cn0h+@andrew.cmu.edu.UUCP (09/25/87)
I've been playing with a 1581 drive for a few months, and I love it. Here are some interesting things I have discovered: 1) 1581 burst speed is about 8 times 1541 speed, and 1571 burst speed is about 6 times 1541 speed (for loading only). For file load, it is surprisingly easy to program with a C128. 2) The 1581 seems not to need "Inquire disk" before a burst access. "Inquire disk" is absolutely necessary (except when just turned on) with a 1571 disk drive - it seems to use a hardware flag which can only be set by "Inquire disk". ***3) Strange chunks of data have been chopped off the end of large files I have saved on the 1581 drive. Has anyone else had a problem with this? It seems to chop off around line 370 on my wordprocessor (370x80 bytes) - is this a <<major>> bug? 4) If anyone wants to make a 1581 read Amiga disks (which should be easy) be sure to worry about the hash directories & file data hunks (which are a pain in the neck!) 5) The subdirectories are wonderful - if anyone is interested in an automated BASIC program to create a subdirectory givin the desired size, let me know. Chris Newman
fred@cbmvax.UUCP (10/01/87)
> 2) The 1581 seems not to need "Inquire disk" before a burst access. "Inquire > disk" is absolutely necessary (except when just turned on) with a 1571 disk > drive - it seems to use a hardware flag which can only be set by "Inquire > disk". This is due to a 1571 disk being either GCR or MFM encoded. Since the 1581 is strictly MFM it is superfluous. > ***3) Strange chunks of data have been chopped off the end of large files I > have saved on the 1581 drive. Has anyone else had a problem with this? It > seems to chop off around line 370 on my wordprocessor (370x80 bytes) - is > this a <<major>> bug? This is not typical- but similar problems have been reported by a few folks. So far, nothing can be duplicated here- I've even had units sent to me along with demo programs only to have no problems while in my warm, comforting hands. I assume by now everyone knows to turn ON or disconnect the serial cable from peripherals- this can cause things like you report. What word processor were you using, and is this the only place you have a problem? Have you access to a friend's (or maybe a dealer's) 1581 and/or C128 to experiment? I can use all the info you can offer- help me help you. -- -- Fred Bowen uucp: {ihnp4|rutgers|caip}!cbmvax!fred arpa: beats me tele: 215 431-9100 Commodore Electronics, Ltd., 1200 Wilson Drive, West Chester, PA, 19380
rw2w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Robert William Weiman) (09/22/90)
Does anyone know if there is a program (or even if it is possible...) to either read 720K MSDOS format disks in this drive - or to read/write 1581 disks in a standard pc-clone drive (720K or 1.44M). thanks bob =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |Internet: | I've come to know the color of indecisiveness. | | rw2w@andrew.cmu.edu | So tell me what I'm feeling, | |BITnet: rw2w@cmuccvma | In seven words or less. | |UUCP: Who knows?? | - King's X | -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
manen@nvpna1.prl.philips.nl (Rob van Manen) (09/27/90)
In <kayZVPy00WBLA2Vkxa@andrew.cmu.edu> rw2w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Robert William Weiman) writes: >Does anyone know if there is a program (or even if it is possible...) >to either read 720K MSDOS format disks in this drive - or to read/write >1581 disks in a standard pc-clone drive (720K or 1.44M). >thanks >bob >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >|Internet: | I've come to know the color of indecisiveness. | >| rw2w@andrew.cmu.edu | So tell me what I'm feeling, | >|BITnet: rw2w@cmuccvma | In seven words or less. | >|UUCP: Who knows?? | - King's X | >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- My father and I also wondered if the floppies created by the Cbm1581 were readable/writeable by another computer. The other computer I am talking about is an AtariST. What happened is that I wrote a program in C to read and write Cbm1581 floppies on my Atari. Also a few simple commands were added to list BASIC files, and to draw pictures on my monochrome screen. Another thing I wanted was a port to