seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) (10/09/89)
In article <89100603481468@masnet.uucp> iain.bennett@canremote.uucp (IAIN BENNETT) writes: >I'm here again to clear things /up again! > >The 64 wwas not designed to be used with a hard drive~x_S. It never >even was intended for the 1581, but the '81 was made...shows how >brainy_ commoxDore is! True, the 64 was not designed to be used with a hard drive; but then neither was it designed to address more than 64K of RAM, use any of the faster IEEE peripherals, drive MIDI synthesizers or burn eproms.. yet it does all of these things and countless more. When the 64 was conceived, even "real" personal computers rarely had hard drives. I think the 64 can make good use of a hard disk, even if it was interfaced through the serial port. As for the 1581 disk drive, I own two of them.. both happily plugged into my 64. >sorry for the line noise. > >Now for hard drives. the 64 is too slow in my opinion1yG. Also adding >an IBM hard drive, you would have to fooormat in special ways. Do you >unxBerstand what I'm getting at? A hard disk is a peripheral, to be used by the computer... not the other way around. So WHAT if the disk drive is capable of delivering data at 4 or 8 times the bus speed of my Commodore 64? This is immaterial. Even clone computers do not speak directly to their hard drives. They use controller cards, buffers, caches.. all the things found (in a *much* tinier form :-) inside the 1541. What I propose is taking some of that existing 8-bit IBM-PC technology and putting it to work -- cheap -- for the 64. "Formatting" is not the issue. I don't expect to be able to boot Disk Doctor, nor do I need Fastload to work. As far as low-level formatting goes, we can always format the beastie on an IBM, then unship it for use in the 64 system. Various possibilities include: 1. Interface an XT 8-bit hard disk controller to the user port. 2. Build a cable from the CBM serial [pseudo-IEEE] port to the COM1 port on an IBM-XT clone. Have the "big" computer pretend to be a 1541, and simulate Commodore DOS. Set up sub-directories on the hard drive for Pac-Man and Paperclip64. (Eventually get the 8088/1541-emulation software down to a TSR, so you can run it as a background task all the time.) 3. Canibalize a 64; turn it into a dedicated hard drive controller. (Why not? 8-bit user port, 64K ram, 6502-ish processor.. should make a dandy controller. Write the DOS in BASIC!) Interface the modified C64 to another C64 via their CBM serial ports. 4. Modify a 1764 REU cartridge so that some of the external memory is shared by the hard disk controller. Copy data into the shared memory, swap it into the 64's memory map at blinding speed. While I applaud the Total Concept embraced by the Xetec hard drive systems, I cringe at their prices. I don't NEED 100% compatibility or blinding speed... I have my 1541 for the former, and an REU for the latter. > %dE > > * QNet 1.04a1: MCS BBS, Milton, On., Canada, (416)878-5935 (19200 HST) David -- David Paulsen ..uunet!nuchat!seven ||| The Curiosity Shop BBS, 713/488-7836 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The spirit is free / Where the wild things roam Next to the sea / The electric ocean [The Cult]
ewm@cbnews.ATT.COM (edward.w.mcfarland) (10/10/89)
In article <15457@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: >I think the 64 can make good use of a hard disk, even if it was >interfaced through the serial port. >Even clone computers do not speak directly to their hard drives. They >use controller cards, buffers, caches.. all the things found (in a *much* ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >tinier form :-) inside the 1541. What I propose is taking some of that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >existing 8-bit IBM-PC technology and putting it to work -- cheap -- for >the 64. "Formatting" is not the issue. I don't expect to be able to >boot Disk Doctor, nor do I need Fastload to work. As far as low-level >formatting goes, we can always format the beastie on an IBM, then >unship it for use in the 64 system. >Various possibilities include: (4 possibilities deleted) >While I applaud the Total Concept embraced by the Xetec hard drive >systems, I cringe at their prices. I don't NEED 100% compatibility >or blinding speed... I have my 1541 for the former, and an REU for >the latter. My feelings as well. >David Paulsen ..uunet!nuchat!seven ||| The Curiosity Shop BBS, 