japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) (04/23/89)
Tandy's latest motto has been developed to give the illusion that the their computer products are the best value on the market... but is this truth in advertising or just marketing hype... Let us examine Tandy's products in comparison to other vendors to determine if: "Is there really no better value?" First let us look at the Tandy 1000 series, the latest incarnation being the 1000 SL and TL computers. (These prices are based on the price at the CSM Bookstore and thus represent an educational pricing... this is done SINCE I have no idea what the pricing for these computers is outside of the educational market and most Usenet readers are academics anyway!) For aproximently $900 the Tandy SL 8088 - 8 Mhz. 1 5 1/4" 360K floppy CGA graphics (ok... expanded CGA... whoopie) Parallel / Serial ports (Tandy Standard) 384K Ram 3.2 (?) Dos IN ROM DeskMate (which probably should count against it!) IN ROM To make this a usable computer one needs: CM-11 CGA Monitor - $399 upgade to 640K - $189 20 Meg HardDisk - $599 Total System: ~ $2100 Compare this with: IBM PS/2 model 30 package: 8086 - 8 Mhz (8086 has improved throughput over 8088) VGA!!! Analog Color Monitor Parallel / Serial ports (industry standard) 640K Ram 1 3 1/2" 720K floppy 20 Meg Internal HD Dos 4.01 MS Windows MS Works (Not a whole lot better than Deskcrate but at least the communications work with our VAX!) Cost: $1800 Gee... there goes Tandy's value right out the window! Why........????? Tandy's peripherals are the most expensive in the industry... they sell their computers at Kmart prices (and with Kmart quality I might add) and sell their peripherals like they were Apple! Lets look at another comparison: Tandy 1000 TL vs. Model 30/286 While an equivelent system is impossible just on the basis of Tandy's CGA vs. IBM's VGA the cost of the 286 package vs. Tandy is roughly the same $2100 (assuming a 20 meg. HD is added to the Tandy)... But with the IBM you get Windows, Word, and Excel... and VGA graphics... With the Tandy you get DeskMate... and Tandy's 16 color graphics for games! need I say more! The question is: Why would anyone but a fool buy Tandy, seeing as how there are so many better values? And this is coming from a person who 4 years ago was a Tandy evangelist! Joe Applegate President - Colorado Color Computer Club President - Denver Metro MSDOS Users Group PC Coordinator - Colorado School of Mines, Golden, CO
ugkamins@sunybcs.uucp (John Kaminski) (04/23/89)
In article <1454@csm9a.UUCP> japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes:
=>Tandy's latest motto has been developed to give the illusion that the
=>their computer products are the best value on the market... but is this
=>truth in advertising or just marketing hype... Let us examine Tandy's
=>products in comparison to other vendors to determine if:
=>
=> "Is there really no better value?"
=>
=>First let us look at the Tandy 1000 series, the latest incarnation being the
=>1000 SL and TL computers.
=>
=>(These prices are based on the price at the CSM Bookstore and thus represent
=>an educational pricing... this is done SINCE I have no idea what the pricing
=>for these computers is outside of the educational market and most Usenet
=>readers are academics anyway!)
=>
=>For aproximently $900 the Tandy SL
=>8088 - 8 Mhz.
Try again. 8086
=>1 5 1/4" 360K floppy
=>CGA graphics (ok... expanded CGA... whoopie)
It's not Tandy's fault you choose not to use the extended capabilities.
=>Parallel / Serial ports (Tandy Standard)
=>384K Ram
=>3.2 (?) Dos IN ROM
Try again. 3.30
=>DeskMate (which probably should count against it!) IN ROM
Why against it? Clearly your subjective opinion.
=>
uh......yeah???? Don't choose to include much of the other stuff either.
owell...
=>To make this a usable computer one needs:
=>CM-11 CGA Monitor - $399
Oh? Well, again, your subjectiveness. Your "useable" is another man's "souped
up." To me, useable is a VM-4 or -5, OK is a CM-5, and real nice is CM-11
=>upgade to 640K - $189
Hey, only if you need to. Not everyone needs a full 640K so why make them
pay for it all up front? Flexibility. More subjectiveness.
=>20 Meg HardDisk - $599
nice, but not to make it useable. Subjectiveness again.
=>
=>Total System: ~ $2100
=>
=>Compare this with:
=>IBM PS/2 model 30 package:
Can't say as this would come up to the full functionality of the SL, as you
seem to have personally omitted the other capabilities (sound, setup in
EEPROM, OS in ROM with option to boot from disk, and more)
=>8086 - 8 Mhz (8086 has improved throughput over 8088)
=>VGA!!!
Yeah? For which you need a special monitor. Well, I will submit that this
is becoming more the standard, just as 3.5" floppy. But there still are many,
many CGA programs out there, as well as CGA programs. Again, why make 'em
pay up front for something they may never need? Why do you need VGA for your
spreadsheet, for example?
=>Analog Color Monitor
=>Parallel / Serial ports (industry standard)
=>640K Ram
=>1 3 1/2" 720K floppy
=>20 Meg Internal HD
=>Dos 4.01
=>MS Windows
=>MS Works (Not a whole lot better than Deskcrate but at least the communications
=> work with our VAX!)
Oh? I connect to UBVMSA thru UBVMSD just fine with DeskMate Telecom.
=>
=>Cost: $1800
Well......you might want to add on stuff like an A/D + D/A board, etc.
=>
=>Gee... there goes Tandy's value right out the window!
I'm not so sure. How about support? Your IBM friends "hold the customer's
hand" like Tandy does every day? They have the same number of places where
you can get 'em and get 'em fixed when necessary? I regret that you deal
only with the bad ones of the Tandy bunch, but there are probably just as
many if not more people that are twice as good as the ones you happen to deal
with. Are your IBM cronies perfect? A bit super-human perhaps? Totally
error free?
=>
=>Why........?????
=>Tandy's peripherals are the most expensive in the industry... they sell their
=>computers at Kmart prices (and with Kmart quality I might add) and sell their
KMart must be rather quality conscience then.
=>peripherals like they were Apple!
