Geoffrey.Welsh@p0.f171.n221.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Geoffrey Welsh) (06/10/89)
While leafing through the comp.sys.cbm archives on Canada Remote Systems, I
discovered a posting that I have not seen here. Since I know that CRS' Usenet
software is still fairly new and might not have been operating perfectly, I
figured that the posting probably never got out at all. Please ignore this
(and forgive me) if you've all seen this before!
I wanted to re-post this for several reasons, a (fleeting) desire for
"fairness" among them. It relates to conversations between Joe Greco and
myself panning Steve Punter and Workable Concepts; it should be noted that
both Steve and WC's front-man, Jeff Goebel, can read all comp.sys.cbm postings
on CRS (the archives there go back a couple of months), but we may not be able
to see all of their postings. If requested to do so, I will pass messages to
these people or bring their attention to specific posting(s).
Enough administrivia, here is the message:
Date: 05-23-89 (19:54) U-CBM Number: 490 (Echo)
To: jgreco@csd4.milw.wisc.edu Refer#: 473
From: JEFF GOEBEL Read: NO
Subj: BBS64 SUPPORT.
Hello Joe.
You are not alone in thinking that Steve was not a great support person,
although I often here users who think he was GREAT at support too. What
Steve didn't do was adapt to other people's ideas.
If it were up to Steve, he'd probably still be writing BBS64 mods... but
times change, and as 64 hardware (IEEE specific) became harder to
maintain, people wanted a cheaper PC version. (Ironic eh? PC -
cheaper?)
In any case, I am happy to be part of (note[ PART OF) the company
supporting the PC-PunterNet, which retains full support of the 64 nodes.
I notice in some of your messages that you're no longer a Punter
software fan, and I can accept that - but I also noticed a knock at
Workable Concepts - or me personally, which aided Geoffry Welsh in an
unsolicited attack/comparison for his DESTERM gain.
For a news network such as this, where advertising isn't supposed to be
allowed, I sure see a lot of "subtle" promotion and attack. Today is my
first exposure to the network, and I see now I have to take a look every
now and then just to see what people are saying about me.
It's not paranoia - It's business. I am not Workable Concepts... I'm
just the guy on the boards. Instead of saying what you don't like, tell
"ME" what's wrong... Maybe we can work together to be better at support
than Steve was. I'm not expecting to win you back... but I'D rather not
have you working against me.
Jeff Goebel
per: Workable Concepts.
- You can't please everybody, and trying displeases more.
--
Geoffrey Welsh - via FidoNet node 1:221/162
UUCP: ...!watmath!isishq!171.0!Geoffrey.Welsh
Internet: Geoffrey.Welsh@p0.f171.n221.z1.FIDONET.ORGjgreco@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Joe Greco) (06/12/89)
In comp.sys.cbm article <2514.249092C2@isishq.FIDONET.ORG>, Geoffrey.Welsh@p0.f171.n221.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Geoffrey Welsh) wrote: ] ] While leafing through the comp.sys.cbm archives on Canada Remote Systems, I ]discovered a posting that I have not seen here. Since I know that CRS' Usenet ]software is still fairly new and might not have been operating perfectly, I ]figured that the posting probably never got out at all. Please ignore this ](and forgive me) if you've all seen this before! _I_ haven't seen this before! ] I wanted to re-post this for several reasons, a (fleeting) desire for ]"fairness" among them. It relates to conversations between Joe Greco and ]myself panning Steve Punter and Workable Concepts; it should be noted that ]both Steve and WC's front-man, Jeff Goebel, can read all comp.sys.cbm postings ]on CRS (the archives there go back a couple of months), but we may not be able ]to see all of their postings. If requested to do so, I will pass messages to ]these people or bring their attention to specific posting(s). Fairness is: People can waste their money in foolish ways, but that does not mean that I will approve. ;-) ] Enough administrivia, here is the message: ] ]Date: 05-23-89 (19:54) U-CBM Number: 490 (Echo) ] To: jgreco@csd4.milw.wisc.edu Refer#: 473 ]From: JEFF GOEBEL Read: NO ]Subj: BBS64 SUPPORT. ] ]Hello Joe. ] ]You are not alone in thinking that Steve was not a great support person, ]although I often here users who think he was GREAT at support too. What ]Steve didn't do was adapt to other people's ideas. Steve would not listen to other people's ideas. That is very true. He also would never admit to a mistake (ranging from minor programming things up to major decisions like the IEEE/serial thing). The initial service I got was rotten: Node 30's BBS64.6 update came incomplete and in a form that caused the machine to entirely lock up. I got no assistance fixing it, besides a suggestion that I ship it *BACK* (anybody seen Canadian/US postal rates? Or the length that it takes to deliver?).... Steve and I got off to a bad start from the very beginning. ]If it were up to Steve, he'd probably still be writing BBS64 mods... but ]times change, and as 64 hardware (IEEE specific) became harder to ]maintain, people wanted a cheaper PC version. (Ironic eh? PC - ]cheaper?) That was Punter's own stupid choice. He could have developed a serial based version of BBS64, but he did NOT. The majority of C64 owners out there use serial equipment. I can see Steve's supposed point about wear and tear, but I myself have SysOps running my software on 1541's, and for several years have had no problems. I was even flexible enough to adapt my severely 1541 specific software (the old version 5) to work on the 1581. That particular system fields no fewer than 30-40 calls per day and works flawlessly. Neither the operator nor I have had to do a shred of real maintenance on that system for a year and a half. That would not be true of a BBS64 installation. And on top of it, I was flexible. I modified the sofware to work