lopes@sdics.ucsd.EDU (alann lopes) (03/15/87)
A few months ago I found a copy of kermit for the
c64. I've used it several times, downloading and
uploading files from UNIX, but I have a problem.
When kermit loads up it tells us that it is in 40
column mode. Can one assume that there is an 80
column mode? Or are they just teasing us?
I acctually have a stupid "bi-80" display (stupid
because most software I have does not work with it)
and kermit will quasi-work, but when I get on UNIX
I don't even see the UNIX-Kermit responses nor can
I do any vi work. What the hell terminal does this
Kermit emulate?
I have 0 doc for this c64 kermit. If anyone has
the doc I would be grateful if you sent me a copy.
thanks in advance
alannugbowen@sunybcs.UUCP (03/20/87)
In article <315@sdics.ucsd.EDU> lopes@sdics.ucsd.EDU (alann lopes) writes: > >When kermit loads up it tells us that it is in 40 >column mode. Can one assume that there is an 80 >column mode? Or are they just teasing us? There is an 80 column mode. Mine defaults to it. It uses the graphics screen to print the characters, so is not very readable without a monochrome monitor. >What the hell terminal does this >Kermit emulate? There is a mode that emulates a vt-52. It's not bad, I've used it quite a bit, but my Kermit can only go 300 baud. So it's not really worth doing much work with it. There is help built right into the program. At the main prompt a '?' (I think) will give a brief description of all the commands. At any point in typing a command you can press the '?' to find out all your next options. For example...just typing a '?' will reviel that there is a SET command. Now typing 'SET ?' will print all the things you can set, and PARITY is one of them. Now 'SET PARITY ?' will print all the ways parity can be set, one of which is EVEN. Now you have 'SET PARITY EVEN' and press return, and your parity will be set. All the help menus work in this way...but it doesn't tell you that. It took me a few weeks to figure this out too. Both setting the 80-column screen and turning the vt-52 emulator on is done with the SET command (I think). After you get the terminal the way you want it you can also save the parameters to disk and it will auto-boot them next time you load up. The command is SAVE or something like that. Good luck. Devon Bowen (KA2NRC) University of Buffalo ******************************************************** csnet: ugbowen@buffalo.CSNET uucp: ..!{allegra,decvax,watmath,rocksanne}!sunybcs!ugbowen BITNET: ugbowen@sunybcs.BITNET BBS: (716) 672-8843 (On-line: Computer Access Center) Voice: (716) 836-7358 USnail: 67 Lisbon Ave; Buffalo, NY; 14214 ********************************************************
sct@a.UUCP (03/20/87)
In article <315@sdics.ucsd.EDU>, lopes@sdics.ucsd.EDU (alann lopes) writes: > A few months ago I found a copy of kermit for the > c64. I've used it several times, downloading and > uploading files from UNIX, but I have a problem. > > When kermit loads up it tells us that it is in 40 > column mode. Can one assume that there is an 80 > column mode? Or are they just teasing us? > To change C64-kermit to 80 column display type the following: set screen-width 80-columns<cr> To revert back to 40 column mode type: set screen-width 40-columns<cr> The '-' is mandatory. C64-Kermit emulates a vt52 and works fairly well. I've used it with 'vi' many times.
nu099138@ndsuvm1.bitnet.UUCP (03/27/87)
Here is the C64 users guide some of you have been looking for!!!!!
KERMIT-65 USERS GUIDE
Commodore 64 Version 1.7(52)
Eric Lavitsky
Center For Computer and Information Services
Rutgers University
Piscataway, New Jersey
This Copy Was Produced On:
Sunday, 11 August 1985 at 11:54
Using Scribe 4(1405)
Introduction Page 1
1. Introduction
1.1. Overview
Authors: David Dermott, DREA
Eric Lavitsky, Rutgers University
Michael Marchiondo, University of New Mexico
Frank Prindle, Naval Air Development Center
Documentation:
Eric Lavitsky, Rutgers University
Version: 1.7(52)
Date: August 1985
C-64 Kermit-65 Capabilities At A Glance:
Local operation: Yes
Remote operation: Yes
Transfers text files: Yes
Transfers binary files: Yes
Wildcard send: No
^X/^Y interruption: Yes
Filename collision avoidance: Yes
Can time out: Yes
8th-bit prefixing: Yes
Repeat count prefixing: No
Alternate block checks: No
Terminal emulation: Yes
Communication settings: Yes
Transmit BREAK: Yes
IBM communication: Yes
Transaction logging: No
Session logging (raw download): No
Raw upload: No
Act as server: No
Talk to server: Yes
Advanced commands for servers: No
Local file management: Yes
Handle file attributes: No
Command/init files: Yes
Printer control: No
KERMIT-65 is a program that implements the KERMIT file transfer protocol for
the Commodore 64 micro computer system. It is written in 6502 assembly language
and should run on any C64. KERMIT-65 also Converts your C64 into a powerful
computer terminal. It emulates the popular Digital Equipment Corporation VT52
terminal or a simple glass TTY. The program handles all conversion of Com-
modore to standard ASCII and can display all 96 standard ASCII characters.
Page 2 C64 KERMIT User Guide
1.2. System Requirements
What you will need:
- C64 and Disk drive
- Modem - any will do (300/1200, VIC, RS232)
- Supermon64.V1 (or any equivalent relocatable monitor)
Implementation Notes Page 3
2. Implementation Notes
2.1. Known Bugs, Restrictions
C64 KERMIT-65 is still under development and may have some minor defficiencies.
The known bugs and restrictions are as follows:
- The SET BAUD option is not fully implemented. To get speeds under 300
baud, you will have to set the RS232-REGISTERS directly. Special
patches to the Kernel RS232 routines have been implemented to allow
reliable operation at 1200 baud. 1800 and 2400 baud have not been so
patched.
- If you change the RS232-REGISTERS directly, the change will not be
reflected in the BAUD, PARITY, or WORD-SIZE parameters.
- If a KERMIT.INI file is not present on the disk, the parameters in
memory get garbaged to an unusable state and must be reset by hand.
- To create a new KERMIT.INI file with the SAVE command, the old
KERMIT.INI file must first be scratched with the DISK command :
(DISK S0:KERMIT.INI).