=>
=>Lets look at another comparison:
=>
=>Tandy 1000 TL vs. Model 30/286
=>
=>While an equivelent system is impossible just on the basis of Tandy's CGA vs.
=>IBM's VGA the cost of the 286 package vs. Tandy is roughly the same $2100
=>(assuming a 20 meg. HD is added to the Tandy)...
=>But with the IBM you get Windows, Word, and Excel... and VGA graphics...
=>With the Tandy you get DeskMate... and Tandy's 16 color graphics for games!
=>need I say more!
Yeah, to me, plenty more.
=>
=>The question is:
=>
=>Why would anyone but a fool buy Tandy, seeing as how there are so many better
=>values?
Well, as someone else on the net pointed out (indirectly I suppose), you are
living in a country of fools, cuz Tandy is #1 in the home market
=>
=>And this is coming from a person who 4 years ago was a Tandy evangelist!
=>
OWELL, just because of 1 misguided soul who was misinformed about compatibility.
=>Joe Applegate
=>President - Colorado Color Computer Club
=>President - Denver Metro MSDOS Users Group
=>PC Coordinator - Colorado School of Mines, Golden, CO
You still seem rather steamed that you can't have a current computer by adding
to your old one. PErhaps this was misinformation on the part of the original
salespeople. Look, you want the ultimate in your computer, why don't you
go hand wirewrap your own Cray compatible and quit flaming Tandy? And while
you're at it, take your model T and upgrade it to a Lotus or Porsche.cs3b3aj@maccs.McMaster.CA (Three More Exams) (04/24/89)
Well, I have the 1989 Radio Shack "Technology Book" (hereinafter to be referred to as the catalog) to give the non-educational prices ... these are in Canadian dollars, so you might want to tweak the numbers a little to get them into US funds if you're south of the border. Well, here goes ... In article <1454@csm9a.UUCP> japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: >For aproximently $900 the Tandy SL $1599.00 Cdn >8088 - 8 Mhz. Nope ... it's an 8086 (unless the catalog is a typo ... but "8086" appears in 3 places on the page) >1 5 1/4" 360K floppy >CGA graphics (ok... expanded CGA... whoopie) Herc and CGA compatible, with CGA enhancements ... but how many programs support those enhancements? >Parallel / Serial ports (Tandy Standard) >384K Ram This is laughable >3.2 (?) Dos IN ROM 3.3 >DeskMate (which probably should count against it!) IN ROM >To make this a usable computer one needs: >CM-11 CGA Monitor - $399 $699 Cdn or CM-5, $499 Cdn or VM-5 monochrome $249 Cdn Of course, it's debatable whether a computer with a CGA is actually usable :-) >upgade to 640K - $189 $??? ... they don't list this in the catalog >20 Meg HardDisk - $599 Hard disk card - $899 Cdn >Total System: ~ $2100 $3200 Cdn + memory upgrade >Compare this with: >IBM PS/2 model 30 package: >8086 - 8 Mhz (8086 has improved throughput over 8088) same throughput as 1000SL, unless Tandy screwed the design up [ ... feature list which is better than Tandy's deleted ... ] >Cost: $1800 >Gee... there goes Tandy's value right out the window! Yeah ... you know you're charging far too much when IBM's cheaper than you are. I think I could get a 10 MHz 8088 clone with the same features as the Tandy for under $2000 Cdn ... my 12 MHz AT clone with 44M 25 ms hard drive, Herc clone, monitor, 640K, 1.2M drive, 2 parallel, 1 serial, 1 game only cost me $2400 Cdn! >Tandy 1000 TL vs. Model 30/286 > >While an equivelent system is impossible just on the basis of Tandy's CGA vs. >IBM's VGA the cost of the 286 package vs. Tandy is roughly the same $2100 >(assuming a 20 meg. HD is added to the Tandy)... >But with the IBM you get Windows, Word, and Excel... and VGA graphics... >With the Tandy you get DeskMate... and Tandy's 16 color graphics for games! >need I say more! 1000 TL: 80286 8 MHz, 640K, DOS 3.3 in ROM, 3-1/2" 720K, 101-key keyboard, same enhanced CGA, hi-res RGBI monitor, DeskMate (whoopee), 20M hard card costs $3600 Cdn. By the way, it looks to me like they include 128K of video memory in that 640K, so it's really only a 512K machine. But don't forget one very important feature on the 1000TL: it comes with a built-in version of Hangman. That's gotta be worth at least $12.99! :-) Has Tandy cleared up the compatibility problems they used to have a few years ago? And how about their modem prices - $199.95 Cdn for a 1200 baud half-card modem? Or their Logitech serial mouse for 169.95 Cdn (these cost around $100 in the store where I bought my clone) I can see why someone might want to buy a name brand computer (because you figure they'll be there if the thing breaks, and also some people don't have faith in the quality or legality of clones), but why Tandy would price their systems above IBM's is beyond me, too. -- ====================================================================== ! Stephen M. Dunn, cs3b3aj@maccs.McMaster.CA ! DISCLAIMER: ! ! I always wanted to be a lumberjack! - M.P. ! I'm only an undergrad ! ======================================================================
ahaley@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Alexander Haley) (04/24/89)
