mathieu@ists.yorku.ca (Pierre Mathieu) (11/29/88)
Here are a couple of questions about HP tape drives. We have an HP 9000 series 350 system running HP-UX 6.2 with an HP 9144A tape drive. Question 1) Is it possible to load tapes into this drive that are not pre-formatted and format them from HP-UX? I have tried to use (non-HP) unformatted tapes in this drive but it just went into spasms and locked up totally refusing to use these tapes (which are in every way identical to HP's except that they are not pre-formatted). Question 2) If it is not possible, then does anybody know if other companies than HP make these pre-formatted tapes? We found that at twice the price of the other tapes out there, HP prices were a little excessive. :-) Thanks in advance for any help, Pierre Mathieu mathieu@ists.yorku.ca Institute for Space and Terrestrial Science mathieu@yunexus.yorku.ca Center for Research in Exp. Space Science York University, Ontario, Canada.
mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw) (12/01/88)
<274@istsists.ca>, by mathieu@ists.yorku.ca (Pierre Mathieu): > Question 1) Is it possible to load tapes into this drive that > are not pre-formatted and format them from HP-UX? Not that I know of; in fact, if you write onto a pre-formatted tape from a non-HP drive (e.g., a Sun) you destroy the formatted track(s?) and can no longer use the tape in the HP drive. > Question 2) If it is not possible, then does anybody know if other > companies than HP make these pre-formatted tapes? We 3M makes them. They are DC600HC tapes. Mike Khaw -- internet: mkhaw@teknowledge.arpa uucp: {uunet|sun|ucbvax|decwrl|ames|hplabs}!mkhaw%teknowledge.arpa hardcopy: Teknowledge Inc, 1850 Embarcadero Rd, POB 10119, Palo Alto, CA 94303
hmc@hwee.UUCP (Hugh Conner) (12/01/88)
In article <274@istsists.ca> mathieu@ists.yorku.ca (Pierre Mathieu) writes: > > Here are a couple of questions about HP tape drives. >We have an HP 9000 series 350 system running HP-UX 6.2 >with an HP 9144A tape drive. > As far as I know you cannot use un-formatted tapes, as most of these are wound on in the opposite direction to the HP tapes. However, in the UK anyway, you can use 3M tapes models DC600HC and DC615HC. I assume these should be available in Canada as well. The DC600HC is 600ft and the 615 is only 150ft. -- + "Who are all these people in my office anyway?" + + + + Hugh M. Conner hmc@ee.hw.ac.uk +
burzio@mmlai.UUCP (Anthony Burzio) (12/01/88)
In article <274@istsists.ca>, mathieu@ists.yorku.ca (Pierre Mathieu) writes: > Here are a couple of questions about HP tape drives. > Question 1) Is it possible to load tapes into this drive that > are not pre-formatted and format them from HP-UX? Not possible. HP uses a backwards file system. > Question 2) If it is not possible, then does anybody know if other > companies than HP make these pre-formatted tapes? Try MISCO at (800)631-2227 and ask for part number 6319. For small quantities, the price is $30.19 per tape. They also have a very nice cartridge organizer to hold 10 of the tapes neatly ($11.65 part #LF6324)... I got overnight delivery of the tapes. ************************************************************************** Tony Burzio * My HP computer is too fast. I can't use my Martin Marietta Labs * VAXen any more cause I'm spoiled... **************************************************************************
scf@statware.UUCP (Steve Fullerton) (12/02/88)
In article <26007@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA> mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw) writes: >> Question 2) If it is not possible, then does anybody know if other >> companies than HP make these pre-formatted tapes? We > >3M makes them. They are DC600HC tapes. I used to purchase the 3M DC600HC tapes for use on a HP9144 on an HP1000 and while they are pre-formatted, they are not certified. For a 150 ft tape it required about 15 minutes to certify and an hour for 600 ft tapes. During the certification process, the system would be completely locked up and unusable. I'm not sure if HP-UX requires certified tapes or not. And if so, what program would be used to certify them. I believe that `certified' means that a bad block scan is done and spares are created. This is necessary since HP also treats these tapes as blocked media suitable for file systems. We now have 2 cartridge tape drives and a 9-track drive and ONLY use the cartridge drives to build recovery systems. Used 1600 bpi 9-track drives for HP systems are cheap so if you do a lot of tape handling it might be worth it for you. -- Steve Fullerton Statware, Inc. scf%statware.uucp@cs.orst.edu 260 SW Madison Ave, Suite 109 orstcs!statware!scf Corvallis, OR 97333 503/753-5382
neil@yc.estec.nl (Neil Dixon) (12/02/88)
In article <274@istsists.ca> mathieu@ists.yorku.ca (Pierre Mathieu) writes: > >Question 1) Is it possible to load tapes into this drive that > are not pre-formatted and format them from HP-UX? Try using mediainit(1) -- Neil Dixon <neil@yc.estec.nl> UUCP:...!mcvax!esatst!neil, BITNET: NDIXON@ESTEC Thermal Control & Life Support Division (YC) European Space Research and Technology Centre (ESTEC), Noordwijk, The Netherlands.
mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw) (12/03/88)
<1074@statware.UUCP>, by scf@statware.UUCP (Steve Fullerton):
- In article <26007@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA> mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw) writes:
->> Question 2) If it is not possible, then does anybody know if other
->> companies than HP make these pre-formatted tapes? We
->
->3M makes them. They are DC600HC tapes.
-
- I used to purchase the 3M DC600HC tapes for use on a HP9144 on an HP1000
- and while they are pre-formatted, they are not certified. For a 150 ft
- tape it required about 15 minutes to certify and an hour for 600 ft tapes.
- During the certification process, the system would be completely locked
- up and unusable. I'm not sure if HP-UX requires certified tapes or
- not. And if so, what program would be used to certify them. I believe
Not a problem with HP-UX. I remember the hassles with using non HP tapes
on HP-1000s. When HP first came out with these drives, it might have made
sense to go with these "high-density" tape cartridges, but I wish they'd
join the rest of the world now and make life simpler for those of us with
heterogeneous (Unix) hardware.
Mike Khaw
--
internet: mkhaw@teknowledge.arpa
uucp: {uunet|sun|ucbvax|decwrl|ames|hplabs}!mkhaw%teknowledge.arpa
hardcopy: Teknowledge Inc, 1850 Embarcadero Rd, POB 10119, Palo Alto, CA 94303vic@zen.UUCP (Victor Gavin) (12/03/88)
In article <469@mmlai.UUCP> burzio@mmlai.UUCP (Anthony Burzio) writes: >In article <274@istsists.ca>, mathieu@ists.yorku.ca (Pierre Mathieu) writes: >> Question 1) Is it possible to load tapes into this drive that >> are not pre-formatted and format them from HP-UX? >Not possible. HP uses a backwards file system. Pardon! I'm sorry but HP uses the same file system as Berkely (HP call it HFS). If your referring to the ancient SDF (Structured Directory Format); this was implemented on the HP9000 series 500 (RIP) to allow access between HP-UX and BASIC file systems on the same disk. vic -- Victor Gavin Zengrange Limited vic@zen.co.uk Greenfield Road ..!mcvax!ukc!zen.co.uk!vic Leeds LS9 8DB +44 532 489048 England
bill@iccdev.UUCP (Bill Gaines) (12/04/88)
In article <274@istsists.ca> mathieu@ists.yorku.ca (Pierre Mathieu) writes: > > Here are a couple of questions about HP tape drives. >We have an HP 9000 series 350 system running HP-UX 6.2 >with an HP 9144A tape drive. > >Question 1) Is it possible to load tapes into this drive that > are not pre-formatted and format them from HP-UX? > I have tried to use (non-HP) unformatted tapes > in this drive but it just went into spasms and locked > up totally refusing to use these tapes (which are > in every way identical to HP's except that they are not > pre-formatted). > Yes it is. We never buy the tapes from HP. We buy 3M DC615HC and DC600HC tapes and certify them ourselves. I haven't tried it on a 300 series, but our 800 series has a program called "mediainit" that will certify these tapes that have not been certified. Buy doing it ourselves, it saves us about $15 per tape we buy. If you don't run mediainit on these tapes, you will not be able to use them. We buy ours from a place called COMTEL. I don't have their phone number or address handy. By the way, if you have an HP 1000, you can use the "formc" program to certify them on it. -- Bill Gaines Industrial Computer Corporation (...!gatech!iccdev!bill)
diblanch@sdrc.UUCP (Jeff Blanchet) (12/06/88)
Someone mentioned that you can buy tapes from 3M that are not certified. What I want to know is how much do these "uncertified" tapes cost and how long it take to certify them. I read that you can certify them by running mediainit. Does this format the tape or does this just write some header information on the tape? We duplicate alot of HP media and any response would be appreciated. Jeff Blanchet UUCP: uunet!sdrc!diblanch SDRC Cincinnati Ohio
jack@csccat.UUCP (Jack Hudler) (12/06/88)
In article <1074@statware.UUCP> scf@statware.UUCP (Steve Fullerton) writes: >I used to purchase the 3M DC600HC tapes for use on a HP9144 on an HP1000 >and while they are pre-formatted, they are not certified. For a 150 ft >tape it required about 15 minutes to certify and an hour for 600 ft tapes. >During the certification process, the system would be completely locked >up and unusable. I am not sure what 9000 box you are using but if you place an additional HPIB card and place the tape drive on it then the lock up would not occur. I have a 320 and the printer,plotter,floppys, and tape drive are all on the internal HP-IB and the mounted drives are on the High-Speed HPIB bus. Anyway you may know this but I just thought I would pass it along. Jack Hudler -- * OS2, what DOS should have been!
