petrino@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (07/24/90)
In article <5227@uwm.edu>, jgreco@archimedes.math.uwm.edu (Joe Greco) writes: > > The question, if I recall, was if we felt it was responsible for the > "decline" of the 64. Actually no, at least not in whole. The question was also asking whether we felt piracy was wrong, plain & simple. Your reply was "yes" piracy is plainly & simply wrong, my reply was "no" IMHO piracy, although illegal, is okay. > Your argument here suggests that it indeed is not, for > if most PC owners use pirated software, you must recognize that the PC is > one of the most popular machines around. I'd suggest that pirating hasn't > hurt IBM popularity at all.... as a matter of fact, might enhance it. :-) Agreed, although my argument was directed towards the moral question of piracy, as opposed to the effect it has/had on the C64, I do indeed agree that piracy hasn't had much of an impact on the hardware sales of the c64. It's dying because it's a dinosaur, but hey, I like dinosaurs :) > I would, however, not consider piracy to be acceptable. It is merely a fact > of life. I am a software author, so I do have some interest in legality and > morality. Perhaps more relevant to the original question, I believe piracy > can do a very good job of discouraging software authors from writing > software for a machine. Some of my experiences with LEGITIMATE owners of my > products were bad enough to make my toes curl up. I finally got exasperated > with the pirates and put a backdoor into my BBS, distributed it, and waited > until it was sufficiently pirated. Then I went around about 2am one > morning and formatted lots of disk drives. I admit, it was petty. But also > satisfying. <delete-to-end> Sounds interesting! (being a sysop myself) I'd like to hear more about this "Revenge of the Sysop" extravaganza. (E-mail me!) I do sympathize with your plight. But, I don't feel the Software industry has been crippled by pirates, and, since no machine/system is completely secure, I haven't seen many professional software creators giving up the biz' because there are too many pirates out there. This is not to be misconstrued as a justification/rationalization for software piracy! Illegal is illegal. Like exceeding the speed limit though, we all decide which laws we will abide by and to what extent. BTW...I'm a programmer also, but for slightly bigger machines :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- \ / Jack Petrino (DRAGON) int: PETRINO@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU |\^--^/| Systems Testing bit: PETRINO@UKANVAX < O O > University of Kansas vox: (913)864-0443 \/ \/ Computer Center fax: (913)864-0485 / oo \ \ .. / "Rock U Like a HURRICANE" (CBR1000F) -----------------------------------------------------------------------
jgreco@archimedes.math.uwm.edu (Joe Greco) (08/07/90)
In comp.sys.cbm article <25021.26ac30bf@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, petrino@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
:In article <5227@uwm.edu>, jgreco@archimedes.math.uwm.edu (Joe Greco) writes:
:> The question, if I recall, was if we felt it was responsible for the
:> "decline" of the 64.
:Actually no, at least not in whole. The question was also asking
:whether we felt piracy was wrong, plain & simple. Your reply was
:"yes" piracy is plainly & simply wrong, my reply was "no" IMHO
:piracy, although illegal, is okay.
Then why is it illegal in the first place? It would seem to me that the law
is basically the common will of the people - it would make no sense to have
a law that the people did not want.
:> Your argument here suggests that it indeed is not, for
:> if most PC owners use pirated software, you must recognize that the PC is
:> one of the most popular machines around. I'd suggest that pirating hasn't
:> hurt IBM popularity at all.... as a matter of fact, might enhance it. :-)
:Agreed, although my argument was directed towards the moral question of
:piracy, as opposed to the effect it has/had on the C64, I do indeed
:agree that piracy hasn't had much of an impact on the hardware sales
:of the c64. It's dying because it's a dinosaur, but hey, I like dinosaurs :)
Someone tell our CS department that VAXen are dinosaurs.
Morally, you're Xeroxing something someone is trying to sell for a living.
With a Xerox machine at least someone (the copy shop) makes a couple of
bucks. Piracy eliminates even that (not that I'm advocating Xerox copies of
copyrighted material). Morally, by my standards, piracy is repugnant.
:> I would, however, not consider piracy to be acceptable. It is merely a fact
:> of life. I am a software author, so I do have some interest in legality and
:> morality. Perhaps more relevant to the original question, I believe piracy
:> can do a very good job of discouraging software authors from writing
:> software for a machine. Some of my experiences with LEGITIMATE owners of my
:> products were bad enough to make my toes curl up. I finally got exasperated
:> with the pirates and put a backdoor into my BBS, distributed it, and waited
:> until it was sufficiently pirated. Then I went around about 2am one
:> morning and formatted lots of disk drives. I admit, it was petty. But also
:> satisfying. <delete-to-end>
:
:Sounds interesting! (being a sysop myself) I'd like to hear more about
:this "Revenge of the Sysop" extravaganza. (E-mail me!)
It was really simple. I issued serial numbers to everyone. Quietly. I
also added some code to perform a CRC and checksum on the system code as it
was booted up. This effectively prevented anyone from tampering with the
code, since there was a check from a protected sector on the disk that the
codes were the same. This in itself was very satisfying as some of the
little pigs had been going in with Disk Doctor and adding cutesie things on
my (C) messages. 99% of the text seen by users was SysOp-redefinable, and
the pigs went after the (C) messages (the other 1%).
