[comp.sys.hp] Switching from Sun to HP: some general questions

jjc@jclark.UUCP (James Clark) (04/08/91)

I've got a Sun Sparcstation 2 on order, and I'm thinking about
cancelling it and getting an HP 9000/730 instead.  I'm more than a
little bit nervous about switching over.  Although I'm generally fed
up with Sun, I've used their machines for several years, and I know
that they provide a reasonably pleasant working environment.  I have
generally warm feelings towards HP, and I've been very impressed by
the responsiveness of individual HP employees in this group, but I
really don't know much about HP workstations.  So I hope the net will
excuse some rather general novice questions. (I know I could probably
get answers to some of these from my salesman, but he didn't seem very
clued up.)

If I get some replies, I'll summarize to this group, since I suspect
there are other who have similar concerns to me.  If you reply but
don't want your remarks to appear in the summary, or want to remain
anonymous, please say so and I'll be glad to comply.  I've got a lot
of questions, but I would like to hear from you even if you want to
answer only one of them.

First a little bit of background.  I work mostly on free software (my
project for the last few years has been GNU groff); I write mainly in
C++.  I also run a uucp node.  The things that are important to me are
integer preformance, the quality of the available software development
tools, the quality of the window system and GUI, and the overall
robustness, standards conformance and functionality of the OS.
Integer performance is important, but it is by no means everything;
floating point performance is unimportant to me.

My main concern is about HPUX.  My second-hand impression of it is
that it's based on some old version of System V, and that it's a bit
old-fashioned and non-standard, and generally not quite as good as
SunOS.  Is this a fair assessment?

Does HPUX include DWB?

Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
Is it POSIX compliant?

With the 2-user version of HPUX, does a uucp login count as a user?
Does a rlogin count as a user?

Does uucp work reliably at 19200 bps? Is it a solid version of uucp?

Does HPUX provide lpr or does it only provide lp?  Does it support
PostScript printers?

Somebody said that OSF/1 was going to be available by the end of this
year.  Does this mean that a production version suitable for end users
will be available by then?  Does this mean HP will be shipping OSF/1
as their standard OS by then?  Will OSF/1 run HPUX binaries?

Is BSD 4.4 likely to be available?  If so, will the machine dependent
parts be freely redistributable?  If not, does HP document their
hardware enough that it would be possible for somebody to port it?

How good (fast, robust) is HP's implementation of X?  Does it include
all of X11R4?  Is it reasonably close to X11R4?  Does the MIT X11R4
distribution build on a 9000/730?  Is the R5 distribution likely to?
Do HP document their graphics hardware enough to port a window system?

How good is HP hardware and software support?  Is it reasonably
priced?  Can one access support by email?

How does HP's 19'' monitor compare to the Trinitron that Sun ships?
How about the keyboard and mouse?  How noisy/hot would a system with
two internal 400Mb disks be?  Would it be reasonably pleasant in an
office environment?  Does it connect directly to thinwire ethernet? Is
HP hardware generally reliable?

I'm concerned about exchanging data with people who don't have HPs.
Can I get a third party SCSI tape that handles Sun-compatible QIC-24
or QIC-150 tapes?

My salesman said that 400Mb was the biggest external disk that HP
offered on the 730.  This seems a bit on the small side.  Is HP likely
to offer bigger disks, or does it want me to buy a 750 if I need lots
of disk space?  Can I use third-party SCSI disks?

In addition to DAT, I was told there was a writable CD-ROM available
(C1701A or something like that).  Is this intended as an alternative
to DAT as a mass-backup device?  I suspect not, since it seems to be
slower, have lower capacity, and be more expensive than DAT.  Can it
mounted like a normal disk, or does one treat it like a tape?  Would
CD-ROMs written with this drive be readable with Sun's CD-ROM drive?

Are gcc and g++ available?  If not, do HP provide enough information
about their architecture that somebody could port them?  If so, is the
code quality competitive with HP?  How about gdb?  What debugging
format does HP use?  Is it COFF, stabs, or something peculiar to HP?
If the last, is it documented?  Does HP offer dbx?

How reliable is the standard C compiler?  Are the higher optimization
levels sufficiently reliable to be usable?  Is ANSI C included with
HPUX or available separately?

How good is HP's C++ (Softbench) offering?  Is it based on cfront 2.0
or 2.1?  How good is the debugger?  Is it as good as Saber C++?  Is
Saber C++ likely to become available?

In general, how easy is it to port free software to HPUX?  Most things
seem to port to SunOS with little effort.  To what extent is this true
of HPUX?

I would also be interested in any other random comments that you might
have about the relative merits of Sun and HP workstations.

If you've got this far, thanks for bearing with me.  This is an
important decision to me: any help you can provide really will be
appreciated.

James Clark
jjc@jclark.uucp
jjc%jclark@mcsun.eu.net
jjc@ai.mit.edu

tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) (04/09/91)

In article <JJC.91Apr8133840@jclark.UUCP> jjc@jclark.UUCP (James Clark) writes:

   First a little bit of background.  I work mostly on free software (my
   project for the last few years has been GNU groff); I write mainly in
   C++.

Many thanks for groff!  It compiles and works fine with HP C++ (both s300/400
and s800).

   My main concern is about HPUX.  My second-hand impression of it is
   that it's based on some old version of System V, and that it's a bit
   old-fashioned and non-standard, and generally not quite as good as
   SunOS.  Is this a fair assessment?

Well, not really.  The HP-UX kernel is as far as I know originally based on
BSD4.2.  The system call semantics have been changed to be SVID (and now,
POSIX) conformant, though.  User level programs are System V versions.  As for
standards, well... If you define "standard" as "SunOS" or "(pure) BSD," I
guess HP-UX isn't standard.  It does confirm to the *real* standards POSIX,
X/Open etc, though.

But you are right that SunOS does have some nice features that HP-UX hasn't
got (yet).  Like dynamic linking, enhanced ptrace(2), interesting new
filesystem types, automounter...  It's not fair to call these featrures
"standards," though.  On the other hand, the HP-UX approach to diskless
workstations might be better than SunOS's.

   Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
   Is it POSIX compliant?

Yes, yes.  Sure.

   Does HPUX provide lpr or does it only provide lp?  Does it support
   PostScript printers?

It has lp, but with support for remote printing (both as client and server).
You must put together your own PS interface model.  (Trivial, just a small
shell script, that could check if the stuff is already PS, and if not, pipe
through the ascii-to-PS filter of your choice.)

   How good (fast, robust) is HP's implementation of X?  Does it include
   all of X11R4?  Is it reasonably close to X11R4?  Does the MIT X11R4
   distribution build on a 9000/730?  Is the R5 distribution likely to?
   Do HP document their graphics hardware enough to port a window system?

I guess HP-UX 8.0 will have X11R4.  HP-UX 7.0 has X11R3, but you can get a
X11R4 server and pre-compiled clients and libraries by ftp.  Or compile X11R4
yourself.

   How does HP's 19'' monitor compare to the Trinitron that Sun ships?

HP ships Trinitron monitors, too.

   Are gcc and g++ available?  If not, do HP provide enough information
   about their architecture that somebody could port them?  If so, is the
   code quality competitive with HP?

There is a version of gcc for the Series 800 available from Utah.  The code
quality is not yet as good as that the HP compiler produces.

   What debugging format does HP use?  Is it COFF, stabs, or something
   peculiar to HP?  If the last, is it documented?  Does HP offer dbx?

It's something peculiar to HP, and not documented :-(.  HP doesn't offer dbx,
but xdb, which is different, but at least as good.  Then there is SoftBench, a
whizzy Motif-based interface you probably will get much glossy material on...
However, if you are short of resources (memory), remember that you can do
almost anything SoftBench does "by hand."

   In general, how easy is it to port free software to HPUX?  Most things
   seem to port to SunOS with little effort.  To what extent is this true
   of HPUX?

Depends on how the writer of the free software interprets the word "standard."
Most free software port fairly straightforward.  X software usually compiles
without changes.  Some software depend heavily on the more obscure
peculiarities of BSD or SunOS, and are thus more of a challenge.  It's
interesting to note that Andrew, however, seems to be easier to compile and
run on HP-UX (on the Series 300, alas) than on SunOS.
--
Tor Lillqvist,
working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland

beshers@cs.columbia.edu (Clifford Beshers) (04/09/91)

I'm sure everyone is going to hit on this one, but...

Yes, it does support long filenames.  You have to configure the
filesystems and the kernel correctly.
--
-----------------------------------------------
Clifford Beshers
450 Computer Science Department
Columbia University
New York, NY 10027
beshers@cs.columbia.edu

luism@genesis.Berkeley.EDU (Luis Miguel) (04/09/91)

In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi>, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
|> 
|>    Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
|>    Is it POSIX compliant?
|> 
|> Yes, yes.  Sure.
|> 
Baloney!!!. I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES NOT support long filenames
(A pain when untarring things with long filenames. In more than one
occasion the clipping of the name meant that some files were written
on top of others).


-- 
Luis Miguel. Computer Science Division, UC Berkeley.
arpanet: luis@postgres.Berkeley.EDU         
uucp: {ihnp4,decvax}!ucbvax!postgres!luis                    
at&t: (415) 642-8234

ba7@venus.ornl.gov (M. Lee Bailey III) (04/10/91)

In article <41652@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> luis@postgres.berkeley.edu writes:
>In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi>, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
>|> 
>|>    Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>|>    Is it POSIX compliant?
>|> 
>|> Yes, yes.  Sure.
>|> 
>Baloney!!!. I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES NOT support long filenames
>(A pain when untarring things with long filenames. In more than one
>occasion the clipping of the name meant that some files were written
>on top of others).
>
>
>-- 
>Luis Miguel. Computer Science Division, UC Berkeley.
>arpanet: luis@postgres.Berkeley.EDU         
>uucp: {ihnp4,decvax}!ucbvax!postgres!luis                    
>at&t: (415) 642-8234

Baloney!!!.  I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES support long filenames.
We, however, read the man page on convertfs(1M) in order to enable 
this feature.  


_M_._ _L_e_e_ _B_a_i_l_e_y_ _I_I_I_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _M_a_r_t_i_n_ _M_a_r_i_e_t_t_a_ _E_n_e_r_g_y_ _S_y_s_t_e_m_s_,_ _I_n_c_.
Internet:   _b_a_7_@_o_r_n_l_._g_o_v
  BITNET:   _B_I_T_N_E_T_%_"_b_a_7_@_o_r_n_l_s_t_c_"
Slo-Mail:   _P_._ _O_._ _B_o_x_ _2_0_0_9_,_ _O_a_k_ _R_i_d_g_e_,_ _T_e_n_n_e_s_s_e_e_ _ _3_7_8_3_1_-_8_2_0_3

luism@genesis.Berkeley.EDU (Luis Miguel) (04/10/91)

In article <41652@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, luism@genesis.Berkeley.EDU (Luis Miguel) writes:
|> In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi>, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
|> |> 
|> |>    Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
|> |>    Is it POSIX compliant?
|> |> 
|> |> Yes, yes.  Sure.
|> |> 
|> Baloney!!!. I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES NOT support long filenames
|> (A pain when untarring things with long filenames. In more than one
|> occasion the clipping of the name meant that some files were written
|> on top of others).
|> 

SORRY, this is wrong. HPUX does support long filenames as an option.
Next time I will not be so quick to speak........


-- 
Luis Miguel. Computer Science Division, UC Berkeley.
arpanet: luis@postgres.Berkeley.EDU         
uucp: {ihnp4,decvax}!ucbvax!postgres!luis                    
at&t: (415) 642-8234

hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu (Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy)) (04/10/91)

And how it supports longfilenames! (And tcsh even will spellcheck them
for you!).

Greetings,
Hardy 
			  -------****-------
Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy);  Department of Physics, University of California
Irvine CA 92717; (714) 856 5543; hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu or MMAYER@UCI.BITNET

puglia@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Paul Puglia) (04/10/91)

In article <41652@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> luis@postgres.berkeley.edu writes:
>In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi>, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
>|> 
>|>    Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>|>    Is it POSIX compliant?
>|> 
>|> Yes, yes.  Sure.
>|> 
>Baloney!!!. I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES NOT support long filenames
>(A pain when untarring things with long filenames. In more than one
>occasion the clipping of the name meant that some files were written
>on top of others).
>
>
>-- 
>Luis Miguel. Computer Science Division, UC Berkeley.
>arpanet: luis@postgres.Berkeley.EDU         
>uucp: {ihnp4,decvax}!ucbvax!postgres!luis                    
>at&t: (415) 642-8234

Untrue. I believe that even 6.5 supported long file names.  You have to 
convert your filesystem to use them though. Pages 6-63 thru 6-72 
in the HP-UX Systems Administration Tasks manual describes the procedure
for, and the consequences of making the change. 


Paul Puglia
Dept. of Civil Engineering
Columbia University

puglia@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu

riley@a243.even.ge.com (U-E59331-Dana Riley) (04/10/91)

luism@genesis.Berkeley.EDU (Luis Miguel) writes:

>In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi>, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
>|> 
>|>    Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>|>    Is it POSIX compliant?
>|> 
>|> Yes, yes.  Sure.
>|> 
>Baloney!!!. I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES NOT support long filenames
>(A pain when untarring things with long filenames. In more than one
>occasion the clipping of the name meant that some files were written
>on top of others).

I also run HPUX 7.0 and it does support long filenames.  Specifically,
short filenames is the default, but the disk can be configured to 
support long filenames.  At version 8.0 of HP-UX, it comes configured
for long filenames.

--
____________________________________________________________ 
|                                                           |
|  Dana M. Riley, Senior Analyst                            |
|  General Electric Aircraft Engines                        |

bigmac@erg.sri.com (Bryan McDonald) (04/10/91)

In article <41652@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> luis@postgres.berkeley.edu writes:
>In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi>, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
>|> 
>|>    Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>|>    Is it POSIX compliant?
>|> 
>|> Yes, yes.  Sure.
>|> 
>Baloney!!!. I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES NOT support long filenames
>(A pain when untarring things with long filenames. In more than one
>occasion the clipping of the name meant that some files were written
>on top of others).

Actually, HP-UX 7.0 goes both ways.  ;-)

The default is to stay with short file names, but you can convert the filesystem
to long file names at will.  Of course, you then have to worry about what other
HP sites that you interact with are doing, but that is another administrative
headache...


