burzio@mmlai.UUCP (Tony Burzio) (10/20/90)
Some people have written to me suggesting that we get HPs new VUE window manager to get all the nifty OpenLook-like programs. I have several objections to the way HP is handling this product. First, I am concerned about reliability of the software (never thought I would say that :-). We have one HP that has the pre-loaded HP-UX with a few X programs included. Normally, the HP-UX you get on tape is the most stable UNIX I have used. The pre-loaded variety, however, is the most unstable crash-prone fill-up-your-disk system I have seen. During our sea trials, the system had to be rebooted several times a day to cure serious problems. What a terrible thing to do to the novice user, the intended audience for pre-loaded HP-UX. The defaults configuration of X is also very hard, since everything is different from normal X. Would Vue be as buggy? The demo I saw indicates it may well be... Second, the user interface IS the machine, not a tack on. One would have thought that Apple would be a good example to emulate. They provide (note to HP management types: with a higher price) a user included interface that is fool-proof. Last I saw Apple was doing pretty well. Remember, for new customers adding VUE is easier, since you can slip it in to the capital equipment price. Try explaining to your boss that you need a couple of more grand here, a couple of more grand there for a user interface, when the Sun guy down the hall got his user interface for free! Oh well, off to twist my boss's arm to scrape up the $5000 for UIMX, plus maybe VUE and Softbench and... I can hear him now, "Why not just get a Sun and get a user interface for free, plus loads of free software?" I don't have a good answer for that. ********************************************************************* Tony Burzio * B-d-b-d-b-d-b- that's all folks! Martin Marietta Labs * mmlab!burzio@uunet.uu.net * *********************************************************************
evgabb@sdrc.UUCP (Rob Gabbard) (10/22/90)
From article <38@gauss.mmlai.UUCP>, by burzio@mmlai.UUCP (Tony Burzio): > ........................First, I am concerned about reliability > ......... Would Vue be as buggy? The demo I saw indicates > it may well be... I have been using HP-VUE under HP-UX 7.0.3 on an HP400s Turbo VRX for about a month now. I can assure you it is very stable. I have never crashed the system and everything seems to be working as documented. VUE is a wonder to work with. I have always considered myself a "power" user, not having much need for desktop manager's (they only got in the way). But VUE is the first one that I have really been able to use. Its robust customization allows you to make almost any application use "drag-and-drop" features as long as it can accept its data as command line arguments. I will admit that I have not used OpenWindows 2.0 on a daily basis like I do VUE but I have played around with it a bit and didn't find it as much too my liking as VUE. Its about time somebody in the UNIX world implemented a multi-screen facility much like I'm used to on the Amiga. VUE has a workspace management facility that essentially gives you 6 screens on each display. The control panel at the bottom of the screen allows you to toggle between them. I think Xerox's ROOMS uses a similar concept. VUE's object orientated action database definition method is real powerful and easy to use as well. The only big complaint I have so far is that the file manager is a little slow at updating itself once you delete or add a file. They redraw all of the icons every time this occurs. They need to work on some kind of piecewise update. > Second, the user interface IS the machine, not a tack on. > Last I saw Apple was doing pretty well. Remember, for new > customers adding VUE is easier, since you can slip it in to > the capital equipment price. Try explaining to your boss > that you need a couple of more grand here, a couple of more > grand there for a user interface, when the Sun guy down the > hall got his user interface for free! This is quoted from the April 1990 Workstation magazine, a monthly HP/Apollo based independent magazine, reprinted here without permission: "HP said it will bundle VUE with its Instant Ignition program for new customers and will sell it to existing HP-UX and Domain/OS users for $550. When HP ships HP-UX 8.0 and Domain/OS 11.0 sometime in 1991, VUE will be bundled with the operating system." This is a good way for them to test the waters. Anyone remenber OpenWindows 1.0 >:-( ? The one thing I think HP needs to do is to bundle in the X wrapper around xdb that is supplied with HP SoftBench. Almost every other vendor has a GUI-based debugger bundled in with their OS now - Sun has dbxtool, SGI has EDGE, DEC has dxdb, Apollo has dde (even the old Apollo debugger had some kind of a GUI). I think they also need a GUI based mail tool bundled in. Elm with the HPterm buttons is nice but it still has a curses-based heart :-) The best GUI-based mailer I have ever seen (this kills me to say this) is the DECWindows-based VMS mailer. -- Rob Gabbard (uunet!sdrc!evgabb) Technical Development Engineer Structural Dynamics Research Corp
dave@dptechno.UUCP (Dave Lee) (10/23/90)
In article <38@gauss.mmlai.UUCP> burzio@mmlai.UUCP (Tony Burzio) writes: >Some people have written to me suggesting that we get HPs >new VUE window manager to get all the nifty OpenLook-like <stuff deleted>... >normal X. Would Vue be as buggy? The demo I saw indicates >it may well be... Well, I dont know about buggy, but the first thing I did when I got my 400 was turn off vue. I just dont like waiting > 2 minutes for a login prompt, then another 2 for my csh to run. And the size of vue + friends is enormous size /usr/bin/X11/vue* sez ... /usr/bin/X11/vuefile: 1145544 + 175564 + 75412 = 1396520 /usr/bin/X11/vuehelp: 1024104 + 164768 + 73584 = 1262456 /usr/bin/X11/vuestyle: 1074828 + 182640 + 75940 = 1333408 /usr/bin/X11/vuewm: 1211464 + 191236 + 73024 = 1475724 No wonder my little 8 megs arn't enough to run even the window manager without swapping/pagging like christmas shopping.... I guess the official answer is .... get that ram !!! Give me uwm any day. Just one positive note, those fancy login screens do look nice !!! But, I'd rather get a quick "ugly" (read simple) login than wait forever for a bunch of star wars effects. >Oh well, off to twist my boss's arm to scrape up the $5000 for >UIMX, plus maybe VUE and Softbench and... I can hear him now, Hold on here! Does this mean that Softbench requires VUE ? Please someone, say this isn't so ! -- Dave Lee uunet!dptechno!dave
