rclark@speclab.bgp-usgs.gov (Roger N. Clark) (02/28/90)
The handwriting is on the wall:
HP 9000 series 800 computers are NOT upgradable for practical prices!
Carefully look at upgrade prices and available (and what isn't
available) peripherals before you buy an 800 machine.
This is a general flame at the pricing and direction policy of HP
with the HP9000 series 800 computers.
It is apparent that series 800 computer owners are getting screwed
and the screw job is going to get worse. For those of us who got
screwed with the 500 and "upgraded" to the 800 it will be an extra
bitter pill to swallow.
I currently have an HP 9000 series 825. I need read/write optical,
DAT, lots of disk, X-windows, and terminals for my research group.
I would like to upgrade to an 835, with possibly an expander but the
prices are OUTRAGEOUS. In fact, you can buy whole new workstations
for less than the price of a cpu upgrade! An expander box costs
much more than a workstation. I fail to see 1) the logic, or 2) the
justification except that HP wants about 4 gazillion percent profit.
Does HP think the 800 series owners are locked in and will pay such
outrageous prices?
Now (and for the last year) new peripherals are being introduced
with no HP-IB capability. For example, there is no read/write
optical from HP with HP-IB.
Just introduced is the DAT tape drive: $5,700 with SCSI interface,
but $7,500 with HP-IB. Traditionally, HP's HP-IB interfaces have
been very low cost, so why is the SCSI so much less? The reason is
that HP is phasing out HP-IB (the writing is on the wall, and I've
been told that by HP salesmen). But there is currently NO SCSI for
the 800 series.
But you say SCSI for the 800 will be out soon. So what, all my
slots are full. Buy an expander. The 825 expander costs $16,000.
That is simply outrageous. An 815 with a 12 slot box (basically an
835 cpu) is only $14,900.
To upgrade from an 825 to 835 is $19,500, but you can't use an
expander. To upgrade to a 835 with an expander (and deleting all
user upgrades, memory and battery backup options) costs $41,575!
To upgrade to an 845: forget it!
What are we going to do with all our HP-IB peripherals? I can see
the day coming when you will get an op-sys update and HP-IB will no
longer be supported.
In contrast, look at the 300 series computers. An upgrade from a
330 to 370 (deleting memory add-ons, and HP-IB, but returning 330
board) is only $6,325 and an expander is only $2,455 more. My HP
salesman has told me about "special" upgrade programs where 300
owners have had to pay only about $2k to upgrade to the 370.
Similar upgrades are anticipated for the 375 (I have only a Nov 1989
price list).
About to come out is the 68040, whose speed is reported to be some 3
MFLOPS, 1.5x an 835. So the 300 users will be blazingly fast with
very low cost upgrades while the 800 users are stuck on slow
machines because upgrades cost much more than new computers.
This is not the first time this has happened. HP9000 series 500
owners found themselves having to buy 800 series machines. How many
of you actually used the upgrade program? We didn't because for
about 60K worth of equipment, we got about 5K trade-in value on an
800 (plus about $5k for software trade in). We still have all our
500s running.
************************************************************
WHAT 800 users would like to see (at least this is my view):
************************************************************
Series 800 upgrade paths that are similar to the 300:
1) a cpu board upgrade should cost a fraction of a new workstation.
2) an expander should cost a small fraction of a new workstation
(not all of us want to put 400 users on--I need multiple
interfaces for disks--preferably one per disk to maximize
I/O throughput--I've tested it and it helps a LOT).
HP-IB: if HP wants to phase out the HP-IB interface, fine, but give
us a path to upgrade existing peripherals. Existing disks and
tapes should be field upgradable for a nominal fee to SCSI. For
example, about $700 per unit (HP7974, HP7963, HP7937, HP9145, etc).
HP shouldn't expect users to throw out their existing disk drives
(especially ones only one or two years old) and run out and buy SCSI
ones.
Consequences: many existing (800) customers have been burned once
(with the 500). Many won't tolerate being burned again. I know the
next procurement I do, I'll specify upgrade paths. It's more
paperwork, but at least I won't have to go buy a new system every
three years. With those specifications, HP 9000 series 800 machines
won't be able to compete in a normal fair open procurement.
Right now it looks cheaper to go and buy another vendor's system
(like a sparcstation or DECstation, or the new IBM) than it will cost
to upgrade a 800 series HP computer. What will the users
do? Is HP pricing themselves right out of the workstation market?
The word I hear from HP people is the reason that the 800 upgrades
are priced so high is because real businesses (like banks) will pay the
price. Well the workstation market is different--and the users will go
where the price is best. HP hardware and software may be very good, but
other machines are VERY popular too.
What will be the prices for the next generation of workstations
(rumors in the computer newspapers say HP will introduce 100 MIPS
workstations by the end of this year). And since those are rumored
to be precision architecture, it implies an upgrade path for 800
owners. However, it is also rumored to be using EISA bus. Smells
like were are being set up: we are going to have to buy a whole new
computer and there will be no practical upgrade path for 800 owners.
Well, I'm already mad as hell over the current prices. I'll find a
vendor with reasonable upgrade paths, and using fair and open
competition.
DEC: how about a trade-in program to woo HP 800 owners to your machines?
SUN?
Others?
<disclaimer>
Any opinions expressed here mine and do not necessarily reflect
those of my employer.
*flame off*
Roger N. Clark
rclark%speclab.uucp@csm9a.colorado.edu # Internetrjn@hpfcso.HP.COM (Bob Niland) (03/03/90)
re: > The handwriting is on the wall: > HP 9000 series 800 computers are NOT upgradable for practical prices! > Carefully look at upgrade prices and available (and what isn't > available) peripherals before you buy an 800 machine. Roger, Thank you for your comments. As it happens, Series 800 upgrades and the future of HP-IB are hot topics at HP just now. I will see that your article is distributed to the appropriate parties. Regards, Hewlett-Packard Bob Niland 3404 East Harmony Road rjn%hpfcrjn@hplabs.HP.COM Fort Collins UUCP: [hplabs|hpu*!hpfcse]!hpfcla!rjn CO 80525-9599 This response does not represent the official position of, or statement by, the Hewlett-Packard Company.