lipsett@inmet.UUCP (12/09/86)
I have a vanilla 512K Mac and am considering a second disk drive. I would like to get an 800K drive, but have a number of questions that I can't seem to get consistent answers to. Perhaps someone out there can help me. 1. I understand that I can use the 800K drive as an 800K drive if I am running 3.2 and 5.3 with the HD20 file. But can I use the 800K drive as a 400K drive with the old System and Finder files (e.g., as a data disk for existing applications in which I might not want to replace the system software)? 2. Is there a way to format an 800K disk as an MFS disk? If so, how does this relate to the above question with respect to existing applications? Do I still need the HD20 file and the new system software? (BTW, I can't seem to get my 512K to format a single-sided disk as HFS no matter what I try - I have tried holding down the option key and all that - what am I missing?). 3. Have there been any reported problems with 400K disks in 800K drives with respect to heads? What fraction of (good) 400K disks can be formatted double-sided and have them work? 4. What external 800K drives do people recommend? Thanks in advance. e-mail would probably be more appropriate unless you think the answers are of general interest. Roger Lipsett ihnp4!inmet!lipsett mirror!inmet!lipsett
mrh@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU (Marc Hannah) (12/12/86)
In article <127200001@inmet>, lipsett@inmet.UUCP writes: > > 1. I understand that I can use the 800K drive as an 800K drive if I > am running 3.2 and 5.3 with the HD20 file. But can I use the 800K > drive as a 400K drive with the old System and Finder files (e.g., as a > data disk for existing applications in which I might not want to > replace the system software)? An 800K disk drive will work with 400 K disks exactly like the 400K drives if you want it to. If you are worried about compatibility however, you can format an 800K disk as an MFS disk and you will have the extra space in addition to compatibility. > 2. Is there a way to format an 800K disk as an MFS disk? If so, how > does this relate to the above question with respect to existing > applications? Do I still need the HD20 file and the new system > software? (BTW, I can't seem to get my 512K to format a single-sided > disk as HFS no matter what I try - I have tried holding down the > option key and all that - what am I missing?). You can format a 800K disk as an MFS disk if you use version 4.1 of the finder with system 2.0 when you initialize the disk. I'm not sure whether you can do this with the old ROMS however. In order to use the 800K drive with the old roms, you MUST have the HD20 file on the system disk you boot up with. The problem here may be that system 2.0 may not allow you to install HFS in RAM, which is what is happening when you use the HD20 file. It may be that you need the new ROMS with the DS sony driver in order to use the DS drive AND system 2.0 > > Roger Lipsett David Gelphman BITNET address: DAVEG@SLACVM Bin #88 SLAC ARPANET address: DAVEG@SLACVM.BITNET Stanford, Calif. 94305 UUCP address: ...psuvax1!daveg%slacvm.bitnet 415-854-3300 x2538 usual disclaimer #432 applies: my employer apologies for the fact that I have access to this net.
liberte@uiucdcsb.UUCP (12/12/86)
I was daring enough to try using some of my single sided disks as double sided disks. Some could not initialize, but others that did initialize (as double sided) sometimes failed later on. Failures in the directory blocks are bad news. So I thought, still trying to be cheap, what we need is a utility to initialize and test disks AND allocate bad blocks so they will not be used again. You would notate on your disk label that there are bad blocks so that you would not simply reinitialize it. But now the difference in price between single and double sided disks is only about 20 or 30 cents. Still, it would be a useful utility even for fully certified double sided disks since blocks do go bad, and who wants to bother with those lifetime guarentees. Dan LaLiberte liberte@b.cs.uiuc.edu liberte@uiuc.csnet ihnp4!uiucdcs!liberte
spry@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu (12/12/86)
> /* ---------- "512K Mac/800K Drive" ---------- */ > > 2. Is there a way to format an 800K disk as an MFS disk? If so, how > does this relate to the above question with respect to existing > applications? Do I still need the HD20 file and the new system > software? (BTW, I can't seem to get my 512K to format a single-sided > disk as HFS no matter what I try - I have tried holding down the > option key and all that - what am I missing?). > > /* End of text from uiucdcsb:comp.sys.mac */ In partial response to question 2. To get HFS on 400K disks you will need to use the HFS system (System 3.2, and Finder 5.3) and the HD20 file. To get the 400K initialized as an HFS volume you need to hold down the <option> AND <command> keys during the ENTIRE