[comp.sys.hp] HP bias's

nick@sura.net (Nick Lemberos) (04/13/91)

>From: lang@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John J. Lang)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
>Subject: Re: Switching from Sun to HP: some general questions
>Message-ID: <7370361@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>
>Date: 12 Apr 91 18:56:48 GMT
>References: <JJC.91Apr8133840@jclark.UUCP>
>Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
>Lines: 41
...<stuff deleted>...

Does anyone else notice any problem with the following statements?


>> How about the keyboard and mouse?  How noisy/hot would a system with
>> two internal 400Mb disks be?  Would it be reasonably pleasant in an
>> office environment?
>I have had both sitting on/under my desk, and have not noticed a problem.
>I find the keyboard and mouse to be fine.
>> Does it connect directly to thinwire ethernet?
>Yes.
>> How reliable is the standard C compiler?  Are the higher optimization
>> levels sufficiently reliable to be usable?  Is ANSI C included with
>> HPUX or available separately?
>We compile about a 'billion' lines of graphics code with the standard C
>compiler, using full optimization.  There have been problems in the
>past, most have been fixed, a few have been worked around.
>I think ANSI C is included, and uses the same optimizer.

HP mice are "fine"? (they stink)  Wow, someone at HP compiles billions
of lines of HP code on a HP box and it works, im impressed.  How about
all you ppl from HP preaching HP *ATLEAST* put some sort of disclaimer 
in your Emails. 

This is not the only example I have seen in the last week.  It is getting 
pretty bad.  It makes a difference if the opinions expressed are coming
from employees of the same company.  Since this is comp.sys.HP, how about HP
employees making it REAL clear whose opinion they state.

                         nick

nick@umuc.umd.edu
These are MY comments.

rog@hpdtczb.HP.COM (Roger Haaheim) (04/15/91)

=-> / hpdtczb:comp.sys.hp / nick@sura.net (Nick Lemberos) /  5:10 pm  Apr 12, 1991 /
=-> 
=-> This is not the only example I have seen in the last week.  It is getting 
=-> pretty bad.  It makes a difference if the opinions expressed are coming
=-> from employees of the same company.  Since this is comp.sys.HP, how about HP
=-> employees making it REAL clear whose opinion they state.
=-> 
=->                          nick
=-> nick@umuc.umd.edu
=-> These are MY comments.
=-> ----------

I guess I don't understand your request.  Whenever I post anything to any
notesstring, it's pretty obvious who I am and who I work for.  Perhaps an
IMHO should be attached?  I tend to assume everything is the opinion of
the writer.  Shouldn't I?

mike@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Mike McNelly) (04/15/91)

> >From: lang@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John J. Lang)
> >Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
> >Subject: Re: Switching from Sun to HP: some general questions
> >Message-ID: <7370361@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>
> >Date: 12 Apr 91 18:56:48 GMT
> >References: <JJC.91Apr8133840@jclark.UUCP>
> >Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
> >Lines: 41
> ...<stuff deleted>...
> 
> Does anyone else notice any problem with the following statements?


> >> How about the keyboard and mouse?  How noisy/hot would a system with
> >> two internal 400Mb disks be?  Would it be reasonably pleasant in an
> >> office environment?
> >I have had both sitting on/under my desk, and have not noticed a problem.
> >I find the keyboard and mouse to be fine.
> >> Does it connect directly to thinwire ethernet?
> >Yes.
> >> How reliable is the standard C compiler?  Are the higher optimization
> >> levels sufficiently reliable to be usable?  Is ANSI C included with
> >> HPUX or available separately?
> >We compile about a 'billion' lines of graphics code with the standard C
> >compiler, using full optimization.  There have been problems in the
> >past, most have been fixed, a few have been worked around.
> >I think ANSI C is included, and uses the same optimizer.

> HP mice are "fine"? (they stink)  Wow, someone at HP compiles billions
> of lines of HP code on a HP box and it works, im impressed.  How about
> all you ppl from HP preaching HP *ATLEAST* put some sort of disclaimer 
> in your Emails. 

