[comp.sys.hp] Filenames in HP-UX

jim@cs.strath.ac.uk (Jim Reid) (04/25/91)

In article <101950205@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com> tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Mike Taylor) writes:

   It seems like it would be possible for your software to check to see if
   long filenames have been enabled during installation or startup by touching
   a 15+ character filename and checking the results.  Then tell the user to
   convert since some people don't until they have to

Come off it!

   (I haven't heard of any good reasons not to convert).

In that case, why not ship HP-UX with long filenames enabled by
default?

Wake up HP! Your customers like long filenames. Your kernel supports
them. It costs you next to nothing to have support for them switched
on by default. Your own staff see "no good reasons not to", so why not
just DO IT???

One of the most frustrating things I have experienced with HP-UX is
its pig-headed insistence on making everything look like System V
when the kernel is really BSD. It's a pity it took years for HP-UX to
give us job control and reliable signals even though the code was in
the kernel. Even now, customers don't get long filenames unless they
tweak things. [BTW, SVID compliance or System V compatibility arguments
justifying this are a nonsense. The HP-UX directory format is BSD, not
System V, even when the kernel is enforcing 14 character names.]

		Jim

jewett@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Bob Jewett) (04/29/91)

>   (I haven't heard of any good reasons not to convert).

> In that case, why not ship HP-UX with long filenames enabled by
> default?

Unfortunately, some applications were written assuming that HP-UX would
never support long filename systems.  Such programming was as
pigheadedly myopic as the orignal divergence of maximum filename length
between BSD and AT+T.  Other applications will not work on short
filename systems -- I'd say those are only slightly less broken.

Should a default have been changed when it was known to break existing
applications?

Bob
[Personal opinion, not an official, etc.]

tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Mike Taylor) (04/29/91)

>   It seems like it would be possible for your software to check to see if
>   long filenames have been enabled during installation or startup by touching
>   a 15+ character filename and checking the results.  Then tell the user to
>   convert since some people don't until they have to
>
>Come off it!
>
>   (I haven't heard of any good reasons not to convert).
>
>In that case, why not ship HP-UX with long filenames enabled by
>default?
>
>Wake up HP! Your customers like long filenames. Your kernel supports
>them. It costs you next to nothing to have support for them switched
>on by default. Your own staff see "no good reasons not to", so why not
>just DO IT???

I like long filenames too.  Almost everyone in our operation has switched
over.  I had always assumed there was some reason for not switching over
that I was not aware of.  I will discuss with my manager how I should most 
effectively lobby this change...


Peace,

Mike Taylor
Current Products Engineering & Online
Interface Technology Operation

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Surface:  Hewlett-Packard                 Internet:  tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com
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    "I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal!" 
                                                   - Zaphod Beeblebrox

chan@hpfcmgw.HP.COM (Chan Benson) (04/30/91)

> Wake up HP! Your customers like long filenames. Your kernel supports
> them. It costs you next to nothing to have support for them switched
> on by default. Your own staff see "no good reasons not to", so why not
> just DO IT???

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was stated previously in this
forum that with 8.0, long file names will be the default. I know the
MCF Snake I used at a third party came with long file names turned on
right out of the box.

		-- Chan 

My that was a nice nap. What's for dinner?

campbelr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com (Bob Campbell) (05/01/91)

>>    (I haven't heard of any good reasons not to convert).

> In that case, why not ship HP-UX with long filenames enabled by
> default?

A good reason is that there is no method to go from long to short 
filenames except for reinstalling.  

> Wake up HP! Your customers like long filenames. Your kernel supports
> them. It costs you next to nothing to have support for them switched
> on by default. Your own staff see "no good reasons not to", so why not
> just DO IT???

The HP staff you talked with probably didn't have a need for short
filenames, for that matter, some of the HP staff are Denver Bronco fans :-) 
I don't use them myself, but a customer with programs that had hardcoded 
filename length limits would be extremely pleased if we upgraded their 
systems to being nonfunctional.  

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Campbell                Some times I wish that I could stop you from
campbelr@hpda.cup.hp.com    talking, when I hear the silly things you say.
Hewlett Packard                                    - Elvis Costello

tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Mike Taylor) (05/04/91)

It has been brought to my attention that there are some legitimate
reasons why long filenames have not been the default on HP-UX systems.
On the s300, BASIC and UCSD Pascal OS's cannot handle long filenames.
Apparently a change to long filenames for these OS's would be extremely
hard, if not altogether impossible.

I'm going to let this dog lie unless I get a compelling reason to pursue
it further.  Most people I talk to feel that the switch is painless, but
then that is probably an HP bias.
 :-)


Peace,

Mike Taylor
Current Products Engineering & Online
Interface Technology Operation

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Surface:  Hewlett-Packard                 Internet:  tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com
	  1000 NE Circle Boulevard        UUCP:      {hpfcla}!hpcvlx!tay
	  Corvallis, Oregon 97330         Fax:       (503) 750-4980

    "I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal!" 
                                                   - Zaphod Beeblebrox

tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Mike Taylor) (05/08/91)

>Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was stated previously in this
>forum that with 8.0, long file names will be the default. I know the
>MCF Snake I used at a third party came with long file names turned on
>right out of the box.
>
>                -- Chan

The "Read Me Before Installing Your Apollo 9000 Model 720/730" that
came with an MCF Snake I used to set up some demos describes how some
customize scripts must be re-run for Starbase if you want to convert
the system to long filenames.  I didn't convert, I didn't check it out,
and I no longer have access to a s700, so I don't know if this is some
kind of a documentation error or if long filenames are actually turned
on.


Peace,

Mike Taylor
Current Products Engineering & Online
Interface Technology Operation

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Surface:  Hewlett-Packard                 Internet:  tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com
	  1000 NE Circle Boulevard        UUCP:      {hpfcla}!hpcvlx!tay
	  Corvallis, Oregon 97330         Fax:       (503) 750-4980

    "I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal!" 
                                                   - Zaphod Beeblebrox

hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu (Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy)) (05/10/91)

Painless, and irreversible... You do it once and forget it.

Greetings,
Hardy 
			  -------****-------
Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy);  Department of Physics, University of California
Irvine CA 92717; (714) 856 5543; hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu or MMAYER@UCI.BITNET