I am a student at a school that received a Sloan/IBM grant and now have some PS/2 model 30/286's, a couple model 70's, a personal pageprinter and a scanner. I must say that I used to dislike IBM for their high prices, idiotic setups for their pc's and other things too numerous to list. It was only a dislike for personal reasons, if I was given one, I would not have complained. This has all changed. Now, I would refuse anything that has the IBM name on it. Everthing that follows is from persomal experience while trying to set up this lab we have for these pc's, all of my information has been gleaned from the shoddy uninformative manuals (a VERY time consuming process), so it is most likely wrong since those manuals are from IBM. What good is a 286 that you can only put one floppy drive into and only 2 or 3 expansion slots? I mean once you get your token ring adapter card, modem and extra memory card in there you have no room for any more of the gizmos that they have for you. I mean you can't even add a game port now... Tandy has two joystick inputs standard. They sre also extremely slow!! The model 30/286's have 20 meg hard drives standard, i think. These drives must have an access tim of about 100 ms, I mean slow!! The machines are also slow. The model 70's I've been told are 16 MHz. My machine is a 286 16 MHz and beat the 70's by 2 points on many of the standard benchmarks. Now, the pageprinter. It is the slowest most ugly peice of crap we have sitting in that room right now. It takes about 45 sec. to process a graph from IBM's own Grapher that runs under windows and then the ppaper seems to go through it in slo-motion. For some reason, if you have anything too complicated graphics-wise, it will barff on you. This means that if you have a graph that has 200 points that are scattered with a line connecting all of them, it will not print, you are stuck with an image on your screen that you can do nothing with. The scanner. i'm not sure, we did not receive a cable that goes with it as far as i can tell, unless this cable is the one and in that case, we need an expansion card which we do not have. Also, IBM did not want us to be the first to open any of there things up. The sent this dork from Entre computers who could not figure out why one of the model 70's would not boot with a card that IBM forgot to send the options disk with, so we did not have the drivers installed. This guy did not know what he was doing, and then when i remarked that I thought IBM asked too much for their stuff that you could do nothing with, he started jumping all over me and then basically agreed to what I said, but added that IBM gives "real" support where these mail-order companies will sell you your computer and then when you call with a problem will say (and I quote him) "Fuck off." Well, this has not been my experience. Also, I much prefer talking to someone on the phone who knows what they are doing rather than alling some stupid receptionist and waiting two days for someone who really doesn't know more about adjusting cards and typing things into a computer any better than I do come out and tell me I needed to switch this jumper. Or, even worse, this guy could come out and do something, leave and not me what the problem is thinking that I am some stupid dork. Well, I would be if I bought an IBM. Their documentation. It is worse having IBM documentation than having no doccumentation at all. The manuals spend 200 pages just confusing you, because they give you so little information. When I asked a representative of IBM why users were given so little info. he told me that they did not want to confuse their costumers too much with extraneous info. Now, maybe that is a good idea to keep out of the main sections, but it should be in their somewhere, easily locatable. I still have not found anywhere in the DOS 4.01 manual how this use of the extra 384 K can be done and when it is usable. BTW if anyones knows, post or email. thanks. ok, now that I have slammed on IBM from a personal level, I wwill say that they try to support their products. For a big company which did not want to mess with it and just make a call and let them worry about it, that's great let tham have it, but with all of the other choices out there, Tandy being one of them, a normal everyday Joe or a sophisticated college, CS major would have to be totally stupid and inane to purchase IBM stuff for personal use. Falmes are welcome. I need to be informed, since IBM can't do it adequately all by themselves. Alex Haley
ahaley@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Alexander Haley) (04/24/89)
my signature was not included to that last one, sorry. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ahaley@hmcvax.bitnet | Why didn't I ITR? It would have been easier ahaley@jarthur.claremont.edu | and would have saved my relationship with or ahaley@muddcs.claremont.edu | my parents. (it would have been cheaper) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
bevans@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Brian Evans) (04/24/89)
Alex, So should I transfer my TL down to the Frosh Lab? I'm not looking forward having to consult next year if we are having so many problems with the PS/2 lab already. -- Brian Evans "In any formula, constants (especially bevans@hmcvax.bitnet those obtained from engineering bevans@jarthur.claremont.edu textbooks) are to be treated as or !uunet!jarthur!bevans variables."
psrc@pegasus.ATT.COM (Paul S. R. Chisholm) (04/24/89)
In article <1454@csm9a.UUCP>, japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: > (These prices are based on the price at the CSM Bookstore and thus represent > an educational pricing... this is done SINCE I have no idea what the pricing > for these computers is outside of the educational market and most Usenet > readers are academics anyway!) Speak for yourself, Joe.-) Besides, what you're saying is that IBM offers a much steeper educational discount for the package you're interested in. > Tandy SL > CGA graphics (ok... expanded CGA... whoopie) >... > IBM PS/2 model 30 package: > VGA!!! > Analog Color Monitor Nope. The PS/2-30 has MCGA: 320x200x256 colors (same resolution as Tandy expanded CGA, but with a better palette), 640x480x2 colors, and CGA modes. Yes, the text modes have fairly nice characters (*much* nicer than a CGA monitor can display in only 640x200). You can add a VGA card and use it with the PS/2-30's monitor. > Joe Applegate Paul S. R. Chisholm, AT&T Bell Laboratories att!pegasus!psrc, psrc@pegasus.att.com, AT&T Mail !psrchisholm I'm not speaking for the company, I'm just speaking my mind.