> This is not the only example I have seen in the last week.  It is getting 
> pretty bad.  It makes a difference if the opinions expressed are coming
> from employees of the same company.  Since this is comp.sys.HP, how about HP
> employees making it REAL clear whose opinion they state.

                         > nick

> nick@umuc.umd.edu

Nick, I think if you'll look at the top part of you posting you'll see
the company name is fairly prominently displayed.  Most of the postings
to the net contain both a signature and an email address which I had
previously assumed people could decipher.  If you see any email or
posting from *.hp.com it's a strong clue where it came from.

Lots of our most critical customers are internal, I can assure you, and
we don't take loyalty oaths.  You're free to read anything into our
postings that you wish.  I think the author of the note you quoted was
trying to make an honest effort to help the requester.

Mike McNelly
mike@fc.hp.com	(That's Hewlett Packard Company)

nick@sura.net (Nick Lemberos) (04/16/91)

In article <7370367@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> mike@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Mike McNelly) writes:
>> >From: lang@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John J. Lang)
>> >Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
<deleted>
>
>> This is not the only example I have seen in the last week.  It is getting 
>> pretty bad.  It makes a difference if the opinions expressed are coming
>> from employees of the same company.  Since this is comp.sys.HP, how about HP
>> employees making it REAL clear whose opinion they state.
>
>                         > nick
>
>> nick@umuc.umd.edu
>
>Nick, I think if you'll look at the top part of you posting you'll see
>the company name is fairly prominently displayed.  Most of the postings
>to the net contain both a signature and an email address which I had
>previously assumed people could decipher.  If you see any email or
>posting from *.hp.com it's a strong clue where it came from.
>
>Lots of our most critical customers are internal, I can assure you, and
>we don't take loyalty oaths.  You're free to read anything into our
>postings that you wish.  I think the author of the note you quoted was
>trying to make an honest effort to help the requester.
>
>Mike McNelly
>mike@fc.hp.com	(That's Hewlett Packard Company)
 
if a post comes from *.hp.com i should assume that it comes from an 
HP employee? Should i assume this person is knowlegeable of what he speaks?
Should i also assume he is not an HP sales rep?  I guess there are no
spouses, friends or relatives on hp.com.

What im trying to say is, if this group is about Kmart, and u work 
for Kmart, dont u think it should make it very clear if you are on the
clock or not?  Are you expressing your personal opinion or the companies?

                              nick

ps: i apologize to the previous poster if he knew not what he was doing.

nick@umuc.umd.edu
my opinions

campbelr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com (Bob Campbell) (04/17/91)

> HP mice are "fine"? (they stink) 

I have used mice on several systems, I hate them all.

That said, I use an HP 46060A two button mouse on my workstation.  It
has never had any mechanical problems of any kind and under HP VUE is
quickly and easily configured to the way I like it.  Slides easily
and is suited for left or right hand.

What is your complaint?  Maybe we can fix it in the future or suggest a
way to connect what you prefer to the system.

>                                   Wow, someone at HP compiles billions
> of lines of HP code on a HP box and it works, im impressed.  How about
> all you ppl from HP preaching HP *ATLEAST* put some sort of disclaimer 
> in your Emails. 

There are many HP boxes.  Once you get it on one you should find it easy
to run on others (often without recompile).  Anyone who works on large
systems is stressing the hardware, compilers and OS.  That you should
take *.hp.com responses as biased should be a given, but oddly enough
we do have a bit of experience at porting to HP systems.

> This is not the only example I have seen in the last week.  It is getting 
> pretty bad.  It makes a difference if the opinions expressed are coming
> from employees of the same company.  Since this is comp.sys.HP, how about HP
> employees making it REAL clear whose opinion they state.

Speaking for myself, I am proud of the quality of our products.  I have
used systems from every product line and all of our operating systems.
I will agree that we don't always get the features out as quickly as
someone with less of a focus on quality, but many of our customers
depend on our hardware and software reliability.  Those of us who
post/email responses to comp.sys.hp are not going to reap personal
profits from selling you anything.  When we post we state our OWN
opinion and not that of the Hewlett Packard Company.

>                         nick

> nick@umuc.umd.edu
> These are MY comments.

