[comp.sys.hp] new HP-UX 7.0 elm question

jsadler@misty.boeing.com (Jim Sadler) (01/06/90)

I recently, 1/2/89, received HP-UX 7.0 for my 825.  7.0 now comes with
elm.  elm is a ("User Agent") replacement for mailx.  I currently use
the version 2.2 [PL13] of elm from the elm development group.  When I 
tried to run HP_UX elm I got the following:

I can't understand line 22 in your ".elm/elmrc" file:
> receivedmail = =received
I can't understand line 37 in your ".elm/elmrc" file:
> sentmail = =sent
Line 46 of your ".elm/elmrc" is badly formed:
> remotesignature = 
I can't understand line 55 in your ".elm/elmrc" file:
> alwaysstore = OFF
I can't understand line 58 in your ".elm/elmrc" file:
> alwayskeep = ON
I can't understand line 75 in your ".elm/elmrc" file:
> bounceback = 0
I can't understand line 82 in your ".elm/elmrc" file:
> forcename = OFF
I can't understand line 110 in your ".elm/elmrc" file:
> promptafter = ON
Line 141 of your ".elm/elmrc" is badly formed:
> weedout =

I did a elm -v and got the following:


Elm Version and Identification Information:

	Elm $Revision: 64.9 $
	(c) Copyright Hewlett-Packard Company, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989
	(c) Copyright Yokogawa-Hewlett-Packard Ltd., 1988, 1989
	----------------------------------
	built Fri Sep  1 10:43:32 MDT 1989
	----------------------------------
	From: and Reply-To: addresses are good: USE_EMBEDDED_ADDRESSES
	User-specified name resolver disabled: not ENABLE_NAMESERVER
	Prefers internet address formats: INTERNET_ADDRESS_FORMAT
	No debug options are available: not DEBUG
	crypt function turned OFF: not ENCRYPTION_SUPPORTED
	Mailbox editing not included: not ALLOW_MAILBOX_EDITING
	Forms mode turned ON: FORMS_MODE_SUPPORTED *not supported*
	Mail bounceback turned OFF: not BOUNCEBACK_ENABLED

Anyone know what the "real" version number of the HP-UX elm is ?
Is this why it won't read the .elmrc file ?

I would read the manuals but they haven't arrived yet.

thanks

jim sadler
206-234-9009	email	uunet!bcstec!jsadler|root  | hplabs!hpubvwa!b-mrda!jim
					or jsadler@misty.boeing.com

syd@DSI.COM (Syd Weinstein) (01/07/90)

jsadler@misty.boeing.com (Jim Sadler) writes:
>I recently, 1/2/89, received HP-UX 7.0 for my 825.  7.0 now comes with
>elm.  elm is a ("User Agent") replacement for mailx.  I currently use
>the version 2.2 [PL13] of elm from the elm development group.  When I 
>tried to run HP_UX elm I got the following:
[lines about errors in .elm/elmrc file deleted]

>I did a elm -v and got the following:

>Elm Version and Identification Information:

>	Elm $Revision: 64.9 $
>	(c) Copyright Hewlett-Packard Company, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989
>	(c) Copyright Yokogawa-Hewlett-Packard Ltd., 1988, 1989
>	----------------------------------
>	built Fri Sep  1 10:43:32 MDT 1989

>Anyone know what the "real" version number of the HP-UX elm is ?
This is Y-HP Elm and not Usenet Elm.  Back when Dave Taylor left HP,
Elm was split into two different paths, One by Y-HP, and one on Usenet.
The Y-HP people did not feel it worth it to incorporate our changes,
and we did not like how HP specific their changes were.  Also, at
the time they sent me their source, it was not working properly,
and I have not heard from them since.

Their version of Elm is based on Elm 2.0, with their own internal
changes.  I do not know what extensions, if any, they incorporated
from our 2.1 or 2.2.  I do know that their source will only work
on Sys V, and specifically HP-UX systems.  (Porting to other System
V should be easy, to BSD is very difficult).  There is not autoconfiguration
system in their version, it all has to be done by hand.

I suggest you decide if you wish to run their version, and throw ours
away, or run ours and throw theirs away.  I knew this was coming, but
there was little we could do about it.

>Is this why it won't read the .elmrc file ?
It doesn't know about the newer options in your elmrc file, in fact,
it will destroy yours and convert it to its, if you save a new copy.

I have no idea if the two versions will ever merge in the future.
They Y-HP version is developed in Japan by Y-HP, and I have had very
little contact from them, and frankly, most of it not very good.

