traffic level on this newsgroup and get some good info flowing. -Rich ______________________________________________________________________________ "It works better when it's plugged in, Rich" - Larry Whitney _____________________________________________________________________________
pete@wlbr.EATON.COM (Pete Lyall) (11/23/87)
JJ (and all)
Just as an aside, there is software support for the Speech Systems'
MIDI Pak under OS9. A fellow name Richard Johnson wrote CZpatch,
CZprint, and CZbank. They are essentially patch librarian, editor, and
printer tools for use with the Casio CZ-101/1000/3000/5000 family.
These are 'shareware' items, and are available in the coco forum on
CIS. They also work very well - I use 'em with a cocoII that is
dedicated to MIDI (also runs Lyra & Coco Midi 2 - a couple of the last
reasons to run RS-DOS 8^}).
--
Pete Lyall (OS9 Users Group V.P.) Eaton Corporation (818)-706-5693
Compuserve: 76703,4230 (OS9 Sysop) OS9 (home): (805)-985-0632 (24hr./1200 baud)
Usenet: {trwrb, scgvaxd, ihnp4, voder, vortex}!wlbr!petepete@wlbr.EATON.COM (Pete Lyall) (11/24/87)
Re: using the ADAM keyboard with coco.. a fellow named Bill Brady
(author of 'The WIZ' terminal package) tried this, and became dismayed
my compexities and decode anomalies. I believe he eventually got it
working, but it was slooww and he had to give up the polling of the
joystick/mouse fire buttons.
Re: a remote IBM keyboard .. forget the name..wait.. Bob Puppo has
created an allegedly beautiful implementation of this, and will be
marketing it through OWLWARE shortly for $115 with keyboard, and less
for just the interface. Call OWLWARE for details.
Re: your multipak expansion/relocation trick - neat! Care to share
details so that the rest of us can hide that nasty pack behind the
coco?
--
Pete Lyall (OS9 Users Group V.P.) Eaton Corporation (818)-706-5693
Compuserve: 76703,4230 (OS9 Sysop) OS9 (home): (805)-985-0632 (24hr./1200 baud)
Usenet: {trwrb, scgvaxd, ihnp4, voder, vortex}!wlbr!petekoonce@oreo (tim koonce) (11/25/87)
I had heard a rumor about a PC-style keyboard interface... I'll write OwlWare about it... As for other stuff... Has anyone around here actually stuffed a '3 into a PC-style case?? I'd like to do this, but I'm not sure exactly how to go about it. I did pick up a $20 MPI recently, so I've got an extra one to hack one, if need be. I figure it would be a nice thing, especially when I finally get a hard drive, to have computer/MPI/floppies/hard drive all in one case. Anyone have any ideas about a "good" way to go about this? I'm not real big on Major hardware hacks (i.e. building stuff from scratch), but I am handy with a soldering iron, and am not afraid of more minor mods. Tim +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |ARPA: koonce@bosco.berkeley.edu | | |Delphi: TIMKOONCE CIS:72276,1135 | | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
V3R@PSUVMA.BITNET (Vic Ricker) (11/25/87)
I'd like to see a new sound synthesizer. The speech sound cartridge is
terrible! I'd also like to have more colors. 64 was great until I realized
that even the old ATARI computers have more than that! I'd like to see some
kind of sprites and hardware text windows over the graphics screen and 100
tetrabytes of ram and ................