mark@motcsd.UUCP (Mark Jeghers) (04/24/89)
In article <1454@csm9a.UUCP> japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: >Tandy's latest motto has been developed to give the illusion that the >their computer products are the best value on the market... but is this > "Is there really no better value?" >For aproximently $900 the Tandy SL [required add-ons deleted] >Total System: ~ $2100 > >Compare this with: [PS/2 system description deleted] >Cost: $1800 >Tandy's peripherals are the most expensive in the industry... they sell their >computers at Kmart prices (and with Kmart quality I might add) and sell their >peripherals like they were Apple! >need I say more! >Why would anyone but a fool buy Tandy, seeing as how there are so many better >values? Look, damnit, if Bill Bixby says they're "clearly superior", then that GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME! You better stop bashing Tandy or the Incredible Hulk is gonna smash your front door down! :-) Mark Jeghers Motorola Computer Systems
uhclem@trsvax.UUCP (04/24/89)
B>First let us look at the Tandy 1000 series, the latest incarnation being the B>1000 SL and TL computers. You know, I am getting tired of having to do this, but here goes... B>For aproximently $900 the Tandy SL Uh, this is the LIST price for just the computer. If this is the price your educational institution is offering, they must have a kick-back to the football program or something. Last flyer I saw had the "normal-people" price at $699.... B>8088 - 8 Mhz. Wrong. The SL uses an 8086, with 16 bit data paths throughout, including in video memory. And it is 8MHz. B>1 5 1/4" 360K floppy True, expandable to 2 drives. Second may be 5.25 or 3.5. You can buy the second drive from anybody, and get it as cheap as $80. You really want a 3.5" drive? More capacity, but slower access than a 5.25". B>CGA graphics (ok... expanded CGA... whoopie) Also MDA and Hercules in addition to enhanced CGA with 640x200x16 Will your true-blue IBM VGA handle programs that expect Hercules? B>Parallel / Serial ports (Tandy Standard) Standard? The RS-232C hardware *is* standard, right down to the non-RS-232C- standard DB9 connector that IBM forced on everyone. The SL/TL use a mega- cell equivalent to the 8250A/16450, the same part IBM (and everybody else uses.) As to the parallel adapter, apart from having an edge connector, it *IS* identical to the one that IBM used on the PC's. And you can always stick a serial/parallel board in the machine and have a DB-25 if that is the problem. B>384K Ram Remember what the price of memory was last summer when that catalog was printed? 256Kx1 for $14! 256Kx1 can now be had for $6 each as of last week from several outfits advertising in PC Week. Yes, it would be nice if the base config had more. Now that prices are coming down, perhaps that will change. Since DOS is in ROM, you may not need as much as you would otherwise. B>3.2 (?) Dos IN ROM You don't read the catalogs do you? See 1989 Computer Catalog, page 19. There, down in the specifications, "MS-DOS 3.3 (in ROM)". And how fast does that Model 30 boot from hard disk? Our stock IBM Model 60 takes 45 seconds to get to the point where it asks if you want to run OS/2 or DOS. Then it actually starts to boot DOS. In the time it took me to type the first word of this sentence, the SL/TL booted and was ready for action. That is an incompatibility that I think some people might be able to live with. B>DeskMate (which probably should count against it!) IN ROM So? The IBM PC had some of BASICA in ROM!!! Did it help when you ran GWBASIC or QUICKBASIC or TURBOBASIC? Nooooo! You just ignored it and Microsoft got their royalty for code that was never touched. If you don't like Deskmate, you can ignore it too and it will just sit there quietly, not taking up any space on your disks or in your memory map. B>To make this a usable computer one needs: B>CM-11 CGA Monitor - $399 Watch the junk-mail flyers and the color supplements - a monitor is frequently available bundled with the SL or TL for some price below last years catalog price. They usually allow you to substitute for a CM-11. OR, pop down to Sams Wholesale Club and get a Magnavox RGBI monitor that will do the same job for $230. B>upgade to 640K - $189 Uh, where are you buying these parts? You can pay closer to $96 for the RAM you require, if you are willing to get it mail order. From Radio Shack, see Page 25, $139.90. And that was the price as of August when RAM prices were so high. B>20 Meg HardDisk - $599 I would suggest you get this from someone else. A 20 meg hardcard goes for $350 from most component dealers. B>Total System: ~ $2100 Buying it all from RS, that actually comes to $699+$399+$139+$599 = $1836. Of course, if you buy through a franchise dealer, expect up to 40% off these prices. If you assume just 25% average off, you get $1377 for the above system. There are always ways to get it cheaper than list. And your eductional outfit should be able to get even lower prices. And if you buy the hard disk and extra memory elsewhere, you drop even lower. Your IBM price was $1800 - I want to know where you got that quote. Their cheapest VGA monitor (8514) is about $400 at educational discounts. I'll skip the rest of the posting and just say this. Tandy markets these machines more for the items you failed to mention, probably because IBM does not have them. Things like sound generators and DAC and ADC hardware for digitizing sound. If the machine had no features above those IBM or anyone else provides, the only remaining factors are the mechanical (keyboard feel, cabinet, etc) and price. However, when talking about the base machine, try to keep comparisons on even keel. Look at the specifications BEFORE claiming a machine has x processor or y problem. Yes, I also feel that company-owned Radio Shack stores are usually overpriced, so franchise outlets should be used. Eventually perhaps it will sink in that the pricing is out of line when the frachisers can move it and the company stores can't. <My opinion, and not that of my employer who is getting out their 1000 MX and targeting portions of the MDT time-zone as we type.> "Thank you, Uh Clem." Frank Durda IV @ <trsvax!uhclem> Senior Software Project Engineer Computer Architecture Instructor, TCJC Usher at Casa Manana Catcher on Sundays Archvist on Fridays and Saturdays Can recite nearly every Monty Python episode ... ...decvax!microsoft!trsvax!uhclem ...sys1!hal6000!trsvax!uhclem "Yes, nine out of ten British housewives can't tell the difference between Wizzo butter and a dead crab." "I can't tell the difference between Wizzo butter and this dead crab."