jbb@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Jim B. Byers) (10/23/90)
>Oh well, off to twist my boss's arm to scrape up the $5000 for >UIMX, plus maybe VUE and Softbench and... I can hear him now, >"Why not just get a Sun and get a user interface for free, plus >loads of free software? I am not sure what your point is here about UIMX. Are you saying that there is some free unsupported software that will do what it does on Sun? I am not aware of any such free software that will allow you to develop and *test* your application. There are a few tools out there that let you interactively lay out your interface and then spit out this description. Although this is probably better than nothing, this really isn't sufficient if you need to test and maintain your code. In addition to interactive testing of the appearance *and behavior* of the interface; HP Interface Architect (product name for UIMX plus HP's Motif generating software) can also generate straight portable Motif code. Note: This feature was not in the Beta code. Or are you saying that this class of software (sophisticated interface builders that do more than just layout) should be bundled because every developer needs it and you would be willing to pay more for the bundled development system? What is your point here? Jim Byers Interface Technology Operation "The X11/Motif/Vue/Architect folks in Corvallis"
will@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (David A. Williams) (10/23/90)
Tony Burzio at Martin Marietta Labs writes: > ... First, I am concerned about reliability > of the software (never thought I would say that :-). We > have one HP that has the pre-loaded HP-UX with a few X > programs included. Normally, the HP-UX you get on tape is > the most stable UNIX I have used. The pre-loaded variety, > however, is the most unstable crash-prone fill-up-your-disk > system I have seen. During our sea trials, the system had > to be rebooted several times a day to cure serious problems. As the product manager for HP VUE, I am concerned you are having this experience. Since I have not heard of buggy behavior from any other source (it's wonderful having a product where all the phone calls are complements) I wonder if you have an earlier pre-release copy of the software or if you have a very unusual system configuration. Can you give more information about what you are doing and the kinds of bugs? (You may wish to correspond with me directly or for even faster response, get you HP support organization involved.) While I am confident HP VUE is not the problem, I will not excuse HP VUE until we are certain it is innocent. > What a terrible thing to do to the novice user, the intended > audience for pre-loaded HP-UX. Indeed it would be and we went to great lengths to avoid doing so. Again, this seems to be a singularity so lets find the problem. > ... The defaults configuration > of X is also very hard, since everything is different from > normal X.... I disagree that everything is different from "normal X" even though we did have to add a number of resources to allow the user to have customization control over the extended features HP VUE brings to the workstation. > --Second, the user interface IS the machine, not a tack on. > One would have thought that Apple would be a good example to > emulate. They provide (note to HP management types: with a > higher price) a user included interface that is fool-proof. > Last I saw Apple was doing pretty well. Remember, for new > customers adding VUE is easier, since you can slip it in to > the capital equipment price. Try explaining to your boss > that you need a couple of more grand here, a couple of more > grand there for a user interface, when the Sun guy down the > hall got his user interface for free! > > Oh well, off to twist my boss's arm to scrape up the $5000 for > UIMX, plus maybe VUE and Softbench and... I can hear him now, > "Why not just get a Sun and get a user interface for free, plus > loads of free software?" I don't have a good answer for that. The only people who are paying for HP VUE are the ones who already have a machine. In this case, we rightfully get to recoup the cost of the tape, packaging, shipping, etc. If someone orders a new Series 400 with Instant Ignition, HP VUE is free. And with the advent of HP-UX 8.0, HP VUE will come bundled with all workstations, Instant Ignition or not. With this in mind, I am not certain what it is you are trying to say here. Dave Williams Product Manager Interface Technology Operation Hewlett-Packard
campbelr@hpcuha.cup.hp.com (Bob Campbell) (10/24/90)
>>Oh well, off to twist my boss's arm to scrape up the $5000 for >>UIMX, plus maybe VUE and Softbench and... I can hear him now, >Hold on here! Does this mean that Softbench requires VUE ? >Please someone, say this isn't so ! Not actually, but both use the same message server technology. Basically, Softbench and VUE are both going to use more than your 8 meg. I am not sure what the official word is, but personally would only recommend that either is used with at least 16 Mbytes of RAM and ~30-40 Mbytes of swap. What will work best for you depends upon your usage and what is actually running local to your system. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Campbell Some times I wish that I could stop you from campbelr@hpda.cup.hp.com talking, when I hear the silly things you say. Hewlett Packard - Elvis Costello
jbb@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Jim B. Byers) (10/25/90)
>>Oh well, off to twist my boss's arm to scrape up the $5000 for >>UIMX, plus maybe VUE and Softbench and... I can hear him now, >Hold on here! Does this mean that Softbench requires VUE ? >Please someone, say this isn't so ! It ain't so! Jim Byers Interface Technology Operation The X11/Motif/VUE Have you hugged your workstation today?