Now came the interesting part. There was a third part to the CRC and
checksum which was a number issued in a random, nonrepeating method for every
compile and every serial number. I maintained a list of
CRC/checksum/identity numbers. The system would provide, given a three
control code sequence, the identity and serial numbers of the program. This
knowledge in itself was useless: the serial number is well-known, and the
identity number is meaningless except to me. However, I could then look up
the CRC and checksums, and use a wierd formula to derive a number based on
the serial, CRC, and checksums. This number was the backdoor. It was
assured to be sufficiently large that it would be difficult to guess at it
(two sixteen bit CRC/checksums tend to do that :-) ... if this number was
received by the BBS, it began by overwriting all it's data tables, followed
immediately by all of track 18. Then it sent a format command to the disk,
and popped a cutesie message up on the screen. <*lock.*>
It's of course not totally secure. Nothing ever is. But it blew some
people right out of the water. It was also very satisfying. If you had the
backdoor calculated, you could blow up a system in under 10 seconds.
I also never had to do it again. Nobody really messed with my software.
On the other hand, I still support the sites that run it.
:I do sympathize with your plight. But, I don't feel the Software
:industry has been crippled by pirates, and, since no machine/system
:is completely secure, I haven't seen many professional software creators
:giving up the biz' because there are too many pirates out there.
:This is not to be misconstrued as a justification/rationalization
:for software piracy! Illegal is illegal.
You sound wishy-washy on this point...?
Besides, you need to remember that not everyone is a professional. I do
this as a hobby. I *enjoy* it. I'd also like to make a couple bucks and I
don't think asking $5 of people to use a piece of sophisticated software is
too much.
:Like exceeding the speed limit though, we all decide which laws we will
:abide by and to what extent.
Same here. I don't read software licenses that tell me that I can only have
three copies of a program total. I'll happily keep my installation floppy,
my copy on my hard disk, and a year's worth of tape backups (52 copies). On
the other hand, I would not use more than one copy at a time. (Joe's Moral
and Ethical version of the Copyright Law).
:BTW...I'm a programmer also, but for slightly bigger machines :)
Define slightly bigger. A VAX-8650 running VMS?
Sorry, I just had to. ;-)
:----------------------------------------------------------------------
:\ / Jack Petrino (DRAGON) int: PETRINO@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU
:|\^--^/| Systems Testing bit: PETRINO@UKANVAX
:< O O > University of Kansas vox: (913)864-0443
: \/ \/ Computer Center fax: (913)864-0485
: / oo \
: \ .. / "Rock U Like a HURRICANE" (CBR1000F)
:-----------------------------------------------------------------------
... Joe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Greco - University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee - Department of Mathematics
jgreco@archimedes.math.uwm.edu USnail: Joe Greco
Voice: 414/321-6184 9905 W. Montana Ave.
Data: 414/321-9287 (Happy Hacker's BBS) West Allis, WI 53227-3329
#include <witty_and_humorous_saying.h>
Disclaimer: I don't speak for the Math Department, the University, or myself.petrino@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (08/07/90)
In article <5598@uwm.edu>, jgreco@archimedes.math.uwm.edu (Joe Greco) writes: > In comp.sys.cbm article <25021.26ac30bf@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, petrino@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote: > :> The question, if I recall, was if we felt it was responsible for the > :> "decline" of the 64. > :Actually no, at least not in whole. The question was also asking > :whether we felt piracy was wrong, plain & simple. Your reply was > :"yes" piracy is plainly & simply wrong, my reply was "no" IMHO > :piracy, although illegal, is okay. > > Then why is it illegal in the first place? It would seem to me that the law > is basically the common will of the people - it would make no sense to have > a law that the people did not want. Not all laws make sense, and not all laws make sense to all people. Laws, in THEORY stem from the common will of the people. In practice, though, they stem from the will of a select group of people. > :I do sympathize with your plight. But, I don't feel the Software > :industry has been crippled by pirates, and, since no machine/system > :is completely secure, I haven't seen many professional software creators > :giving up the biz' because there are too many pirates out there. > :This is not to be misconstrued as a justification/rationalization > :for software piracy! Illegal is illegal. > > You sound wishy-washy on this point...? Not at all, Piracy is illegal. But, you have "Joes Code" & I have "Jacks Code". Jacks code says piracy is ok, illegal <> don't do. Just don't cry if you get caught. (like with speeding/illegal parking etc.) > :BTW...I'm a programmer also, but for slightly bigger machines :) > > Define slightly bigger. A VAX-8650 running VMS? > > Sorry, I just had to. ;-) Yes, very soon to be a VAX 9000. (controllers already in place, actual unit will be here in less than 2 weeks) We also have an Amdahl 5890-300e running VM/XA 2.0, MVS/XA 2.2.3,& MVS/SP 1.3.5. and an IBM 3081 KX3 running VM/XA 2.0 & VM/SP5. [Though I don't claim them as my own :)] Do you have an 8650 there? What version of VMS are they running? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- \ / Jack Petrino (DRAGON) int: PETRINO@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU |\^--^/| Systems Testing bit: PETRINO@UKANVAX < O O > University of Kansas vox: (913)864-0443 \/ \/ Computer Center fax: (913)864-0485 / oo \ \ .. / "Rock U Like a HURRICANE" (CBR1000F) -----------------------------------------------------------------------