2.2. HINTS
If you wish to edit BASIC programs on the mainframe system, you should convert
them to text files on the C64 before you send them since the BASIC interpreters
store keywords as single character tokens. If the receiving system does not
handle eight-bit ASCII or CBM ASCII characters well, KERMIT-65 should have its
FILE-BYTE-SIZE set to SEVEN-BIT. It will send standard seven-bit ASCII to the
receiving KERMIT. When KERMIT-65 is receiving from such a system, this will
pick up the seven-bit characters and write out CBM ASCII on the disk file.
2.3. Notes
Please note that typing a '^X' (control-x) at anytime during a file transaction
will quit the current transaction, closing the current file. Kermit can also be
forced to 'timeout' by typing a space at any point in the transaction. Kermit
will then resend the current packet.
2.4. KERMIT Runtime Memory Map
Location Description
-------- ------------------------------------
$0801-$83ff Kermit program area (Reserved Area)
$8400-$87ff Video matrix for both 40 and 80 column modes
$8800-$8fff Character set 1 ram for 40 column mode
$9000-$90ff RS-232 output buffer
$9100-$91ff RS-232 input buffer
$9200-$9fff Reserved for future use
$a000-$bfff Hires screen (80 columns)
Page 4 C64 KERMIT User Guide
2.5. Future Plans
The following items are under consideration for implementation in future ver-
sions of Kermit. Please mail any comments or suggestions to the authors, or im-
plement it yourself and notify the authors.
1. Disk routines could be changed (Use TALK routines instead of CHRIN)
2. Cursor blink rate in parser must be slowed down
3. For sending files, jiffy wait should be a function of current baud
rate!
4. Implement 4 & 5 with a flag indicating connect or command mode.
5. Ability to pause display in parser (CBM key)
6. Add disk commands:
Kermit-65>SCRATCH file
Kermit-65>RENAME newfile=oldfile
7. Change status display scheme for transfer:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Packets: 0 Status...
Retries: 0
Filename: FILENAME.EXT
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Packets: 0 Status...
Retries: 0
Filename: FILENAME.EXT
Additional Data
Seq Number 00
Number Of Data Chars 00
Packet Checksum 00
-----------------------------------------------------------------
etc., etc... something like this anyway - The screen
shouldn't constantly be cleared and redrawn. All pertinent
fields should be written once and then updated as
necessary.
Implement using plot function to move cursor to correct
position. For Verbose debug, display packet info two lines
beneath filename.
Implementation Notes Page 5
-----------------------------------------------------------------
8. Ability to change screen colors:
Kermit-65>SET COLOR nn
9. Add capability of selecting default drive and unit number for trans-
fer.
10. Implement wildcard send - need info on 1541 DOS for this!
11. Disk command parsing should use CMUNQS (unquoted string) parse.
Page 6 C64 KERMIT User Guide
3. Running KERMIT
3.1. Booting KERMIT
Insert your working KERMIT-65 disk into the 1541 drive label side up. Type the
following:
LOAD"KERMIT",8 <cr>
RUN <cr>
The screen will come up with the following message:
Commodore 64 Kermit Version 1.7(52)
40 Column Mode - ? For Help
Kermit-65>
You are now in the KERMIT-65 parser which is modeled after the COMND parser of
the TOPS-20 Operating System from Digital Equipment Corporation. You may now
type commands to the parser to set options or begin actions.
During interactive operation, you may use the ?-prompting help feature ("?")
and recognition (ESC) features while typing commands (The ESC character is
presently ^[ - control Left Bracket or the left arrow key). A question mark
typed at any point in a command displays the options available at that point;
typing an ESC character causes the current keyword to be completed (or default
value to be supplied). If you have not typed sufficient characters to uniquely
specify the keyword or filename (or if there is no default value) then a beep
will be sounded and you may continue typing. Keywords may be abbreviated to
any prefix that is unique.
3.2. Commands in KERMIT
Commands available in version 1.7 of Kermit-65 are:
BYE CONNECT DIRECTORY DISK EXIT FINISH
GET QUIT RECEIVE RESTORE SAVE SEND
SET SHOW STATUS
BYE
This command will cause Kermit-65 to tell a server Kermit at
the other end of the connection to exit from Kermit and, if ap-
plicable, terminate its job (or process, etc.).
KERMIT-65>BYE
CONNECT
The CONNECT command will allow you to connect to a remote job
over the terminal line as a virtual terminal. The format of the
CONNECT command is:
Running KERMIT Page 7
KERMIT-65>CONNECT
To get back to the Kermit parser, type the escape character
followed by a 'C'. The default escape character is ^Y
(control-Y), so to return to Kermit-65 you would type '^YC'.
There are other options to the escape character, these may be
seen by typing a '?' after typing the escape character:
ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:
? - THIS HELP MESSAGE.
B - SEND A BREAK SIGNAL.
C - CLOSE THE CONNECTION.
S - STATUS OF CONNECTION.
0 - SEND A NULL.
ESCAPE-CHAR - TRANSMIT THE ESCAPE CHARACTER.
DIRECTORY
The DIRECTORY command will return a directory of the the
specified files. The format is:
KERMIT-65>DIRECTORY [file-specification]
For example:
DIRECTORY Directory of all files on drive 0
DIRECTORY ker* Directory of files KER*
DIRECTORY k?w Files 3 chars long, beg w/K, end w/W
You may pause the directory display by typing a space and con-
tinue it by typing any character.
DISK
The DISK command will allow you to send commands directly to
the disk drive controller. An empty command field will return
the error status of the disk drive, if any.
KERMIT-65>DISK [string]
For example:
DISK S0:K* -- delete K* on drive 0:
DISK I0 -- initialize BAM on drive 0:
DISK -- print error status, if any
EXIT
The EXIT command will cause Kermit to return to BASIC command
level. This command is the same as the QUIT command. An example
Page 8 C64 KERMIT User Guide
of this command is:
KERMIT-65>EXIT
FINISH
This command will cause Kermit-65 to tell a server Kermit at
the other end of the connection to exit from Kermit. When
Kermit-65 receives the acknowledgement that this is being done,
Kermit-65 will prompt for another command.
KERMIT-65>FINISH
GET
This command can only be used in 'user' mode. It will cause
Kermit-65 to request that the other Kermit (which must be run-
ning in server mode) transmit the specifed file to Kermit-65.
KERMIT-65>GET file-specification
Where "file-specification" is a valid file specification for
the system on which the other Kermit is running.
QUIT
This command will cause Kermit-65 to return to BASIC command
level. This is the same as the EXIT command.