ron@vaxnix.UUCP (Ron Light) (04/24/89)
In article <948@jarthur.Claremont.EDU> ahaley@jarthur.UUCP (Alexander Haley) writes: > Falmes are welcome. Falme (fal - mee) s plu v 1. (slang) one who falmes adj 2. to falme falmes to /nev/dull :-)
greg@ncelvax.UUCP (Greg Ramsey) (04/25/89)
In article <1454@csm9a.UUCP>, japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: > For aproximently $900 the Tandy SL > 8088 - 8 Mhz. > 1 5 1/4" 360K floppy > CGA graphics (ok... expanded CGA... whoopie) > Parallel / Serial ports (Tandy Standard) > 384K Ram > 3.2 (?) Dos IN ROM > DeskMate (which probably should count against it!) IN ROM > To make this a usable computer one needs: > CM-11 CGA Monitor - $399 > upgade to 640K - $189 > 20 Meg HardDisk - $599 > Total System: ~ $2100 > Compare this with: > IBM PS/2 model 30 package: > 8086 - 8 Mhz (8086 has improved throughput over 8088) > VGA!!! Last time I checked didn't the Models 25 & 30 only have MCGA graphics/monitors? Still better than Tandy CGA but not VGA. > Analog Color Monitor > Parallel / Serial ports (industry standard) > 640K Ram > 1 3 1/2" 720K floppy > 20 Meg Internal HD > Dos 4.01 > MS Windows > MS Works > Cost: $1800 This price can often be beat though by watching for sales. Plus I believe IBM is being much more aggresive wit it's academic pricing on the model 30, wheras Tandy will probably give you pretty much the same price in the stores. > Gee... there goes Tandy's value right out the window! > Why........????? > Tandy's peripherals are the most expensive in the industry... they sell their > computers at Kmart prices (and with Kmart quality I might add) and sell their > peripherals like they were Apple! As the husband of a Tandy dealer, we go around and around on just this point. Plus they like to go around putting little changes in their hardware and software so you have to buy ther peripheals and can't use their software on other machines. As an example I tried to boot my true blue with a copy of Tandy's version of MS-DOS and it came up with the error message "Disk bootable only on Tandy 1000 computer" > > Why would anyone but a fool buy Tandy, seeing as how there are so many better > values? Because of their much more intense and superior marketing to people who don't know any better. Greg ___ Greg Ramsey _n_n_n____i_i ________ Naval Civil Engineering Lab (____________I I______I Code L54 805/ /ooOOOO OOOOoo oo oooo Port Hueneme, CA 93043 982-4619 -- ___ Greg Ramsey _n_n_n____i_i ________ Naval Civil Engineering Lab (____________I I______I Code L54 805/ /ooOOOO OOOOoo oo oooo Port Hueneme, CA 93043 982-4619
japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) (04/25/89)
In article <2821@pegasus.ATT.COM>, psrc@pegasus.ATT.COM (Paul S. R. Chisholm) writes: > In article <1454@csm9a.UUCP>, japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: > > (These prices are based on the price at the CSM Bookstore and thus represent > > an educational pricing... this is done SINCE I have no idea what the pricing > > for these computers is outside of the educational market and most Usenet > > readers are academics anyway!) > > Speak for yourself, Joe.-) Besides, what you're saying is that IBM > offers a much steeper educational discount for the package you're > interested in. > > > Tandy SL > > CGA graphics (ok... expanded CGA... whoopie) > >... > > IBM PS/2 model 30 package: > > VGA!!! > > Analog Color Monitor > > Nope. The PS/2-30 has MCGA: 320x200x256 colors (same resolution as > Tandy expanded CGA, but with a better palette), 640x480x2 colors, and > CGA modes. Yes, the text modes have fairly nice characters (*much* > nicer than a CGA monitor can display in only 640x200). You can add a > VGA card and use it with the PS/2-30's monitor. I stand corrected.... but the 30-286's that everyone around here is buying have full VGA... and both come with an Analog monitor... The Tandy requires you to buy a monitor! And as to their expanded CGA, it would be wonderful if there was: A> real software that supported it... yes, most Games now have a Tandy graphics mode, but no spreadsheets or graphics programs do... including Lotus, Grapher, Harvard Graphics, MS Chart, PC Paintbrush, PC Paint, GEM Paint, Ventura, AutoCad, Halo, or any other graphics program I have seen... Also graphics libraries completely ignore it... MS C, Quick Basic, Borland's GDI, etc... $2K+ for a game machine is a little steep! Is it any wonder that this school year alone our bookstore has sold over 100 IBM systems and 0 Tandy systems! In fact our bookstore has been trying to sell the Tandy Demo units it bought but can't get anyone to pay even the DEMO price! The only reason Tandy sells so well is theres one on every other corner... complete with a used car salesman that knows zilch about computers! But that's ok since most home computer buyers know less... (the Usenet readership, of course, should be more litterate than most) - Joe Applegate - ======================STANDARD DISCLAIMER============================ All views and opinions are my own and do not represent the views or opinions of the Colorado School of Mines, whatever they might be. =====================================================================
cperry@lakesys.UUCP (Christopher Perry) (04/25/89)
In reply to the value of TANDY computers compared to others.... You are correct in that when you consider add ons to complete a system, many of which Tandy bundles (you can only use Tandy boards etc.) your system price is very high. Certainly better deals could be found elsewhere. Sometime Tandy will mark a computer down half off or so and its add ons and you can get a somewhat fair price. Then one wonders how they can mark it down half off and still make a profit. Answer, their original prices are a huge rip off.
bcw@rti.UUCP (Bruce Wright) (04/25/89)
In article <2821@pegasus.ATT.COM>, psrc@pegasus.ATT.COM (Paul S. R. Chisholm) writes: > In article <1454@csm9a.UUCP>, japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: > > (These prices are based on the price at the CSM Bookstore and thus represent > > an educational pricing... this is done SINCE I have no idea what the pricing > > for these computers is outside of the educational market and most Usenet > > readers are academics anyway!) > > Speak for yourself, Joe.-) Besides, what you're saying is that IBM > offers a much steeper educational discount for the package you're > interested in. Tandy list prices ARE rather on the high side. But then, I don't think very many people in their right minds will buy something expensive from them unless it's on sale. It's like Sears used to be (I haven't been there since it changed, so I can't make much of a comment on whether the change is very great): there, too, the prices tended to be high unless the item was on sale. But if you could contain yourself until what you wanted WAS on sale, the discount was sufficient that you could usually pick up pretty decent stuff at a reasonable price. I think in a lot of respects Tandy is similar. Just my personal observations. Bruce C. Wright
bevans@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Brian Evans) (04/25/89)
Why did I buy Tandy over IBM? Well, it's because I've used IBM's over the years and found them to be quite slow. Besides, the first "real" computer I had was a 1000EX (which was a gift) and I wanted to be able to use all of the stuff I had bought for it (25 pin serial card, modem, memory, etc.) when I upgraded. My 1000EX was on par, speed-wise, with my friend IBM (I believe she has an XT), in my opinion. I bought a TL because I needed to upgrade. Basically, I needed a hard drive and had run out of slots. Plus, since I was planning to do some compute-intensive work, an upgrade to a 286 seemed appropriate. I like DeskMate in that it gives me an environment. It lets me see my entire disk at once instead of having to search through directories. Granted, the bells and whistles ain't much, but that isn't why I use it. DeskMate Text is fine for my simple documents. It allows me to bring in pictures from Draw. For more complex documents, I use Lotus Manuscript. Word, WordPerfect, and WordStar can't handle it. Between the two, I have everything I need. My system fits me just fine and that's all the explanation I need to do. -- Brian Evans "In any formula, constants (especially bevans@hmcvax.bitnet those obtained from engineering bevans@jarthur.claremont.edu textbooks) are to be treated as or !uunet!jarthur!bevans variables."