MSDOS. I have tried this. Problems arose: what to do when you get errors like: 'Address mark not found', 'Sector not found', etc.? I know that it is possible to read the disks on a PC/XT and a PC/AT, because I have a program called anadisk which reads them happily, although it reports that some strange things occur on the disk. So what I need is a routine to read floppies, a routine to write floppies, and a routine to format floppies. I need routines that you can give a physical sectornumber and a physical tracknumber, because the disklayout is different from MSDOS. If someone could provide me with source for this in C, or perhaps assembler which can be fitted in TurboC for the PC, then I could successfully port my program to MSDOS. In the meantime here is a (very) short description of what the program can do on my AtariST at this moment. Rob van Manen. | email - manen@apolloway.prl.philips.nl or | manen%nvpna1.prl.philips.nl@uunet.uu.nl | SERI - manen:nlwaya01 or MANEN:NVPNASA ================================================================================ Commands: bye, cat, cd, cls, dcp, draw, dump, exit, format, get, help, kick, list, ls, mark, mon, new, put, pwd, rm, quit, ?. bye : stop the program (exit, quit). cat : type a file -u: type untranslated. cd : change directory. cls : clear the screen. dcp : copy a 2 sided, 80 track, 10 512 bytes-sector (Cbm1581)disk -f: first format the destination disk. draw: show 1..4 picture(s) on the screen -c: draw compressed picture -e: draw normal pictures enlarged to a full screen -l: draw large ega pictures 1..4 dump: dump the contents of a file -a: dump in ascii -h: dump in hex -l: show the file link pointers -s: show load adress. format: format disk in drive A. Create a useable disk with new. get : copy a Cbm1581 file to an Atari file (untranslated). help: show this list (?). kick: make sure the disk cache is reread. list: list c64 basic files. ls : show disk directory -l: show long directory. mark: create a marker-line in the directory. mon : start the diskmonitor. new : init the directory structure, thus erasing all the files. put : copy files from Atari to Cbm1581 disk. pwd : print working directory. rm : remove files from a Cbm1581 disk. ================================================================================ Rob van Manen. | email - manen@apolloway.prl.philips.nl or | manen%nvpna1.prl.philips.nl@uunet.uu.nl | SERI - manen:nlwaya01 or MANEN:NVPNASA
rharrie@ac.dal.ca (09/28/90)
In article <kayZVPy00WBLA2Vkxa@andrew.cmu.edu>, rw2w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Robert William Weiman) writes: > Does anyone know if there is a program (or even if it is possible...) > to either read 720K MSDOS format disks in this drive - or to read/write > 1581 disks in a standard pc-clone drive (720K or 1.44M). > > thanks > bob There is a program called Big Blue Reader, which does exactly this if you have a 1571 disk drive (ie. reads/writes 360K PC disks). I am not sure if this works on the 1581, or if there is a separate version for that drive. Robert. *Email - in%"rharrie@ac.dal.ca"
yorkw@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Willis F York) (09/28/90)
rharrie@ac.dal.ca writes: >> to either read 720K MSDOS format disks in this drive - or to read/write >> 1581 disks in a standard pc-clone drive (720K or 1.44M). On a Diffrent Note, (kinda Diff but related to this) I have an AMIGA and just got a Nifty Program A64 and ya got it it's a PD (well Not PD but kinda) Program that Emulates a C64, the neat thing is i can use my 880k amiga Floppies as Drives for it. it i can set device 8 to be my Ram: drive then a load"*",8,1 would load the First file offa my RAM: drive, (Hopefully trhis is a 64 prog... :^} ) Thing is i WANT to run GEOS, and geos uses FAST disk type Routines. and it is KEY disk protected..... so 1) How do i deprotect GEOS? (to install it on my AMIGA floppie) 2) Any way to disable the Fast Drive Rpoutines? IS Geos Dieing out? It was The neatest thing i'd seen for the 64 for a Long time, and i heard that Qlink was going to support AMIGA stuff. Is it? (never heard anything about it.) Thanx. . -- yorkw@stable.ecn.purdue.edu Willis F York ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This Space For Rent....
mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel) (10/02/90)
In article <2025@ac.dal.ca> rharrie@ac.dal.ca writes: >In article <kayZVPy00WBLA2Vkxa@andrew.cmu.edu>, rw2w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Robert William Weiman) writes: >> Does anyone know if there is a program (or even if it is possible...) >> to either read 720K MSDOS format disks in this drive - or to read/write >> 1581 disks in a standard pc-clone drive (720K or 1.44M). > >There is a program called Big Blue Reader, which does exactly this if you have >a 1571 disk drive (ie. reads/writes 360K PC disks). I am not sure if this >works on the 1581, or if there is a separate version for that drive. As I understand the matter, Big Blue Reader and Run Magazine's IBM format disk package both work with either the 1571 or the 1581. The reason that you can't read/write IBM disks with a 1541 (and conversely that it works with both 1571's and 1581's) is that IBM uses a file storage scheme alien to the 1541 (but which has been built in to the other two drives along with the usual Commodore formats). Marc R. Roussel mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca
scott@max.u.washington.edu (10/02/90)
In article <1990Oct1.222319.23869@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel) writes: > As I understand the matter, Big Blue Reader and Run Magazine's IBM > format disk package both work with either the 1571 or the 1581. This is correct. Big Blue Reader comes in both C64 and C128 versions. > The reason that you can't read/write IBM disks with a 1541 (and conversely > that it works with both 1571's and 1581's) is that IBM uses a file > storage scheme alien to the 1541 (but which has been built in to the > other two drives along with the usual Commodore formats). I think it has to do more with the fact that the 1541 has only one read/write head, and so it can read/write one side of the disk at a time. > > Marc R. Roussel > mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca Sincerely, Scott K. Stephen
anderson@npdiss1.StPaul.NCR.COM (Joel Peter Anderson) (10/02/90)
In article <yorkw.654533840@stable.ecn.purdue.edu> yorkw@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Willis F York) writes: >rharrie@ac.dal.ca writes: > >>> to either read 720K MSDOS format disks in this drive - or to read/write >>> 1581 disks in a standard pc-clone drive (720K or 1.44M). > >On a Diffrent Note, (kinda Diff but related to this) > >I have an AMIGA and just got a Nifty Program A64 and ya got it it's a >PD (well Not PD but kinda) Program that Emulates a C64, the neat thing is i can use my 880k amiga Floppies as Drives for it. > >it i can set device 8 to be my Ram: drive then a > >load"*",8,1 would load the First file offa my RAM: drive, >(Hopefully trhis is a 64 prog... :^} ) Well, I have a64 also, and have found that whenever you use Amiga hardware as a drive (RAM, or real drives) commands that assume the normal intelligent 1541 (loading "$", or wildcard matches "?","*") fail with an error related to trying 1541 commands on Amiga hardware. >Thing is i WANT to run GEOS, and geos uses FAST disk type Routines. >and it is KEY disk protected..... Sorry, this probably won't work. Geos relies heavily on interaction between the 64 and the intelligent drive. Even if you load Geos (I can do that - too hard to explain) the system immediately needs to do tricky things with the drive - no 'real' drive, no Geos. Using ReadySofts 64 Emulator on the Amiga, I CAN load and run Geos 1.3 (But not 2.0); however this only works with a real 1541 drive, and it is very slow. The only possibility fo A64 (I think) is sending in the shareware fee and getting the cable for the real 1541 drive - but don't count on it. (on the other hand it would be REAL NICE to give this guy some money - I think the A64 is an excellent product. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We know only the strong will survive, But the meek will inherit. So if you've got a coat of arms, oh friend, I suggest we wear it." John Mellencamp. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- joel.anderson@StPaul.NCR.COM |WELL: jpa@well.sf.ca.us Joel Peter Anderson |GEnie: J.ANDERSON71 (I think) NCR Comten / Software engineer |PNET: jpa@pnet51.cts.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------
treesh@bach.helios.nd.edu (10/03/90)
From what I know, the 1571 has MFM coding for use in CPM mode, but this allows it to be able to read and write MS DOS disks with fancy software. The 1541 (besides beig single sided) only supports GCR encoding with no way to work with MFM disks. Im not sure if the 1581 supports MFM or not, but it proabaly does. ctfm
hh2x@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (10/03/90)
