andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Andy Toy, Applications Support Group) (05/31/88)
Does anyone have any software that will read/write/diskcopy/filecopy commodore format floppies on an ibm pc? I want to download stuff to a IBM PC and then write them to floppies that commodore drives can read without getting someone else to download the stuff for me since I don't have a modem for the commodore. -- Andy Toy, Applications Support Group, Department of Computing Services (DCS), University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1, (519) 885-1211 x3417 UUCP: ...!watmath!watdcsu!andytoy NetNorth/BITNET: andytoy@watdcsu InterNet: andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu andytoy@watdcsu.UWaterloo.ca
artw@pnet01.cts.com (Art Weiss) (06/01/88)
I don't know of any such MS-DOS based program, but you can get Big Blue
Reader for the Commodore 128 which can handle MS-DOS disks. As far as I know
it works on 1571 drives only.
...Artrickm@lakesys.UUCP (Rick) (06/01/88)
In article <4760@watdcsu.waterloo.edu> andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Andy Toy, Applications Support Group) writes: >Does anyone have any software that will read/write/diskcopy/filecopy >commodore format floppies on an ibm pc? I want to download stuff >to a IBM PC and then write them to floppies that commodore drives >can read without getting someone else to download the stuff for me >since I don't have a modem for the commodore. I think what you need to find out is if your Commodore drive can read ibm formatted disks since the the ibm cannot read the commodore format. I hope someone will provide the answer to this since I have often wanted to read disks formated on my IBM PC-AT on my 1571 drive, but have been unsuccessful. Is there a way to get this done? How must the IBM disk be formatted for the 1571 to read it? I have heard that disks formatted on the AT cannot be read by the 1571 no matter how they are formatted, is this correct? rick
nfs0294@dsacg1.UUCP (Glendell R. Midkiff) (06/01/88)
From article <4760@watdcsu.waterloo.edu>, by andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Andy Toy, Applications Support Group): > Does anyone have any software that will read/write/diskcopy/filecopy > commodore format floppies on an ibm pc? I have used a product called "Big Blue Reader" that allows you to copy a Commodore format disk (1571 Drive Only) to MS-DOS format or vice versa. It will not work with a 1541 drive. It has worked really well for me. -- |-----------------------------------------------------------------------| |Glen Midkiff cboscd!osu-cis!dsacg1!gmidkiff | | Phone: (614)-238-9643@DLA, Systems Automation Center, Columbus, Oh. | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
mikep@ism780c.isc.com (Michael A. Petonic) (06/02/88)
In article <719@lakesys.UUCP> rickm@lakesys.UUCP (Rick) writes: >In article <4760@watdcsu.waterloo.edu> andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Andy Toy, Applications Support Group) writes: >>Does anyone have any software that will read/write/diskcopy/filecopy >>commodore format floppies on an ibm pc? I want to download stuff >>to a IBM PC and then write them to floppies that commodore drives >>can read without getting someone else to download the stuff for me >>since I don't have a modem for the commodore. > >I think what you need to find out is if your Commodore drive can read ibm >formatted disks since the the ibm cannot read the commodore format. Almost no chance that you can read IBM diskettes in a Commodore disk drive. There's a better chance that you can write Commodore disks on an IBM. The reason for this is because the Commodore disk drive has the controller built into the disk drive, thereby making it a "smart" disk drive. "Smart" disk drives rarely provide operations other than read sector, write sector, format, etc. No low level interleave/sectoring commands. I know this is so for the Atari 800 lines, and I'm 98% sure this is true of the Commodore. That's why copy protection was so easy to defeat in the early Atari 800 disk releases, and why it was so hard to beat when the software manufacturers started customizing their disk drives to produce the distribution diskettes. -MikeP
simon@ms.uky.edu (George Simon) (06/03/88)