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan McDonald        |   Computer, Hardware, And Operations Support
bigmac@erg.sri.com    |                     CHAOS
                      |            ITAD - SRI International
                        
"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person."

mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) (04/10/91)

I work for HP, but am not an official spokesperson.  Take my comments
accordingly:

>My main concern is about HPUX.  My second-hand impression of it is
>that it's based on some old version of System V, and that it's a bit
>old-fashioned and non-standard, and generally not quite as good as
>SunOS.  Is this a fair assessment?

Obviously this is subjective.  The sources to HP-UX come from SVR2 as well as
BSD 4.2, and have had a *lot* of work done by HP.  The claims of "nonstandard"
mainly come from people who equate "standard" with BSD and/or SunOS.  The 700's
will come with some flavor of HP-UX 8.0, which will include shared libraries,
X11R4, Motif 1.1, and most other "modern" features.  Missing are some BSD
functions from the C library, and some things that require the separate AT&T
toolchest license (I think nmake falls into this class).

>Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>Is it POSIX compliant?

Yes on all counts, depending on how you define "POSIX compliant" - there are
many POSIX specs, and various different suites to measure compliance.  I
don't know our full story, but I know that 8.0 contains a lot of code in the
commands, libraries, and kernel for drafts 1 and 2.

>Does HPUX provide lpr or does it only provide lp?

lp - but the spooler accepts requests from Berkeley "lpr".  Is this actually
an issue?  They are plug compatible in many cases.

>Somebody said that OSF/1 was going to be available by the end of this
>year.  Does this mean that a production version suitable for end users
>will be available by then?  Does this mean HP will be shipping OSF/1
>as their standard OS by then?  Will OSF/1 run HPUX binaries?

The OSF picture is not clear.  OSF itself has said they don't intend to OSF/1
to be for end users - for developers only.  At least that's what I heard.
Don't believe everything you hear, particularly about OSF.  Don't expect HP-UX
to go away any time soon, though.

>Is BSD 4.4 likely to be available?  If so, will the machine dependent
>parts be freely redistributable?

Much of the BSD 4.4 development is being done on HP machines, so the answer to
the first question is undoubtedly yes.  You'll have to contact BSD as to the
"freely distributatble" stuff - I don't think HP has any involvement with the
port.

>How good (fast, robust) is HP's implementation of X?  Does it include
>all of X11R4?  Is it reasonably close to X11R4?  Does the MIT X11R4
>distribution build on a 9000/730?

Starting with 8.0, it is standard X11R4, except I don't think we include some
of the contributed stuff that we don't get a chance to test.  People have
indeed successfully compiled the MIT stuff directly.  As for speed, the posted
benchmarks should speak for themselves - the 730's X performance blows
everything else away.

>Does it connect directly to thinwire ethernet? Is
>HP hardware generally reliable?

Yes and yes - the reason many people couldn't get 400's for a while is that
the US Army was snatching them up to use in tanks in the gulf.

[ re: writable CD-ROM ]

Perhaps they were referring to the optical disk and the autochanger.  These
are not CD-ROM per se.  Your assessment is otherwise accurate, if we are
talking about the same thing - it is awkward for use as a backup device (but
it is not low capacity - the autochanger basically gives you removable media
and automatically switches between I believe 32 surfaces.  It can be mounted.
We use it for archiving sources and build environments.

>Are gcc and g++ available?

Yes, but are nowhere near as good as HP's in terms of generated code quality.
I've heard factors of 2 for gcc vs HP's cc on the 700.

>How about gdb?  What debugging
>format does HP use?  Is it COFF, stabs, or something peculiar to HP?
>If the last, is it documented?  Does HP offer dbx?

HP uses a proprietary debug format, and a debugger called "xdb".  "xdb" is
somewhat more powerful than "dbx", but some people find it harder to get used
to (it is not as freindly).  "xdb"'s biggest advantage is its unrivaled C++
support - if you use HP's C++.

>How reliable is the standard C compiler?  Are the higher optimization
>levels sufficiently reliable to be usable?  Is ANSI C included with
>HPUX or available separately?

Available separately, I think.  There will always be stories of optimizers
breaking code, and it is hard to get objective numbers.  The higher
optimization levels include some interprocedural stuff, so in addition to
any problems with the optimizer, it uncovers new classes of bugs in programs
being optimized (much in the same way register allocators found a lot of
people's uninitialized variables, the hard way).

>In general, how easy is it to port free software to HPUX?  Most things
>seem to port to SunOS with little effort.  To what extent is this true
>of HPUX?

If they don't have BSD dependencies, they port fine.  That is my gut
impression.

--------------
Marc Sabatella (marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com)
Disclaimers:
	2 + 2 = 3, for suitably small values of 2
	Bill and Dave may not always agree with me

mah@dec1.wu-wien.ac.at (Michael Haberler) (04/10/91)

In article <41652@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, luism@genesis.Berkeley.EDU (Luis Miguel) writes:
|> In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi>, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
|> |>
|> |>    Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
|> |>    Is it POSIX compliant?
|> |>
|> |> Yes, yes.  Sure.
|> |>
|> Baloney!!!. I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES NOT support long filenames

No baloney. Consult your FM on newfs and cvtfs. If you install hp-ux it's
hard to overlook the point where you're asked for long or short filenames.

- michael

dlj@hpfcdc.HP.COM (David Jobusch) (04/10/91)

/ hpfcdc:comp.sys.hp / luism@genesis.Berkeley.EDU (Luis Miguel) / 10:45 am  Apr  9, 1991 /
>In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi>, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
>|> 
>|>    Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>|>    Is it POSIX compliant?
>|> 
>|> Yes, yes.  Sure.
>|> 
>Baloney!!!. I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES NOT support long filenames
>(A pain when untarring things with long filenames. In more than one
>occasion the clipping of the name meant that some files were written
>on top of others).
>
>
>-- 
>Luis Miguel. Computer Science Division, UC Berkeley.
>arpanet: luis@postgres.Berkeley.EDU         
>uucp: {ihnp4,decvax}!ucbvax!postgres!luis                    
>at&t: (415) 642-8234
>----------

	Er, incorrect.

	HP-UX 7.0 (and of course later) does indeed support long filenames. 
	Check the man pages for "fs(4)", "mkfs(1M)", "newfs(1M)" and 
	"convertfs(1M)".

         ___        Dave Jobusch
        /  /        HP Fort Collins, CO
HEWLETT/hp/PACKARD  OSSD/UDL Kernel Project
      /__/          dlj@hpfcls.hp.com

hooft@prl.philips.nl (Peter van Hooft) (04/10/91)

In <41652@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> luism@genesis.Berkeley.EDU (Luis Miguel) writes:

>In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi>, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
>|> 
>|>    Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>|>    Is it POSIX compliant?
>|> 
>|> Yes, yes.  Sure.
>|> 
>Baloney!!!. I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES NOT support long filenames

man 1m convertfs


Peter van Hooft    Philips Research Labs, Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Email: hooft@prl.philips.nl SERI: HOOFT:NLWAYA01 Voice: +31 40744327 
X400:  /PN=PJG.VanHooft/O=research/PRMD=philips400/ADMD=400net/C=nl/

rodean@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Bruce Rodean) (04/10/91)

In article <41652@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> luism@genesis.Berkeley.EDU (Luis Miguel) writes:
>In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi>, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
>|> 
>|>    Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>|>    Is it POSIX compliant?
>|> 
>|> Yes, yes.  Sure.
>|> 
>Baloney!!!. I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES NOT support long filenames
>(A pain when untarring things with long filenames. In more than one
>occasion the clipping of the name meant that some files were written
>on top of others).

Long file names have been supported on the Series 300 since the 6.2
release which was delivered in mid-1988.

Bruce Rodean
rodean@hpfclg.fc.hp.com
Not an official statement of Hewlett-Packard Co.  Opinions expressed are
solely mine.

hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu (Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy)) (04/11/91)

||>In general, how easy is it to port free software to HPUX?  Most
||things
||>seem to port to SunOS with little effort.  To what extent is this
||true
||>of HPUX?
||
||If they don't have BSD dependencies, they port fine.  That is my gut
||impression.

In fact -- without too much computing experience -- I have managed to
compile most PD stuff (with the obvious changes: #include string.h ->
#include strings.h and similar annoying trivialities; last example
string.h does not define _index0).  
As soon as enough Cobras populate academic departments and
Sun adopts SysV people will stop writing completely 
Heliocentric software and stop discriminating against minorities.

Many thoughtful people do: often make HPUX or make SysV will do the
job.

Greetings,
Hardy 
			  -------****-------
Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy);  Department of Physics, University of California
Irvine CA 92717; (714) 856 5543; hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu or MMAYER@UCI.BITNET

kriso@lombard.dartmouth.edu (Kris Olander) (04/11/91)

Excerpts Re: Switching from Sun to H.. Tor Lillqvist@tik.vtt.fi (3856)

	...
	...  
	It's interesting to note that Andrew, however, seems to be 
	easier to compile and
	run on HP-UX (on the Series 300, alas) than on SunOS.
	--
	Tor Lillqvist,
	working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland



Yeah, but what about a working Typescript program.  I'm still waiting
for patchlevel 10 so that our hp9000 340s will be able to handle job
control, etc., etc...  And it would be nice if Console could intercept
/dev/console so that I don't get garbage printed out on my X root window.

It may compile easier, but the important question is... does it run?


-- 
Kris Olander
--------------kris.olander@dartmouth.edu----------------

milburn@me10.lbl.gov (John Milburn) (04/11/91)

kriso@lombard.dartmouth.edu (Kris Olander) writes:


>Yeah, but what about a working Typescript program.  I'm still waiting
>for patchlevel 10 so that our hp9000 340s will be able to handle job
>control, etc., etc...  And it would be nice if Console could intercept
>/dev/console so that I don't get garbage printed out on my X root window.

I don't know what Typescript is, but as for console output, the HP
X server enables capture of console output. Be sure xterm is suid root,
and invoked with the -C option. Works fine for me.

>It may compile easier, but the important question is... does it run?

I've found very little useful PD stuff which does not run properly,
with a minimum of futzing.

-jem
--
John Milburn             milburn@me10.lbl.gov     (415) 486-6969
        "X windows.  It could be worse, but it'll take time."
						- from a SIGGRAPH flyer

jrc@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Jim Conrad) (04/11/91)

Hmm.  I worked on HP's LAN Manager/X product.  Support for HP-UX Ver 7's
long file names was one of the really nasty problems we addressed.  They
are there, but no one forces you to use them.

JimC

decot@hpisod2.cup.hp.com (Dave Decot) (04/11/91)

Here are answers to some of the questions.  I don't know reliable answers
for the others.  However, see the disclaimer at the bottom.

> Does HPUX include DWB?

No, but Documenter's Work Bench for HP-UX can be obtained from companies
such as ELAN.  Note, however that nroff, eqn, and tbl are all provided in
stock HP-UX.

> Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?

Yes, since HP-UX Releases 6.5 [s300] and 2.0 [s800], respectively.

> Is it POSIX compliant?

Yes.  HP-UX has been compliant with POSIX.1 and the XPG3 Base branding
criteria since Release 7.0.

> Does uucp work reliably at 19200 bps? Is it a solid version of uucp?

It is HoneyDanBer UUCP, if that means anything to you.

> Does HPUX provide lpr or does it only provide lp?

There is no command called "lpr", but HP's lp also provides most of the
other services associated with lpr, including remote spooling and
cancellation.

> Somebody said that OSF/1 was going to be available by the end of this
> year.  Does this mean that a production version suitable for end users
> will be available by then?  Does this mean HP will be shipping OSF/1
> as their standard OS by then?  Will OSF/1 run HPUX binaries?

Nobody in HP can comment on future products.

> Is BSD 4.4 likely to be available?  If so, will the machine dependent
> parts be freely redistributable?  If not, does HP document their
> hardware enough that it would be possible for somebody to port it?

Someone (the University of Utah, I think) has ported BSD 4.3 for HP
hardware, so it should be possible.  I don't know its distribution
status, and obviously can't guarantee anything about future BSD releases.

> How good (fast, robust) is HP's implementation of X?  Does it include
> all of X11R4?  Is it reasonably close to X11R4?  Does the MIT X11R4
> distribution build on a 9000/730?  Is the R5 distribution likely to?
> Do HP document their graphics hardware enough to port a window system?

Standard benchmarks of "good", "fast", and "robust" have not been
developed, to my knowledge.  It's certainly seems to be very fast on
the Series 700.  I think the answer is yes to all the rest of these.

> How does HP's 19'' monitor compare to the Trinitron that Sun ships?
> How about the keyboard and mouse?  How noisy/hot would a system with
> two internal 400Mb disks be?  Would it be reasonably pleasant in an
> office environment?  Does it connect directly to thinwire ethernet? Is
> HP hardware generally reliable?

HP's monitors are all manufactured by Sony, I believe.  Reducing environmental
noise and dissipated heat are important design objectives for all HP
equipment, but since I run diskless on my desk I can't provide first-hand
knowledge of this particular set-up.  In general, HP hardware is the
most reliable available from any major vendor.

> How reliable is the standard C compiler?  Are the higher optimization
> levels sufficiently reliable to be usable?

Reliability is relative and somewhat subjective, but I haven't had any
problems with either the Classic or ANSI C compilers or their shared
optimizer in the recent releases.

> In general, how easy is it to port free software to HPUX?  Most things
> seem to port to SunOS with little effort.  To what extent is this true
> of HPUX?

It depends on the general portability of the particular free software,
obviously.  I'm sure that free software has been written that only runs
on PC-DOS.  However, most Un*x-oriented things I've pulled off the net
port easily on HP-UX.

***********************************************************************
DISCLAIMER: All of the information above is provided for informative
purposes only, as my own opinion, and may be false.  I am not authorized
by HP to make binding statements.  An HP sales representative will
be able to give you such answers.
***********************************************************************

Dave Decot

ian@rathe.cs.umn.edu (Ian Hogg) (04/11/91)

In article <JJC.91Apr8133840@jclark.UUCP> jjc@jclark.UUCP (James Clark) writes:
>
>If I get some replies, I'll summarize to this group, since I suspect
>there are other who have similar concerns to me.  If you reply but
>don't want your remarks to appear in the summary, or want to remain
>anonymous, please say so and I'll be glad to comply.  I've got a lot
>of questions, but I would like to hear from you even if you want to
>answer only one of them.
>
>
>My main concern is about HPUX.  My second-hand impression of it is
>that it's based on some old version of System V, and that it's a bit
>old-fashioned and non-standard, and generally not quite as good as
>SunOS.  Is this a fair assessment?

  I find HP-UX to quite solid and has most of the features I'd like except
  for mmap & threads.  These are in OSF/1.

>
>Does HPUX include DWB?
>

  Yes but it doesn't have troff.  I've used xroff from Image Network and 
  several people in the newgroup recommend eroff from Elan.

>Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>Is it POSIX compliant?
>
  Yes on all counts.  (I'm not 100% sure on job control but I think I've
  diddled with it in ksh.

>With the 2-user version of HPUX, does a uucp login count as a user?
>Does a rlogin count as a user?
>
   I've had some problems with this in the past.  I recommend that you
   log in to your system via VUE or xdm.  If you use VUE HP has a patch
   for login so that VUE doesn't suck up both users.  All logins via
   the network count as one user.  So if you log in via VUE and severl 
   other people are rlogin'ed or telnet'ed in you will only count as
   one user.  This leaves one login available for uucp.

>Does uucp work reliably at 19200 bps? Is it a solid version of uucp?
>

  I ran UUCP at 19200 off a MUX card.  Some people have pointed out
  the limitations of the built in serial card.

>Does HPUX provide lpr or does it only provide lp?  Does it support
>PostScript printers?
>

  Lp but it does support Berkely remote spooling.  I had to roll my own
  stuff to spool to a postscript printer.  If you still have a Sun laying
  around, attach your Postscript printer to it.


>Somebody said that OSF/1 was going to be available by the end of this
>year.  Does this mean that a production version suitable for end users
>will be available by then?  Does this mean HP will be shipping OSF/1
>as their standard OS by then?  Will OSF/1 run HPUX binaries?
>
   I'll let someone from HP handle this one.

>Is BSD 4.4 likely to be available?  If so, will the machine dependent
>parts be freely redistributable?  If not, does HP document their
>hardware enough that it would be possible for somebody to port it?
>

  I think you can buy BSD from Mt. Xinu.

>How good (fast, robust) is HP's implementation of X?  Does it include
>all of X11R4?  Is it reasonably close to X11R4?  Does the MIT X11R4
>distribution build on a 9000/730?  Is the R5 distribution likely to?
>Do HP document their graphics hardware enough to port a window system?
>

  HP's X is fasr and robust.  Do not use the X server off the MIT tape.  It
  is significantly slower.  Optimized servers have been place on some HP machine
  somewhere.  I don't know exactly what server you'll get with your system.

  I was running HP's server (R3 based but has R4 extensions like SHAPE) with
  the MIT R4 Xlib, Xt, Xaw, and Motif 1.1 (we licensed it from OSF).  I don't
  know when HP will ship R4 libs and Motif 1.1.

>How good is HP hardware and software support?  Is it reasonably
>priced?  Can one access support by email?
>
>How does HP's 19'' monitor compare to the Trinitron that Sun ships?
>How about the keyboard and mouse?  How noisy/hot would a system with
>two internal 400Mb disks be?  Would it be reasonably pleasant in an
>office environment?  Does it connect directly to thinwire ethernet? Is
>HP hardware generally reliable?
>

  We've had very good experiences with HP.  Connects to either thin or
  thick ethernet (at least 375 and 400's do).

>I'm concerned about exchanging data with people who don't have HPs.
>Can I get a third party SCSI tape that handles Sun-compatible QIC-24
>or QIC-150 tapes?

  I don't know, I always read/wrot QIC tapes via rsh and a SUN.  I have
  used Exabyte's to transfer data.

>
>My salesman said that 400Mb was the biggest external disk that HP
>offered on the 730.  This seems a bit on the small side.  Is HP likely
>to offer bigger disks, or does it want me to buy a 750 if I need lots
>of disk space?  Can I use third-party SCSI disks?
>

  We don't buy any disks from HP.  We buy our own usually Imprimis Sabres,
  Wrens, but haven't tried Elites.  I posted a program to this newsgroup
  that generates "/etc/disktab" entries for Imprimis disk drives (haven't
  triesd it with other drives)

>In addition to DAT, I was told there was a writable CD-ROM available
>(C1701A or something like that).  Is this intended as an alternative
>to DAT as a mass-backup device?  I suspect not, since it seems to be
>slower, have lower capacity, and be more expensive than DAT.  Can it
>mounted like a normal disk, or does one treat it like a tape?  Would
>CD-ROMs written with this drive be readable with Sun's CD-ROM drive?
>

  I used Exabytes for backup.  You can either buy as an OEM from Exabyte 
  (I think we payed about $2500) or buy from various suppliers.  I am
  quite happy with Perfect Byte because they provide a device driver
  and monitor program.

>Are gcc and g++ available?  If not, do HP provide enough information
>about their architecture that somebody could port them?  If so, is the
>code quality competitive with HP?  How about gdb?  What debugging
>format does HP use?  Is it COFF, stabs, or something peculiar to HP?
>If the last, is it documented?  Does HP offer dbx?
>

  The 900/8xx versions of these should work.

>How reliable is the standard C compiler?  Are the higher optimization
>levels sufficiently reliable to be usable?  Is ANSI C included with
>HPUX or available separately?
>

   At last check it was available separately.

>How good is HP's C++ (Softbench) offering?  Is it based on cfront 2.0
>or 2.1?  How good is the debugger?  Is it as good as Saber C++?  Is
>Saber C++ likely to become available?
>

  I was very happy using C++ (Softbench).  I was a beta site last fall for
C++ Softbench.  The beta software was based on 2.1 (I think).  HP and Saber 
have announced Saber C++ for Softbench.  Last summer I had to develop a
demo to be presented at the IEEE Power Society Summer Meeting.  I had 1 month
to do it in and it was based on HP OpenView.  I was the first person to
actually use OpenView.  So, in one month I learned Softbench, OpenView and
developed the demo.  I doubt I could have done it in two months without
Softbench.

>In general, how easy is it to port free software to HPUX?  Most things
>seem to port to SunOS with little effort.  To what extent is this true
>of HPUX?
>

  I've ported quite a few things and the degree of difficulty is varying.  I've
  built up a library of BSD routines for HP-UX.  I don't think porting is
  all that difficult.

>I would also be interested in any other random comments that you might
>have about the relative merits of Sun and HP workstations.
>

  I would rather have a 9000/375 than the SparcStation I  I have know.  The
  new 700's are the obvious choice.

>James Clark
>jjc@jclark.uucp
>jjc%jclark@mcsun.eu.net
>jjc@ai.mit.edu


-- 
Ian Hogg                        email:  ian@rathe.cs.umn.edu
                                        ...!umn-cs!rathe!ian
Rathe, Inc                              ianhogg@cs.umn.edu
366 Jackson Street              phone:  (612) 225-1401

fkittred@bbn.com (Fletcher Kittredge) (04/12/91)

In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi> tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
>In article <JJC.91Apr8133840@jclark.UUCP> jjc@jclark.UUCP (James Clark) writes:
>
>But you are right that SunOS does have some nice features that HP-UX hasn't
>got (yet).  Like dynamic linking, enhanced ptrace(2), interesting new
>filesystem types, automounter...  It's not fair to call these featrures
>"standards," though.  On the other hand, the HP-UX approach to diskless
>workstations might be better than SunOS's.

This is out of date.  HP-UX 8.0.1 does include dynamic linking.  However,
automounter not being there is a major drawback, though you can use AMD.

Fletcher Kittredge
Platforms and Tools Group, BBN Software Products
10 Fawcett Street,  Cambridge, MA. 02138
617-873-3465  /  fkittred@bbn.com  /  fkittred@das.harvard.edu

gates@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Bill Gates) (04/12/91)

>>Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>>Is it POSIX compliant?
>
>Yes on all counts, depending on how you define "POSIX compliant" - there are
>many POSIX specs, and various different suites to measure compliance.  I
>don't know our full story, but I know that 8.0 contains a lot of code in the
>commands, libraries, and kernel for drafts 1 and 2.

HP-UX 8.0 will be base compliant with XPG3, POSIX 1003.1, FIPS 151-1, and
SVID Issue 2, volumes 1, 2, and 3.  Additional work has been done towards
conformance with POSIX 1003.2 (actually targeted at conformance with a
Federal FIPS published in the Federal Register which never actually was
adopted).  XPG4 conformance work has also been done in 8.0, but only in those
areas which agree with 1003.2.  8.0 won't be fully compliant with 1003.2 or
XPG4 due to the lack of final standards.

Bill

fkittred@bbn.com (Fletcher Kittredge) (04/12/91)

In article <41652@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> luis@postgres.berkeley.edu writes:
>In article <TML.91Apr9103738@nyyti.tik.vtt.fi>, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) writes:
>|> 
>|>    Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>|>    Is it POSIX compliant?
>|> 
>|> Yes, yes.  Sure.
>|> 
>Baloney!!!. I run HPUX 7.0, and it DOES NOT support long filenames
>(A pain when untarring things with long filenames. In more than one
>occasion the clipping of the name meant that some files were written
>on top of others).

No, you are wrong.  HP-UX has supported long file names since version
2.0.  You don't have your system configured properly.  Check the
man page for SAM and try to be less vehement in your erroneous assertions.


Fletcher Kittredge
Platforms and Tools Group, BBN Software Products
10 Fawcett Street,  Cambridge, MA. 02138
617-873-3465  /  fkittred@bbn.com  /  fkittred@das.harvard.edu

ian@rathe.cs.umn.edu (Ian Hogg) (04/12/91)

In article <1991Apr10.180712.7815@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> kriso@lombard.dartmouth.edu (Kris Olander) writes:
>Excerpts Re: Switching from Sun to H.. Tor Lillqvist@tik.vtt.fi (3856)
>
>	...
>	...  
>	It's interesting to note that Andrew, however, seems to be 
>	easier to compile and
>	run on HP-UX (on the Series 300, alas) than on SunOS.
>	--
>	Tor Lillqvist,
>	working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland
>
>
>
>Yeah, but what about a working Typescript program.  I'm still waiting
>for patchlevel 10 so that our hp9000 340s will be able to handle job
>control, etc., etc...  And it would be nice if Console could intercept
>/dev/console so that I don't get garbage printed out on my X root window.
>

  I don't know what the problem with Console is, but I ported xconsole to HP-UX
  and have an X window intercept /dev/console.  You can also do this with
  an hpterm.

>It may compile easier, but the important question is... does it run?
>
>
>-- 
>Kris Olander
>--------------kris.olander@dartmouth.edu----------------


-- 
Ian Hogg                        email:  ian@rathe.cs.umn.edu
                                        ...!umn-cs!rathe!ian
Rathe, Inc                              ianhogg@cs.umn.edu
366 Jackson Street              phone:  (612) 225-1401

hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu (Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy)) (04/13/91)

Aas an addendum to Ian's remark about disks:
I have had no problem adding a Maxtor 8730-S 650 MB (that'ts what I
ultimately got out of it) drive; I hav used Ian's disktab-generating
program as a first approximation, then fine-tuned news by hand.
Much faster and much quieter than the original HP 7939S which cost
more 2.5 times more! 
Take note HP-pricemakers!

Greetings,
Hardy 
			  -------****-------
Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy);  Department of Physics, University of California
Irvine CA 92717; (714) 856 5543; hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu or MMAYER@UCI.BITNET

campbelr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com (Bob Campbell) (04/13/91)

>>   How does HP's 19'' monitor compare to the Trinitron that Sun ships?

> HP ships Trinitron monitors, too.

The 700 series uses monitors that run at 72Hz, the old Trinitrons
will not work on the new workstations and I do not think Trinitrons
are currently made to run at 72Hz.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Campbell                Some times I wish that I could stop you from
campbelr@hpda.cup.hp.com    talking, when I hear the silly things you say.
Hewlett Packard                                    - Elvis Costello

lang@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John J. Lang) (04/13/91)

/ hpfcso:comp.sys.hp / jjc@jclark.UUCP (James Clark) /  6:38 am  Apr  8, 1991 /
> With the 2-user version of HPUX, does a uucp login count as a user?
> Does a rlogin count as a user?

I don't know about uucp logins.  I don't think rlogin's count.

> Does HPUX provide lpr or does it only provide lp?  Does it support
> PostScript printers?

Some people have said no, but there is a /usr/bin/lpr file on the
S700 I have access to.  It does support PostScript Printers.

> How does HP's 19'' monitor compare to the Trinitron that Sun ships?

HP does have Sony Monitors, but they are not used by the low end
Graphics devices supported by the S700 (CRX and GRX).  These use
a 72 Hz Hitachi monitor, which is not as good as the 60Hz Sony on
my s400.   There is a 72 Hz Sony, but I have not information on how
compatible or expensive it is.  As far as I know it is not being
offered as an option by HP.

> How about the keyboard and mouse?  How noisy/hot would a system with
> two internal 400Mb disks be?  Would it be reasonably pleasant in an
> office environment?

I have had both sitting on/under my desk, and have not noticed a problem.
I find the keyboard and mouse to be fine.

> Does it connect directly to thinwire ethernet?

Yes.

> How reliable is the standard C compiler?  Are the higher optimization
> levels sufficiently reliable to be usable?  Is ANSI C included with
> HPUX or available separately?

We compile about a 'billion' lines of graphics code with the standard C
compiler, using full optimization.  There have been problems in the
past, most have been fixed, a few have been worked around.

I think ANSI C is included, and uses the same optimizer.

bdsz@cbnewsl.att.com (bruce.d.szablak) (04/13/91)

I understand that HP-UX runs NFS 3.2 instead of NFS 4.0. Now, can anyone
tell me what difference does that make?

anthony@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Lawrence Anthony) (04/13/91)

In article <7370361@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> lang@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John J. Lang) writes:
>/ hpfcso:comp.sys.hp / jjc@jclark.UUCP (James Clark) /  6:38 am  Apr  8, 1991 /
>> How reliable is the standard C compiler?  Are the higher optimization
>> levels sufficiently reliable to be usable?  Is ANSI C included with
>> HPUX or available separately?
>
>I think ANSI C is included, and uses the same optimizer.

my local hp sales rep tells me that C/ANSI C is NOT bundled with the base
HPUX operating system.  he claims that HPUX includes a stripped-down version
of the C compiler that contains neither a debugger nor an optimizer.  (pretty
slimy, if you ask me.)  any hp folk care to confirm or refute this claim?

tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) (04/13/91)

In article <1991Apr11.141050.5207@rathe.cs.umn.edu> ian@rathe.cs.umn.edu (Ian Hogg) writes:

   >Does HPUX include DWB?

     Yes but it doesn't have troff.  I've used xroff from Image Network and 
     several people in the newgroup recommend eroff from Elan.

Uh, doesn't DWB, besides n/troff, eql, tbl, also contain programs like
pic and those writing style checkers whose names I can't remember?
Anyway, none of this is in HP-UX either.  Just neqn, tbl and nroff.