with the 1581 way back when nobody knew anything about the 1581. It was a lot of rewriting. But I was responding to a need. I even made changes and added an autoboot cartridge to address a local power-outage problem. That is my idea of "great support." Responsiveness to specific needs and suggestions! That is not what I got from Steve when I told him that my BBS64 was locking up when I tried to use it with my Courier 2400 modems! ]In any case, I am happy to be part of (note[ PART OF) the company ]supporting the PC-PunterNet, which retains full support of the 64 nodes. I hear there isn't too much to support. Second class nodes on a third rate network. ]I notice in some of your messages that you're no longer a Punter ]software fan, and I can accept that The last blow was the MetroNet affair. We had two PunterNet nodes in Milwaukee, mine would have been a third. I wanted to set up a central mail "hub" so that long distance costs would be minimized. Besides, I had a 2400 baud error correcting modem to spare. The only cooperation Steve granted was to allow me to forward Toronto-bound mail through his node. No suggestions, and a generally cold attitude towards the idea. I saw MetroNet as a way to encourage PunterNet use in Milwaukee by lowering overhead costs. Steve's attitude indicated to me that he didn't care if PunterNet lived or died. ]but I also noticed a knock at ]Workable Concepts - or me personally, which aided Geoffry Welsh in an ]unsolicited attack/comparison for his DESTERM gain. As I understand it, WC is footing the bill on this PC-PN rubbish! In addition, I received a WC flyer that really turned me off. I don't recall details, but I could probably look it up. My lasting impression was that the firm should have been named Unworkable Concepts. ]For a news network such as this, where advertising isn't supposed to be ]allowed, I sure see a lot of "subtle" promotion and attack. Today is my ]first exposure to the network, and I see now I have to take a look every ]now and then just to see what people are saying about me. Who's advertising? I'm not. I'm giving my very loud opinion of the state of the only decent Commodore based network in North America, and what I think of certain people/firms who appear to be working against the further development of it. ]It's not paranoia - It's business. I am not Workable Concepts... I'm ]just the guy on the boards. Instead of saying what you don't like, tell ]"ME" what's wrong... Maybe we can work together to be better at support ]than Steve was. I'm not expecting to win you back... but I'D rather not ]have you working against me. How about a serial based copy of BBS64 that will work with the "new" 1670? Expand the size of PunterNet. Make it a growing network instead of a dying network. That's what has turned me off. System shutting down, so I must stop raving now. ]Jeff Goebel ]per: Workable Concepts. ] ]- You can't please everybody, and trying displeases more. -- jgreco@csd4.milw.wisc.edu Joe Greco at FidoNet 1:154/200 USnail: 9905 W Montana Ave PunterNet Node 30 or 31 West Allis, WI 53227-3329 "These aren't anybody's opinions." Voice: 414/321-6184 Data: 414/321-9287 (Happy Hacker's BBS)
blaine.white@canremote.uucp (BLAINE WHITE) (06/14/89)
Thanks for re-posting that message! Alot of it makes sense to me...I used to be Node 80 AND Node 87 on PunterNet...however I opted to go to PCBoard because Steve refused to listen to any of my ideas...They were always shot down by a flippant remark, or an argument. Well, All I can say is: even though I wish PunterNet the best success, I can see it dropping out of sight within a few years, especially if Steve is still in charge. I watched the Net go from over 100 "supposed" Nodes to 30 acutal operating Nodes. Blaine White. * QNet 1.03a2: CONNECTed II 'THE BBS' - Peterborough, Can. (705) 743-7296.
jgreco@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Joe Greco) (06/21/89)
In comp.sys.cbm article <89061907384942@masnet.uucp>, blaine.white@canremote.uucp (BLAINE WHITE) wrote: ]Thanks for re-posting that message! Alot of it makes sense to me...I ]used to be Node 80 AND Node 87 on PunterNet...however I opted to go to ]PCBoard because Steve refused to listen to any of my ideas...They were ]always shot down by a flippant remark, or an argument. (or, when there was a problem, ignoring and denying it).... ] Well, All I can say is: even though I wish PunterNet the best success, ]I can see it dropping out of sight within a few years, especially if ]Steve is still in charge. I watched the Net go from over 100 "supposed" ]Nodes to 30 acutal operating Nodes. It's already dropping out of sight. Network activity has been at a minimum for several years, at least in this area. Most of the operators I knew grew frustrated with "GOD" (Steve Punter, for those who are not familiar) a long time ago. They're dropping like flies. Some are going MS-DOS, some simply are quitting. Steve's attitude towards me when I talked to him about some modem problems seem to be typical. I was running a US Robotics Courier 2400, and the system locked up even operating only at 3/1200. He blamed my modem, and I switched to a 2400e. Same problem. He tried it with his own hardware, and announced that I was full of it because he couldn't duplicate the problems. Such wonderful service. Or the MetroNet affair (I won't bore everyone with a rehash....) Before dealing with him, I was enthusiastic enough about PunterNet to be willing to open a second BBS to support it. After dealing with him, and spending a few hundred dollars on the project, I decided that he was full of **** and that PunterNet wasn't worth the trouble of putting up with his Attitude. ]Blaine White. Joe Greco * Node 30 Owner but not Operator -- jgreco@csd4.milw.wisc.edu Joe Greco at FidoNet 1:154/200 USnail: 9905 W Montana Ave PunterNet Node 30 or 31 West Allis, WI 53227-3329 "These aren't anybody's opinions." Voice: 414/321-6184 Data: 414/321-9287 (Happy Hacker's BBS)