msschaa@cs.vu.nl (Schaap MS) (04/25/89)
In article <1454@csm9a.UUCP> japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: ... > >Compare this with: >IBM PS/2 model 30 package: >8086 - 8 Mhz (8086 has improved throughput over 8088) >VGA!!! ... This is nonsense. An IBM PS/2 model 30 has no VGA, but an MCGA. That's a big difference, because an MCGA is not EGA compatible. (very frustrating, when I can't run a program that uses 320x200x16; I 'only' have 320x200x256 !!)
csvon@mtsu.UUCP (Von Hall) (04/25/89)
Must you IBM people keep cross-posting to comp.sys.tandy. I mean if you want to continue with the insecurities about the IBM-PS/2 do it in you own newsgroup. Thanks. Von Hall
mchin@homxc.UUCP (M.CHIN) (04/25/89)
From article <281@ncelvax.UUCP>, by greg@ncelvax.UUCP (Greg Ramsey): > In article <1454@csm9a.UUCP>, japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: >> For aproximently $900 the Tandy SL Just checked with Marymac Industries Inc. The Tandy SL can be bought for $560 delivered to your door. > >> To make this a usable computer one needs: >> CM-11 CGA Monitor - $399 >> upgade to 640K - $189 >> 20 Meg HardDisk - $599 At least you don't need to buy the keyboard like Apple makes you do :-) Anyone who is stupid enough to buy their peripherals through Tandy deserves what they get. I don't know if the SL has a PC compatible bus, but anyone who buys a non compatible also deserves what they get. And for all those flamers out there, yes Tandy does sell true AT compatible bus as well as MicroChannel and they are working on an EISA machine and a 386 SX machine. So, you can buy a 20 Meg drive for only $280 and a CGA monitor for $280. > >> Total System: ~ $2100 If you shop intelligently. Total System ~ $ 1310. > >> Compare this with: >> IBM PS/2 model 30 package: >> Cost: $1800 > > This price can often be beat though by watching for sales. > Plus I believe IBM is being much more aggresive wit it's > academic pricing on the model 30, wheras Tandy will probably > give you pretty much the same price in the stores. Not really. Going by mail order prices, I could maybe come down to $1600 for the machine plus harddisk. Adding the monitor and software brings the price to ~$2100. IBM's educational discount is below the price that they sell to wholesalers. No sale ever comes down below the wholesaler's price. Going out of business sales are an exception. So, for about $700 less, I can get a comparable system with lower quality graphics. Getting a better monitor costs ~$220 more and a super-EGA/VGA card is only 300. I still save some $300 from IBM's price for those of us who DON'T qualify for the educational discount. But I wouldn't buy the BS/2-30 in the first place. > As the husband of a Tandy dealer, we go around and around on just this > point. Plus they like to go around putting little changes in their > hardware and software so you have to buy ther peripheals and can't use > their software on other machines. As an example I tried to > boot my true blue with a copy of Tandy's version of MS-DOS and > it came up with the error message "Disk bootable only on Tandy > 1000 computer" > Again, buying a non-compatible computer is a big mistake. My version of DOS 3.30 boots up just fine on my IBM PC-1. And all my peripherals are non Tandy products. It works just fine. A lot easier than my IBM PC-1 I might add. Also, the PS/2-30 is a MicroChannel machine I believe. Making it also somewhat non-compatible. There are pitifully few MicroChannel VGA cards and Modems are also in scarce supply. Michael Chin | It could probably be shown by facts AT&T Bell Laboratories | and figures that there is no distinctly att!homxc!mchin | native American criminal class Arpa: mchin@homxc.ATT.COM | except Congress. - Mark Twain
toma@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM (Tom Almy) (04/25/89)
My experience, having owned, or been close to, 5 Tandy computers, a True-Blue IBM PC, numerous mail-order clones, and a mail-order CP/M machine. And also having visited many computer stores contemplating computer purchases. 1. The mail order establishments are the most knowledgeable, followed by the Tandy Computer Centers, followed by the local computer stores. 2. Tandy computer repair is much less expensive than the competition, and faster as well. Mail order repair is only competitive if the user has the expertise and the vendor agrees to cross-ship components. 3. No mater what the brand, you have less trouble (less finger pointing) if you buy from a single vendor, even though that typically costs more. For these reasons, I had my father buy a Tandy computer years ago (a TRS-80, Model III, this was before PC days), since he is a non-technical user who wanted a box that worked, and if it didn't he could get fixed fast. They also lived 3000 miles away, too far for me to help out. He has had no regrets. Years ago I bought a Tandy 1000 to do some contract software development on because I felt that the IBM-PC would be short lived (how wrong I was!) and I didn't want to waste time piecing together a super system. But last fall my parents moved across the street. My father needed a PC/AT clone, having outgrown the TRS-80 (he had four floppy drives on it!). I built him a clone system, since he now has a knowledgeable vendor close by! The moral of the story is: for those of us in the know (probably everybody reading this) Tandy, IBM, and even Compaq, does not make much sense. But for the "unwashed masses" Tandy is a safe bet. (Note that while no one has ever been "fired" for buying IBM, plenty of people have been "burned"). Tom Almy toma@tekgvs.labs.tek.com Now, More Than Ever, Standard Disclaimers Apply