I recommend GNU roff, which has eqn, tbl, pic and ditroff equivalents.
(Wasn't it the GNU roff author who posted the original article...)

BTW, for those who haven't got C++, I guess I could put up
pre-compiled HP-UX (s300 & s800) binaries of the GNU roff programs for
ftp.  Anyone interested?
--
Tor Lillqvist,
working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland

smith@wallaby.mrc.uidaho.edu (04/13/91)

In article <1991Apr13.005946.9689@nntp-server.caltech.edu> anthony@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Lawrence Anthony) writes:
>In article <7370361@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> lang@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John J. Lang) writes:
>>/ hpfcso:comp.sys.hp / jjc@jclark.UUCP (James Clark) /  6:38 am  Apr  8, 1991 /
>>> How reliable is the standard C compiler?  Are the higher optimization
>>> levels sufficiently reliable to be usable?  Is ANSI C included with
>>> HPUX or available separately?
>>
>>I think ANSI C is included, and uses the same optimizer.
>
>my local hp sales rep tells me that C/ANSI C is NOT bundled with the base
>HPUX operating system.  he claims that HPUX includes a stripped-down version
>of the C compiler that contains neither a debugger nor an optimizer.  (pretty
>slimy, if you ask me.)  any hp folk care to confirm or refute this claim?

   This is wrong.  First of all, C for the 800/700 series is ANSI complient.
The C for the 300/400 series is not ANSI, is a very nice full featured C 
with many ANSI extensions. On the 300/400 version of HPUX 7.0 there is a 
ANSI C preprocessor (/lib/cpp.ansi).  This leads me to believe the rumer that
I have heard that HPUX 8.0 will have ANSI C for all hardware platforms.

  The compiler seems to be mostly bug free.  We have compiled tens of 
thousands of lines of code and have had no noticable problems.  The compiler
does have an optimizer.  Its good, but doesn't seem to be quite as good as
gcc.

   HPUX also contains cdb as a standared debugger.  This works in split 
screen mode and works fairly well.

William Smith                     
Microelectronics Research Center   
University of Idaho, Moscow, ID  83843                    
(208)885-6500
E-mail:   wsmith@groucho.mrc.uidaho.edu 
                                    
                                    
                                    

garvey@johnny5.uucp (Joe Garvey) (04/14/91)

In article <16710082@hpisod2.cup.hp.com>, decot@hpisod2.cup.hp.com (Dave Decot) writes:
> > Does HPUX include DWB?
> 
> No, but Documenter's Work Bench for HP-UX can be obtained from companies
> such as ELAN.  Note, however that nroff, eqn, and tbl are all provided in
> stock HP-UX.

But, HP actively discourages use of these tools by suspending internal support
and upgrades for them years ago. Bugs go unfixed, and not everything you'd
expect is there. I know, I bitched about it... and got the above answer. It is
marginally useful... portable is another thing.
 
> > Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
> 
> Yes, since HP-UX Releases 6.5 [s300] and 2.0 [s800], respectively.

Long file name support is there only if you've converted your file systems.
If you're writing commercial software you'll have to work with the 14 character
limit. Not all third parties have adapted to the 6.0 changes much less 6.5
and 7.0. There are issues regarding building your own libraries too. The 14
character limit crops up again.

> > Does uucp work reliably at 19200 bps? Is it a solid version of uucp?
> 
> It is HoneyDanBer UUCP, if that means anything to you.
 
Yes, HP runs HDB, and is solid an 19200. If you're using a series 300 machine
the internal port is a no-no (it is serviced by main CPU... and thus slows
things down). You'll want a 4 port mux... of which only one port can be
used with a modem. Argh.

> > Does HPUX provide lpr or does it only provide lp?
> 
> There is no command called "lpr", but HP's lp also provides most of the
> other services associated with lpr, including remote spooling and
> cancellation.

The printing subsystem is based on SysV. It uses a printer script and there
is no printcap (ala BSD printer subsystem). Having used both I prefer the
System V... I found it easier to bend to my will.

> > Somebody said that OSF/1 was going to be available by the end of this
> > year.  Does this mean that a production version suitable for end users
> > will be available by then?  Does this mean HP will be shipping OSF/1
> > as their standard OS by then?  Will OSF/1 run HPUX binaries?
> 
> Nobody in HP can comment on future products.

BS. Some do, and marketing/sales advertises. HP has a clear path mapped to
OSF/1. You'll see pieces of it as time goes on. I beleive last I heard
(probably out of date) that 8.0 was to be OSF/1. HP is *very* good
about compatiblity issues. But this is the realease where the rubber
meets the road. All of Apollo gets folded in. I'd expect this to be difficult
to do. Count on HP to do its best (better than you'll ever see from Sun).
As with such an extrodinary effort expect delays and a significant number
of small problems. HP's OS QA is very good. It'll be their applications
that really hickup ME10, database, etc.

> > Is BSD 4.4 likely to be available?  If so, will the machine dependent
> > parts be freely redistributable?  If not, does HP document their
> > hardware enough that it would be possible for somebody to port it?
> 
> Someone (the University of Utah, I think) has ported BSD 4.3 for HP
> hardware, so it should be possible.  I don't know its distribution
> status, and obviously can't guarantee anything about future BSD releases.

HP has pretty good BSD compatibility. To do this they have a special BSD
library that you link in. I expect HP will keep it reasonably up to date.

> > How good (fast, robust) is HP's implementation of X?  Does it include
> > all of X11R4?  Is it reasonably close to X11R4?  Does the MIT X11R4
> > distribution build on a 9000/730?  Is the R5 distribution likely to?
> > Do HP document their graphics hardware enough to port a window system?
 
> Standard benchmarks of "good", "fast", and "robust" have not been
> developed, to my knowledge.  It's certainly seems to be very fast on
> the Series 700.  I think the answer is yes to all the rest of these.

I agree. HP does a solid job here. X is really to be considered part of
the OS groups responsiblity. It'll be clean (er than Sun's for sure).
Note: HP does add a few of their own eccentricites (compressed fonts for
example). This makes X-terminals barf... just uncompress them and put them
in their own directory.
 
> > How does HP's 19'' monitor compare to the Trinitron that Sun ships?
> > How about the keyboard and mouse?  How noisy/hot would a system with
> > two internal 400Mb disks be?  Would it be reasonably pleasant in an
> > office environment?  Does it connect directly to thinwire ethernet? Is
> > HP hardware generally reliable?
> 
> HP's monitors are all manufactured by Sony, I believe.  Reducing environmental
> noise and dissipated heat are important design objectives for all HP
> equipment, but since I run diskless on my desk I can't provide first-hand
> knowledge of this particular set-up.  In general, HP hardware is the
> most reliable available from any major vendor.

HP's monitors are superior in resolution and clarity to what Sun ships. I
consider Sun's monitors to be PC class in resolution, clarity, and quality.
HP's monitors are professional. Higher resolution (if you opt for it), always
clearer, and very reliable (come on now, we're talking HP here, hardware
quality is a specailty of this company).
 
> > How reliable is the standard C compiler?  Are the higher optimization
> > levels sufficiently reliable to be usable?
> 
> Reliability is relative and somewhat subjective, but I haven't had any
> problems with either the Classic or ANSI C compilers or their shared
> optimizer in the recent releases.

I believe ANSI C is avaliable. No, the conventional wisdom (last I heard,
though there haven't been enough releases to convince me this has changed)
is to avoid the higher optimizations.

> > In general, how easy is it to port free software to HPUX?  Most things
> > seem to port to SunOS with little effort.  To what extent is this true
> > of HPUX?

HPUX is an excellent integration of BSD/SYSV. You should have very little
effort porting (esp if you designed your software to do so). I've ported
quite a few of my non-portably-written applications with little to no
trouble. If a problem occurred is was almost always my fault (for doing
something sloppy). You should expect few problems here. Like I said
before, expect some of the libraries to change (headers too, probably).
 
> It depends on the general portability of the particular free software,
> obviously.  I'm sure that free software has been written that only runs
> on PC-DOS.  However, most Un*x-oriented things I've pulled off the net
> port easily on HP-UX.

Almost all free software (and I've compiled a lot on HP) compiles without
problems. GNU stuff has been tough in the past... but is reportedly getting
quite a bit easier. Enough that you shouldn't worry about this.

> ***********************************************************************
> DISCLAIMER: All of the information above is provided for informative
> purposes only, as my own opinion, and may be false.  I am not authorized
> by HP to make binding statements.  An HP sales representative will
> be able to give you such answers.

In general no, an HP sales rep can't (I SAID IN GENERAL, REREAD THE BEGINNING
OF THE LINE). My experience says you'll have to weasel past the sales rep
to the SE. The SE should know, or point you to someone who knows (SE's
specailize, so if you change the subject area, you may well need to talk
to another SE).
> ***********************************************************************
> 
> Dave Decot

Who'm I? A HP system admin/programmer in the HP environment for 4+ years.
I really dug in the HP stuff. The comments above are based on my experinces.

I'm also a Sun admin/programmer for 1yr-.

Other things you should know. HP wrote their own networking years ago. It's
a little wierd. They're fixing it. 8.0 is the magic release again. They may
not actually be planing to call it 8.0... but it should give you the right
idea.

HP support is quite a bit better that Sun support. In general they are better
trained, and more able to solve problems. I suspect this derives from
organizational differences more than anything. You also get pretty good
help from the open net from HP (better than what I've experienced from Sun).
On the other hand, everyone in Sun uses e-mail... that makes things easier
to do... like report bugs. HP's learning, but it takes time to accelerate
such a large mass. Then again HP doesn't have everyone and their brother
calling... making the customer base HP has to work with better... maybe
the "snakes" will change that :-).

You can also plan on a little annoyance adjusting to a different set of
manuals...  no better... no worse, just different.

HP's ability to support diskless/dataless nodes is vastly superior to Sun's.
This is quite a (un)pleasant surprise. Depending on the direction you're
migrating.


Hope that helps.

-- 

Joe Garvey                       uucp: sumax!quick!johnny5!garvey
J5 Research                      map entries are wrong for johnny5. They're
Bothell, Wa.                     being fixed. Please use address above.

steve-t@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Steve Taylor) (04/15/91)

In /comp.sys.hp/ smith@wallaby.mrc.uidaho.edu / quotes & writes:
| anthony@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Lawrence Anthony) writes:
| > my local hp sales rep tells me that C/ANSI C is NOT bundled with the base
| > HPUX operating system. he claims that HPUX includes a stripped-down version
| > of the C compiler that contains neither a debugger nor an optimizer.
|   This is wrong.  First of all, C for the 800/700 series is ANSI complient.
| The C for the 300/400 series is not ANSI, is a very nice full featured C 
| with many ANSI extensions. On the 300/400 version of HPUX 7.0 there is a 
| ANSI C preprocessor (/lib/cpp.ansi).  This leads me to believe the rumer that
| I have heard that HPUX 8.0 will have ANSI C for all hardware platforms.

Starting with 8.0, C/ANSI C on the 700/800 is unbundled.  The "RunTime" (base)
system contains a C compiler which is not ANSI, does not generate debug info,
(I'm not sure about no optimization ...) which is used to rebuild kernels,
handle shar files, and such things.  If you're buying a bundle greater than
the "RunTime" system, it may include the full compiler (some do).

C/ANSI C for the 300/400 became available post 7.0 release.  The current
version of the 300/400 compilers (C, Fortran, Pascal) is 7.40.  These are
separate products also, not bundled with 7.0x HP-UX.

|   HPUX also contains cdb as a standard debugger.  This works in split 
| screen mode and works fairly well.

Thanks.  Note that we tend to think of xdb as the standard debugger, since
it appears on series 300/400, series 700, series 600/800, and series 900 (MPE).
cdb is the same debugger with a different command syntax which only appears
on the series 300/400.
						Regards, Steve taylor

NOT A STATEMENT, OFFICIAL OR OTHERWISE, OF THE HEWLETT-PACKARD COMPANY.

nenaas@ulrik.uio.no (Nils-Eivind Naas) (04/15/91)

In article <HARDY.91Apr12105934@golem.ps.uci.edu> hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu (Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy)) writes:

   Aas an addendum to Ian's remark about disks:

   I have had no problem adding a Maxtor 8730-S 650 MB (that'ts what I
   ultimately got out of it) drive; I hav used Ian's disktab-generating
   program as a first approximation, then fine-tuned news by hand.
   Much faster and much quieter than the original HP 7939S which cost
   more 2.5 times more! 
   Take note HP-pricemakers!

   Greetings,
   Hardy 
			     -------****-------
   Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy);  Department of Physics, University of California
   Irvine CA 92717; (714) 856 5543; hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu or MMAYER@UCI.BITNET

Apparently things work differently in different countries; in Norway at least,
HP peripherals are also sold through distributors who charge quite low
prices. Disk prices are comparable to what is usually charged for Seagate
Imprimis disks. The only difference is that HP disks carry a 5-year guarantee!

Nils-Eivind Naas           nen@isaf.no       or
ISAF, Oslo,Norway          nenaas@ulrik.uio.no

jim@cs.strath.ac.uk (Jim Reid) (04/15/91)

In article <1991Apr14.053212.24266@johnny5.uucp> garvey@johnny5.uucp (Joe Garvey) writes:

   HPUX is an excellent integration of BSD/SYSV. You should have very little
   effort porting (esp if you designed your software to do so).

I must disagree with this. HP-UX is an awful thing to port code to.
The kernel is BSD dressed up to look like System V. [The older
releases were infuriating because the kernel contained the code for
things like long file names and reliable signals, but wouldn't let you
run it for the sake of SVID compilance!] HP has its own object file
format which makes life hard if you're writing a debugger/linker etc.
(It was really painful to get gcc up on HP boxes.)

Practically nothing can be installed without tweaking makefiles or
config files. In my experience, it has never, ever been possible to
install anything on HP-UX simply by reading in the tape and just typing
make, as can be done on other platforms like SunOS. This is because of
the schizophrenic SysV/BSD OS. If you say the OS is System V, most
software assumes you don't have sockets (you've got streams instead)
and you've got COFF format. Neither assumption is true for HP-UX. If
you say you've got BSD, the compiles fail because they see SysV
include files and #defines.

Unfortunately, not many people write code to cover the case where an
OS has BSD sockets, System V include files, a non-standard object
format, a System V C library with some BSD bits flung in (and others
in a "compatibility" library) and numerous other weirdoes.