In article <1990Oct1.222319.23869@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel) writes: > In article <2025@ac.dal.ca> rharrie@ac.dal.ca writes: >>In article <kayZVPy00WBLA2Vkxa@andrew.cmu.edu>, rw2w+@andrew.cmu.edu > (Robert William Weiman) writes: >>> Does anyone know if there is a program (or even if it is possible...) >>> to either read 720K MSDOS format disks in this drive - or to read/write >>> 1581 disks in a standard pc-clone drive (720K or 1.44M). >> >>There is a program called Big Blue Reader, which does exactly this if you have >>a 1571 disk drive (ie. reads/writes 360K PC disks). I am not sure if this >>works on the 1581, or if there is a separate version for that drive. > > As I understand the matter, Big Blue Reader and Run Magazine's IBM > format disk package both work with either the 1571 or the 1581. The > reason that you can't read/write IBM disks with a 1541 (and conversely > that it works with both 1571's and 1581's) is that IBM uses a file > storage scheme alien to the 1541 (but which has been built in to the > other two drives along with the usual Commodore formats). > > Marc R. Roussel > mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca Another interesting tidbit: The 1571 is perfectly capable of formatting MS-DOS disks. The 81 can read MS-DOS disks but for some reason it can't format them. Anybody know why? Aaron Peromsik (DANISH)
randy@athena.mit.edu (Randall W Winchester) (10/03/90)
In article <459@news.nd.edu> treesh@bach.helios.nd.edu writes: >From what I know, the 1571 has MFM coding for use in CPM mode, but this >allows it to be able to read and write MS DOS disks with fancy software. >The 1541 (besides beig single sided) only supports GCR encoding with no way >to work with MFM disks. Im not sure if the 1581 supports MFM or not, but >it proabaly does. > >ctfm The 1581 supports only MFM. It uses MFM for all disk formats including 1581 "native" mode. It is possible to format 720K MS-DOS disks on the 1581. SOGWAP Software, makers of Big Blue Reader, freely distributed a 1581 MS-DOS format utility as a companion to Big Blue Reader. I think it's called MSFORMAT81.ARC. It might be on QLink. ****************************************************************************** * Randy Winchester * randy@mit.edu * PO Box 1074, Cambridge, MA 02142 * ******************************************************************************
reynolds@felix.UUCP (David Lee Reynolds) (10/05/90)
In article <14378.2707ee38@max.u.washington.edu> scott@max.u.washington.edu writes: >In article <1990Oct1.222319.23869@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel) writes: >> The reason that you can't read/write IBM disks with a 1541 (and conversely >> that it works with both 1571's and 1581's) is that IBM uses a file >> storage scheme alien to the 1541 (but which has been built in to the >> other two drives along with the usual Commodore formats). When I worked for a company called A.D.C. (Applied Data Communications), it was one of mu duties to test the "High-Speed" disk copiers. We supported ALL formats. You could take a data disk from the Commode to say an IBM, or an apple data disk to commode. The trick in reading a C-64 "1541" disk on your IBM is, your IBM (DOS) program must be told to ignore the "Index Pulse" (from the disk drive), because the 1541 HAS NO WAY OF KNOWING WHERE THE INDEX HOLE IS! (Which by the way is also true of Apple disks too). Commodore never installed the Index opto's, though they did include the cutouts in the drive design. That is why the speed of the 1541's motor is very important, because it depends on that time constant to format the disk... >I think it has to do more with the fact that the 1541 has only one >read/write head, and so it can read/write one side of the disk at a time. Old (I mean real old) IBM's had single sided drives, and as far as I know the subsequent versions of IBM DOS still support reading of said disks. (Humm, a concept that Commodore should learn, can you say down-ward compatibility??? Sure I new you could)... >> Marc R. Roussel >> mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca > >Sincerely, >Scott K. Stephen *************************************************************************** * FileNet has no official opinion toward Disks! | Birds of a feather, * *--------------------------------------------------| flock together, over * * 1 message in rec.birds is worth 200 in rec.pets! | MY just-washed car! * *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* * Please give full direct return paths in any correspondence, Felix does * * not support back-bone addresses... Thank you... David Lee Reynolds * * (oliveb,hplabs,spsd,legs,zardoz,sco,tgate,ccicpg,dhw68k)!felix!reynolds * ***************************************************************************
d89-zke@alv.nada.kth.se (Zoltan Kelemen) (10/10/90)
The problem reading 64 disks on an IBM are that they use different formats for storing data. IBM uses MFM, Commodore GCR. Because the most of the work reading a disk on a PC is done by hardware, there is no way for a piece of software on a PC to read a GCR disk without extra hardware.
JLB119@psuvm.psu.edu (10/13/90)
However, there are many programs out which will fully convert CBM disks into MS-DOS disks. I have one that's in BASIC! Everyone has to remember that it only works wth the 1571 or 1581. I know a lot of dummies who have tried to convert a SS CBM disk to DS IBM. ** Crash! ** And to whomever I'm replying to, you must also note that the 1571 and 1581 are fully capable of reading and writing MFM disks -- it even says to on the boxes -- with certain software! Standard CBM DOS is GCR, true, but MFM is by no means out of the limits of the 1571 or 1581. John L. Berger The Pennsylvania State University (PSUVM)