Note, that the Y-HP version is only available for HP systems, of course.
-- 
=====================================================================
Sydney S. Weinstein, CDP, CCP                   Elm Coordinator
Datacomp Systems, Inc.				Voice: (215) 947-9900
syd@DSI.COM or {bpa,vu-vlsi}!dsinc!syd	        FAX:   (215) 938-0235

taylor@limbo.Intuitive.Com (Dave Taylor) (01/09/90)

Jim Sadler at Boeing asks about the latest version of Elm from HP, as
included in HP-UX 7.0, to which Syd Weinstein responds with some
thoughts of his own, Syd being head of the Usenet Elm development
group.  Some of what he says, however, seems a bit unreasonable, and
I'd like to talk about a few of them here...

> This is Y-HP Elm and not Usenet Elm.  Back when Dave Taylor left HP,
> Elm was split into two different paths, One by Y-HP, and one on Usenet.

That's true, except I hadn't left HP when I let the source go; I had
just burned out on tracking the quirks of a thousand incompatible
architectures.  Actually... Hmmm... I think that the sequence of events
was more like I posted a note to the net asking if anyone was interested
in picking up ownership of the Elm Mail System for further development,
and then later, shortly after Syd and group showed up, was notified by
Yokogawa Hewlett-Packard of Japan that they were tasked with the job
of creating an easier-to-use interface to Unix mail [too bad they weren't
aware of OpenMail being developed at Pinewood in England] and that they
had choosen Elm as the logical successor to mailx.

Since my license agreement with Hewlett-Packard details that the firm
is able to have a free, no strings attached copy of the source at any
point they'd like to productize it, I gracefully offered to assist in
the incorporation of Elm into HP-UX 7.0.  (actually, a better way to
phrase that might be "Hearing the news from YHP was tremendously
exciting; I was thrilled to have finally managed to get Elm into the
HP-UX system and immediately offered to help")

Kohji Kanda, the manager of the Elm group at YHP promised that they 
wouldn't work in a black box and create a strange hybrid, but instead 
would work with me and with the Usenet group to at least be aware of what 
directions the Usenet version was moving in, though not necessarily to 
track them closely.

> The Y-HP people did not feel it worth it to incorporate our changes,
> and we did not like how HP specific their changes were.  

Well, I don't know if the tone implied by "worth it" is appropriate 
here, actually, since the goal of the two groups was different; for YHP
the goal was to have a mail system that ran flawlessly on HP machines
and helped HP customers deal with the complexity of Unix mail.  If it
were similar to a standard piece of software, so much the better, but
if it had to diverge to improve the HP value added of having Elm as
part of the OS, then so be it.  I personally agree with this philosophy
and would be surprised to find a similar situation where ANY company
wouldn't act similiarly.

The HP-specific changes comment is also kind of interesting since all
along Elm has been designed to run on HP-UX and HP computers, with 
other machines added simply for portability and to aid in the mail
system becoming a 'de facto standard', as it were.  There is, for
example, support for HP terminal softkeys and arrow keys built in to
the program, but not for other types of terminals...

> Also, at the time they sent me their source, it was not working 
> properly, and I have not heard from them since.

That actually doesn't surprise me; there was quite a ramp-up cost
for the YHP people from what I could see.  On the other hand, I 
think that once they got going with the project, they did do what
they had promised not to do; they withdrew into their own lab to 
work on the new Elm, and didn't let anyone peek until it was too
late to modify.  Many people within HP who ran the alpha and beta
versions of YHP-Elm quickly turned to other versions due to missing
features, new quirks, and so on...

Similarly, I saw a rough preliminary version of the Elm tutorial 
which was quite "rough" (to be generous) and after spending a few
days editing it and submitting almost a completely rewritten document,
never heard from the group again. 

> Their version of Elm is based on Elm 2.0, with their own internal
> changes.  I do not know what extensions, if any, they incorporated
> from our 2.1 or 2.2.

I surmise that there are few, if any, modifications from 2.1 or 2.2,
but again, as per my comments above, that was not particularly high
up on the list of priorities and requirements for the project, so
I can't see how we can fault them for this.
  
> I suggest you decide if you wish to run their version, and throw ours
> away, or run ours and throw theirs away.  I knew this was coming, but
> there was little we could do about it.

But there is now: someone from HP could go into the 2.2 version of 
usenet-Elm and add a starting option that indicates you're going to
be using/creating an HP-Elm .elmrc file...y'know, more important 
than the .elmrc file, has anyone (Jim?) checked to see if the alias
data files are in a compatible format?

> It doesn't know about the newer options in your elmrc file, in fact,
> it will destroy yours and convert it to its, if you save a new copy.

Well....in the earlier versions of Elm if you save a .elmrc file
from within the Elm program it would move the existing one to 
something like ".old.elmrc"...so if that's still there, you'd be
in reasonable shape.