		Jim

frank@grep.co.uk (Frank Wales) (04/15/91)

In article <1991Apr13.005946.9689@nntp-server.caltech.edu> 
 anthony@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Lawrence Anthony) writes:
>my local hp sales rep tells me that C/ANSI C is NOT bundled with the base
>HPUX operating system.  he claims that HPUX includes a stripped-down version
>of the C compiler that contains neither a debugger nor an optimizer.  (pretty
>slimy, if you ask me.)  any hp folk care to confirm or refute this claim?

Your sales rep is broken.  According to sales literature I have to hand
(plus the HP9000/345 I'm writing this on), ANSI C is a separate product on
the *300s* and is likely to stay that way -- HP-UX on these machines 
continues to ship with a pcc-derived C compiler (maybe this applies to the
400s too, I don't know).  HP-UX for PA machines (700/800) has ANSI C
bundled.  All versions of HP-UX ship with decent debuggers and fairly
reliable optimisers, although the code quality seems better on PA.
--
Frank Wales, Grep Limited,             [frank@grep.co.uk<->uunet!grep!frank]
Kirkfields Business Centre, Kirk Lane, LEEDS, UK, LS19 7LX. (+44) 532 500303

scottm@spiderman.spider.co.uk (Scott Mackie) (04/16/91)

In article <JIM.91Apr15115715@baird.cs.strath.ac.uk>, jim@cs.strath.ac.uk (Jim Reid) writes:
|> In article <1991Apr14.053212.24266@johnny5.uucp> garvey@johnny5.uucp (Joe Garvey) writes:
|> 
|>    HPUX is an excellent integration of BSD/SYSV. You should have very little
|>    effort porting (esp if you designed your software to do so).
|> 
|> I must disagree with this. HP-UX is an awful thing to port code to.

I've got to agree with this sentiment. The only code I've ever been able to port
without endless tweaks is the X11R4 libraries and clients (and that's only
because I've done it so many times for other people). 

The GNU stuff especially has been a pain (I even got assembler patches from
HP Support for Emacs 18.55) although I'm told recent releases have better
support for HPUX.

|> Unfortunately, not many people write code to cover the case where an
|> OS has BSD sockets, System V include files, a non-standard object
|> format, a System V C library with some BSD bits flung in (and others
|> in a "compatibility" library) and numerous other weirdoes.
|> 
|> 		Jim

Unless you're working on a MIPS box!! ;-)


Scott.........

-- 
Spider Systems Limited				Net:	scottm@spider.co.uk
Spider Park, Stanwell Street, Edinburgh		YellNet: +44 31 554 9424

#include <disclaimer.h>				"Rockin' Good, Peanut!"

tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) (04/16/91)

In article <JIM.91Apr15115715@baird.cs.strath.ac.uk> jim@cs.strath.ac.uk (Jim Reid) writes:

   non-standard object format,

I didn't know there was a standard for object formats...  unless you
define standard as "Version 7 + various hacks" or "SunOS"?

HP-UX is hardly any worse than other System V / BSD hybrids.  Remember
that all the world is not a VAX, nor a Sun3.
--
Tor Lillqvist,
working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland

hwt@bwdlh490.BNR.CA (Henry Troup) (04/17/91)

In article <5570604@hpfcdc.HP.COM>, rodean@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Bruce Rodean) writes:

|>Long file names have been supported on the Series 300 since the 6.2
|>release which was delivered in mid-1988.

Check out convertfs(1M).  It's a one-way conversion, and your
administrator may not have done it (or want to).
                    
Henry Troup - HWT@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions

perry@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Perry Scott) (04/18/91)

>> > Does uucp work reliably at 19200 bps? Is it a solid version of uucp?
>> 
>> It is HoneyDanBer UUCP, if that means anything to you.
> 
>Yes, HP runs HDB, and is solid an 19200. If you're using a series 300 machine
>the internal port is a no-no (it is serviced by main CPU... and thus slows
>things down).

The basenote specifically mentions the 720.  The 720 has two internal
buffered serial ports.  Between the power of the 720, and the 32(?)
byte FIFO on the chip, there shouldn't be any overruns.

>You'll want a 4 port mux... of which only one port can be
>used with a modem. Argh.

I was the midwife for the 98638A, an 8-port modem MUX for the 300/400.  It
takes up one wide (CPU-sized) slot.

Perry Scott
HP Ft Collins

garvey@johnny5.uucp (Joe Garvey) (04/18/91)

> I didn't know there was a standard for object formats...  unless you
> define standard as "Version 7 + various hacks" or "SunOS"?

Yes, there is a "standard" format. It's called COFF (Common Object File
Format). You can expect to see more of it. I know that some of HP's embedded
processor development tools use it, and my SparcStation has a man page...

    Available only on Sun 386i systems  running  a  SunOS  4.0.x
    release or earlier.  Not a SunOS 4.1 release feature.

So, it's gradually becoming *the* standard.

BTW, I even have the Nutshell handbook on it... you may want to pick up a copy
if you're interested in learning more about it.


-- 

Joe Garvey                       uucp: sumax!quick!johnny5!garvey
J5 Research                      map entries are wrong for johnny5. They're
Bothell, Wa.                     being fixed. Please use address above.

tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Mike Taylor) (04/19/91)

>Long file name support is there only if you've converted your file systems.
>If you're writing commercial software you'll have to work with the 14 character
>limit. Not all third parties have adapted to the 6.0 changes much less 6.5
>and 7.0. There are issues regarding building your own libraries too. The 14
>character limit crops up again.

It seems like it would be possible for your software to check to see if
long filenames have been enabled during installation or startup by touching
a 15+ character filename and checking the results.  Then tell the user to
convert since some people don't until they have to (I haven't heard of any
good reasons not to convert).  Also, explain the dependency in the sales 
literature's system requirements.  The makefile for your own libraries 
could have a similar check.


Peace,

Mike Taylor
Current Products Engineering & Online
Interface Technology Operation

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal!" 
                                                   - Zaphod Beeblebrox

lynch@theory.tn.cornell.edu (Tim Lynch) (04/20/91)

In article <1991Apr16.085958.17880@spider.co.uk> scottm@spider.co.uk writes:
>The GNU stuff especially has been a pain (I even got assembler patches from
>HP Support for Emacs 18.55) although I'm told recent releases have better
>support for HPUX.

I don't understand. We're running 18.55 on an 800 series machine and built
it with no problem.  No assembler patches needed.  What version of HP-UX
you referring to, Scott?

>Scott.........

>Spider Systems Limited        Net:  scottm@spider.co.uk
>Spider Park, Stanwell Street, Edinburgh    YellNet: +44 31 554 9424

Tim Lynch, Mann Library, Cornell University                    (607) 255 1381
Ithaca, New York 14853-4301                  lynch@albert.mannlib.cornell.edu

scottm@spiderman.spider.co.uk (Scott Mackie) (04/22/91)

In article <1991Apr19.200733.422@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>, lynch@theory.tn.cornell.edu (Tim Lynch) writes:
|> In article <1991Apr16.085958.17880@spider.co.uk> scottm@spider.co.uk writes:
|> >The GNU stuff especially has been a pain (I even got assembler patches from
|> >HP Support for Emacs 18.55) although I'm told recent releases have better
|> >support for HPUX.
|> 
|> I don't understand. We're running 18.55 on an 800 series machine and built
|> it with no problem.  No assembler patches needed.  What version of HP-UX
|> you referring to, Scott?
|> 

Well, a quick look at uname says 

$ uname -a
HP-UX spiderma 7.0 B 9000/375 spiderma

Not that old....

The patches that I applied were to some 68XXX assembler in the src dir... I think
it was alloca.s. Obviously that doesn't apply to the 800's....

I can dig out the notes I got from HP Support if anyone's interested...

Scott...........

-- 
Spider Systems Limited				Net:	scottm@spider.co.uk
Spider Park, Stanwell Street, Edinburgh		YellNet: +44 31 554 9424

#include <disclaimer.h>				"Rockin' Good, Peanut!"

jbb@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Jim B. Byers) (04/23/91)

>  HP's X is fasr and robust.  Do not use the X server off the MIT tape.  It
>  is significantly slower.  Optimized servers have been place on some HP
>  machine somewhere.
>  I don't know exactly what server you'll get with your system.

>  I was running HP's server (R3 based but has R4 extensions like SHAPE) with
>  the MIT R4 Xlib, Xt, Xaw, and Motif 1.1 (we licensed it from OSF).  I don't
>  know when HP will ship R4 libs and Motif 1.1.

The HP-UX server that ships with 7.03 is an R4 server.  There is a version
of this server that runs fast on the 98550 graphics card available on
hpcvaaz (15.255.72.15) in the XServers directory.  This is availabe
via anonymous ftp and is supported on all 7.x series 300 and 400s.  An 
as yet unsupported Series 800 server is available in the unsupported
directory.  Note that these servers all have been based on R4.  

NOTE: When querried they will respond that they
are vendor release 3.  This is because we started shipping X11 with 6.2
and so are on our third major release.  Only MIT is guaranteed to have a 
vendor release that is the same as the R# of the release (by definition).
Therefore the vendor release number can have no relation to the actual
MIT release it coresponds to.  Don't be confused by it.

R4 libraries compiled for 7.x are available in the MitX11R4 directory.

R4, Motif 1.1 libraries and servers are standard with HP-UX 8.0.  Also
scalable typefacces in X11 are shipped as standard in 8.0.  Motif
1.1 libraries can be purchased for 7.0 by ordering product B1177A.

Hope this helps!

Jim Byers
Interface Technology Operation
Hewlett Packard

"Have you generated 1000 lines of Motif source code with a click of
a button using HP Interface Architect today?"

mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) (04/23/91)

Re: difficulties porting Gnu Emacs

You may be referring to the patched crt0.s you need, not any patch for the
assembler per se.  See, these Gnu folks don't adhere to standards, and think
that because they wrote an assembly version of the system-dependent startup
code for BSD or whatever, that it should work on other systems?  Baloney.  You
aren't supposed to be mucking with startup code.  Same thing happened when Sun
changed their startup conventions when they to shared libraries at 4.0.

Software that was written to not depend on system dependent things like startup
code or BSD-isms that aren't part of the Unix *standards* like SVID, Posix, etc
will port with little or no difficult.

>> I didn't know there was a standard for object formats...  unless you
>> define standard as "Version 7 + various hacks" or "SunOS"?
>
>Yes, there is a "standard" format. It's called COFF (Common Object File
>Format). You can expect to see more of it. I know that some of HP's embedded
>processor development tools use it, and my SparcStation has a man page...

Oh, you mean the format that AT&T has now dumped in favor of "Elf"?  No, there
is no standard.  At best, COFF was once a "de facto" standard, there are fewer
and fewer systems that use it.

>So, it's gradually becoming *the* standard.

Quite the opposite - "Elf" may be the AT&T standard of the future.  Except that
OSF is promoting something they call "Rose", based on Mach-o...

--------------
Marc Sabatella (marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com)
Disclaimers:
	2 + 2 = 3, for suitably small values of 2
	Bill and Dave may not always agree with me

darrylo@hpnmdla.hp.com (Darryl Okahata) (04/24/91)

In comp.sys.hp, scottm@spiderman.spider.co.uk (Scott Mackie) writes:

> The GNU stuff especially has been a pain (I even got assembler patches from
> HP Support for Emacs 18.55) although I'm told recent releases have better
> support for HPUX.

     This year, people within HP contributed a number of programs to
Interex (an HP user's group), for inclusion on their contrib tape.
Among these was a copy of a version of GNU Emacs used within HP.  It's
basically vanilla GNU Emacs with a *lot* of added features; I've
included a list of features at the end of this message.

     If anyone is bringing up GNU Emacs for the first time on an HP
workstation, I recommend getting a copy of the Interex contrib tape with
this version of Emacs, as it is a complete package with full
laserjet-ready documentation.  Note, however, that this is a completely
unsupported program.

     -- Darryl Okahata
	UUCP: {hplabs!, hpcea!, hpfcla!} hpnmd!darrylo
	Internet: darrylo%hpnmd@relay.hp.com

DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not
constitute the support, opinion or policy of Hewlett-Packard or of the
little green men that have been following him all day.

===============================================================================
     Many of these features have already been made available to the
public, often by people outside HP; however, this may be the only
publicly available version where all of these features have been
combined into a single monolithic version of GNU Emacs (we imagine that
other, similar, versions are probably available, but we are not aware of
them).  Features:

1. This is a "complete" version of GNU Emacs, with extensive
   modifications, additions, and documentation.  Complete high-quality
   manuals, ready for printing on an HP Laserjet or compatible, are
   included.  Many separate, but highly useful, packages have been
   integrated into this version, which means that novice users do not
   have to ask around or hunt through the Internet to find useful
   utilities.  You no longer need access to a "GNU Emacs GURU" to have a
   powerful version of Emacs.

2. Extensive HP keyboard support, both on terminals and in X11.  If you
   want, you can use hierarchical softkey menus (they exist even if you
   run Emacs in native X11 mode).

3. A sample .emacs file is provided, with copious comments describing
   how to configure Emacs to your liking.  If an error occurs while reading
   the .emacs file, a useful error message is displayed, and not just the
   cryptic "error in init" message.

4. Enhanced X11 support:

     You can specify a class and resource name for Emacs.

     Regions being "cut" by the mouse are highlighted.

     You can programmatically read and set the name of the Emacs' icon.

     You can programmatically read and set the window name.

     You can programmatically move, resize, iconify, and uniconify the
	window.

     Emacs can be started in iconic form.

     Pop-up X Menus are enabled.

     Full interrupt (signal) driven I/O.

5. Has hooks to "ispell", the interactive spelling checker (the sources
   to this program is included, if you do not already have ispell -- see
   the file "HP-new/README.HP" for details).  You can do interactive
   spell-checking (where you are given a list of possible correct
   spellings of a word) from within Emacs.

6. Gnuserv is integrated within this version.  Gnuserv, along with the
   accompanying programs "gnuclient" and "gnudoit", is like a more
   powerful version of "emacsclient".  By running "gnuclient" on machine
   "A", you can cause a copy of emacs running on machine "B" to edit a
   file on machine "A".  You can also issue Emacs-lisp commands remotely
   (this feature is particularly useful with X11 window-manager pop-up
   menus -- you can cause Emacs to do things by selecting a
   window-manager menu pick).

7. Complete on-line documentation.  The documentation have also been
   processed into PCL files, for direct feeding to an HP-Laserjet or
   compatible to create high-quality printed manuals (this assumes that
   the laser printer has enough toner and paper to print hundreds of
   pages).