John.Hine@comp.vuw.ac.nz (John Hine) (10/25/90)
In article <31480001@hpcuha.cup.hp.com>, campbelr@hpcuha.cup.hp.com (Bob Campbell) writes: |> Not actually, but both use the same message server technology. |> Basically, |> Softbench and VUE are both going to use more than your 8 meg. I am |> not |> sure what the official word is, but personally would only recommend |> that |> either is used with at least 16 Mbytes of RAM and ~30-40 Mbytes of |> swap. |> Ouch! I thought VUE was going to make using Unix/X easy for the novice, but I can't see a 16Mb workstation (or an X-terminal and 16Mb elsewhere) for my secretary. I can see why HP would want to give the software away (or at handling cost anyway). jh -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Email: hine@comp.vuw.ac.nz Post: Dept. of Computer Science Phone: +64 4 715-328 Victoria University Fax: +64 4 712-070 P.O. Box 600, Wellington, NZ
chan@hpfcmgw.HP.COM (Chan Benson) (10/26/90)
>> ... The defaults configuration >> of X is also very hard, since everything is different from >> normal X.... > >I disagree that everything is different from "normal X" even though >we did have to add a number of resources to allow the user to >have customization control over the extended features HP VUE >brings to the workstation. I think what Tony is referring to is the fact that the files that control program resource defaults are mysteriously located somewhere under ~/.vue and are loaded automatically with xrdb. Changing defaults is no longer a matter of editing .Xdefaults. -- Chan Benson HP Fort Collins
bb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian Bartholomew) (10/26/90)
Tony Burzio at Martin Marietta Labs writes: >> ... First, I am concerned about reliability >> of the software (never thought I would say that :-). We >> have one HP that has the pre-loaded HP-UX with a few X >> programs included. Normally, the HP-UX you get on tape is >> the most stable UNIX I have used. The pre-loaded variety, >> however, is the most unstable crash-prone fill-up-your-disk >> system I have seen. During our sea trials, the system had >> to be rebooted several times a day to cure serious problems. In article <101950152@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com> will@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (David A. Williams) writes: >As the product manager for HP VUE, I am concerned you are >having this experience. Since I have not heard of buggy >behavior from any other source (it's wonderful having a >product where all the phone calls are complements) I wonder >if you have an earlier pre-release copy of the software or if >you have a very unusual system configuration. Can you >give more information about what you are doing and the kinds >of bugs? (You may wish to correspond with me directly or for >even faster response, get you HP support organization involved.) >While I am confident HP VUE is not the problem, I will >not excuse HP VUE until we are certain it is innocent. >Indeed it would be and we went to great lengths to avoid >doing so. Again, this seems to be a singularity so lets find >the problem. David, you just got your second confirmation. I will stand by all the claims in Tony's paragraph, and add a few of my own, like "seriously broken kernal on OS release tape". (Check out the kernal parameters for semaphore resources, used by networking daemons, using SAM - they look like bit-shift errors, with negitive numbers, numbers in the millions, etc. Then try to change them to match the suggestions in the SAM help screens, and find out you can't, because SAM interlocks on values to enforce consistancy, and it is believing the garbage values. Quit SAM in disgust, dig up the kernal configuration files, waste more time...) Based on what I have seen with the v7.0 release, I would say that there are a large number of drastic problems. Since you seem so confidant in your product, how about getting Tony to send you copies of his release tapes, and have your lab try an install from them? If he can't provide copies, I certainly can. Tony, how about keeping us on the net informed, say, every week or two, on the status of these problems? It should provide priceless information for those of us fighting with v7.0, and it might keep the problem report from going 'stale', or even being quietly closed. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew UUCP: ...gatech!uflorida!matrix.math.ufl.edu!bb University of Florida Internet: bb@matrix.math.ufl.edu -- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew UUCP: ...gatech!uflorida!matrix.math.ufl.edu!bb University of Florida Internet: bb@matrix.math.ufl.edu
defaria@hpclapd.HP.COM (Andy DeFaria) (10/27/90)