KERMIT-65>QUIT
RECEIVE
The RECEIVE command is used to put Kermit-65 into remote mode
waiting for a single file transfer transaction. If no file
specification is given, Kermit-65 will wait for a file transfer
initialization sequence from the other Kermit. If a file
specification is given, that file specification will be used to
store the received file(s), regardless of what name is supplied
by the other Kermit.
KERMIT-65>RECEIVE
or
KERMIT-65>RECEIVE file-specification
Where "file-specification" is any valid CBM DOS file specifica-
tion.
Running KERMIT Page 9
RESTORE
The RESTORE command is used to restore kermit parameters that
have been previously saved with the SAVE command. Kermit will
search the disk for a file name KERMIT.INI. If the file is
present on disk, Kermit will load in the parameters contained
therein and restart itself with those parameters.
KERMIT-65>RESTORE
SAVE
The SAVE command will save the current Kermit settings and
parameters in a file called KERMIT.INI . The parameters may
later be restored with the RESTORE command.
KERMIT-65>SAVE
SEND
The SEND command will allow you to send a file to the other
Kermit. The command format is:
KERMIT-65>SEND file-specification
Where "file-specification" is any normal CBM DOS file
specification.
SET
The SET command is used to set various parameters in Kermit.
The format of the command is:
KERMIT-65>SET <option> <suboption> ...
The options available to SET are:
BAUD DEBUGGING EIGHT-BIT-QUOTING
ESCAPE FILE-BYTE-SIZE FILE-TYPE
FILE-WARNING FLOW-CONTROL IBM
LOCAL-ECHO PARITY RECEIVE
RS232-REGISTERS SCREEN-WIDTH SEND
VT52-EMULATION WORD-SIZE
A description of the options and suboptions follows.
SET BAUD
The SET BAUD command is used to set the speed at which com-
munications will take place.
Page 10 C64 KERMIT User Guide
KERMIT-65>SET BAUD value
Where value is from the following table:
50 75
110 150
300 1200
1800 2400
SET DEBUGGING
The SET DEBUGGING command is used to set the debug type out on
the user's terminal.
KERMIT-65>SET DEBUGGING keyword
Where keyword is either OFF, TERSE, or VERBOSE. OFF causes all
debugging output to be suppressed. TERSE directs a copy of
each packet to the screen printing any control characters as
'^char'. VERBOSE prints identifying text for each field in the
header and prints the actual data section of the packet in the
same manner TERSE uses.
SET EIGHT-BIT-QUOTING
This command will turn on or turn off the eight-bit-quoting
feature. If set ON, it forces Kermit-65 to use
eight-bit-quoting which may be handy if it must receive a text
file in which some or all of the characters are not in CBM AS-
CII.
KERMIT-65>SET EIGHT-BIT-QUOTING keyword
Where keyword is ON or OFF.
SET ESCAPE
This command will set the escape character for the CONNECT
processing. The command will take the hex value of the charac-
ter to use as the escape character. This is the character
which is used to "escape" back to KERMIT-65 after using the
CONNECT command. It defaults to ^Y (hex 19). It is usually a
good idea to set this character to something which is not used
(or at least not used very much) on the system to which
KERMIT-65 is CONNECTing.
KERMIT-65>SET ESCAPE hex-character-value
Running KERMIT Page 11
Where hex-character-value is the ASCII value of the character
to use as the escape character (in hex).
SET FILE-BYTE-SIZE
This command sets the byte size KERMIT-65 will use for files
being received or transmitted. SEVEN-BIT bytes should be used
for ASCII text files which are to be used as text files on the
CBM DOS system. EIGHT-BIT bytes should be used for binary files
being transferred to and from the C64. This allows the file to
be returned without any changes.
KERMIT-65>SET FILE-BYTE-SIZE size
Where size is SEVEN-BIT or EIGHT-BIT.
SET FILE-TYPE This command tells Kermit-65 what type of file is being sent or
received. It is important that this parameter is set correctly
since it is used to determine the exact file length when send-
ing files in addition to determining special processing which
may have to be done (i.e. When receiving a text file, write
all characters in CBM ASCII.). The format of this command is:
KERMIT-65>SET FILE-TYPE type
Where type is ASCII, BINARY, PETASCI or SCRIPT. BINARY is a
core image (and is normally transferred in eight-bit mode). AS-
CII is any file of ASCII text. PETASCI is a CBM ASCII file.
SCRIPT is a file produced by the SPEEDSCRIPT wordprocessor,
which was published in the Gazzette! Magazine.
SET FILE-WARNING
This command determines what KERMIT-65 will do when it receives
a file with a file name that already exists. If FILE-WARNING
is turned ON, KERMIT-65 will not supersede the old file. In-
stead it will create a file with the original file name plus a
'.0' appended to it. It will increment the 'version' number
until it succeeds in creating a unique file name. If
FILE-WARNING is turned OFF (the default), Kermit-65 will super-
sede the old file.
KERMIT-65>SET FILE-WARNING keyword
Where keyword is either ON or OFF.
SET FLOW-CONTROL
The SET FLOW-CONTROL command will enable the selection of
Page 12 C64 KERMIT User Guide
XON/XOFF flow control if desired. This option is recommended
set for communication speeds of 1200 baud or higher.
KERMIT-65>SET FLOW-CONTROL keyword
Where keyword is either ON or OFF.
SET IBM
The SET IBM command allows KERMIT-65 to be put into a mode
which will allow transfers to an IBM host. This causes
KERMIT-65 to wait for the IBM turnaround character (XON,
CTRL-Q) before sending any characters to the other Kermit. It
also forces the parity type to be mark, the word length to be
seven-bit, turns on local echo for the CONNECT command and
turns off flow-control.
KERMIT-65>SET IBM keyword
Where keyword is either ON or OFF.
SET LOCAL-ECHO The SET LOCAL-ECHO command specifies whether characters should
be echoed locally when CONNECTing to another system. If
LOCAL-ECHO is set to ON, any character typed on the terminal
will be echoed immediately to the terminal, as well as being
sent to the other system. If LOCAL-ECHO is set to OFF (the
default), the characters typed on the terminal are only sent to
the other system (which would normally be echoing the
characters).
KERMIT-65>SET LOCAL-ECHO keyword
Where keyword is either ON or OFF.