713/488-7836 I am fairly ignorant at the nuts and bolts level of the hardware but, what about cannibalizing a 1541 drive to use as a controller for commonly available pc harddrives? What would be involved in hacking an interface board together so one could substitute a hard drive in place of the floppy drive? Is this harder to do than it seems? I wouldn't mind cannibalizing my 1541 to gain a hard drive. (it would be the incentive I need to get a 1571 or 81) What about cannibalizing a 1581? Is the hardware there any more conducive? I'd bet this could be done for less than the $700+ that Xetec charges. How about it you hardware types, is this possible/worthwhile? ----------------------------------------- Ed McFarland ewm@mvusa.att.com | -----------------------------------------
seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) (10/11/89)
In article <10046@cbnews.ATT.COM> ewm@cbnews.ATT.COM (edward.w.mcfarland,54723,mv,30-2 W3,508 960 6202) writes: >In article <15457@nuchat.UUCP> seven@nuchat.UUCP (David Paulsen) writes: > >>I think the 64 can make good use of a hard disk, even if it was >>interfaced through the serial port. > >...what about cannibalizing a 1541 drive to use as a controller for commonly >available pc harddrives? What would be involved in hacking an interface board >together so one could substitute a hard drive in place of the floppy drive? >Is this harder to do than it seems? I wouldn't mind cannibalizing my 1541 >to gain a hard drive. Neither would I. But alas.. I'm not a hardware type, but I don't think it's possible to swap out the floppy drive for a hard drive and make it work. Even radical rewriting of the 1541 operating system wouldn't provide the hard drive with the signals it needs. However, perhaps the 1541's RAM could be patched into.. an external hard disk would read/write sectors to the 1541's buffers directly, for transmission over the CBM serial bus. By sending a special "read hard disk buffer" (U5: ?) command you could access data the same way you would by direct-disk access on a 1541. To make things easier, an additional 3K of ram -- 3072 bytes -- can be added to the 1541 memory map to allow for extra buffers and programming space. (This I read in the _Transactor_ a couple of years ago.. anyone try it?) While I think this could work, and in fact I'm all for a 1541/20MB hard drive combo, I'm still partial to the 1764 REU modification scheme.. programming on the 64 side would be soooo much easier. Not to mention the near-instantaneous speed that could be attained. >What about cannibalizing a 1581? Is the hardware there any more conducive? >I'd bet this could be done for less than the $700+ that Xetec charges. The same basic impediments exist for the 1581.. perhaps more, since there are dozens of books that address 1541 hacking and almost nothing for the 1581. In any case, I KNOW we can beat the $700+ barrier using baling wire and coat hangars. And now, I zip off on a tangent... Re: external hard drives in general Why so expensive? I always bought the party line, that the external power supply, case and controller card drove the price up.. but recently I've been reading the _Computer Shopper_ and noting the prices I see.. at the mail-order level everything appears to be available for dirt cheap. Power supplies for $29. External hard drive cases, $49. Controllers (IBM-XT compatible): $69. Rebuilt 5MB Tandon harddrive, $75. We're talking under $225 in parts.. and I'm randomly thumbing thru this magazine, typing the first prices I see! I realize this is hardly a realistic approach, but as an experiment it's illuminating; if you assume the (conservative) price of $700 for the Xetec unit, that's a 315% markup. Quite the racket, wouldn't you say? I also realize that the Xetec drive systems represent "years of research", and address the average Commodore owner's desires: fast loads, ease of use, compatibility. But the price is clearly too high.. or else we'd ALL have the damn things sitting next to our 1541s! Where's the "Xetec Bare Bones 1000, the Hard Drive For The Rest Of Us" ..retail $399? Am I totally naive here? >----------------------------------------- > Ed McFarland ewm@mvusa.att.com | >----------------------------------------- David -- David Paulsen ..uunet!nuchat!seven ||| The Curiosity Shop BBS, 713/488-7836 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The spirit is free / Where the wild things roam Next to the sea / The electric ocean [The Cult]