8. The following non-standard functions are available.  Note that those
   functions that start with `x-HP-' are functions that will no longer
   exist when GNU Emacs V19 is released -- they start with `x-HP-' to
   make it easier to identify functions that may have to be emulated
   when V19 appears (these functions are "stopgap" functions, functions
   whose functionality need to be in Emacs, but do not yet officially
   exist).  This is not a complete list, but it is in alphabetical
   order:

   add-load-hook
	Add a load hook for FILE which is FORM.  FORM is added to
	load-hooks after all load-hooks for FILE which are presently
	there.

   align-equals
	Make the first assignment operator on each line line up
	vertically.

   ange-crypt-mode
	Toggle ange-crypt mode.  With arg, turn ange-crypt mode on iff
	arg is positive.  In ange-crypt mode, when the buffer is
	saved, it is encrypted first, and when restored, it is
	decrypted first.

   ange-crypt-set-key
	Prompt the user for the key to encrypt/decrypt the current
	buffer.  Echos a . for each character typed.  End with <cr>,
	<lf>, or <esc>.  DEL or backspace rubs out.

   ange-find-tag
	Similar to find-tag except that the tag table associated with
	the current buffer is used. See the documentation for find-tag
	and ange-tags-alist for more details.

   ange-find-tag-other-window
	Similar to find-tag-other-window except that the tag table
	associated with the current buffer is used.

   ange-tags-loop-continue
	Similar to tags-loop-continue except that it remembers the
	name of the tag file used on the last tag operation.  See the
	documentaton for tags-loop- continue for more details.

   block-comment-edit
	Copies the comment surrounding point into a temporary buffer
	for editing in a more suitable major mode.  See the
	documentation for this function for more details.

   browse-kill-ring
	Browses the kill ring in another buffer.  Use C-y to yank most
	recent kill ring entry (number 1.) into the buffer which was
	current when browse-kill-ring was invoked.  Use a numeric
	argument (M-# C-y) to yank the corresponding entry.  If you
	move point into the browse-kill-ring buffer, the keys C-y, y,
	Y, or SPC will yank the entry on the current line into the
	previous buffer.  Note that browse-kill-ring should always be
	called before its contents is used; its buffer is not
	automatically updated when kills and yanks are done.  This is
	normally not a problem, since yanks will cause the buffer to
	be deleted automatically.

   byte-compile-file
	Compile a file of Lisp code named FILENAME into a file of byte
	code.  The output file's name is made by appending "c" to the
	end of FILENAME.

   calc
	This is Dave Gillespie's GNU Emacs Calc program, a symbolic RPN
	calculator for GNU Emacs.  It is similar to the HP-28S/HP-48SX
	calculators, and can be thought of as a "poor-man's symbolic
	mathematics program".

   c++-mode
	Major mode for editing C++ code.  Very much like editing C
	code.  Expression and list commands understand all C++
	brackets.  Turning on C++ mode calls the value of the variable
	c++-mode-hook with no args, if that value is non-nil.

   c-comment-edit
	Edit multi-line C comments.  The comment may be indented or
	flush with the left margin.  Similar to block-comment-edit.

   calendar
	Display a three-month calendar in another window.  The three
	months appear side by side, with the current month in the
	middle surrounded by the previous and next months.  The cursor
	is put on today's date.

	This function is suitable for execution in a .emacs file;
	appropriate setting of the variable
	`view-diary-entries-initially' will cause the diary entries
	for the current date to be displayed in another window.  The
	value of the variable `number- of-diary-entries' controls the
	number of days of diary entries displayed upon initial display
	of the calendar.

	An optional prefix argument ARG causes the calendar displayed
	to be ARG months in the future if ARG is positive or in the
	past if ARG is negative; in this case the cursor goes on the
	first day of the month.

	Once in the calendar window, future or past months can be
	moved into view.  Arbitrary months can be displayed, or the
	calendar can be scrolled forward or backward.

	The cursor can be moved forward or backward by one day, one
	week, one month, or one year.  All of these commands take
	prefix arguments which, when negative, cause movement in the
	opposite direction.  For convenience, the digit keys and the
	minus sign are automatically prefixes.  The window is
	replotted as necessary to display the desired date.

	Diary entries can be marked on the calendar or displayed in
	another window.

	Use M-x describe-mode for details of the key bindings in the
	calendar window.

	The Gregorian calendar is assumed.

	After preparing the calendar window initially, the hooks given
	by the variable `initial-calendar- window-hook' are run.

	The hooks given by the variable `today-visible-calendar-hook'
	are run everytime the calendar window gets shifted, if the
	current date is visible in the window.  If it is not visible,
	the hooks given by the variable
	`today-invisible-calendar-hook' are run.  Thus, for example,
	setting `today-visible-calendar-hook' to 'calendar-star-date
	will cause today's date to be replaced by asterisks to
	highlight it whenever it is in the window.

   ci-buffer
	Performs an RCS check-in of the file associated with the
	current buffer.  Pops up a buffer for creation of a log
	message then does a "ci -u file", a "ci -l file", or a "ci
	file".

   cindent
	Reformat the specified BUFFER using the Unix indent(1)
	program.  Selects the specified buffer, and saves it to disk,
	displays new version.  M-x revert-buffer and M-x undo work as
	expected.  User may opt not to save the newly indented buffer.

   co-buffer
	Performs an RCS check-out of the file associated with the
	current buffer.  If ARGS is not specified, the file is checked
	out locked.  If ARGS is a string, it is used for the switches
	to pass to ci.  Otherwise (the function was called
	interactively with a prefix argument) the switches to pass to
	ci are prompted for in the minibuffer.

   complete-or-expand-token
	Complete token before point using COMPLETION-LIST, or if
	complete expand to show generic declaration, and display
	synopsis in the echo area

   complete-token
	Complete token before point using COMPLETION-LIST.  Inserts as
	many characters as possible, and then if multiple completions,
	display them in a *Completions* buffer.

   completing-find-tag
	A "better> interface to find-tag.

   completing-find-tag-other-window
	A "better" interface to find-tag, uses other window.

   compress-mode
	Automatically uncompress a compressed file when editing it.
	Unfortunately, there is no automatic re-compression done when
	the file is saved.

   copy-line
	Duplicate the current line.  If repeat is non-nil, it
	indicates how many copys to make.

   copy-region
	Duplicate the region indicated by start and stop.  If repeat
	is non-nil, it indicates how many copys to make.  The
	duplicates are inserted after stop.

   cpp-buffer
	Run the current buffer through the C preprocessor.

   cpp-buffer-for-display
	Run the current buffer through the C preprocessor and make it
	suitable for viewing.  All occurrences of successive blank
	lines are each compressed into one blank line.

   crontab
	Function to allow the easy editing of crontab files.

   date-code
	Update datecode and filecode of the current buffer.  This
	function is usually bound to write-file-hooks.

   define-cxxr-function
	Given string XX, create standard function cXXr.

   delatex
	Remove LaTeX commands from the current buffer.

   describe-region
	Gives a message briefly describing the text at the beginning
	and end of the region.

   detex
	TeX commands from the current buffer.

   diff
	Take the diff(1) of a BUFFER and its oldest backup file.  With
	prefix arg, (or optional flag if noninteractive) does a normal
	non-context diff.

   display-file-info
	Run `ls -l <filename>' whenever a file is visited, placing the
	output in the message line.

   display-line-numbers
	Temporarily display the line numbers of lines in a buffer.

   edebug-defun
	Evaluate the defun that point is in or before, but set it up
	for edebug.  Print its name in the minibuffer.

   edit-c-prologue
	Edit the prologue for the C function enclosing or after point,
	or the file prologue if file prologue is specified.

   emerge-buffers
	Run Emerge on two buffers.

   emerge-files
	Run Emerge on two files.

   emerge-files-with-ancestor
	Run Emerge on two files, giving another file as the ancestor.

   etags2ctags-buffer
	Convert a TAGS buffer to ctags format.

   etags2ctags-file
	Convert a TAGS file to ctags format.

   execute-unix-command
	Execute a unix command, wait for it for finish, and return the
	exit status.  This function creates a process, using BUFFER
	for output, and waits for the process to exit.  The name of
	the program to run is given by PROGRAM, and any remaining
	arguments, ARGS, are passed as command line arguments to the
	program.  All arguments are strings.

	Note that there are no provisions for giving input to the
	program.  If you must give input to the program, create a file
	containing the input for the process and pass the name of this
	file to a shell script that starts up the program with
	standard input redirected to the given file.

	If BUFFER is nil, any output from the program will be throw
	away.

	If a ^G is pressed while the program is running, the program
	will be killed via a SIGINT, and this function will return
	nil.  All other keypresses will be flushed.

	Upon normal completion of the program, the numeric exit status
	of the program will be returned.  Note that this function
	returns either nil or a numeric value.

   expand-token
	Expand COMPLETION using COMPLETION-LIST to (momentarily) show
	generic declaration, and display synopsis in echo area.
	COMPLETION must be complete, and COMPLETION-LIST is a list of
	elements of the form: ("completion" . ("declaration" .
	"synopsis"))

   fast-apropos
	Show all symbols whose names contain matches for REGEXP.  If
	optional argument DO-ALL is non-nil, does more
	(time-consuming) work such as showing key bindings.  Returns
	list of symbols and documentation found.

   find-alter-file
	Like find-alternate-file, but presents current filename for
	editing.

   find-directory
	Search for DIR in the directories listed in cd-path.  If
	found, switch to a buffer in dired-mode for that directory.

   find-directory-noread
	Search for DIR in the directories listed in cd-path.  If
	found, switch to a buffer in dired-mode for that directory.
	The directory list is not read in by default; you can read it
	with the normal dired-mode commands.

   find-this-error
	Find the error that point is on and position to that skipping
	all in between.  If error is before the previous error found,
	then reparse the errors and try again.

   finger
	Show who is on the system.

   free-space-checker
	Start a background process to display "nn% free" in the mode
	line.  The string to be inserted into the mode-line is
	produced by free-space-checker-script.

   getris
	Clone of a famous Russian game program.

   gomoku
	Start a Gomoku game between you and Emacs.  If a game is in
	progress, this command allow you to resume it.  If optional
	arguments N and M are given, an N by M board is used.  You and
	Emacs play in turn by marking a free square.  You mark it with
	X and Emacs marks it with O.  The winner is the first to get
	five contiguous marks horizontally, vertically or in diagonal.
	You play by moving the cursor over the square you choose and
	hitting RET, x, ..  or whatever has been set locally.  Use C-h
	m for more info.

   grep
	Run grep, with user-specified args, and collect output in a
	buffer.  While grep runs asynchronously, you can use the C-x `
	command to find the text that grep hits refer to.

   hexl-find-file
	A major mode for editing binary files in hex dump format.

	This function automatically converts the buffer to the hexl
	format using the function `hexlify-buffer'.  Each line in the
	buffer has an `address' (in hexadecimal) representing the
	offset into the file that the characters on this line are at,
	16 characters from the file in displayed as their ascii values
	in hexadecimal grouped every 16 bits, and (the same) 16
	characters displayed as ascii characters.  If any of the
	characters (displayed as ascii characters) are unprintable
	(control or meta characters) they will be replaced as periods.

   hide-ifdef-mode
	Toggle hide-ifdef-mode.  Thus this is a minor mode, albeit a
	large one.  With arg, turn hide-ifdef-mode on iff arg is
	positive.  In hide-ifdef-mode, code within ifdefs that the C
	preprocessor would eliminate may be hidden from view.

   HP-fork-and-exit-emacs
	Fork the current emacs process and exit.  (In case you forgot
	the ampersand when starting emacs.)

   increment-number-on-line

   increment-numbers-in-column

   insert-file-name-tail
	Prompts for a file or directory name and inserts that name
	after point.  Does not include unnecessary directory path
	prefixes.  The name may be non- existent.  Useful in Shell
	mode.

   insert-prototypes
	Generate and insert ANSI C prototype definitions for the
	current buffer.  The program specified by `proto-program' is
	used to do the actual prototype generation.  The options
	specified by `proto- options' are also passed to the
	`proto-program'.

   ispell-buffer
	Check the current buffer for spelling errors interactively.
	The variable which should be buffer or mode specific
	ispell-filter-hook is called to filter out text processing
	commands.

   ispell-region
	Check a region for spelling errors interactively.  The
	variable which should be buffer or mode specific
	ispell-filter-hook is called to filter out text processing
	commands.

   ispell-word
	Check spelling of word at or before dot.  If word not found in
	dictionary, display possible corrections in a window and let
	user select.

   jbm-shell
	Run an inferior shell, with I/O through buffer *shell*.

	If buffer exists but shell process is not running, make new
	shell.  Shell program used comes from variable SHELL, or
	defaults to /bin/ksh.  The buffer is put in jbm-shell-mode,
	which gives you a number of facilities for interacting with
	the shell.

	A negative prefix argument causes further shell windows
	(*shell<2>*, *shell<3>*, etc.)  to be created.  A positive
	argument causes the shell window with that number to be
	selected, instead of *shell* (which is number 1).  Shells with
	numbers > 1 must be created explicitly; shell 1 is created
	automatically if it does not already exist.

	The current directory of the shell is the same as the
	default-directory from which the command was given.

   kill-region-wimpy
	Like kill-region, this deletes the text between BEG and END,
	and stuffs it in the kill ring.  (Interactively, uses the
	region.)  However, it asks you if you really want to delete a
	large chunk of text.

   lint
	Run lint(1) on specified buffer and collect output in a
	buffer.  While lint runs asynchronously, you can use the C-x `
	command to find the text that lint gripes refer to.

   lint-goto-problem
	Show the file and line responsible for the lint output under
	the cursor.

   lispref-search
	Symbol is regexps.  Search lispref manual, display text in
	other-window.

   make-c-prologue
	Make up nice software development-type prologue for the C
	routine enclosing or after point.  If ARG is non-nil, then ask
	for section text, each in its own buffer (see doc for
	c-prologue-section-alist).  Leaves point at top of C defun.
	Leaves mark at start of prologue.

   math
	Run Mathematica, input and output via buffer *math*.

   math-mode
	Major mode for interacting with Mathematica and editing .m
	files.

   start-math
	Starts a Mathematica process in the current buffer.

   netunam
	(NOTE: OBSOLETE AS OF HP-UX 8.0)  Open a network connection to
	another machine using RFA.  PATH is the full name of network
	special file for the machine, LOGIN is the name to login as.

	If netunam is called programatically, it will only prompt for
	a password if LOGIN contains a ':' as its last character (just
	like netunam(1)). If netunam is called interactively, it will
	always prompt for a separate login and password. If the login
	contains no password, the user may hit <return> right after
	the password prompt. To close a network connection, hit
	<return> after being prompted for a login.