In article <10473@ism780c.isc.com> mikep@ism780c.UUCP (Michael A. Petonic) writes: >In article <719@lakesys.UUCP> rickm@lakesys.UUCP (Rick) writes: > >In article <4760@watdcsu.waterloo.edu> andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Andy Toy, Applications Support Group) writes: > >>Does anyone have any software that will read/write/diskcopy/filecopy > >>commodore format floppies on an ibm pc? I want to download stuff > >>to a IBM PC and then write them to floppies that commodore drives > >>can read without getting someone else to download the stuff for me > >>since I don't have a modem for the commodore. > > > >I think what you need to find out is if your Commodore drive can read ibm > >formatted disks since the the ibm cannot read the commodore format. > >Almost no chance that you can read IBM diskettes in a Commodore disk drive. >There's a better chance that you can write Commodore disks on an IBM IBM drives use an MFM floppy controller. Commodore disks are made using GCR encoding (rather than MFM), so there is little chance of doing anything with a commodore disk on a Pc without reprogramming the controller to do GCR. I guess someone out there could build a GCR floppy controller for a Pc, but there is an easier way. >... The reason for this is because the Commodore disk drive has the >controller built into the disk drive, thereby making it a "smart" disk >drive. "Smart" disk drives rarely provide operations other than >read sector, write sector, format, etc. No low level interleave/sectoring >commands. Have you ever played with the Commodore 1571 disk drive? > >I know this is so for the Atari 800 lines, and I'm 98% sure this is >true of the Commodore. That's why copy protection was so easy to >defeat in the early Atari 800 disk releases, and why it was so >hard to beat when the software manufacturers started customizing their >disk drives to produce the distribution diskettes. > >-MikeP Hmmm. I think the 1571 can read/write a standard 360k dos floppy, and even does a couple of dozen Cp/m (MFM) formats. As a matter of fact, I've done so, and it works quite well. The 1571 can do both MFM and GCR (Commodore) encoding. The Pc drive controllers normally only do MFM. Has anyone ever heard of a GCR controller? Does anyone use GCR besides Commodore? - Simon. <--------------------------------------------------------------------------> <--- Simon Gales@University of Ky 254-9387/257-3597 ---> <--- [simon@ms.uky.edu] | [cbosgd!ukma!simon] | [simon@UKMA.BITNET] ---> <-------------------------------------------------------------------------->
cjl@ecsvax.UUCP (Charles Lord) (06/03/88)
In article <9519@e.ms.uky.edu>, simon@ms.uky.edu (George Simon) writes: > > Has anyone ever heard of a GCR controller? > Does anyone use GCR besides Commodore? Apple started it all with the Apple][ disk drives which are all GCR. But, no, - you can't read Apple<->C64/128. The only GCR controller I ever knew of was the IWM - Integrated Woz Machine that is/was proprietary to Apple. Here's a useless task for you hackers on the net: Interface the IWM to the PC bus to read/write Commodore diskettes. Send entries to Wayne Greene c/o the poor house. Charles Lord cjl@ecsvax.UUCP/BITNET
bobc@killer.UUCP (Bob Calbridge) (06/03/88)
In article <10473@ism780c.isc.com>, mikep@ism780c.isc.com (Michael A. Petonic) writes: [regarding a prior question regarding reading Commodore disks on a PC.] > Almost no chance that you can read IBM diskettes in a Commodore disk drive. > There's a better chance that you can write Commodore disks on an > IBM. The reason for this is because the Commodore disk drive has the > controller built into the disk drive, thereby making it a "smart" disk > drive. "Smart" disk drives rarely provide operations other than > read sector, write sector, format, etc. No low level interleave/sectoring > commands. This is not necessarily true. Under CP/M on the C-128 the operating system takes direct control of the disk drive without using the smart disk drive. In this manner the operating system can read or write a number of different formats including Osborne and Kaypro. I also have a program that can do an IBM format on the C-128. However, the system still cannot read or write the IBM format. This does suggest that a program could be written that would do the read/write operations. I am not the one to undertake the project. Best, Bob
artw@pnet01.UUCP (06/03/88)
I'm surprised that this thread regarding Commodore drives and MS-DOS disks
has gone on this long. The fact is that the 1571 drive can handle MS-DOS disks
and is used by many people in conjunction with Big Blue Reader to read and
write to MS-DOS format disks.
Enough said.