bill@trotter.usma.edu (Bill Gunshannon) (11/30/87)
In article <1299@puff.wisc.edu>, kottke@puff.wisc.edu (Rich Kottke) writes: > > 5) For the COCO-5, how about a 68020 coprocessor with 10 meg of zero wait > state RAM? > ( dream dream dream ...) > Before you get your hopes up just look at TANDY today. They have had a 68000 box for a couple of years now. Never had OS9/68K and my understanding is although there was development done on things like 68020 processor boards for it, the final decision is to go with the PC clone market and so you will not see the Model 16/Model 6000 after this year. This has unfortunately put some of us in rather a bind as we now have these machines and soon will have no way to get them fixed when they break. Anybody out there got a Model 16 to sell for parts, real cheap. :-( My guess is that the COCO will go the same way. It may get an extra year but eventually it will also die of not being PC compatable. Almost makes you want to cry..... bill gunshannon UUCP: {philabs}\ US SNAIL: Martin Marietta Data Systems {phri } >!trotter.usma.edu!bill USMA, Bldg 600, Room 26 {sunybcs}/ West Point, NY 10996 RADIO: KB3YV PHONE: WORK (914)446-7747 AX.25: KB3YV @ K3RLI PHONE: HOME (914)565-5256
gmark@ihlpf.UUCP (12/03/87)
In article <1299@puff.wisc.edu>, kottke@puff.wisc.edu (Rich Kottke) writes: > COCO line indefinitly: > > 1) Add an external keyboard with a long (8') curled cord. I have been trying to > find time to do this with my system; my idea is to plug it into the cassette > port and use the cassette port as another bit-banger port (this wouldn't be > so bad because the keyboard will not respond until you ASK it to, so the > port isn't really running asynchronously). > Think of the problems this would solve! The COCO/MULTIPACK/CABLE_SNARL > mess could be pushed out of sight and all you would see on your desk would > be a stylish keyboard and a monitor. I bought a surplus ADAM (tm) keyboard > that has some kind of serial interface, but I guess I will probably have to To: ihnp4!homxb!mtuxo!mtune!rutgers!rochester!bbn!husc6!uwvax!puff!kottke Subject: Re: Future of Coco References: <821@cblpf.ATT.COM> <1299@puff.wisc.edu> Acually, guy, the Adam keyboard is not serial at all, and you CAN take off the back of the sucker and do some real cannibalization to redo the switch matrix. That is, the pattern formed by the SPST switches that make up that keyboard will not map into that of the COCO as is. Better yet (but still a pain), get one of the Switchcraft keyboards, from Jameco, or some such surplus outfit, like I did, for about 10 bucks. You've seen these keyboards. Similar ones are made by Switchcraft, I believe, for the HP26xx, ADMs, etc.. You take the chart from the COCO tech manual as a guide to wire the bare pins together in the correct pattern and simply add a long cable. I ended up needing 15-conductor, made a snappy aluminum box for the thing, soldered the end to a 15-pin connector, mounted a matching connector very inconspicuously on the side of the COCO box, and wired it in parallel to the connector for the keyboard inside the COCO. Works great and looks great too. I also used some of the extra keys on the new keyboard to provide more conveniently-located redundant keys for myself. For instance, I put an extra backspace key near my left little finger, put the cursor arrow keys together, and put the OS-9 control key where I'm used to seeing the control key on UNIX boxes. Made an extension for the Multi-Pack using a ribbon cable, too. Lots of tedious soldering, but simple otherwise to hack together and (perish the thought) fix. G. Mark (helpful) Stewart ATT-BTL Naperville, ix1G-266 979-0914 ixlpq!gms
gmark@ihlpf.UUCP (12/03/87)
From postnews Thu Dec 3 12:36:24 1987 > be a stylish keyboard and a monitor. I bought a surplus ADAM (tm) keyboard > that has some kind of serial interface, but I guess I will probably have to > rip it out and make my own. To: ihnp4!homxb!mtuxo!mtune!rutgers!rochester!bbn!husc6!uwvax!puff!kottke Subject: Re: Future of Coco References: <821@cblpf.ATT.COM> <1299@puff.wisc.edu> Oops. I got an ADAM Keyboard, and no, it's not serial, but I guess yours has the driver chips and such. Anyway, I think if you took off the stuff, you could use the keyboard as I suggested. It seems pretty nice, far superior to the machine it was supplied with, (hence, the reason we have it cheap). As far as the cabling goes, the 15 conductor I have is pretty thin (~3/16" or less), and I'm sure that since the sheathing it has is pretty stiff even when the wire's removed, it could be even thinner and more flexible. If you give a call to several electronics supply places, I'll bet someone could provide a nice, flexible, 15 conductor (or more) cable. If you're bent on serial, you could use the RS232 & a terminal. Well, these are quick work-arounds. If the goal, however, is to have a fun project, go to it. Actually, I found making a case that looked like it was purchased rather than hacked together from the Radio Shack parts I actually used was by far the biggest job, what with painting, bending, using the nibbler, etc.. G. Mark (helpful) Stewart ATT-BTL Naperville, ix1G-266 979-0914 ixlpq!gms