>/ hpclapd:comp.sys.hp / John.Hine@comp.vuw.ac.nz (John Hine) / 9:29 pm Oct 24, 1990 / > >In article <31480001@hpcuha.cup.hp.com>, campbelr@hpcuha.cup.hp.com (Bob >Campbell) writes: >|> Not actually, but both use the same message server technology. >|> Basically, >|> Softbench and VUE are both going to use more than your 8 meg. I am >|> not >|> sure what the official word is, but personally would only recommend >|> that >|> either is used with at least 16 Mbytes of RAM and ~30-40 Mbytes of >|> swap. >|> > >Ouch! I thought VUE was going to make using Unix/X easy for the novice, >but I can't see a 16Mb workstation (or an X-terminal and 16Mb elsewhere) >for my secretary. I can see why HP would want to give the software away >(or at handling cost anyway). Bob wrote that using Softbench AND VUE would require more than 8 meg. I don't think your secretary will be using Softbench. I'm not sure but I think that VUE will run with 8 meg, albeit slower, but after all how much number-crunching and heavy editting of large files, compiles, links, etc to you expect a secretary to do? I do believe that VUE and 8 meg will do just fine given the demand that a secretary would ask of a workstation. Now an engineer might put more stress on the workstation, use Softbench and require the extra 8 meg. Andrew "I'm not sure cause I've got 16 meg" DeFaria
SQuinn@massey.ac.nz (S.K. Quinn) (10/29/90)
In article <1990Oct27.001247.7540@actrix.co.nz> paul@actrix.co.nz (Paul Gillingwater) writes >In article <1990Oct25.042940.15821@comp.vuw.ac.nz> hine@comp.vuw.ac.nz (John Hine) writes: >> Ouch! I thought VUE was going to make using Unix/X easy for the novice, >> but I can't see a 16Mb workstation (or an X-terminal and 16Mb elsewhere) >> for my secretary. I can see why HP would want to give the software away >> (or at handling cost anyway). >Massey University are running VUW in 12 Mb quite happily... It takes approximately 1 minute from logging in to start VUE. As this workstation is going to support 4 diskless workstations running case tools and doing some database serving as well, I can see us not using VUE at all for performance reasons. We will probably use the MOTIF window manager. Some experimentation is required. Stephen Quinn Systems Programmer MIS Massey University --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The above is my own personal opinion. -- Stephen K Quinn S.K.Quinn@massey.ac.nz MIS Phone (063) 69099 x 8344 Massey University Fax (063) 505603
campbelr@hpcuha.cup.hp.com (Bob Campbell) (10/30/90)
> It takes approximately 1 minute from logging in to start VUE. As this > workstation is going to support 4 diskless workstations running case > tools and doing some database serving as well, I can see us not using VUE > at all for performance reasons. We will probably use the MOTIF window > manager. Some experimentation is required. I think that you might find vuewm and mwm to be oddly similar in size . . . I should explain my posting by saying that when using some features of VUE (i.e. dragging a file icon to the waste basket for a file deletion) you are actually using multiple tools. These tools tend to eat memory, but are ideal for some people (like a non-technical secretary who doesn't want to learn Unix). Different people will have different opinions on what tools are useful and what performance is acceptable. Softbench and VUE are not mindless memory pigs, but with them you will ask your systems to do more than they have been doing. When you have 6 virtual screens, you will start to fill them up. And you will run more file browsers, editors and debuggers without thinking about it. But then, you can never have enough cpu/memory/disk/lan . . . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Campbell Some times I wish that I could stop you from campbelr@hpda.cup.hp.com talking, when I hear the silly things you say. Hewlett Packard - Elvis Costello
bcripe@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Brian E. Cripe) (10/30/90)
> David, you just got your second confirmation. I will stand by all the > claims in Tony's paragraph, and add a few of my own, like "seriously > broken kernal on OS release tape". (Check out the kernal parameters for > semaphore resources, used by networking daemons, using SAM - they look > like bit-shift errors, with negitive numbers, numbers in the millions, > ... > > Based on what I have seen with the v7.0 release, I would say that there > are a large number of drastic problems. ... I think there is some miscommunication happening here. David Williams is talking about the stability of VUE and Brian Bartholomew is talking about problems with HP-UX 7.0 and SAM. While I am sure that David is concerned about problems with any aspects of HP-UX, his statement about lack of problems applies specifically to VUE. (Right David?) Brian Cripe Hewlett-Packard