maddog@anuck.UUCP (j.j.tupper) (12/06/88)
In article <433@iccdev.UUCP> bill@iccdev.UUCP (Bill Gaines) writes: >Yes it is. We never buy the tapes from HP. We buy 3M DC615HC and >DC600HC tapes and certify them ourselves. I haven't tried it on a 300 >series, but our 800 series has a program called "mediainit" that will >certify these tapes that have not been certified. Buy doing it >ourselves, it saves us about $15 per tape we buy. If you don't run >mediainit on these tapes, you will not be able to use them. We use the 3M tapes (DC-600HC) in 2 9144 drives and a 35401 autochanger. We don't ever bother running mediainit and have no problems. I think this is because the later models of HP drives (like ours) do auto sparing of bad blocks on the fly. [I *know* that ours has a read while write head to check for errors as it writes, unlike earlier tape drives.] -------------------------------------------------------- sdflkjreo vdklfj (my real signature is illegible too)
sfr@praxis.co.uk (Stephen Rickaby) (12/06/88)
In article <26007@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA> mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw) writes: ><274@istsists.ca>, by mathieu@ists.yorku.ca (Pierre Mathieu): >> Question 1) Is it possible to load tapes into this drive that >> are not pre-formatted and format them from HP-UX? > >Not that I know of; in fact, if you write onto a pre-formatted tape >from a non-HP drive (e.g., a Sun) you destroy the formatted track(s?) >and can no longer use the tape in the HP drive. Can't remember which HP drives you are talking about, but I once loaded a DC600 which had been bulk erased into a 7914 on an A900. It was spectacular. The tape whizzed about a bit while to controller looked at it, then there was a long pause for thought, then the drive hung, hanging the disc (shared HPIB controller) *and* the CPU. (Users of A-eries machines will know that system crashes are *rare*, as opposed to some operating system :-) ...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Rickaby | ,,, Praxis Systems plc | < O_O > 20 Manvers Street, Bath, BA1 1PX, UK | ==( . )== Tel: +44 225 444700 Tx: 445848 PRAXIS G | Prrrouwf, Wackwacka sfr%praxis.uuc@ukc.ac.uk | !mcvax!ukc!praxis!sfr | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pascal is a blase, but Modula-2 is wirth its weight in gold.