SET PARITY
This command determines the type of parity to use on the trans-
mission line. Kermit normally uses characters which consist of
eight data bits with no parity bit. For systems or transmis-
sion media which require a specific parity type, Kermit can
send characters as seven data bits plus a parity bit.
KERMIT-65>SET PARITY keyword
Where keyword is one of:
Running KERMIT Page 13
1. NONE (default) - eight data bits and no parity bit.
2. MARK - seven data bits with the parity bit set to
one.
3. SPACE - seven data bits with the parity bit set to
zero.
4. EVEN - seven data bits with the parity bit set to
make the overall parity even.
5. ODD - seven data bits with the parity bit set to
make the overall parity odd.
SET RECEIVE
It is possible to set various parameters associated with the
receiving of the data from the remote Kermit. SET RECEIVE will
enable you to set the various receive parameters.
KERMIT-65>SET RECEIVE <suboption>
The suboptions of this SET command are:
EIGHT-BIT-QUOTE-CHAR END-OF-LINE PACKET-LENGTH
PAD-CHAR PADDING QUOTE-CHAR
TIMEOUT
SET RECEIVE EIGHT-BIT-QUOTE-CHAR
This command sets the character to be used (when necessary) to
quote characters which have the eighth bit (parity bit) set.
This is used to transfer eight-bit bytes on a transmission
medium which only supports seven data bits. The default value
is 26 (ASCII "&"). Eight-bit-quoting will only be used if both
Kermit's can handle it, and the tranmission medium does not
transmit 8 data bits (as indicated by the SET PARITY command).
KERMIT-65>SET RECEIVE EIGHT-BIT-QUOTE-CHAR nn
Where nn is the ASCII value of the character (in hex) to use
for quoting characters which have the eighth bit set.
SET RECEIVE END-OF-LINE
This will set the end of line character that KERMIT-65 expects
to receive from the remote Kermit. This is the character which
terminates a packet. The default value is 0F (ASCII CR,
CTRL-M).
Page 14 C64 KERMIT User Guide
KERMIT-65>SET RECEIVE END-OF-LINE nn
Where nn is the ASCII value of the character to use for the end
of line character (in hex).
SET RECEIVE PACKET-LENGTH
This will set the receive packet length. The value for this
parameter must be between 10 and 96. Packet lengths outside of
this range are illegal. The default value is 5E (94 decimal).
KERMIT-65>SET RECEIVE PACKET-LENGTH nn
SET RECEIVE PAD-CHAR
This parameter is the padding character that is expected from
the remote Kermit. The parameter must be a hex number in the
range of 0 to 1F or 7F. All other values are illegal. The
default value is 0 (an ASCII NUL).
KERMIT-65>SET RECEIVE PAD-CHAR nn
Where nn is the ASCII value of the character to be used as a
pad character (in hex).
SET RECEIVE PADDING
This command will set the number of padding characters that
will be expected from the other Kermit. The default value is
0.
KERMIT-65>SET RECEIVE PADDING nn
Where nn is the hex number of padding characters to use.
SET RECEIVE QUOTE-CHAR
This will set the quoting character that KERMIT-65 will expect
on incoming messages. This is the character used to quote con-
trol characters. The default value is 23 (ASCII "#").
KERMIT-65>SET RECEIVE QUOTE-CHAR nn
Where nn is the ASCII value of the quoting character (in hex).
SET RECEIVE TIMEOUT
This will set the number of seconds that Kermit will wait for
acknowledgement before it will retry sding or receiving the
Running KERMIT Page 15
current packet (during a RECEIVE or GET). The default value is
15 seconds.
KERMIT-65>SET RECEIVE TIMEOUT nn
Where nn is the number of seconds to wait for a message from
the remote kermit (in hex).
SET RS232-REGISTERS
This sets the 2 registers for controlling the baud rate, parity
etc. The 2 registers are treated as a 16 bit hex integer. The
first 2 digits are the SECOND register and the last 2 digits
are the FIRST register. If only 2 digits are entered, the
second register is cleared. Examples:
KERMIT-65>SET RS232-REGISTERS 0006 (or SET RS 06) sets the
registers to 06,00 for 300 baud, 8 bit, no parity (this is the
default)
KERMIT-65>SET RS232-REGISTERS A026 sets the registers to 26,A0
for 300 baud, 7 bit, parity mark.
See the C64 reference manual for a complete description of all
the bits in the 2 registers.
SET SCREEN-WIDTH
This option will let you choose the working screen width for
Kermit. 40 columns is the default, but many mainframes will
operate better with an 80 column screen width. The 80 column
option requires no extra hardware. The 80 column screen is im-
plemented using a hires bit mapped screen and can be viewed on
any TV or monitor. Choosing this option will restart Kermit in
the selected mode (all options set up to this point will remain
intact).
KERMIT-65>SET SCREEN-WIDTH keyword
Where keyword is either 40-COLUMNS or 80-COLUMNS
SET SEND
It is possible to set various parameters associated with the
sending of data to the remote Kermit. SET SEND will enable you
to set the various SEND parameters. These parameters should
not normally be set since, as part of the transfer initializa-
tion process, the two Kermits exchange their RECEIVE
parameters. The capability of setting these parameters is
provided so that the transfer initialization can be completed
Page 16 C64 KERMIT User Guide
even if the default parameters are not correct.
KERMIT-65>SET SEND <suboption>
The suboptions of this SET command are:
EIGHT-BIT-QUOTE-CHAR END-OF-LINE PACKET-LENGTH
PAD-CHAR PADDING QUOTE-CHAR
TIMEOUT
SET SEND EIGHT-BIT-QUOTE-CHAR
This command sets the character to be used (when necessary) to
quote characters which have the eighth bit (parity bit) set.
This is used to transfer eight-bit bytes on a transmission
medium which only supports seven data bits. The default value
is 26 (ASCII "&"). Eight-bit-quoting will only be used if both
Kermit's can handle it, and the tranmission medium does not
transmit 8 data bits (as indicated by the SET PARITY command).
KERMIT-65>SET SEND EIGHT-BIT-QUOTE-CHAR nn
Where nn is the ASCII value of the character (in hex) to use
for quoting characters which have the eighth bit set.
SET SEND END-OF-LINE
This will set the end of line character that KERMIT-65 will
send to the remote Kermit. This is the character which ter-
minates a packet. The default value is 0F (ASCII CR, CTRL-M).
KERMIT-65>SET SEND END-OF-LINE nn
Where nn is the ASCII value of the character to use for the end
of line character (in hex).