> I have no idea if the two versions will ever merge in the future.

I doubt it.  Completely different goals for the two development
groups is not a good basis for talks of merging...

> The Y-HP version is developed in Japan by Y-HP, and I have had very
> little contact from them, and frankly, most of it not very good.

Perhaps people as they install 7.0 and try it can post here what they 
think of the new HP-Elm, when compared to the latest version from the 
Usenet group?

						-- Dave Taylor
Intuitive Systems
Mountain View, California

taylor@limbo.intuitive.com    or   {uunet!}{decwrl,apple}!limbo!taylor

jsadler@misty.boeing.com (Jim Sadler) (01/09/90)

/ misty:comp.sys.hp / syd@DSI.COM (Syd Weinstein) /  7:26 am  Jan  7, 1990 /
jsadler@misty.boeing.com (Jim Sadler) writes:

>>Anyone know what the "real" version number of the HP-UX elm is ?
>Note, that the Y-HP version is only available for HP systems, of course.

Thanks for the info.  Do you know what Y-HP stands for ?

>-- 
>=====================================================================
>Sydney S. Weinstein, CDP, CCP                   Elm Coordinator
>Datacomp Systems, Inc.				Voice: (215) 947-9900
>syd@DSI.COM or {bpa,vu-vlsi}!dsinc!syd	        FAX:   (215) 938-0235
>----------


jim sadler
206-234-9009	email	uunet!bcstec!jsadler|root  | hplabs!hpubvwa!b-mrda!jim

jp@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Julian Perry) (01/09/90)

I'd just like a add a vote of confidence in the HP version of elm - it's
really not that different from the Usenet version (which I used for a
long time before I joined HP).  There are differences but depending on
the way you use the system they may not be noticeable.

I'm quite happy (though not ecstatic) with the version of elm in 7.0
(which I've been using for a few months) and the conversion of the rc
files was not a big problem - it took only a few moments and was a
one-off.

I have nothing against the Usenet version, but by using HP-Elm it saves me
having to compile and maintain the Usenet version.

Jules [the can't see what all the fuss is about]        #include <disclaimer.h>
--
E-MAIL:         jp@hplb.hpl.hp.com || jp@hplb.hp.co.uk || jp@hplb.uucp
IN-REAL-LIFE:   Julian Perry
ORGANISATION:   Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol
ADDRESS:        Filton Road, Stoke Gifford, Bristol, England, BS12 6QZ
TELEPHONE:      +44 272 799910 x 24019

tbc@hp-lsd.COS.HP.COM (Tim Chambers) (01/11/90)

>Thanks for the info.  Do you know what Y-HP stands for ?

The correct acronym is YHP (no hyphen).  It stands for
"Yokogawa-Hewlett-Packard Ltd."  Someone else will have to explain the exact
history and ramifications to customers.  As an HP employee, I just think of it
as HP operations in Japan, just as Hewlett-Packard GmbH is in Germany,
Hewlett-Packard France is in France, etc.  We're all connected by one big,
happy HP-Internet!

kim@kannel.lut.fi (Kimmo Suominen) (01/11/90)

>>>>> On 9 Jan 90 10:58:39 GMT, jp@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Julian Perry) said:

Julian> I'm quite happy (though not ecstatic) with the version of elm in 7.0
Julian> (which I've been using for a few months) and the conversion of the rc
Julian> files was not a big problem - it took only a few moments and was a
Julian> one-off.

Julian> I have nothing against the Usenet version, but by using HP-Elm it
Julian> saves me having to compile and maintain the Usenet version.

We are using BSD Suns and HP-UX HP9000s in the same network with NFS mounted
home directories.  Having two different Elms would be disasterous.  With the
current situation as having Elm 2.2 PL14 (soon PL15) on all the systems
there's no trouble and all the rc-files are similar.

There's no way I would give up on this uniformity around here (that is: I'll
throw away the Y-HP Elm as soon as it'll arrive).

Kim
--
 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
( Kimmo Suominen        ! Lappeenranta U of Technology ! kim@kannel.lut.fi )
( "That's what I think" ! Computing Centre  *  Finland ! Funet: KUULA::KIM )
 ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

mikef@hp-ptp.HP.COM (Mike_Forman) (01/13/90)

YHP Stands for Yokogawa Hewlett-Packard, and it is a joint venture,
not a subsidiary of HP per se.  Yokogawa Electric Works owns 25%,
and HP owns 75%.  At inception, the split was 51% YEW, 49% HP, but
Japanese law changed to allow foreign companies to own a majority
stake in joint ventures.

Hope this helps.