Your posting sounds as if something set you off.  Please remember
that most of us here are ineloquent techies.  We have a product (S700)
that has many of us excited, and don't always know that much about
the competition.  We all post our own opinions, when the Company
posts, it has the unmistakable touch of lawyers.  If there is
anything I can help you with, please feel free to send email.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Campbell                Some times I wish that I could stop you from
campbelr@hpda.cup.hp.com    talking, when I hear the silly things you say.
Hewlett Packard                                    - Elvis Costello

dhepner@hpcuhc.cup.hp.com (Dan Hepner) (04/17/91)

From: nick@sura.net (Nick Lemberos)
 
>Are you expressing your personal opinion or the companies?

It is never unclear on the net whose opinion is being stated.  Employees
do not speak for their companies; students do not speak for their
universities.

Never.

Dan Hepner 

dlow@pollux.svale.hp.com (Danny Low) (04/17/91)

>(Nick Lemberos) 
>if a post comes from *.hp.com i should assume that it comes from an 
>HP employee? Should i assume this person is knowlegeable of what he speaks?
>Should i also assume he is not an HP sales rep?  I guess there are no
>spouses, friends or relatives on hp.com.

Yes. You can assume anything you want about anyone's knowledge. If you
expect someone to lie to you because he works for HP, it's irrelevant
whether he is a sale rep or not. The only spouses, friends or relatives
on hp.com are also HP employees. HP is a profit making company. It has
rules about freeloading off the company unlike colleges that are much
more indulgent in letting people abuse their facilities.

			     Danny Low
	        North America Personal Computer Division
	               dlow@pollux.svale.hp.com
		          HP4200/29 720-3622

khb@chiba.Eng.Sun.COM (Keith Bierman fpgroup) (04/17/91)

>clock or not?  Are you expressing your personal opinion or the companies?

One should always assume that a posting is the personal position of
the poster.

If it is commonly understood otherwise, management (of any sane
company) will restrict posting privs.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Keith H. Bierman    keith.bierman@Sun.COM| khb@chiba.Eng.Sun.COM
SMI 2550 Garcia 12-33			 | (415 336 2648)   
    Mountain View, CA 94043

nick@sura.net (Nick Lemberos) (04/17/91)

In article <2190010@hpdtczb.HP.COM> rog@hpdtczb.HP.COM (Roger Haaheim) writes:
>=-> / hpdtczb:comp.sys.hp / nick@sura.net (Nick Lemberos) /  5:10 pm  Apr 12, 1991 /
>=-> 
>=-> Since this is comp.sys.HP, how about HP
>=-> employees making it REAL clear whose opinion they state.
>=-> 
>=->                          nick
>=-> nick@umuc.umd.edu
>=-> These are MY comments.
>=-> ----------
>
>I guess I don't understand your request.  Whenever I post anything to any
>notesstring, it's pretty obvious who I am and who I work for.  Perhaps an
>IMHO should be attached?  I tend to assume everything is the opinion of
>the writer.  Shouldn't I?

 When someone from HP says a system comes with a certain software 
package, or that the system does something, is that an opinion?
It wasnt/isnt clear to me.
 What i learned in the past week was:
   
     If it says *.hp.com in the header, it is an hp employee (no friends,
        relatives, but could be a janitor 8-)  Read the header.
     no one is offically representing HP when they post here
     nothing official is posted via this list
     Disclaimers dont mean anything
     
 since no one else seems to have a problem with the posts like i have 
had, ill assume that everyone knows that everything is an opinion and
to check w/ HP for the real scoop. (1-800-752-0900)
 
                                  nick
nick@socrates.umd.edu

ps: i still dont feel comfortable with all these assumtions, but i consider
    the topic dropped.
          

burdick@hpspdra.HP.COM (Matt Burdick) (04/19/91)

> HP mice are "fine"? (they stink) 

I have to agree - the box-style HP mice are very clumsy feeling.  I've
used the Microsoft mouse for some time now and have decided it has the
best feeling of any mouse I've used.  Just recently, I've seen some
new HP mice on some PC's and I really like them.  They're designed to
fit to the hand very nicely and have a light touch on the buttons.