initialization process. That will give you a 400K HFS disk. Also if you want to make an HFS copy of an HFS disk you will need to hold down the <option> and <command> keys during the entire copy operation of the Finder. Basically, if you want a destination disk to be an HFS disk with a 512K Mac, and the above software you will need to hold the <option> and <command> keys during the entire operation. A couple of notes. An HFS disk (of any size) will not be readable by any of your older systems so if you insert it when using an older system (or an HFS system that was booted WITHOUT the HD20 file) you will get an initialize dialog. To avert disaster either make all you systems HFS or be very careful about hitting the OK button on the initialize dialog. If you use a RAMdisk you do not need to copy the HD20 file over to the RAMdisk. The HD20 file is only needed during the initialization process to configure the system as an HFS system. This can save a few K and let you keep the RAM disk as small as possible on your 512K. Finally, don't format your boot disk as an HFS volume. The 64K ROMs don't understand the HFS system until they are patched by the HD20 file. If the startup disk is an HFS disk the old ROMs can't read the disk to run the HD20 file. Hope this helps answer some of your questions. Andy Spry "Master shoehorner of software." ***>>>---------------------------------------------<<<*** ***>>> The stupidest reason for buying an IBM is <<<*** ***>>> because everyone else has one. <<<*** ***>>> Especially if it is the only reason! <<<*** ***>>>---------------------------------------------<<<*** +-----------------------------------------------+ | The above opinion is mine only and subject | | change with the amount of sunshine. | +-----------------------------------------------+ | I can be reached at: | | arpa spry@b.cs.uiuc.edu | | or spry@uiuc.ARPA | | csnet spry@uiuc.csnet | | usenet uiucdcsb!spry | +-----------------------------------------------+
rs4u#@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Richard Siegel) (12/12/86)
[Line-Eater? What Line-Eater? *Chomp* 8-) ]
Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Position: Confused Undergraduate
I've been using a plain-vanilla 512K Macintosh with Apple's 800K disk drive
for a while now; here are some comments and responses:
I have a system disk that has my favorite INIT resources (SortMenu), and the
Hard Disk 20 file on it. I boot with that. In the external drive, I put in an
800K HSF system disk. Depending on what I am doing, it's either my Lightspeed
Pascal development disk, or else it's a disk that has MacWrite, MacDraw, and
full set of fonts and desk accessories, and still plenty of room for
documents. With the 800K disk outboard, I can use the internal drive
(single-sided, of course) as my "Data Disk", where I keep all my documents.
It is possible to format an 800K disk as MFS, but it's not desirable, since
HFS is much nicer. But of course, there are some nonstandard applications
that don't like HFS. So here's how to do it: Prepare a startup disk that has
a System, Finder, and modified Hard Disk 20 file on it. The modified Hard
Disk 20 file is made in the following way:
make a copy of the Hard Disk 20 file.
open it up with ResEdit.
You'll notice that in the file there are three 'PTCH' ("Patch")
resources. Remove ALL of them >>EXCEPT<< the one called '.Sony'. (This is the
driver for the double-sided drive).
Save the file and quit.
Boot with this modified disk.
You've removed that patches that make the system recognize HFS, so when you
format a disk in the 800K drive, it'll be formatted as 800K MFS. Disks
formatted in the single sided drive are 400K MFS.
Notice that if you boot with this disk the Finder won't recognize HFS
floppies at all ("This is not a Macintosh disk").
As I said, format your doublesided disks as HFS, because it's the better way
to go.
Formatting a 400K disk as HFS is a waste of time, in my opinion... Just hold
down the Option key when you choose "Erase Disk", and hold it down until it's
done, and if you're naming a new disk via the Initialize box, hold down the
Option key when you hit Return or press the OK button. But you have to have
the Hard Disk 20 file loaded at bootup.
You must have the new system software to run with the external 800K drive, if
you haven't got the new ROMs. I think. 8-)
There's nothing wrong with using a 400K disk in an 800K drive. What's a
little riskier is using a 400K disk, formatting it on both sides, and then
using it as an 800K disk. I have done it, but you're playing with fire. Spend
the extra money to get doublesided disks. I learned the hard way, when I
started getting random I/O errors. I copied stuff to a new double-sided disk,
and all my problems went away, and have stayed away.
If you insist on using single-sided disks as double-sided disks, DON'T USE
ANYTHING BUT SONY. Anything else is certain trouble.
Hope this helps....