jsadler@bcsaic.UUCP (James Sadler) (12/07/88)
In article <26038@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA> mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw) writes: ><1074@statware.UUCP>, by scf@statware.UUCP (Steve Fullerton): >- In article <26007@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA> mkhaw@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA (Mike Khaw) writes: Stuff deleted > >Not a problem with HP-UX. I remember the hassles with using non HP tapes >on HP-1000s. When HP first came out with these drives, it might have made >sense to go with these "high-density" tape cartridges, but I wish they'd >join the rest of the world now and make life simpler for those of us with ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Just another case of HP inventing their own standards. After the last upgrade I just did I don't want to ever see a !#@$!#@#! HP tape cartridge again. Out of the last four AXE and PE tapes we received 3, repeat 3 of the 4 have been bad. Do you what its like to be part way through a upgrade and have the tape be bad ??!! Since this involved an change from a 9000-520 to a 9000-350 we made a complete backup of the disk and then tar'ed the user files and other directories to seperate tapes. The tape the the user files were on was bad at the 9th file. Thank goodness that the archive was good, but don't think we weren't wondering about it. The last thing I'd get is a HP cartridge drive. >heterogeneous (Unix) hardware. > >Mike Khaw >-- >internet: mkhaw@teknowledge.arpa >uucp: {uunet|sun|ucbvax|decwrl|ames|hplabs}!mkhaw%teknowledge.arpa >hardcopy: Teknowledge Inc, 1850 Embarcadero Rd, POB 10119, Palo Alto, CA 94303 Jim Sadler 206-234-5422 hpubvwa!b-mrda (when we get thing put back together) or bcsaic.UUCP!jsadler
scotty@ziggy.UUCP (Scott Drysdale) (12/09/88)
we recently got a bunch of hp350 series 9000 workstations where i work. they are going to be used as edit/compile/link/emulate stations using the 64000 compatible emulator cage and the 186 emulator. we previously (and still now, unfortunately) used the 64000 for these functions - but it's obviously terribly slow doing everything. i started squirting source from the 64000 to the unix system tonight, and got some stuff compiled/assembled/linked. some observations: the compiler/assembler/linker seem to be the same brain-damaged ones as the 64000's. compiler makes putrid code and doesn't like to put initialized structures in the "code" space, the linker takes the same painful input file to direct it's work. the assembler seems to have the same bugs as the 64000 assembler. i haven't tried the emulation stuff yet - but so far it doesn't look good. anyone know of any 3rd party compilers/assemblers/linkers that understand segments the way intel intended (ie, groups, rel,rel,rel->linker->rel, etc) and produce output that's usable by the emulator package, and run on the 350/9000? it'd be nice to get something that's on par with microsoft c's optimizations and ANSIness - anyone know of a way to convert microsoft rel files to hp rel files? also, anyone know of a decent text editor for the 350/9000? vi doesn't quite cut it, and the 64000-style editor is simply awful. we're looking for something that doesn't use the "anything you type will cause something to happen" style of user interface (ie, vi, microemacs,...). it'd also be really cool if the editor knew how to use hp's windowing system and mouse. the editor must present in some form (status line?) the current state of the editor (ie, let you know that it's in the middle of command xyz, or what your next allowable keystrokes can be, etc). if you've seen/used intel AEDIT, that's a good example of what we're looking for. thanks. --Scott Drysdale Telecommunications Techniques Corp.
jack@csccat.UUCP (Jack Hudler) (12/10/88)
In article <9055@bcsaic.UUCP> jsadler@bcsaic.UUCP (James Sadler) writes: >Just another case of HP inventing their own standards. After the last ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The "Tape Format" in question here was not dreamed up by HP, if you want to blame someone then blame 3M. It's there idea and HP just had the mis-fortune to use it. You have to understand the times in which this decsion was made, remember that HP started using cartridge tapes many years ago when tape technology in this scale was still young (HP does like to try new things). Therefore HP decided to use 3M formated tapes because they had much higher quality control and because every tape was tested when formated and still is. > Out of the last four AXE and PE tapes we received 3, >repeat 3 of the 4 have been bad. Do you what its like to be part way I have been working with HP equipment for 8 years and since we started using cartridge tapes I have kept a box of the bad ones... I just looked it, there are 7 bad tapes and all of them have been used to death. And I have never had a bad tape from HP, I also wonder how often y'al clean an aligned the cartridge tape drive. My library has 267 tapes in it, and yes it's alot of money. >through a upgrade and have the tape be bad ??!! Since this involved an >change from a 9000-520 to a 9000-350 we made a complete backup of the >disk and then tar'ed the user files and other directories to seperate >tapes. The tape the the user files were on was bad at the 9th file. >Thank goodness that the archive was good, but don't think we weren't >wondering about it. The last thing I'd get is a HP cartridge drive. >Jim Sadler I am not picking on you Jim, just this bad attitude about formated tapes. Jack Hudler Computer Support Corp.