SET SEND PACKET-LENGTH
This will set the send packet length. The value for this
parameter must be between 10 and 96. Packet lengths outside of
this range are illegal. The default value is 5E (94 decimal).
KERMIT-65>SET SEND PACKET-LENGTH nn
SET SEND PAD-CHAR
This parameter is the padding character that is sent to the
remote Kermit. The parameter must be an hex number in the
range of 0 to 1F or 7F. All other values are illegal. The
Running KERMIT Page 17
default value is 0 (an ASCII NUL).
KERMIT-65>SET SEND PAD-CHAR nn
Where nn is the ASCII value of the character to be used as a
pad character (in hex).
SET SEND PADDING
This command will set the number of padding characters that
will be sent to the other Kermit. The default value is 0.
KERMIT-65>SET SEND PADDING nn
Where nn is the hex number of padding characters to use.
SET SEND QUOTE-CHAR
This will set the quoting character that KERMIT-65 will send in
outgoing messages. This is the character used to quote control
characters. The default value is 23 (ASCII "#").
KERMIT-65>SET SEND QUOTE-CHAR nn
Where nn is the ASCII value of the quoting character (in hex).
SET SEND TIMEOUT
Set the time in seconds that Kermit will wait for an ack-
nowledgement before it will retry sending or receiving the cur-
rent packet (during a SEND). The default value is 15 seconds.
KERMIT-65>SET SEND TIMEOUT nn
Where nn is the number of seconds to wait for a message from
the remote kermit (in hex).
SET VT52-EMULATION
This switch determines whether or not Kermit-65 will act like a
VT52 when it is CONNECTed to a remote Kermit. The possible
values for the switch are ON and OFF. The default is ON.
KERMIT-65>SET VT52-EMULATION OFF
SET WORD-SIZE
This option will set the word length for communication.
Page 18 C64 KERMIT User Guide
KERMIT-65>SET WORD-SIZE size
Where size is either SEVEN-BIT or EIGHT-BIT
SHOW
The SHOW command will allow you to show the various parameters
that are set with the SET command.
KERMIT-65>SHOW <option> <suboption>...
The options available to SHOW are:
ALL BAUD DEBUGGING
EIGHT-BIT-QUOTING ESCAPE FILE-BYTE-SIZE
FILE-TYPE FILE-WARNING FLOW-CONTROL
IBM LOCAL-ECHO PARITY
RECEIVE RS232-REGISTERS SEND
VT52-EMULATION WORD-SIZE
A description of the options and suboptions follows.
SHOW ALL
The SHOW ALL command will cause all of the parameters to be
listed.
SHOW BAUD
Shows the current Baud rate.
SHOW DEBUGGING
Display whether debugging is off, in terse mode, or in verbose
mode.
SHOW EIGHT-BIT-QUOTING
Shows whether or not Kermit-65 is using eight-bit-quoting on
file transfers.
SHOW ESCAPE
This will display the character being used to escape from a
connection to a remote Kermit.
SHOW FILE-BYTE-SIZE
This command shows whether Kermit is treating seven bits or all
eight bits as significant when writing to a file.
SHOW FILE-TYPE
Shows what type of file Kermit-65 is reading or writing.
SHOW FILE-WARNING
Shows whether or not Kermit-65 will check if a file exists on
Running KERMIT Page 19
receive, and try to modify the name used for the file if it
does.
SHOW FLOW-CONTROL
Shows whether or not Kermit-65 is using XON/XOFF flow control
for communication.
SHOW IBM
Shows whether or not Kermit-65 is being used to talk to an IBM
mainframe.
SHOW LOCAL-ECHO Shows whether or not Kermit-65 will print a copy of characters
on the screen which are typed by the user and sent to the
mainframe during connect processing.
SHOW PARITY
Shows the type of parity being used by Kermit-65 in order to
talk to the other Kermit.
SHOW RECEIVE
Shows the setting of a particular receive packet parameter. The
suboptions available are:
EIGHT-BIT-QUOTE-CHAR END-OF-LINE PACKET-LENGTH
PAD-CHAR PADDING QUOTE-CHAR
TIMEOUT
These are analogous to the SET RECEIVE options given
above.
SHOW RS232-REGISTERS
Shows the value of the 2 RS232 registers as a single 16 bit hex
value.
SHOW SEND
Shows the setting of a particular send packet parameter. The
suboptions available are:
EIGHT-BIT-QUOTE-CHAR END-OF-LINE PACKET-LENGTH
PAD-CHAR PADDING QUOTE-CHAR
TIMEOUT
These are analogous to the SET SEND options given
above.
SHOW VT52-EMULATION
Shows whether or not Kermit-65 is acting like a VT52 when talk-
ing to another Kermit during connect processing.
SHOW WORD-SIZE Shows the current word-length for communication.
STATUS
Page 20 C64 KERMIT User Guide
The current status of Kermit-65 will be displayed. This in-
cludes the number of characters that have been sent and
received from the remote Kermit. Also included is the amount
of characters which were actual data and the overhead for both
send and receive.
3.3. INIT Files
C64 KERMIT-65 has the ability to load preset parameters from disk automatically
upon startup. When Kermit is first started, it will search the disk for a file
called 'KERMIT.INI'. This file must contain Kermit parameters in a special for-
mat and order. Such a file is provided in the distribution. Kermit will load
these parameters into memory and use them untill they are changed by the user.