Sorry, I don't know the part number.

							-matt
-- 
Matt Burdick                |   Hewlett-Packard
burdick@hpspd.spd.hp.com    |   Intelligent Networks Operation

tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Mike Taylor) (04/19/91)

> This is not the only example I have seen in the last week.  It is getting 
> pretty bad.  It makes a difference if the opinions expressed are coming
> from employees of the same company.  Since this is comp.sys.HP, how about HP
> employees making it REAL clear whose opinion they state.

I'm afraid that if you are expecting the corporate opinion, on most issues
you will not find it on notes.
 
>if a post comes from *.hp.com i should assume that it comes from an 
>HP employee? 

Yes, this is 99.9% safe assumption.

>Should i assume this person is knowlegeable of what he speaks?

I think one can usually tell the degree of knowledge a person has by
what they say or how they say it.  HP does not have any restrictions to
my knowledge about what I can say, within reason, on notes (and most of us 
would like it to stay that way).  HP is a very large company that employs 
90,000+ people and sells something like 10,000 products.  For this reason 
its hard to say if someone is an expert on a particular product.  
Historically, HP was in the early days essentially a company that 
consisted of several independent companies that just happened to all get 
paid from the same account.  HP is much more integrated and system 
oriented today, but that is where the company comes from. 

>Should i also assume he is not an HP sales rep?  

Yes, this assumption will be correct probably less than 5% of the time.
HP has been slow to get sales offices on Internet.  While most of them are
on now (I think), most have not yet had time to realize the value of 
reading notes.  Heck, even the marketing folks here at this factory don't 
even get in to read notes (with very limited exceptions) as much as I think 
they should.

>I guess there are no spouses, friends or relatives on hp.com.

Yes, this is 99.9% safe assumption (unless the spouse, friend or relative
also works at HP).

>What im trying to say is, if this group is about Kmart, and u work 
>for Kmart, dont u think it should make it very clear if you are on the
>clock or not?  Are you expressing your personal opinion or the companies?

Well we don't work for Kmart.  Not one of the people in this division
punch a clock.  I'm sure you mean this figuratively, but for a whole lot
of HP folks the distinction is not always clear.  For me, work is just
another activity in my life that I enjoy and happen to get paid for.  HP
hires people, not employees, and expressing my personal opinion is very
often a part of the job.  

Most of the HP people I know are very customer oriented and and do their
best to help out a customer.  From what I read in this post, what you got
was a reply from an HP customer, who also happens to work at HP.  I'm sure 
he'll think twice and get his reply approved by marketing the next time he 
thinks about giving some input to a customer, and I am not saying that to 
be flippant.  It is for this very reason that most HP engineers (the ones 
who can really help you) do not reply to comp.sys.hp.

At the risk of exposing more HP bias, if your original questions pertained
the new s700's, I am very impressed with the boxes.  Sure, I probably would 
not say so in this forum if I wasn't, but I would not state falacies and 
half-truths if I wasn't.  The s700 is an amazing improvement to our 9000 
line.  We can't hardly touch them because customer demand is so high.  I 
had the good fortune to have one ON MY OWN DESK for three days, which made 
it real hard to go back to my 370.  Of course I can't comment on the 
compiler, but X performance SCREAMS.  I'll have to agree with you somewhat 
on HP mice, but only because mine seem to need replacing about every year
or so.  Other than that they are just fine for my needs.  I think your 
concerns about the two internal disks may be legitimate, I have our 
operation's computer room to my left and our testing area immediately behind 
me so the noise/heat levels are already pretty high.  If I were you, I'd 
ask a local sales rep for a demo and weigh the price/performance against 
concerns like these.

BTW, I know nothing and if anyone asks me if I said this I'll deny it.
:-)


Peace,

Mike Taylor
Current Products Engineering & Online
Interface Technology Operation

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal!" 
                                                   - Zaphod Beeblebrox

harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom) (04/23/91)

In article <31480023@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com> campbelr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com
   (Bob Campbell) writes:

 =}Speaking for myself, I am proud of the quality of our products.

   As almost all major manufacturers are...