	Netunam will always give a message on the status of the
	connection when it finishes, and will also signal an error and
	return nil if the connection cannot be made.  Users wanting a
	"quiet" netunam to call programatically should call the
	function (sysnetunam PATH LOGIN) directly, as that function
	will only return t/nil to give the status of the netunam
	system call.

	The variable netunam-network-file-path may be changed (with
	setq) to match the configuration of your machine's network
	special file directory.

	Every successful netunam will automatically update the
	variable netunam-host-alist in order to allow other programs
	to determine which hosts/logins have been netunamed.  This
	variable should be read only.  Do M-X describe-variable
	netunam-host-alist for more information.

   new-find-file
	Like find-file, but does a server-netunam if necessary.

   next-buffer
	Switch editing to the next buffer.  A list (in regexp form) of
	buffers to skip over are contained in the variable
	next-buffers-to-skip.

   occur-menu
	Show menu of lines containing match for REGEXP.  Enters
	recursive edit on text showing an entry for each matching
	line.  User can move to an entry and then exit with C-c C-e to
	move to the line in the original buffer described by the
	selected entry.  Abort with C-] to avoid moving in the
	original buffer.

	If REGEXP is empty then THE EXACT SAME menu is presented
	again, with cursor initially at the next successive entry.
	This is useful for stepping through located lines rapidly in
	order.

   pascal-mode
	This is a mode intended to support program development in
	Pascal.  Most control constructs and declarations of Pascal
	can be inserted by typing Control-C followed by a character
	mnemonic for the construct.  Generally, the functions expect
	to be invoked right after typing M-x pascal-newline, except
	for array, record, and proc/func body which start at the end
	of a line.  Elements of the construct to insert are prompted
	for.  Optional elements have prompts in square brackets[].

   pass-to-sh
	Pass the line that point is on to shell.

   ps-mode
	A major-mode for sending signals to processes.  In ps-mode,
	you indicate signals to send to UNIX processes.  Signals are
	marked on the left hand side of the display using an
	abbreviated name.

   query-exit-from-emacs
	A function to bind to C-x C-c to query the user if he really
	wants to exit Emacs.

   rcs-ci
	Check in a file to rcs.

   rcs-co
	Check out a file from rcs.

   rcs-show-diff
	Pops up a buffer showing the difference between FILENAME and
	REVISON.  If FILENAME is not specified, the file for the
	current buffer is used.  If REVISION is not specified, the
	revision that the user has locked is used.  Failing that, the
	latest revision is used.

   re-search-backward-command
	Search backward from point for match for regular expression
	REGEXP.  Set point to the beginning of the match, and return
	t.  Optional second argument REPEAT (prefix argument
	interactively) is the number of times to repeat the search.

   re-search-forward-command
	Search forward from point for regular expression REGEXP.  Set
	point to the end of the occurrence found, and return t.
	Optional second argument REPEAT (prefix argument
	interactively) is the number of times to repeat the search.

   read-load-hook
	Read the next input form and add it as a load hook for FILE.
	If a call to read-load-hook is in a file that is being loaded,
	the next lisp expression after it will be read as the load
	hook.

   read-msdos
	Function to strip <cr><lf> sequence out of a file when read.

   results-of-command
	Execute the given COMMAND with &rest ARGS, and return the
	resulting output as a string.

   rmb-insert-line-numbers
	Add line numbers to an rocky mountain basic file

   save-help
	Sometimes you want to save the *Help* buffer for later
	examination, e.g., when you do an apropos.  save-help will
	rename the *Help* buffer *Help<1>*, *Help<2>*, etc., so the
	information won't get clobbered by further help requests.

   search-backward-command
	Search backward from point for STRING.  Set point to the
	beginning of the occurrence found, and return t.  Optional
	second argument REPEAT (prefix argument interactively) is the
	number of times to repeat the search.

   search-forward-command
	Search forward from point for STRING.  Set point to the end of
	the occurrence found, and return t.  Optional second argument
	REPEAT (prefix argument interactively) is the number of times
	to repeat the search.

   search-manpath-for-cat-directories
	Return a list of all 'cat' directories in the current path
	specified by the 'MANPATH' environment variable.

   see-chars
	Displays characters typed, terminated by a 3-second timeout.

   server-start
	Allow this Emacs process to be a server for client processes
	(this is for gnuserv(1L) -- see the corresponding man page).
	This starts a server communications subprocess through which
	client "editors" can send editing commands to this Emacs job.

   set-c-style
	Set up the c-mode style variables from STYLE if it is given,
	or default-c-style otherwise.  It makes the c indentation
	style variables buffer local.

   show-time
	Display the current time repeatedly in large characters.
	Optional SLEEPTIME gives number of seconds between updates
	(default is 5 seconds).  Any input pending terminates the
	loop, and restores the original screen configuration (if the
	input is a space character, it is discarded).  If SLEEPTIME is
	negative, append a cute quote to the time.

   sql-mode
	This mode provides both for editing of sql files and for the
	transmittal to another process of sql statements.  This later
	ability provides a significant functionality improvement over
	either 'isql' (from Sybase) or 'sqlplus' (from Oracle).

   strip-line-numbers
	Strip Basic line numbers from file

   sum-column
	Return the sum of the integers in the rectangle delimited by
	START and END. Interactively, it prints the sum as well, and
	uses the region.

   sum-region
	Adds up the numbers in the region START to END.  Primitive as
	yet.  If called interactively, uses the region and prints the
	sum in a message.  Ignores things that aren't numbers or
	signs, so $1 + $4 will sum to 5, and 1 -4 will sum to -3.  Of
	course, it's really dumb, and things like 2*3 - 5 will sum to
	2+3+5 = 10 -- as will 2 + 3.5.  Improvements welcomed.

   super-apropos
	Show symbols whose names/documentation contain matches for
	REGEXP.  If optional argument DO-ALL is non-nil, does more
	(time-consuming) work such as showing key bindings and
	documentation that is not stored in the documentation file.
	Returns list of symbols and documentation found.

   symbol-around-point
	Return the symbol around the point as a string.

   template-mode
	Toggle template-mode, a minor mode for manipulation of text
	via templates.  Calls 'template-mode-hook' if it is defined.

   tinymud
	Connect to a tinymud host and play tinymud.  Note that the
	variables `tinymud-server' and `tinymud- port' may have to be
	set before this function can be executed.

   unix-apropos
	Display apropos for TOPIC

   unix-apropos-get-man
	Get the manual entry for the current line

   visit-vi-tags-table
	Tell tags commands to use ctags tag table file FILE.  FILE
	should be the name of a file created with the `ctags' program.
	A directory name is ok too; it means file "tags" in that
	directory.  This function should be used in conjunction with
	`find-vi-tag' to look for Vi tags.

   vkill
	Mode for displaying all UNIX processes owned by the current
	user (all the processes on the system if invoked by the
	superuser) and allowing the user to mark processes to be sent
	a certain signal.  Processes are marked by moving the cursor
	to the line displaying information about the victim process
	and typing `m' to mark the process.

   word-around-point
	Return the word around the point as a string.

   write-msdos
	Function to change <lf> to <cr><lf> for MS-DOS files.

   x-HP-get-icon-name
	Get the name of the Emacs icon.  If an X error occurred while
	trying to get the name, nil is returned.

   x-HP-get-window-attributes
	Get the window attributes of the Emacs X-window.

   x-HP-get-window-name
	Get the name of the Emacs X window.

   x-HP-get-window-state
	Get the state of the Emacs X-Window.

   x-HP-iconify
	Iconify the X window.

   x-HP-move-window
	Move the Emacs X window to a specified location (X,Y).

   x-HP-remap-window
	Map/un-iconify the Emacs X-window.  This function simply calls
	x-remap-window and is provided only for consistency with the
	`x-HP-' prefix naming convention.  All future functions should
	use `x-HP- remap-window' instead of `x-remap-window' to insure
	ease-of-porting if and when GNU Emacs V19 is released.

   x-HP-resize-window
	Resize the Emacs X window to the size given by WIDTH and
	HEIGHT.

   x-HP-set-icon-name
	Set the name of the Emacs X icon to NAME.

   x-HP-set-window-name
	Set the name of the Emacs X window to be NAME.


9. The following are some new variables:

   x-HP-font-height
	The height of the current font in pixels.
	
   x-HP-font-width
	The width of the current font in pixels.

10. You can now netunam from within Emacs.  Just issue M-x netunam.
    (NOTE: THIS WILL BE OBSOLETE WITH HP-UX 8.0)

gerwitz@hpcore.Kodak.Com (Paul Gerwitz) (04/24/91)

In article <430045@hpnmdla.hp.com>, darrylo@hpnmdla.hp.com (Darryl Okahata) writes:
|> In comp.sys.hp, scottm@spiderman.spider.co.uk (Scott Mackie) writes:
|> 
|> > The GNU stuff especially has been a pain (I even got assembler patches from
|> > HP Support for Emacs 18.55) although I'm told recent releases have better
|> > support for HPUX.
|> 
|>      This year, people within HP contributed a number of programs to
|> Interex (an HP user's group), for inclusion on their contrib tape.
|> Among these was a copy of a version of GNU Emacs used within HP.  It's
|> basically vanilla GNU Emacs with a *lot* of added features; I've
|> included a list of features at the end of this message.
|> 
|>      If anyone is bringing up GNU Emacs for the first time on an HP
|> workstation, I recommend getting a copy of the Interex contrib tape with
|> this version of Emacs, as it is a complete package with full
|> laserjet-ready documentation.  Note, however, that this is a completely
|> unsupported program.
|> 
|>      -- Darryl Okahata
|> 	UUCP: {hplabs!, hpcea!, hpfcla!} hpnmd!darrylo
|> 	Internet: darrylo%hpnmd@relay.hp.com
|> 
This version of EMACS is part of the 3110 release of the Interex
Contributed Software Library CSL/HPUX.  The CSL is one of the benefits of
membership in Interex, the International Association of HP Computer Users.

{I should know, I'm the CSL/HPUX committee chair}

Contact Interex at (408) 738-4848, ask to talk to Steve Souza.  
-- 
 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Paul F Gerwitz  WA2WPI  | SMTP: gerwitz@kodak.com                          |
 | Eastman Kodak Co        | UUCP: ..uunet!atexnet!kodak!eastman!gerwitz      |
 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
-- 
 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Paul F Gerwitz  WA2WPI  | SMTP: gerwitz@kodak.com                          |
 | Eastman Kodak Co        | UUCP: ..uunet!atexnet!kodak!eastman!gerwitz      |
 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

mat@cdbhp1.UUCP (W Mat Waites) (04/25/91)

First - scottm@spider.co.uk writes:
> The GNU stuff especially has been a pain

Then - lynch@theory.tn.cornell.edu (Tim Lynch) writes:
> I don't understand. We're running 18.55 on an 800 series machine and built
> it with no problem.

Then - scottm@spider.co.uk writes:
> Well, a quick look at uname says 
> 
> $ uname -a
> HP-UX spiderma 7.0 B 9000/375 spiderma

AHA - Maybe it would be a good idea to include in all "problem report"
postings which series of machines (300-400 or 700-800) you are having
trouble with. Especially if there is assembly involved.

Oh, well. I guess we won't have to worry about the 300's much longer, anyway.

Mat

-- 
W Mat Waites   mat@cdbhp1.UUCP |  Unlike most of you, I am not a nut.
{gatech,emory}!cdbhp1!mat      |             -H. Simpson

jim@tiamat.fsc.com ( IT Manager) (04/25/91)

In article <101950207@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com>, jbb@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Jim B. Byers) writes:
> 
> R4, Motif 1.1 libraries and servers are standard with HP-UX 8.0.  Also
> scalable typefacces in X11 are shipped as standard in 8.0.  Motif
> 1.1 libraries can be purchased for 7.0 by ordering product B1177A.
> 

I think I'm getting confused by the fact that the same OS version number
is being used for HP's workstations (300/700) and multi-user machines (800).

Does the statement "R4, Motif 1.1, etc." above mean that those products
are in HP-UX 8.0, or that the 8.0 version of HP's X windows contains
those products?
------------- 
James B. O'Connor			jim@tiamat.fsc.com
Ahlstrom Filtration, Inc.		615/821-4022 x. 651

ian@rathe.cs.umn.edu (Ian Hogg) (04/25/91)

In article <430045@hpnmdla.hp.com> darrylo@hpnmdla.hp.com (Darryl Okahata) writes:
>In comp.sys.hp, scottm@spiderman.spider.co.uk (Scott Mackie) writes:
>
>> The GNU stuff especially has been a pain (I even got assembler patches from
>> HP Support for Emacs 18.55) although I'm told recent releases have better
>> support for HPUX.
>
>     This year, people within HP contributed a number of programs to
>Interex (an HP user's group), for inclusion on their contrib tape.
>Among these was a copy of a version of GNU Emacs used within HP.  It's
>basically vanilla GNU Emacs with a *lot* of added features; I've
>included a list of features at the end of this message.
>
>     If anyone is bringing up GNU Emacs for the first time on an HP
>workstation, I recommend getting a copy of the Interex contrib tape with
>this version of Emacs, as it is a complete package with full
>laserjet-ready documentation.  Note, however, that this is a completely
>unsupported program.
>

   When I first got Emacs running on HP-UX (my first experience whatsoever
   with Emacs) I followed the instructions instructions that came with it
   and had to think hard about certain defines and such.  When we got 
   Softbench it included detailed instructions on how to build Emacs for
   HPUX.  Maybe someone can post that file or place it somewhere for ftp.

   If you are using Emacs & X, please take a look at Epoch.  I prefer it
   to the vanilla X support.

>     -- Darryl Okahata
>	UUCP: {hplabs!, hpcea!, hpfcla!} hpnmd!darrylo
>	Internet: darrylo%hpnmd@relay.hp.com
>
>DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not
>constitute the support, opinion or policy of Hewlett-Packard or of the
>little green men that have been following him all day.
>
-- 
Ian Hogg                        email:  rathe!ian@cs.umn.edu
                                        ...!umn-cs!rathe!ian
Rathe, Inc                              ianhogg@cs.umn.edu
366 Jackson Street              phone:  (612) 225-1401

mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) (04/25/91)

>The patches that I applied were to some 68XXX assembler in the src dir... I think
>it was alloca.s. Obviously that doesn't apply to the 800's....
>
>I can dig out the notes I got from HP Support if anyone's interested...

So it's not an "assembler patch" - that would mean there was a problem with the
assembler.  It's a "source patch", in this case meaning the problem is with
the software.

alloca() and crt0 are not things that "portable" programs should be messing
with.  Doing so merely guarantees your software will not be portable.  Software
that adheres to standards (POSIX especially) should port with no problem.