The init file provided with the distribution has the following defaults set:
Debugging Is TERSE
Vt52 Emulation Is ON
Ibm-Mode Is OFF
Local-Echo Is OFF
Baud-Rate Is 1200
Parity Is None
Word-Size Is EIGHT-BIT
Flow-Control Is ON
Eight-Bit-Quoting Is OFF
File-Warning Is ON
Escape Character Is ^y
File-Type Mode Is ASCII
File-Byte-Size Is SEVEN-BIT
RS232 Registers = $0000
Receive
Padding Character Is ^@
Amount Of Padding Is 00
Eight-Bit-Quoting Char Is &
End-Of-Line Character Is ^m
Packet-Length Is 5d
Quote Character Is #
Timeout Character Is 04
Send
Padding Character Is ^@
Amount Of Padding Is 00
Eight-Bit-Quoting Char Is &
End-Of-Line Character Is ^m
Packet-Length Is 5d
Quote Character Is #
Timeout Character Is 04
KERMIT-65 SYSTEM INSTALLATION GUIDE Page 21
4. KERMIT-65 SYSTEM INSTALLATION GUIDE
4.1. THE FILES
The following files should be supplied on the distribution tape:
- C64BOOT.BAS - Initial bootstrap program to load C64KER.HEX
- C64BOOT.C - C program at mainframe to talk to C64BOOT.BAS
- C64BOOT.FOR - FORTRAN program at mainframe to talk to C64BOOT.BAS
- C64DXL.BAS - Hex disk file loader in BASIC
- C64DXL.HEX - Assembled version of Disk Hex load program
- C64DXL.M65 - Source of program to load KERMIT-65 from C64 diskette
- C64KER.BIN - Assembled version of KERMIT-65 (Eight-bit Binary Object
code)
- C64KER.HEX - Assembled version of KERMIT-65
- C64KER.INI - Init file for KERMIT-65
- C64KER.M65 - CROSS assembler source for KERMIT-65
- CROSS.MAC - CROSS Microprocessor Assembler (Source)
- CROSS.EXE - CROSS Microprocessor Assembler (Object)
4.2. Building KERMIT-65
.R CROSS<cr> ! Run CROSS Microprocessor Assembler
*C64KER.HEX/PTP:KIM=C64KER.M65/M65 ! Generate .HEX file
This command will produce an ASCII HEX file which can be downline loaded onto
the C64 using C64BOOT. If a listing is desired, one can be produced by adding
",C64KER.LST" after the "/PTP:KIM" in the command line to CROSS. Note that
CROSS tends to pad its' output files with NULLS. You may want to strip them
with the editor of your choice to cut down the files' size (which will also cut
down on the time recquired to transmit the file).
Page 22 C64 KERMIT User Guide
4.3. General Procedures and Conventions
Before working with KERMIT on the C64 do the following:
1. Make sure all equipment is turned off.
2. Remove all cartridges from your C64 computer.
3. Turn on your disk drive and monitor.
4. Turn on your C64 computer.
5. Turn on your printer.
6. Insert your working disk into the disk drive.
7. Follow the procedures outlined below to bring up KERMIT.
4.4. Loading an assembled file
The procedure to bootstrap an assembled KERMIT object file from a mainframe to
the C64 is as follows:
1) On the C64, Load and run SUPERMON machine language monitor or equivalent.
Preferably should be in address $C800-$CFFF.
2) Type in the BASIC program C64BOOT.BAS on the C64. This is a simple file
transfer protocol for receiving '.HEX' files. It is recommended that the user
save this program as it may be needed to bootstrap newer versions of KERMIT, or
C64DXL in the future.
3) Run C64BOOT.BAS on the C64. The procedure is:
LOAD"C64BOOT.BAS",8
RUN<cr>
NOW IN DUMB TERMINAL MODE. PRESS F1 KEY
TO BEGIN RECEIVING FILE. (MAKE SURE THAT
HOST IS SET FOR HALF-DUPLEX.)
4) Call and login to the mainframe on which KERMIT-65 resides.
5) Compile and execute C64BOOT.FOR. This will be used along with C64BOOT.BAS on
the C64 to load C64DXL.HEX AND C64KER.HEX. Once C64BOOT is executing on the
mainframe, give control back to the C64.
6) First download C64DXL.HEX
<F1>
LOCAL FILENAME? C64DXL.HEX
KERMIT-65 SYSTEM INSTALLATION GUIDE Page 23
C64BOOT will display status messages about what it is receiving on the screen
as well as saving the data on disk.
7) Then download C64KER.HEX
<F1>
LOCAL FILENAME? C64KER.HEX
C64BOOT will display status messages about what it is receiving on the screen
as well as saving the data on disk. WARNING: This file will take lots of space
(about 205 sectors), so make sure the disk is reasonably empty.
8) Then download C64KER.INI
<F1>
LOCAL FILENAME? C64KER.INI
9) Logout (if you wish) and exit C64BOOT.BAS
10) Type in and save C64DXL.BAS. Run C64DXL.BAS
LOAD"C64DXL.BAS",8
RUN<cr>
Name Of File? C64DXL.HEX<cr>
C64DXL will display what it is loading into memory.
11) Save C64DXL. Type the following: (if you haven't already, load Supermon at
C7ED)
SYS 51181 (to enter Supermon)
.S "C64DXL.C000",08,C000,C2EE<cr>
12) Start executing C64DXL.
LOAD "C64DXL.C000",8,1<cr>
SYS 49152<cr>
Hex Object File Loader
Object File Name? C64KER.HEX <cr>
C64DXL will display what it is loading into memory.
13) When done, enter SUPERMON and save the file:
.S "KERMIT",08,0801,xxxx+1<cr>
Where xxxx is the last address diplayed by C64DXL
The new version of Kermit is now on disk.
Page 24 C64 KERMIT User Guide
4.5. Loading a new version of KERMIT-65
Once KERMIT-65 is on the users system, it can be used to load new versions of
KERMIT-65. There are two ways of doing this. One will work in any enviroment
where the initial bootstrap procedure works, since it depends only on the
capability of transferring text files. The other method depends upon the
capability of being able to obtain and transfer a binary file.
4.6. Loading from a .HEX file
1) Use Kermit to transfer C64DXL over to your C64 (If you already have C64DXL,
skip to step 4). C64DXL is a disk hex loader that will take CROSS format .HEX
files on your C64 and load them into memory:
LOAD"KERMIT",8<cr>
RUN<cr>
(Do your mainframe Kermit setup here)
KERMIT-65>GET C64DXL.HEX<cr> (or RECEIVE C64DXL.HEX)
2) Type in and save C64DXL.BAS. Run C64DXL.BAS
LOAD"C64DXL.BAS",8
RUN<cr>
Name Of File? C64DXL.HEX<cr>
C64DXL will display what it is loading into memory.
3) Save C64DXL. Type the following:
SYS 51181 (to enter Supermon)
.S "C64DXL.C000",08,C000,C2EE<cr>
4) Use Kermit-65 to transfer the new version of itself over. Make the C64 file
a Text file. WARNING: This file will take LOTS of space (about 205 sectors), so
make sure the disk is reasonably empty.
5) Start executing C64DXL.
LOAD "C64DXL.C000",8,1<cr>
SYS 49152<cr>
Hex Object File Loader
Object File Name? C64KER.HEX <cr>
C64DXL will display what it is loading into memory.