gmadison@pnet02.cts.com (George Madison) (04/26/89)
As a recent graduate of Pomona College (in the same system as Harvey Mudd), I want to amplify what Alex Haley said about dismal results from IBM equipment. I could not BELIEVE the price P.C. paid per unit for a lousy 2-floppy PS/2 Model 30 -- utterly laughable. Even after adding in the cost of a 3rd party VGA board to a comparable Tandy 1000, Tandy's RETAIL price was comparable (a bit lower, actually) and the price that P.C. would have gotten was significantly LOWER. I also heard that they were planning on spending $750 PER CARD for AppleTalk cards for the Model 30's when the TandyLink card was going for $150. (The Model 30's are in a PC lab with a batch of Mac SE's, hence the use of AppleTalk.) I don't know where some people are getting the weird idea that Tandy is more expensive than IBM, but it just isn't true. Maybe if you compare IBM discount educational prices to Tandy's retail... but not if you compare HONESTLY. |George Madison, a/k/a George The Bear Cub, a/k/a Furr ** BEAR POWER **| |INET: gmadison@pnet02.cts.com 8-{)> ames!elroy!pnet02.cts.com!gmadison| |GEnie: GEORGE.M Arctophiles & Barbophiles Unite! PLink: BEARDLOVER| "I knew you were up to something, though I confess I hadn't thought of necrophilia." -- Prince Barin to Princess Aura, _Flash Gordon_
pak@meccsd.MECC.MN.ORG (Patricia A. Korn) (04/26/89)
Someone asked about a gear which controls the paper feed on the CGP-115, a small printer/plotter which used to be sold by R.S. and was commonly owned by people with Cocos. The part number is either ARA0563 or ARA0565, according to a note I have from the last time I had to by this part (a common problem on this printer). National parts should be able to supply you with it for about a dollar. In the future, be sure you NEVER try to advance the paper by pulling on it. This will damage the gear. Pat
leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (04/27/89)
In article <2537@maccs.McMaster.CA> cs3b3aj@maccs.UUCP writes:
<>Total System: ~ $2100
< $3200 Cdn + memory upgrade
<
<>Compare this with:
<>IBM PS/2 model 30 package:
<>Cost: $1800
<
<Yeah ... you know you're charging far too much when IBM's cheaper than
<you are. I think I could get a 10 MHz 8088 clone with the same features
<as the Tandy for under $2000 Cdn ... my 12 MHz AT clone with 44M 25 ms
<hard drive, Herc clone, monitor, 640K, 1.2M drive, 2 parallel, 1 serial,
<1 game only cost me $2400 Cdn!
<
<I can see why someone might want to buy a name brand computer (because
<you figure they'll be there if the thing breaks, and also some people
<don't have faith in the quality or legality of clones), but why Tandy
<would price their systems above IBM's is beyond me, too.
I suspect that a lot of the reason for the high prices in Canada is that
while IBm has a Canadian division that may be "producing" the PS/2's sold
ther, Tandy doesn't! This would make a major difference in the import
tarriffs.
--
Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
CIS: [70465,203]
"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools.
Let's start with typewriters." -- Solomon Shortchrise@carr.UUCP (Chris Eden) (04/27/89)
In article <2537@maccs.McMaster.CA> cs3b3aj@maccs.UUCP (Three More Exams) writes: >1000 TL: 80286 8 MHz, 640K, DOS 3.3 in ROM, 3-1/2" 720K, 101-key keyboard, > same enhanced CGA, hi-res RGBI monitor, DeskMate (whoopee), 20M hard card > costs $3600 Cdn. By the way, it looks to me like they include 128K of > video memory in that 640K, so it's really only a 512K machine. Your figure of $3600 is a little off - The system you describe above now goes for about $2600 Cdn - Monitor + Computer are on sale for $1999, while the hard drive costs $600 Cdn now. Never rely on catalogues. >Has Tandy cleared up the compatibility problems they used to have a few >years ago? The 1000 TL is software and Hardware compatible, a big step up since the plain 1000 (which I had). >And how about their modem prices - $199.95 Cdn for a 1200 baud half-card >modem? Or their Logitech serial mouse for 169.95 Cdn (these cost around >$100 in the store where I bought my clone) As for the modems, sure they're expensive, but you don't have to buy an RS modem (or a hard drive, as in your price estimate) if you don't want to. I agree that RS can be quite pricy, although they do often have some good sales. I thought about buying a clone, but it can be dangerous - some stores aren't willing to support you after they've made the sale, and I've always been happy with the RS salespeople I know. I know there are a lot of wormy salespeople out there, but that applies to salespeople everywhere, not just at RS. Chris Eden. ..................................................................... USENET: uunet!mnetor!yunexus!writer!chrise
) (04/27/89)
In article <161@mtsu.UUCP> csvon@mtsu.UUCP (Von Hall) writes: :Must you IBM people keep cross-posting to comp.sys.tandy. I mean if you :want to continue with the insecurities about the IBM-PS/2 do it in you :own newsgroup. Thanks. Uh ... I thought that the topics being discussed were the IBM PC family more or less (which is comp.sys.ibm.pc), and the Tandy family (which would, if logic prevails, be comp.sys.tandy). flame { If you don't like Tandy products being discussed in comp.sys.tandy, may I suggest that you either unsubscribe or type K (assuming you're in RN) to add this thread to your kill file. }
msschaa@cs.vu.nl (Schaap MS) (04/27/89)
In article <6464@homxc.UUCP> mchin@homxc.UUCP (M.CHIN) writes: >add. Also, the PS/2-30 is a MicroChannel machine I believe. Making it also No. It isn't The PS/2 model 30 isn't really a PS2 :-).