 =}I will agree that we don't always get the features out as quickly as
 =}someone with less of a focus on quality,

   ...or with the same focus on quality ...or with a greater focus on
quality...

   Maybe you should have said just plain 'slow'. And that 'slow' could
be qualified by the people who use HP boxes... (chances are that there
guess will be better than the above...)

Al

disclaimer: I am not an employee of HP. I am just an HP user who has
ported some of his own (and some written by others) to the HP. Any
opinions expressed are merely expressions of my frustration at dealing
with problems caused by the HP attitude...

harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom) (04/23/91)

 =}with problems caused by the HP attitude...

   Sorry about that, I meant a problem with the HP company attitude,
not that of it's employees (who are sometimes helpful)...

Al

mike@UC780.UMD.EDU (Mike Santangelo) (04/24/91)

In article <31480023@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com>, campbelr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com (Bob Campbell) writes:
>> HP mice are "fine"? (they stink) 
>
>I have used mice on several systems, I hate them all.
>
>That said, I use an HP 46060A two button mouse on my workstation.  It
>has never had any mechanical problems of any kind and under HP VUE is
>quickly and easily configured to the way I like it.  Slides easily
>and is suited for left or right hand.
>
>What is your complaint?  Maybe we can fix it in the future or suggest a
>way to connect what you prefer to the system.
>
>>                                   Wow, someone at HP compiles billions
>> of lines of HP code on a HP box and it works, im impressed.  How about
>> all you ppl from HP preaching HP *ATLEAST* put some sort of disclaimer 
>> in your Emails. 
>
>There are many HP boxes.  Once you get it on one you should find it easy
>to run on others (often without recompile).  Anyone who works on large
>systems is stressing the hardware, compilers and OS.  That you should
>take *.hp.com responses as biased should be a given, but oddly enough
>we do have a bit of experience at porting to HP systems.
>
>> This is not the only example I have seen in the last week.  It is getting 
>> pretty bad.  It makes a difference if the opinions expressed are coming
>> from employees of the same company.  Since this is comp.sys.HP, how about HP
>> employees making it REAL clear whose opinion they state.
>
>Speaking for myself, I am proud of the quality of our products.  I have
>used systems from every product line and all of our operating systems.
>I will agree that we don't always get the features out as quickly as
>someone with less of a focus on quality, but many of our customers
>depend on our hardware and software reliability.  Those of us who
>post/email responses to comp.sys.hp are not going to reap personal
>profits from selling you anything.  When we post we state our OWN
>opinion and not that of the Hewlett Packard Company.
>
>>                         nick
>
>> nick@umuc.umd.edu
>> These are MY comments.
>
>Your posting sounds as if something set you off.  Please remember
>that most of us here are ineloquent techies.  We have a product (S700)
>that has many of us excited, and don't always know that much about
>the competition.  We all post our own opinions, when the Company
>posts, it has the unmistakable touch of lawyers.  If there is
>anything I can help you with, please feel free to send email.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bob Campbell                Some times I wish that I could stop you from
>campbelr@hpda.cup.hp.com    talking, when I hear the silly things you say.
>Hewlett Packard                                    - Elvis Costello

Well put Bob.  After reading all of this, your point of view seems
quite accurate to me.  I myself have worked with many different
vendor's systems and operating systems over the last 10 years.  I
agree with your assertions about HP quality and its practical
conservativeness to keep it that way.

We have an HP9000/835 system and overall I can say we are quite pleased
with it.  We have indeed ported quite alot of software out their 'on the
net' and most things do port okay, the things that haven't are relatively
few and far between.  The system is used to teach UNIX, C, and database
concepts (using Informix) to our students.  We are the Adult Education
Center for the University of Maryland at College Park, so most of our clients
are From the Washington DC area.

By the way, I work with Nick Lemberos (he posts as nick@sura.net).
:^)
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Michael F. Santangelo                 + Inet: mike@uc780.umd.edu
VMS / UNIX Systems                    +       mike@socrates.umd.edu
Academic Computing UMUC               + Bnet: MIKE@UC780
(The University of Maryland,          +       MIKE@UMUC (not visited often)
 University College)                  +<Your clever net-phrase here>