6) When done, enter SUPERMON and save the file:
.S "KERMIT",08,0801,xxxx+1<cr>
Where xxxx is the last address diplayed by C64DXL
KERMIT-65 SYSTEM INSTALLATION GUIDE Page 25
The new version of Kermit is now on disk.
7) If you don't already have a KERMIT.INI file, you should transfer this file
over from the mainframe. See the section on init files for more information.
4.7. Loading from the binary version
There is yet another way to Bootstrap a new version of KERMIT onto an C64. If
the user has an older version of KERMIT-65 which supports binary mode transfer,
and has access to a machine with a valid copy of C64KER.BIN, they can simply
transfer C64KER.BIN using their version of KERMIT. Be sure to set the
File-byte-size to Eight-bit, and the File-type-mode to Binary before transfer-
ring the file since this is the actual object code. Also be sure that the
sending Kermit is also set for doing a binary transfer. No special loading or
conversion is needed. If no KERMIT.INI file is present, it should also be
transferred to the C64. See the section on init files for more information.
Page 26 C64 KERMIT User Guide
I. Character and Control Code Definitions
I.1. Keyboard Layout
Because of the unusual layout of the C64 keyboard, the desire to support all
ascii characters, and a personal need to find the ESC and DEL keys in their
usual positions, the following key substitutions apply (note- ^x is short- hand
for CONTROL-x):
TO SEND TYPE
------- ----
\ BRITISH-POUND
^\ ^BRITISH-POUND
^_ ^=
^ UP-ARROW
^^ ^UP-ARROW
^[ (ESC) ^[ or LEFT ARROW
_ F1
| F2
` F3
~ F4
: F5
: F6
^H (BS) F7
^T F8
DEL (RUB) Commodore DEL
^J (NL) SHIFT/RETURN or ^J
^S (DC3) ^S or HOME
^Q (DC1) ^Q or CURSOR DOWN
^I (TAB) ^I (ie. No separate TAB key)
Note that if the FLOW-CONTROL option has been set, pressing the COMMODORE key
will place the terminal program in a suspended display mode (ie. the cursor
will freeze at it's current position), and ^S will be sent to the host computer
when the RS-232 input buffer fills up. Similarly, pressing the COMMODORE key
will remove the terminal from the suspended display mode and send a ^Q to the
host computer only if a ^S had previously been sent and the buffer has become
nearly empty. This enables the COMMODORE key to be used like the SCROLL/
NO-SCROLL key on DEC terminals. Suspended display mode is indicated to the
user by the cursor blinking much faster than normal, an indication that the
COMMODORE key must be pressed to resume displaying the received text. The
program may also send ^S and ^Q to the host computer on it's own from time to
time if it detects an impending RS-232 buffer overflow condition - this nor-
mally will only occur while printing a number of short or blank lines while
scrolling the screen up (or down), since 4 to 15 characters are received into
the RS-232 buffer during the time it takes to scroll the whole screen. In any
case, this automatic flow control is fully synchronized with the flow control
necessitated by the use of the COMMODORE key to suspend and resume the display
of received text. Depressing the ^S and ^Q keys (or their substitutes in-
dicated above) unconditionally sends those ASCII characters to the remote host
computer without any local effect.
Character and Control Code Definitions Page 27
This terminal program does `not' support flow control in the opposite direction
- receiving ^S from the host computer will not lock the keyboard or have any
other effect, nor will ^Q.
I.2. GLASS terminal
The GLASS TTY terminal type prints all characters except ASCII 0-31 and ASCII
127. Most control codes are ignored. The following, however, are recognized:
CHARACTER EFFECT
--------- ------
^G (BEL) sounds a beep
^H (BS) cursor backspaces
^I (TAB) cursor moves right to next tab stop
^J (NL) cursor moves down one line with scrolling
^M (CR) cursor moves to start of line
Table I-1: Control Codes For Glass TTY
Tab stops are pre-defined and fixed at every 8 columns beginning with column 0
(ie. 0, 8, 16, 24, ...).
I.3. VT-52 Terminal
The VT-52 terminal prints the same characters as the GLASS TTY. It reacts to
control characters the same as the GLASS, except when ESC (decimal 27) is
received. Kermit will treat the next character received specially; if it isn't
in the following table, KERMIT ignores the character; if it is in the table,
the action is as indicated.
CHARACTER EFFECT
--------- ------
^[A cursor moves up one line
^[B cursor moves down
^[C cursor moves right one char.
^[D cursor moves left one char.
^[H cursor homes
^[I cursor moves up one line with scrolling
^[J clears from cursor to end of screen
^[K clears from cursor to end of line
^[Ylc cursor moves to line l-$20, col c-$20
^[Z sends DEC VT-52 terminal id string
^[n turns off reverse video
^[o turns on reverse video
Table I-2: Escape Sequences for VT-52
Page 28 C64 KERMIT User Guide
VAX UNIX users (Berkeley 4.1bsd) will find that the following "termcap" entries
effectively describe this terminal program for use with the terminal dependent
UNIX programs (eg. vi, emacs, more, rogue, etc.):
qc|c64|C64|Commodore 64:co#40:li#25:\
:up=\EA:do=\EB:cl=\EH\EJ:am:bs:\
:bw:ho=\EH:nd=\EC:so=\Eo:\
:se=\En:cm=\EY%+ %+ :\
:ce=\EK:sr=\EI:pt:
VAX VMS users can probably get away with the following (although some VMS
programs [eg. edt] require an auxilliary keypad, and do not work especially
well in 40 column mode):
set term /dev=vt52
set term /pag=25
set term /wid=40
TOPS-20 users can run "emacs" and the like after the following:
term vt52
term length 25
term width 40
term pause com
C64BOOT.BAS - BOOTSTRAP PROGRAM FOR C64DXL Page 29
II. C64BOOT.BAS - BOOTSTRAP PROGRAM FOR C64DXL
Here is the download program for the C64. Note that the RS-232
channel open statement in line 10 may need to be modified for the
particular host.
The mainframe host should have a C64BOOT program to accompany this
one which runs on the C64. C64BOOT is currently written in CLU,
and is available in executable form for TOPS-20 and 4.2 UNIX
systems.
To download a file, load and run this program on the Commodore 64.
Use the dumb terminal mode to log in to the remote host. Set the
remote host for half duplex communication (this prevents the remote
host from echoing the acknowledgements it receives back to the C64).