jgreco@archimedes.math.uwm.edu (Joe Greco) (08/09/90)
In comp.sys.cbm article <25190.26bea204@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, petrino@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote: :> Then why is it illegal in the first place? It would seem to me that the law :> is basically the common will of the people - it would make no sense to have :> a law that the people did not want. : : Not all laws make sense, and not all laws make sense to all people. : Laws, in THEORY stem from the common will of the people. In practice, : though, they stem from the will of a select group of people. You have yet to explain to me how this makes piracy ethically and morally "the right thing to do"? :> :I do sympathize with your plight. But, I don't feel the Software :> :industry has been crippled by pirates, and, since no machine/system :> :is completely secure, I haven't seen many professional software creators :> :giving up the biz' because there are too many pirates out there. :> :This is not to be misconstrued as a justification/rationalization :> :for software piracy! Illegal is illegal. :> :> You sound wishy-washy on this point...? : : Not at all, Piracy is illegal. But, you have "Joes Code" & I have :"Jacks Code". Jacks code says piracy is ok, illegal <> don't do. Just :don't cry if you get caught. (like with speeding/illegal parking etc.) Which of course is a point that we will probably never agree on. :> :BTW...I'm a programmer also, but for slightly bigger machines :) :> :> Define slightly bigger. A VAX-8650 running VMS? :> :> Sorry, I just had to. ;-) : : Yes, very soon to be a VAX 9000. (controllers already in place, : actual unit will be here in less than 2 weeks) : We also have an Amdahl 5890-300e running VM/XA 2.0, MVS/XA 2.2.3,& : MVS/SP 1.3.5. and an IBM 3081 KX3 running VM/XA 2.0 & VM/SP5. : [Though I don't claim them as my own :)] Sorry, I'm disillusioned about VAXen. I don't like them. Perhaps if UWM had a decent VAX, I'd think otherwise. : Do you have an 8650 there? What version of VMS are they running? No. Top VAX we got is an 11/780 (ich, pooh, don't say it). And we're mainly a UNIX site. There's an old Sperry and I believe a MicroVAX running VMS somewhere around here, but everything else is UNIX. Lately our computing services dept has purchased a Convex C220... and math dept now has an IBM RS/6000. We'll never make everyone happy, it seems. :-( ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee - Department of Mathematics jgreco@archimedes.math.uwm.edu USnail: Joe Greco Voice: 414/321-6184 9905 W. Montana Ave. Data: 414/321-9287 (Happy Hacker's BBS) West Allis, WI 53227-3329 #include <witty_and_humorous_saying.h> Disclaimer: I don't speak for the Math Department, the University, or myself.
50723995@ucs.uwplatt.edu (Bill Zwicky) (11/19/90)
Has anyone gotten files from the Mars BBS? (either by modem directly, or by FTP from dsun.ee.msstate.edu (for those who didn't know)) There's several programs in there that aren't compressed, but don't work anyway. Does anyone know what's going on, or will I have to get onto Mars and ask there? |) / Bill Zwicky / |/ |)itman / 50723995 @ UWPlatt / o Left-handed widget / 50723995 @ UCS.UWPlatt.EDU / '
huey@athena.mit.edu (Huy Le) (12/01/90)
I'm looking for a decent monitor for my 128D. I use it in 64 mode more often then 128 mode, and I'd prefer to buy a monitor having composite and RGB inputs. Any suggestion what model should I buy for the cheapest price? HL
gathings@duncan.cs.utk.edu (Golando Gathings) (05/06/91)
>Geez. Really... a circuit such as this takes all of about 30 minutes to >think out, design, and _build_ a prototype of. >A SASE and a reasonable copying cost is OK with me. But $5 is definitely >too high to pay someone for making a few Xeroxes and stuffing envolopes. >How much does this guy think his time is worth? > ---Joel Kolstad > kolstad@jomby.cs.wisc.edu >Go ahead. Flame me. Make my day. Glad to be of service. Just an idea I had. If someone thinks that the idea is worth that much, no problem. If I get no responses, I still have nothing to loose. Isn't that the idea behind good business ? besides, check the Commodore mags out and see what you get when it comes down to RS232 interfaces; a box, some instructions to connect it up but no idea on how it works. At least with me you get an explanation , no matter how simple. Contrary to popular belief, this is still America. Nobody seems to complains about H&R Block making money when tax time approaches, in spite of the fact that you can make a toll FREE phone call to certain gov. agencies to get FREE tax info and assistance. So as they say ,let the people decide for themselves, what is best for them . Who knows, you could be surprised. Golando