...Arterict@flatline.UUCP (eric townsend) (06/03/88)
In article <4760@watdcsu.waterloo.edu> andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Andy Toy, Applications Support Group) writes: >Does anyone have any software that will read/write/diskcopy/filecopy >commodore format floppies on an ibm pc? I want to download stuff >to a IBM PC and then write them to floppies that commodore drives >can read without getting someone else to download the stuff for me >since I don't have a modem for the commodore. There was an article in _Transactor_, back around the time that the 128's and 1571's came out, that dealt with using the mfm to read/write off of a whole bunch o other formats... [Five minutes later, our hero returns with an old copy of Transactor.] Here we go: "Table 1 is a summary of some of the common MFM disk formats. The list is by no means complete, but can be used as a guide when exploring various types of MFM disks. It is worth noting that many other brands of coputers use formats similar to those outlined in the table. Table 1: Summary Of 1571 Supported CP/M MFM Disk Formats Osborne DD Slicer Epson Euro (SD) Epson QX-10 (SD) Epson QX-101 (DD) IBM CP/M-86 SS IBM CP/M-86 DS Kaypro II Kaypro IV Other MFM Formats: IBM-PC-DOS 1 side; 8 sector 2 side; 8 sector 1 side; 9 sector 2 side; 9 sector TRS-80 DD TRS-80 SD" There's basic and PAL source examples for reading these disks with an explanitory article dealing with MFM itself... Let's see... this is the January 87 issue, Vol7 Issue4. I really liked Transactor when I used my C64 all the time. I wish somebody would make a magazine like it for the UNIX-PC... Ah well... -- Know Future "The tao that can be said is not the everlasting Tao." -- Lao-Tzu J. Eric Townsend ->uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict smail:511Parker#2,Hstn,Tx,77007 ..!bellcore!tness1!/
ross@ziebmef.uucp (Ross Ridge) (06/05/88)
In article <719@lakesys.UUCP> rickm@lakesys.UUCP (Rick) writes: >In article <4760@watdcsu.waterloo.edu> andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Andy Toy, Applications Support Group) writes: >>Does anyone have any software that will read/write/diskcopy/filecopy >>commodore format floppies on an ibm pc? I want to download stuff >>to a IBM PC and then write them to floppies that commodore drives >>can read without getting someone else to download the stuff for me >>since I don't have a modem for the commodore. The IBM PC and Commodore use totally different disk formats (MFM and GRC respecitively). PC drives use the index hole, Commodore drives don't. For this reason it would be unlikely that you could ever read in CBM disk on a PC. However Commodore created the 1571 which has the ability to read both types of disk formats, so the reverse could be done, ie. reading a PC disk on a Commodore. There is programme called "Big Blue Reader" for the 128 that will let you do this. >I hope someone will provide the answer to this since I have often wanted to >read disks formated on my IBM PC-AT on my 1571 drive, but have been >unsuccessful. Is there a way to get this done? How must the IBM disk be >formatted for the 1571 to read it? I have heard that disks formatted on the >AT cannot be read by the 1571 no matter how they are formatted, is this >correct? > IBM AT format disks put more on a disk than IBM PC disks (either by using 96 tpi or quadruple density I'm not sure), and the 1571 can't read these high capacity disks. However if you format and create 360k (IBM PC) format disk on your IBM PC you can use Big Blue Reader to read that disk. -- l/ {uunet!mnetor!lsuc,utgpu}!ncrcan!ziebmef!ross // [OO] or just call me Ross for short... [oo] -()- -()- db 6502 assembly forever! //
rickm@lakesys.UUCP (Rick) (06/06/88)
In article <3066@crash.cts.com> artw@pnet01.cts.com (Art Weiss) writes: > Enough said. > Oh, Art, which someone says "Enough said" it sounds to me like enough hasn't been said. Actually, you are mostly correct, the 1571 drive can read those disks as long as they are not formatted with an AT high density drive...1.2 megs, then you're outta luck. Rick
cgwong@watmath.waterloo.edu (Clint Wong) (06/08/88)
In article <22a54e8a@ralf> Ralf.Brown@B.GP.CS.CMU.EDU writes: >Ah, but the Commodore 1541 (and presumably 1571) has RAM into which you can >load your own programs, thus changing the behavior of the drive (like a >five-fold speedup, playing games with the drive activity light*, etc.) > >* I once saw a drive testing program that programmed the drive to turn on >the drive light whenever the write protect sensor detected a write-protect. > I think the ultimate is a program I have that plays a song on the disk drive by creating a high pitch whine by programming the head to oscillate against the head stop. -- UUCP : {allegra,clyde,decvax,uunet,utai}!watmath!cgwong ARPA : cgwong%watmath.waterloo.edu@csnet-relay.arpa C{S,DN}NET: cgwong@watmath.waterloo.{edu,cdn} < Clint Wong > BITNET : cgwong@water.BITNET < University of Waterloo >
desmarai@iros13.iro.umontreal.ca (Stephane Desmarais) (06/11/88)
In article <19371@watmath.waterloo.edu> cgwong@watmath.waterloo.edu (Clint Wong) writes: >>Oups, I removed the source name :-( >>Ah, but the Commodore 1541 (and presumably 1571) has RAM into which you can >>load your own programs, thus changing the behavior of the drive [...] >I think the ultimate is a program I have that plays a song on the disk >drive by creating a high pitch whine by programming the head to oscillate >against the head stop. Interesting idea. You should try that tonight. Of course, use your own head and a brick wall. I'm sure that new, interesting sounds will emerge :-) (Why didn't they find a way do avoid doing more than one or two bump on the head stop?) -- cccc 666 4 Stephane Desmarais c c 6 44 Departement d'informatique c == 6666 4 4 Universite de Montreal c c 6 6 44444 uunet!utai!musocs!iros1!desmarais cccc 666 4 desmarais%iros1@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu Avis: Sante et bien-etre social Canada considere que le danger pour la sante croit avec l'usage.