Then run the download program on the remote host, including the name
of the file you wish to download to the C64 on the command line.
For example, to download the file foo, you would type C64BOOT FOO
=============================================================================
1 REM FILE CAPTURE PROGRAM; ROBERT LENOIL, AUTHOR.
2 REM WRITTEN DECEMBER 1984. CLEANED UP FOR GENERAL PUBLIC FEBRUARY 1985.
5 PRINT "[CLEAR]NOW IN DUMB TERMINAL MODE. PRESS F1 KEY";
6 PRINT "TO BEGIN RECEIVING FILE. (MAKE SURE THAT";
7 PRINT "HOST IS SET FOR HALF-DUPLEX.) PRESS F7"
8 PRINT "KEY TO EXIT PROGRAM."
9 PRINT "----------------------------------------";
10 OPEN 1,2,0,CHR$(38)+CHR$(161) : OPEN 15,8,15
15 GET A$ : IF A$ = CHR$(133) THEN 20
16 IF A$ = CHR$(136) THEN PRINT "QUITTING" : CLOSE 1 : END
18 PRINTA$; : PRINT#1,A$; : GET#1,A$ : GOSUB 150 : PRINTA$; : GOTO 15
20 F$="" : INPUT "LOCAL FILENAME";F$
23 IF F$="" THEN CLOSE 15 : CLOSE 1 : PRINT "QUITTING" : END
25 OPEN 8,8,8,"0:"+F$+",S,W"
30 GOSUB 60 : IF EN$ > "00" THEN CLOSE 8 : GOTO 20
35 GET#1,A$ : IF A$ > "" GOTO 35
40 GOSUB 45 : GOTO 190
45 PRINT#1,"ok" : RETURN :REM "OK" ON REMOTE HOST
47 PRINT#1,"ng" : RETURN :REM "NG" ON REMOTE HOST
60 INPUT#15,EN$,EM$,ET$,ES$ : IF EN$ > "00" THEN PRINT "[RVS ON]"EN$EM$ET$ES$
61 RETURN
150 REM CONVERT ASCII TO PETASCII
155 A = ASC(A$+CHR$(0)) : IF A > 64 AND A < 91 THEN A = A + 128
160 IF A > 96 AND A < 123 THEN A = A - 32
165 IF A=127 THEN A=20
170 A$=CHR$(A) :RETURN
190 L$="" : CK=0
195 GET#1,A$ : IF A$="" THEN 195
197 IF A$=CHR$(13) THEN 200
198 CK = CK + ASC(A$) : L$ = L$ +A$ : PRINT A$; : GOTO 195
200 PRINT : CK$=""
Page 30 C64 KERMIT User Guide
202 GET#1,A$ : IF A$="" THEN 202
203 IF A$ <> CHR$(13) THEN CK$ = CK$ + A$ : GOTO 202
205 IF CK = ABS(VAL(CK$)) THEN 210
207 PRINT "[RVS ON]CHECKSUM ERROR - SENDING NACK" : GOSUB 47 : GOTO 190
210 PRINT#8,L$ : GOSUB 60 : IF EN$ > "00" THEN STOP :REM (FATAL?) DISK ERROR
215 GOSUB 45 : IF LEFT$(CK$,1) <> "-" THEN 190
220 CLOSE 8 : PRINT F$" DOWNLOADED; RETURNING TO TERMINAL MODE" : GOTO 15
C64BOOT.C - MAINFRAME SIDE OF BOOTSTRAP Page 31
III. C64BOOT.C - MAINFRAME SIDE OF BOOTSTRAP
/* "c64boot.c" initial download program for Unix systems *
* program to download files to C64, modelled on C64BOOT.CLU
* sends lines, one at a time, each followed by a checksum.
* the C64 validates cksum and returns "OK" or "NG".
* last line cksum sent with leading "-" to signify eof.
* Although written on a Unix system, the C code contains
* no kernal calls and should be fairly portable.
* Written by: Alastair Mayer, U. of Guelph, 2-Apr-85
* ( acdmayer@uoguelph.bitnet )
*/
#include <stdio.h>
#define BUFFMAX 256
#define EOS '\0'
main(argc,argv)
int argc;
char *argv[];
:
char received[BUFFMAX],
line[BUFFMAX];
char *c;
int checksum = 0;
int eof = 0;
FILE *fd;
if (argc>1)
fd = fopen(argv[1],"r");
if (fd == NULL) :
fprintf(stderr,"%s: can't open '%s'\n",argv[0],argv[1]);
exit(-1);
:
while (strcmp(received,"OK"))
scanf("%[?\n]%*c",received);
/* wait for starting "OK" */
while ( (! eof) || (strcmp(received,"NG")==0)) :
if (strcmp(received,"OK")==0) :
line[0] = EOS; /* clear it first */
eof = (fscanf(fd,"%[?\n]%*c",line) < 0);
:
checksum = 0;
for (c=line; *c ; c++) :
putchar(*c);
checksum += *c;
:
putchar('\n');
if (eof) putchar('-');
checksum &= 0177;thw9759@ultb.UUCP (T.H. White) (08/15/89)
I recently got kermit version 2.1 up on my c64 and it seems to be functional except that I cannot get it to talk correctly with the host. I have tried to connect to two different ULTRIX systems, SUN systems, and a VAX/VMS system. None seem to work right. Thhe host seems to get everything that I type but I don't get everything from the host and often don't see what I type. I have messed around with every parameter that there is and nothing works. Is there something there that I am not aware of? I have a vt52 emulator and magic term, VIP term, all seem to talk to these hosts great. Help please. Tim
ray@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Ray Moody) (08/29/89)
In article <1149@ultb.UUCP>, thw9759@ultb (T.H. White) writes: >I recently got kermit version 2.1 up on my c64 and it seems to be functional >except that I cannot get it to talk correctly with the host. >Is there something there that I am not aware of? I have a vt52 emulator >and magic term, VIP term, all seem to talk to these hosts great. Help please. Kermit does parity checking and most other terminal programs do not. If Kermit does not work for you, but other terminal programs often do, you probably have a parity problem. If Kermit receives a character with bad parity, you will be beeped at and the character will not be displayed. (Are you being beeped at?) Remember that if you set parity to none, you should set word-size to eight, otherwise, you should set word-size to seven. Many other terminal programs will not support non-standard word-sizes so this parameter is often overlooked. Ray