--------------
Marc Sabatella (marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com)
Disclaimers:
	2 + 2 = 3, for suitably small values of 2
	Bill and Dave may not always agree with me

harry@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Harry Phinney) (04/29/91)

James B. O'Connor writes:
> Jim B. Byers writes:
>> 
>> R4, Motif 1.1 libraries and servers are standard with HP-UX 8.0.  Also
>> scalable typefacces in X11 are shipped as standard in 8.0.  Motif
>> 1.1 libraries can be purchased for 7.0 by ordering product B1177A.

> Does the statement "R4, Motif 1.1, etc." above mean that those products
> are in HP-UX 8.0, or that the 8.0 version of HP's X windows contains

HP-UX 8.0 for the series 300, 700, and 800 machines contains R4 based
libraries and X servers, and Motif 1.1.

Harry Phinney   harry@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com

scottm@spiderman.spider.co.uk (Scott Mackie) (04/29/91)

In article <7370381@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) writes:
|> >The patches that I applied were to some 68XXX assembler in the src dir... I think
|> >it was alloca.s. Obviously that doesn't apply to the 800's....
|> >
|> >I can dig out the notes I got from HP Support if anyone's interested...
|> 
|> So it's not an "assembler patch" - that would mean there was a problem with the
|> assembler.  It's a "source patch", in this case meaning the problem is with
|> the software.

Uhh, yeah.... My fault for sloppy typing... Mind you, anyone who thinks I'd apply
a patch to as(1) instead of fixing the source is being a tad silly ;-) 

|> alloca() and crt0 are not things that "portable" programs should be messing
|> with.  Doing so merely guarantees your software will not be portable.  Software
|> that adheres to standards (POSIX especially) should port with no problem.

The patches, as I remember (I ask for artistic licence here as it's been about
9 months !), were to the pieces of code *inside* the HP assembler switches
in alloca.s. I don't see that affecting future ports to other manufacturers 
platforms.

Scott.....

p.s. POSIX and Portability? Shurely Shome Mistake? ;-)


-- 
Spider Systems Limited				Net:	scottm@spider.co.uk
Spider Park, Stanwell Street, Edinburgh		YellNet: +44 31 554 9424

#include <disclaimer.h>				"Rockin' Good, Peanut!"

franks@hpuamsa.neth.hp.com (Frank Slootweg CRC) (05/03/91)

Scott Mackie writes :

>|> alloca() and crt0 are not things that "portable" programs should be messing
>|> with.  Doing so merely guarantees your software will not be portable.  Software
>|> that adheres to standards (POSIX especially) should port with no problem.
>
>The patches, as I remember (I ask for artistic licence here as it's been about
>9 months !), were to the pieces of code *inside* the HP assembler switches
>in alloca.s. I don't see that affecting future ports to other manufacturers 
>platforms.

  No offense, but I think you still don't get it. I think what Marc
(Sabatella) meant is that portable programs should not *use/depend_on*
things like alloca() and crt0, so a patch for something you are not
supposed to use is a moot point. Agreed?

> Uhh, yeah.... My fault for sloppy typing... Mind you, anyone who thinks I'd apply
> a patch to as(1) instead of fixing the source is being a tad silly ;-) 

  And so is anyone using/depending_on alloca() and/or crt.0 in a
"portable" program.

Frank Slootweg, working but not speaking for HP.

jason@hpcndjdz.CND.HP.COM (Jason Zions) (05/13/91)

>> > Does HPUX support long filenames, symlinks, job control, sockets, NFS?
>> 
>> Yes, since HP-UX Releases 6.5 [s300] and 2.0 [s800], respectively.
>
>Long file name support is there only if you've converted your file systems.
>If you're writing commercial software you'll have to work with the 14 character
>limit. Not all third parties have adapted to the 6.0 changes much less 6.5
>and 7.0. There are issues regarding building your own libraries too. The 14
>character limit crops up again.

If you're writing commercial software you can either (a) restrict yourself
to just 14-byte characters, or (b) require your customers to use LFN (long
file name) filesystems. Option (a) may make life easier if you intend to
port to stock SVR[23]; option (b) may cause customerw stuck with SFN to
curse you. (Some applications explicitly require short-names and break if
run on LFN filesystems; this is the reason for continued SFN support.)

Of course, I'd personally recommend choice (c), which is to make use of the
pathconf() call to ascertain the actual limit on filenames in a particular
directory and adjust your operation accordingly; a little more work in the
coding, but a maximally-portable solution that will please more people than
either (a) or (b).

>> > Does uucp work reliably at 19200 bps? Is it a solid version of uucp?
> 
>Yes, HP runs HDB, and is solid an 19200. If you're using a series 300 machine
>the internal port is a no-no (it is serviced by main CPU... and thus slows
>things down). You'll want a 4 port mux... of which only one port can be
>used with a modem. Argh.

As has been pointed out, there is an 8-port mux board which supports modem
connects on all 8 ports. Also, the built-in serial port on Series 300
machines which predate the 370 have a 1-byte FIFO which prevents reliable
operation at 19200. The serial connection on the 375 (and I think 345 as
well) have a much larger FIFO and have no troubles at full speed. The 98625
serial card should have no troubles.

>> > Does HPUX provide lpr or does it only provide lp?
>> 
>The printing subsystem is based on SysV. It uses a printer script and there
>is no printcap (ala BSD printer subsystem). Having used both I prefer the
>System V... I found it easier to bend to my will.

Interesting observation! :-) Adding postscript support is pretty easy, and
the lp subsystem will interoperate with lpr over the network.

>> > How good (fast, robust) is HP's implementation of X?  Does it include
>> > all of X11R4?  Is it reasonably close to X11R4?  Does the MIT X11R4
>> > distribution build on a 9000/730?  Is the R5 distribution likely to?
>> > Do HP document their graphics hardware enough to port a window system?

The 700 will run X11R4. The MIT distribution should build on the 730 with no
troubles. The R5 distribution almost certainly will; there's a lot of HP
gear involved at MIT. The 700 is the current X performance champion, and the
HP X implementation has always had a reputation for solidity. The only
remaining issue is whether HP will ship libXaw.a (i.e. the Athena widgets)
or require folks to acquire the Athena goo and build it themselves. The
issue HP has to wrestle with is whether shipping the Athena widgets as part
of the product forces us to support them and bugfix them to the level of
solidity represented by the HP-written parts of the product; we're not sure
we can spare the resources to do that. Still under discussion.

>> > How does HP's 19'' monitor compare to the Trinitron that Sun ships?
>> > How about the keyboard and mouse?  How noisy/hot would a system with
>> > two internal 400Mb disks be?  Would it be reasonably pleasant in an
>> > office environment?  Does it connect directly to thinwire ethernet? Is
>> > HP hardware generally reliable?
>
>HP's monitors are superior in resolution and clarity to what Sun ships. I
>consider Sun's monitors to be PC class in resolution, clarity, and quality.
>HP's monitors are professional. Higher resolution (if you opt for it), always
>clearer, and very reliable (come on now, we're talking HP here, hardware
>quality is a specailty of this company).

For all display models of the 700 other than the PVRX, the monitor is a
72MHz Hitachi; the PVRX family uses a 60MHz Sony Trinitron. Sonys weren't
used for the other displays because of the lack of a 72MHz display, which is
increasingly a mandatory requirement in Europe. Early shipments of the
Hitachi suffered from some misconfiguration at the factory resulting in
impaired display quality; the fixes are well understood and are covered
under the 90-day warranty, if memory serves. Currently shipping Hitachis are
properly adjusted.

>Other things you should know. HP wrote their own networking years ago. It's
>a little wierd. They're fixing it. 8.0 is the magic release again. They may
>not actually be planing to call it 8.0... but it should give you the right
>idea.

Networking in the 8.0 releases of HP-UX (including the 700s) is based on the
BSD4.3 source. In the past, the kernel portions of networking were 4.2 based
with user-space commands somewhere in the continuum of patched-4.2 through
patched-post-4.3. All commands are now 4.3 or better.

>> ***********************************************************************
>> DISCLAIMER: All of the information above is provided for informative
>> purposes only, as my own opinion, and may be false.  I am not authorized
>> by HP to make binding statements.  An HP sales representative will
>> be able to give you such answers.

Applies to me as well.

Jason Zions

corrigan@weber.ucsd.edu (Michael J. Corrigan) (05/15/91)

In article <1730085@hpcndjdz.CND.HP.COM} jason@hpcndjdz.CND.HP.COM (Jason Zions) writes:
....
}
}Networking in the 8.0 releases of HP-UX (including the 700s) is based on the
}BSD4.3 source. In the past, the kernel portions of networking were 4.2 based
}with user-space commands somewhere in the continuum of patched-4.2 through
}patched-post-4.3. All commands are now 4.3 or better.

	Is arp replacing probe ? (i.e. can bootpd be ported simply)

}
}}} ***********************************************************************
}}} DISCLAIMER: All of the information above is provided for informative
}}} purposes only, as my own opinion, and may be false.  I am not authorized
}}} by HP to make binding statements.  An HP sales representative will
}}} be able to give you such answers.
}
}Applies to me as well.
}
}Jason Zions

coolidge@speaker.sgi.com (Don Coolidge) (05/16/91)

In article <5351@network.ucsd.edu> corrigan@weber.ucsd.edu (Michael J. Corrigan) writes:
>In article <1730085@hpcndjdz.CND.HP.COM} jason@hpcndjdz.CND.HP.COM (Jason Zions) writes:
>....
>}
>}Networking in the 8.0 releases of HP-UX (including the 700s) is based on the
>}BSD4.3 source. In the past, the kernel portions of networking were 4.2 based
>}with user-space commands somewhere in the continuum of patched-4.2 through
>}patched-post-4.3. All commands are now 4.3 or better.
>
>	Is arp replacing probe ? (i.e. can bootpd be ported simply)
>
>}Jason Zions

(Hi, Jason!)

Movie dialogue:

"...and why did you come to Casablanca, Monsieur Rick?"
"I came for the waters."
"But there are no waters here!"
"I was misinformed."

ARP is not replacing Probe for the simple reason that ARP has always 
been there. ARP and Probe have shared an address-resolution cache since
HP-UX 1.0 on the s800, and at least since 6.0 on the s300. ARPs and 
Probe VNAs have both been sent and received, so your question rests
on a misunderstanding. (They coexisted to permit both Ethernet and 
IEEE 802.3 address resolution. In 8.0, parts of that relationship are
redefined to focus primarily on ARP, but it still works concurrently
with Probe.)

If, however, you mean "...is the BSD arp command supported in 8.0?",
the answer is probably "yes" - at least, it was included when I left HP.
As Jason says, 8.0 networking is 4.3BSDish, and the arp command is part
of that. It wasn't included in HP's 4.2ish (pre-8.0) port, though - and
anyone who attempted to compile and use it would find that there was no
such thing as "arptab" to examine and/or modify (and, no, I'm not about
to give the pre-8.0 shared cache name. Get it from your HP rep if you want
to play with it, but be aware that there are *no* guarantees you won't
crash the system by doing so, since the only way to write to it is by writing
directly to the kernel; there's no ioctl support for doing that with
spl() protection...).

- Don Coolidge
coolidge@speaker.wpd.sgi.com

jwright@cfht.hawaii.edu (Jim Wright) (05/17/91)

jason@hpcndjdz.CND.HP.COM (Jason Zions) writes:
>The 700 is the current X performance champion, and the
>HP X implementation has always had a reputation for solidity.

No question about the performance of the 700.  But for the day that is
was using a 720, mwm dumped core at least a dozen times.  But it dumped
core *fast*.

>The only
>remaining issue is whether HP will ship libXaw.a (i.e. the Athena widgets)
>or require folks to acquire the Athena goo and build it themselves.

Yes, please!  Put it in /usr/unsupported if you have to, but include it.
We know you use it internally, since you ship xload.

--
Jim Wright
jwright@cfht.hawaii.edu
Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope Corp.

jason@hpcndjdz.CND.HP.COM (Jason Zions) (05/22/91)

As far as I know, bootp is shipped with HP-UX 8.0, so there's little need to
port it. If you wanted to port it, it should port. The "arp" command is part
of 8.0 as well.

Hello to you too, Don Coolidge!

Jazz
#include <usual_disclaimer.h>

clarke@hpfcmgw.HP.COM (Clarke Echols) (06/03/91)

> Uh, doesn't DWB, besides n/troff, eql, tbl, also contain programs like
> pic and those writing style checkers whose names I can't remember?
> Anyway, none of this is in HP-UX either.  Just neqn, tbl and nroff.

DWB requires a separate license from AT&T.  Since variants of that
package is available from several third-party vendors, HP has chosen
not to compete with them.  DWB includes troff, eqn, pic, and tbl.
HP-UX provides nroff, neqn, and tbl.

We are currently using Elan's eroff package to produce the HP-UX
reference with output to a LaserJet PostScript printer for post-8.0
editions with generally satisfactory results.  The 8.0 edition of the
"brick" as we call it was produced using an HP derivation of AT&T troff
on an Autologic phototypesetter.

WWB (Writers Work Bench) from AT&T is a separate package that also
requires its own license.  It contains numerous programs for evaluating
grammar, spelling, sentence structure, and other similar tasks.  We
bought a copy several years ago directly from AT&T and it ran with no
problems on a Series 500 system.  However, it gets little use in our
department today.

The above statements are simply an explanation of how we do things in
one department of HP.  They are not intended as an endorsement nor a
criticism of any given product.

Clarke Echols
HP-UX Learning Products

simon@liasun2.epfl.ch (Simon Leinen) (06/04/91)

In article <17780029@hpfcmgw.HP.COM> clarke@hpfcmgw.HP.COM (Clarke
Echols) writes:

   DWB requires a separate license from AT&T.  Since variants of that
   package is available from several third-party vendors, HP has
   chosen not to compete with them.  DWB includes troff, eqn, pic, and
   tbl.  HP-UX provides nroff, neqn, and tbl.

All of these programs, along with drivers for PostScript(TM), TeX DVI
format, X11 and ASCII/ISO Latin-1, are available in the copylefted
(i.e. freely redistributable) Groff package from the Free Software
Foundation.  I use them to print all kinds of roff'ed documentation
and I am very happy with them.  You have to have a C++ compiler though
(I used G++ 1.39.1, but the newer AT&T CC should work).

You can get them via anonymous FTP from prep.ai.mit.edu, file
/pub/gnu/groff-1.01.tar.Z (927440 bytes).
-- 
Simon.