erict@flatline.UUCP (j eric townsend) (06/22/88)
In article <565@mannix.iros1.UUCP>, desmarai@iros13.iro.umontreal.ca (Stephane Desmarais) writes: > (Why didn't they find a way do avoid doing more than one or two bump on > the head stop?) It has to do with the way the head resets to track 0. Instead of making a "where is the head now" sensor, they used GCR encoding. The drive reads the GCR encoding data off of the disk, and can figure out where it is. So how does it decide a reference point? Bring the head in towards track zero for X amount of time, where X > amount of time for the head to go all the way across from track 40 to track 0. Voila. Tell the head to go to track 5 when the drive doesn't know where the head is: Reset head towards 0 (clatter clatter clatter). "Ok, I've run the head all the way in, and found some sync marks, this must be track zero. Now I go out to track 5." (Step Step Step Step Step). "Here's some sync marks, this must be track 5." For some real fun, get a simple disk diagnosis program and fiddle with the disk head while the program is running. I convinced my drive that the directory was on track 17 -- when the readout said track 17 I was reading the directory info. The problem was, it looked for it on track 18 (which was really track 19 on the disk) and never found it. So much for that method of copy protection... :-) -- "It was men made her that way, Skate UNIX or go home, boogie boy... it was us made her that way." -- from "Airhead" by Thomas Dolby J. Eric Townsend ->uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict smail:511Parker#2,Hstn,Tx,77007 ..!bellcore!tness1!/
dar@cblpn.ATT.COM (David A Roth) (06/23/88)
I suggest the Big Blue Reader. I am not using my C128/1571 and I am selling it to a friend if you are interested I could let you have my Big Blue Reader cheap. Send me e-mail if interested. AT&T Bell Laboratories David A. Roth Columbus, Ohio uucp: ihnp4!cblpn!dar
Geoffrey_Welsh@isishq.UUCP (Geoffrey Welsh) (06/28/88)
> From: erict@flatline.UUCP (j eric townsend) > Date: 22 Jun 88 05:38:54 GMT > Message-ID: <935@flatline.UUCP> > Instead of making > a "where is the head now" sensor, they used GCR encoding. While the rest of your message is quite accurate, this part suggests that the two are mutually exclusive. GCR is an encoding scheme, just like FM, MFM, or RLL (in fact, GCR is a form of RLL). There is nothing inherent in GCR encoding that prevent the operation of a head position sensor. It's just that Commodore decided not to. With the 4040's, that wasn't a problem. The SA-390 drives were pillars of reliability and, when the disk controller couln't figure out what track the head was on, it sent about 75 half-steps toward the outside of the disk and started looking for track 1. The SA-390 alignment was not damaged by the "knocking" because the stop bumper was slightly elastic, so the circular platter in which the spiral head positioning groove was molded never (well, almost never) slipped on the spindle. The head, because of the way it was guided along the spiral groove, never actually hit anything (if my memory serves me correctly). Personally, I blame the choice of the ALPS drive for the majority of the problem, though the slipping problem is present to varying degrees in all half-height drives (there's no room for the platter with the spiral groove in it). Fortunately, most disk operating systems don't knock the heads often... Geoff {allegra|decvax|utzoo|clyde|etc.!}watmath!isishq!Geoffrey_Welsh