kevin@iisat.UUCP (Kevin Davies) (04/28/89)
In article <1371@bucket.UUCP>, leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes: > In article <2537@maccs.McMaster.CA> cs3b3aj@maccs.UUCP writes: > I suspect that a lot of the reason for the high prices in Canada is that > while IBm has a Canadian division that may be "producing" the PS/2's sold > ther, Tandy doesn't! This would make a major difference in the import > tarriffs. Tandy in Canada (really under the name InterTan) buys its computers from Tandy in the U.S. -- almost like buying wholesale. Both firms, Tandy(US) and InterTan are seperate companies and the about the only physical link is the name on the computers that are sold here in Canada. As some of you may notice, the new products of '89 are coming out with new logos on them which consists of an I and a T in a graphical form. This is the InterTan trademark. As a result, many products south of the border are not sold in Canada (for varying reasons). A good example is the CoCo series, which is now discontiued in Canada and is no longer sold, whereas Tandy (US) still produces and sells them. This coming year should see many changes in InterTan in Canada with new products not necessarily sold in the US. P.S.: InterTan is now on the stock market (N.Y. ?) after only about 3 years of business. in six months, from ~$31 to present ~$45. -- Kevin Davies International Information Service (IIS) UUCP: {uunet,utai,watmath}!dalcs!iisat!kevin Bitnet/Uucp: kevin@iisat.uucp Arpanet: kevin%iisat.uucp@uunet.uu.net
csvon@mtsu.MTSU.EDU (Von Hall) (04/30/89)
In article <2569@maccs.McMaster.CA> cs3b3aj@maccs.UUCP (don't bother, my account dies on Friday) writes: > Uh ... I thought that the topics being discussed were the IBM PC >family more or less (which is comp.sys.ibm.pc), and the Tandy family >(which would, if logic prevails, be comp.sys.tandy). > >flame { > > If you don't like Tandy products being discussed in comp.sys.tandy, >may I suggest that you either unsubscribe or type K (assuming you're in >RN) to add this thread to your kill file. > >} I simple don't want to read all this garbage about advertising gimicks that Tandy is using, when IBM is doing the same thing (maybe not right now but they have before). I just wanted the cross-postings to tandy to stop. I read this newsgroup to here about Tandy products and there progress. I think that if someone was posting to the IBM pc newsgroup of the failures of IBM products from another newsgroup you would feel the same. It is obvious that there is the use of an advertising gimick I don't dispute that. It just get OLD sometimes to here needless repetition. I like IBM products I use them everyday, it's not an anti-IBM thing, it is an Pro-Tandy, Pro-IBM thing. I like to here discussions not flames. There probably is always going to be a better value, for either IBM or Tandy. Von Hall Computer Science MTSU
mikei@ctdi.UUCP (Mike Israel) (05/08/89)
In article <193300123@trsvax> reyn@trsvax.UUCP writes: > >All in all, you seem to be about three years behind the times on your >knowledge of Tandy products. Judging by what I've seen since I've worked >at Tandy, there has been a tremendous effort to rectify exactly the types >of things you've been coplaining about. Virtually every deficiency you >have stated for your 1000A no longer exists on the 1000 SL or 1000 TL. In article <1454@csm9a.UUCP> japplega@csm9a.UUCP (Joe Applegate) writes: >Tandy's latest motto has been developed to give the illusion that the >their computer products are the best value on the market... but is this >truth in advertising or just marketing hype... Let us examine Tandy's >products in comparison to other vendors to determine if: > > "Is there really no better value?" > >Tandy's peripherals are the most expensive in the industry... they sell their >computers at Kmart prices (and with Kmart quality I might add) and sell their >peripherals like they were Apple! > Exactly the point, Tandy is willing to make fixes only to insure that they remain a feasable alternative for NEW customers. They do not seem willing to support the machines they have already fielded with any form of upgrade path. When enhancements are offered they are sold at grossly over-inflated prices. I bought a 1000A with 128k of memory. Tandy wanted somewhere around $600 for a memory card which still would not give me 640k. That was only $200 less than I paid for the computer itself. Thank goodness for the folks at Zuckerboard. Many of Tandy's designs seem intentionally designed to chain Tandy owners to the doorway of their local Radio Shaft. To add a second floppy drive meant modifiying the cable so the connector would be long enough to reach a standard, non-Tandy drive. I had to actually solder a hard disk controller to make it operational on a Tandy, my alternative was to pay twice as much for a Tandy 20 meg drive as I did for my 40 meg drive. The short slots are an issue all its own. Tandy could afford to play these games when clones were still a risky business, at least they were a reputable vendor. These days a company like Dell is a MUCH better value. mikei@ctdi -- I think therefore I am confused! --
mchin@homxc.UUCP (M.CHIN) (05/11/89)
From article <443@ctdi.UUCP>, by mikei@ctdi.UUCP (Mike Israel): > > Exactly the point, Tandy is willing to make fixes only to insure that they > remain a feasable alternative for NEW customers. They do not seem willing to > support the machines they have already fielded with any form of upgrade > path. When enhancements are offered they are sold at grossly over-inflated > prices. How far back are they supposed to support their machines? IBM, sort of a standard, no longer supports their first machines either. Just ask anyone who needs to get a BIOS Rom just to install a hard disk. > > I bought a 1000A with 128k of memory. Tandy wanted somewhere around $600 > for a memory card which still would not give me 640k. That was only $200 > less than I paid for the computer itself. Thank goodness for the folks at > Zuckerboard. Sorry, but I'm losing sympathy real fast for 1000A owners. You complain about these things, but you should have known about them in the first place. It's like going out and buying a car and then finding out that the only oil filter it uses is manufactured by the car manufacturer. You know what this is called? A MONOPOLY. Apple uses it to great advantage. > Tandy could afford to play these games when clones were still a risky > business, at least they were a reputable vendor. These days a company > like Dell is a MUCH better value. > > mikei@ctdi There aren't that many clone manufacturers I would buy from before Tandy. Dell is one of them. Others are AST, ALR, ATT and maybe Northgate. And Northgate only recently. All the others I am too leery of their quality, customer support, existence in 5 years, etc. to want to buy. Checking list prices in PC Magazine's '386 issue for base models shows DELL at $2799, ALR at $2695, AT&T at $3495, AST at $4395, Tandy at $3999, Northgate at $3399. Now, I've never seen Dell, Northgate, or ALR's sold by outside mail order firms. Admittedly, I haven't looked that hard and Northgate is a bargain anyway (they threw in all sorts of extras in their list price). But, this means you may not be able to beat that list price by much. That's about the only reason I did not buy Dell. I didn't trust Northgate when I bought my machine. Michael Chin | It could probably be shown by facts AT&T Bell Laboratories | and figures that there is no distinctly att!homxc!mchin | native American criminal class Arpa: mchin@homxc.ATT.COM | except Congress. - Mark Twain