nfotis@ntua.gr (Nikolaos Fotis) (06/21/91)
Greetings, NetPeople! I recently had some experience with a HP 9000/720 demo unit, *no manuals* and I would like just to add my remarks (I hope that's not too late for 8.05...): (machine OS: HP-UX kentayros A.B8.01 A 9000/720 ) pro: its FAST! and it doesn't heat up easily (we notice these things here in Greece!) cons (in no particular order): a. Very bad keyboard, especially the escape key and a rather plastic touch. NO DELETE key! (very bad) and very small control key. proposal: make it a customer option. I would love to have something reasonable like a Northgate keyboard. b. I don't like (really!) the mechanical mouse. It'll need a piece of paper at least in order to stop it from slipping. proposal: give us optical mice with flexible mouse pads. c. The vi and more don't behave so well when I work with more than 24x80 text (console, resizing xterms,etc. Neither eval resize does the trick). I hope that the solution is just a manual away. c. From what I read in this newsgroup, I didn't liked the attitude of stripping out all these BSD goodies, especially when the kernel and the associated data structures are here (e.g. renice()). proposal: make it more BSD 4.3-like where it doesn't collide with SYSV, and add the networking code (ping,etc.) d. We thought about connecting an Exabyte in the future, but the recent posts are discouraging, to say the least. The Exabyte *now* gives 5 GB, and we'll have to do overnight backups over NFS. Clearly, DAT with 2 GB per tape is somewhat behind. proposal: enable that feature, or you'll lose customers! We don't use VUE and the assorted goodies, but the X server we use gives us some troubles (fonts,etc.). Perhaps when the manuals come in, we'll know what's the culprit... That's all for now. Bye, Nick. -- Nikolaos Fotis National Technical Univ. of Athens, Greece 16 Esperidon St., UUCP: mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotis Halandri, GR - 152 32 or InterNet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr Athens, GREECE FAX: (+30 1) 77 84 578
ash@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Art Harkin) (06/24/91)
/ comp.sys.hp / nfotis@ntua.gr (Nikolaos Fotis) / 8:57 am Jun 21, 1991 / > c. From what I read in this newsgroup, I didn't liked the attitude of > stripping out all these BSD goodies, especially when the kernel and > the associated data structures are here (e.g. renice()). > proposal: make it more BSD 4.3-like where it doesn't collide with > SYSV, and add the networking code (ping,etc.) As far as I know you should find the BSD4.3 networking services with minor expections in the first release of HP-UX for the s700. Ping should definetly be among them, do you have Telnet, FTP, /etc/named ? -art Art Harkin ash@cup.hp.com Hewlett Packard Cupertino, CA
perry@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Perry Scott) (06/25/91)
Re: mouse There's a 3rd party "mouse pad" (approx $10US) that makes life much easier. It also has the advantage of reserving some space for the mouse on an otherwise cluttered desk. The pad should be listed in PC catalogs. Perry Scott HP Ft Collins
perry@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Perry Scott) (06/25/91)
Re: 700 Keyboard The keyboard was designed by committee. The layout is the contribution from the business (HP3000) side of the house. Since so much of Un*x involves the CNTL key, its placement next to the caps lock key is quite likely the worst possible choice. The normal workaround here is to pry off the caps lock key with a small screwdriver and throw it away. Same with the Print/Enter key. Perry Scott HP Ft Collins (*) Unix is a trademark of AT&T
rjn@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bob Niland) (06/25/91)
re: > (machine OS: HP-UX kentayros A.B8.01 A 9000/720 ) > a. Very bad keyboard, especially the escape key and a rather plastic touch. > NO DELETE key! (very bad) and very small control key. > proposal: make it a customer option. I would love to have something > reasonable like a Northgate keyboard. The 46021A "ITF" keyboard has a DeleteLine key, a DeleteChar key and an ASCII DEL key. What are you missing? Anyway, an HP-HIL version of the HP "Vectra" PC-101 keyboard is now available in U.S.English and German versions (product kit A2205A, $100 US). This was developed for the new Model 425e, but with the 700 in mind, and is being tested for support on Series 700. I am using one on a 375; HP-UX 7.05, and only the right [Ctrl] key is not yet recognized by system software. Please stand by for an announcement of formal support. > b. I don't like (really!) the mechanical mouse. It'll need a piece of paper > at least in order to stop it from slipping. > proposal: give us optical mice with flexible mouse pads. An adaptor is available (HP 46094A) that converts Honeywell quadrature devices (including many PC "bus" devices) to HP-HIL. This allows use of the Apollo K1410 mouse (aka Logitech P7-3F) as well as a variety of 3rd-party pointing devices, like trackballs. I use an HP M1309A trackball (native HP-HIL) on one of my systems and a Logitech P7 (via quad adaptor) on the other. Regards, Hewlett-Packard Bob Niland Internet: rjn@FC.HP.COM 3404 East Harmony Road UUCP: [hplabs|hpfcse]!hpfcrjn!rjn Ft Collins CO 80525-9599 This response does not represent the official position of, or statement by, the Hewlett-Packard Company. The above data is provided for informational purposes only. It is supplied without warranty of any kind.
hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu (Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy)) (06/25/91)
In article <5570668@hpfcdc.HP.COM> perry@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Perry Scott) writes: >> Re: 700 Keyboard >> >> The keyboard was designed by committee. The layout is the contribution >> from the business (HP3000) side of the house. Since so much of Un*x >> involves the CNTL key, its placement next to the caps lock key is quite >> likely the worst possible choice. >> >> The normal workaround here is to pry off the caps lock key with a small >> screwdriver and throw it away. Same with the Print/Enter key. >> Even the lowly Vectra ES/12 -- which I use in my teaching lab thanks to the generosity of HP -- has a better-feeling and better-layed out keyboard. Since it runs on HP-IL it should be made available as a choice with the workstations too. I find it aesthetically unappetizing to have a keyboard with missing caps (I have seen lots of them at HP ;-) ). And one should not be forced to use xmodmap to get a decent Escape key which is essential for a healthy emacs-life. And as for mousepads -- I got mine "free" with magazine subscriptions Greetings, Hardy -------****------- Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy); Department of Physics, University of California Irvine CA 92717; (714) 856 5543; hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu or MMAYER@UCI.BITNET
jewett@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Bob Jewett) (06/25/91)
> I find it aesthetically unappetizing to have a keyboard with missing > caps (I have seen lots of them at HP ;-) ). Me too. After prying the cap off, I curl some plastic tubing around the post and put the cap back. Bob
lmb@sat.com (Larry Blair) (06/25/91)
In article <5570668@hpfcdc.HP.COM> perry@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Perry Scott) writes:
=Re: 700 Keyboard
=
=The keyboard was designed by committee. The layout is the contribution
=from the business (HP3000) side of the house. Since so much of Un*x
=involves the CNTL key, its placement next to the caps lock key is quite
=likely the worst possible choice.
=
=The normal workaround here is to pry off the caps lock key with a small
=screwdriver and throw it away. Same with the Print/Enter key.
That's a brilliant solution. Makes me wonder about HP engineering. Try
xmodmap. The man page even explains how to turn the CAPS-LOCK into a control
key. Of course you could just pour some epoxy in the key slot.
--
Larry Blair lmb@sat.com {apple,decwrl}!sat!lmbsteve-t@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Steve Taylor) (06/26/91)
| Even the lowly Vectra ES/12 -- | keyboard. Since it runs on HP-IL it should be made available as a | choice with the workstations too. The current Vectra keyboards are IBM-DIN compatible, I believe. HP-IL was a peripheral connection method for HP handhelds, a kind of serial HP-IB, and has nothing in common with HP-HIL (except a few letters :-). The original Vectra keyboard (which was HP-HIL) implemented a definition for keycodes that stood the standard HIL definition on its head (the up/down bit was at the wrong end of the byte). Hence, it is only supported by RMB/WS and not as a keyboard! However, hope springs ... As Bob Niland has posted, there is a PC-101 HIL keyboard now. Regards, Steve taylor NOT A STATEMENT, OFFICIAL OR OTHERWISE, OF THE HEWLETT-PACKARD COMPANY.
campbelr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com (Bob Campbell) (06/27/91)
>=The keyboard was designed by committee. The layout is the contribution >=from the business (HP3000) side of the house. Since so much of Un*x >=involves the CNTL key, its placement next to the caps lock key is quite >=likely the worst possible choice. >= >=The normal workaround here is to pry off the caps lock key with a small >=screwdriver and throw it away. Same with the Print/Enter key. >That's a brilliant solution. Makes me wonder about HP engineering. Try >xmodmap. The man page even explains how to turn the CAPS-LOCK into a control >key. Of course you could just pour some epoxy in the key slot. What do you mean? Mechanical engineering at its best! (:-) Actually, we often use our systems without running X. The key removal is consistant and reversible. In the case of shared systems, I'd still go that way. Telling your sales office that you dislike your current keyboard is still the best action you can take. "Mr. Young, UPS is here with three skidloads of keycaps for you" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Campbell Some times I wish that I could stop you from campbelr@cup.hp.com talking, when I hear the silly things you say. Hewlett Packard - Elvis Costello
perry@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Perry Scott) (06/27/91)
>=The normal workaround here is to pry off the caps lock key with a small >=screwdriver and throw it away. Same with the Print/Enter key. > >That's a brilliant solution. Makes me wonder about HP engineering. Try >xmodmap. The man page even explains how to turn the CAPS-LOCK into a control >key. Of course you could just pour some epoxy in the key slot. >-- >Larry Blair lmb@sat.com {apple,decwrl}!sat!lmb Being an retreaded EE, I found it easier to just whip out the screwdriver than try to remember the command name. :-) The screwdriver always works, regardless of what MIT decides to do to X. Perry
franks@hpuamsa.neth.hp.com (Frank Slootweg CRC) (06/28/91)
Perhaps I am revealing a "secret", but I think you nice (potential) customers in this group deserve to know : Actually we *LOVE* it when you complain only/mainly about our keyboards! It basically means that you very much like the rest of the system/product. That is a big compliment. This does not mean that we do not take complaints about keyboards serious, but especially with regard to layout, it is impossible to please everybody (I for example hate the location of the Esc key on a PC keyboard on a UNIX system), and, as several posters have indicated, there are alternatives. So everything in life is relative: We apparently have done a good job with our 700 systems and perhaps, for some people, somewhat worse with our keyboards. Frank "The Ferrari F40 has the silliest ashtray in the world!" Slootweg, HP, Dutch Customer Response Center.