jsadler@bcsaic.UUCP (James Sadler) (12/17/88)
In article <2614@csccat.UUCP> jack@csccat.UUCP (Jack Hudler) writes: >In article <9055@bcsaic.UUCP> jsadler@bcsaic.UUCP (James Sadler) writes: >>Just another case of HP inventing their own standards. After the last > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >The "Tape Format" in question here was not dreamed up by >HP, if you want to blame someone then blame 3M. It's there idea Stuff deleted >and still is. > In that case I will blame 3M. Thanks for the correction. >> Out of the last four AXE and PE tapes we received 3, >>repeat 3 of the 4 have been bad. Do you what its like to be part way > >I have been working with HP equipment for 8 years and since we started >I have never had a bad tape from HP, I also wonder how often y'al clean >an aligned the cartridge tape drive. My library has 267 tapes in it, and >yes it's alot of money. The Drive's are the 7914's and have been on HP maintenence since day one. I have had HP out to look at the drive's and they haven't found any problems. The tapes that go bad have been the ones from HP. The only one I recall being bad from our stock (from HP) is the one I've mention. > >>through a upgrade and have the tape be bad ??!! Since this involved an >>wondering about it. The last thing I'd get is a HP cartridge drive. >>Jim Sadler > >I am not picking on you Jim, just this bad attitude about formated tapes. > > Jack Hudler > Computer Support Corp. Generaly I like HP and think they do a great job. Its just that after one too many times... Jim Sadler Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp Subject: Re: Pre-formatted tapes for HP drives Summary: Expires: References: <1074@statware.UUCP> <26038@teknowledge-vaxc.ARPA> <9055@bcsaic.UUCP> <2614@csccat.UUCP> Sender: Reply-To: jsadler@bcsaic.UUCP (James Sadler) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Boeing Computer Services AI Center, Seattle Keywords:
burzio@mmlai.UUCP (Tony Burzio) (12/20/88)
In article <9303@bcsaic.UUCP>, jsadler@bcsaic.UUCP (James Sadler) writes: > Generaly I like HP and think they do a great job. Its just that after > one too many times... OPINION AHOY! :-) One thing VMS wins hands down over UN*X is its' BACKUP utility. It is quite futile to deal with all the various tape writing facilities that UNIX provides. My SE and I have never successfully traded programs using the tape drive. Couldn't there be just one program that understood the 9144 tape drive is brain damaged and took care of the extra processing? Perhaps this program could even be user friendly? The rule is: if you aren't sure you can save data generated on the machine, why buy it? ********************************************************************* Tony Burzio * For $100,000 you should at least get Martin Marietta Labs * your choice of cabinet colors! mmlai!burzio@uunet.uu.net * *********************************************************************
sfr@praxis.co.uk (Stephen Rickaby) (12/20/88)
In article <9303@bcsaic.UUCP> jsadler@bcsaic.UUCP (James Sadler) writes: >In article <2614@csccat.UUCP> jack@csccat.UUCP (Jack Hudler) writes: >>In article <9055@bcsaic.UUCP> jsadler@bcsaic.UUCP (James Sadler) writes: >>>Out of the last four AXE and PE tapes we received 3, >>>repeat 3 of the 4 have been bad. Do you what its like to be part way ... >>I have been working with HP equipment for 8 years and since we started >>I have never had a bad tape from HP, I also wonder how often y'al clean >>an aligned the cartridge tape drive ... >The Drive's are the 7914's and have been on HP maintenence since day >one. I have had HP out to look at the drive's and they haven't found >any problems. The tapes that go bad have been the ones from HP. The >only one I recall being bad from our stock (from HP) is the one I've >mention. >>>through a upgrade and have the tape be bad ??!! Since this involved >>>an ... wondering about it. The last thing I'd get is a HP cartridge >>>drive. >> >>I am not picking on you Jim, just this bad attitude about formated tapes. >Generaly I like HP and think they do a great job. Its just that after ... Hey calm down guys! I also used 7912/7914s for years. The drives were *very* reliable. There is a well-documented case of a *single* batch of 600' tapes from 3M going bad. This was about early '86, and I think, although I am not totally sure, that it was the batch numbered 54xxxxxxx. In the UK this problem was rectified and the tapes replaced. Perhaps this did not happen so thoroughly in the States :-). The problem manifested itself with misreads due to oxide layer breakdown: a fine white deposit could be seen on the tension band under a good light. Check this out before flaming HP ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Rickaby | ,,, Praxis Systems plc | < O_O > 20 Manvers Street, Bath, BA1 1PX, UK | ==( . )== Tel: +44 225 444700 Tx: 445848 PRAXIS G | Prrrouwf, Wackwacka sfr%praxis.uuc@ukc.ac.uk | !mcvax!ukc!praxis!sfr | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- '1$x/\{{[^}]*}\}/\{<1\}/q/' ... do it in lower case, it's more polite.