--Richbc@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (bill coderre) (12/13/86)
In article <1034@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU>, mrh@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU (Marc Hannah) writes: > > An 800K disk drive will work with 400 K disks exactly like the 400K > drives if you want it to. If you are worried about compatibility however, > you can format an 800K disk as an MFS disk and you will have the extra > space in addition to compatibility. > Almost, and No. The 800K drive should work exactly the same as the 400K drive on 400K disks, but it sometimes has trouble dealing with them. It might be an alignment problem, but sometimes my old drives read old disks better than my new drives. This should be no problem if you have a friend with an external 400K drive. There is no way that I know of to make an 800K MFS disk. I wanted this to happen pretty badly for a certain application, but NOOOOO. If there is a way, please post it. I'm willing to be proven wrong!....bc
jmm@miro.Berkeley.EDU (James Moore) (12/13/86)
To get a flat 800k disk, just initialize it under an old (pre-HFS) system and finder. James Moore B'fheidir go bhfuil me ag scriobheacht gan ceart agam, go deimhin.
stew@endor.harvard.edu (Stew Rubenstein) (12/14/86)
In article <567@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> bc@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (bill coderre) writes: >There is no way that I know of to make an 800K MFS disk. I wanted this >to happen pretty badly for a certain application, but NOOOOO. This can be done by booting your Mac with system 2.0 and finder 4.1, and then initializing disks in an 800K drive.
bezanson@gumby.WISC.EDU (Brian Bezanson) (12/14/86)
In article <567@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU>, bc@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (bill coderre) writes: > In article <1034@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU>, mrh@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU (Marc Hannah) writes: > > ... If you are worried about compatibility however, > > you can format an 800K disk as an MFS disk and you will have the extra > > space in addition to compatibility. > There is no way that I know of to make an 800K MFS disk. I wanted this > to happen pretty badly for a certain application, but NOOOOO. > If there is a way, please post it. I'm willing to be proven wrong!....bc Well I hope this will help. The MacServe manager has several formatting options for hard disks, floppies, and it's partitions. It allows you to format them as HFS or MFS (regardless of size). When HFS first came out and still was heavily unsupported, I used 800K MFS floppies for a lot of work. Also, Infosphere (MacServe creators) says that the MFS formatter in the manager produces a better/faster format than the standard MFS format produced by the finder. The only question is how to get the formatting program. It probably isn't worth the $150-$200 for MacServe just to format you're disks MFS. You could call infosphere to see about getting the manager program alone, or cheaper/better - find a friend/dealer using MacServe and ask them to make you a 800K MFS floppy. You could save this and use a copy program to make others. Another way (I haven't actually tried this), is to format a standard 800K HFS floppy. Then reboot with an old system/finder (<3.0/5.0). Now reformat you 800K disk under the old MFS system. Hope this helps. [Standard Disclaimer: Just a satisfied MacServe User] -- Brian Bezanson {seismo,ihnp4,allegra,topaz,harvard}!uwvax!gumby!bezanson Manta Software Corp. bezanson@gumby.wisc.edu
liberte@uiucdcsb.cs.uiuc.edu (12/16/86)
Sometimes when I make a 400K disk on my Mac+, which is supposed to be readable by old MFS Macs, the disk is not readable by them. It looks perfectly good to me. Is there something wrong with my head alignment, I mean in my drive? Have others experienced this problem? Perhaps some people have trouble making 800K MFS disks (that are readable by an MFS Mac) for this reason. dan
mrh@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU (Marc Hannah) (12/18/86)
In article <480@gumby.WISC.EDU>, bezanson@gumby.WISC.EDU (Brian Bezanson) writes: > In article <567@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU>, bc@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (bill coderre) writes: > > In article <1034@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU>, mrh@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU (Marc Hannah) writes: > > > ... If you are worried about compatibility however, > > > you can format an 800K disk as an MFS disk and you will have the extra > > > space in addition to compatibility. > > > There is no way that I know of to make an 800K MFS disk. I wanted this > > to happen pretty badly for a certain application, but NOOOOO. > > > If there is a way, please post it. I'm willing to be proven wrong!....bc > > Well I hope this will help. The MacServe manager has several formatting > options for hard disks, floppies, and it's partitions. It allows you >... > Another way (I haven't actually tried this), is to format a standard 800K HFS > floppy. Then reboot with an old system/finder (<3.0/5.0). Now reformat > you 800K disk under the old MFS system. > -- > Brian Bezanson {seismo,ihnp4,allegra,topaz,harvard}!uwvax!gumby!bezanson > Manta Software Corp. bezanson@gumby.wisc.edu I guess I don't understand what the hassle is. I have done the following and it will DEFINATELY work on a Mac which has the new ROMS and the 800K disk drive. Use System 2.0, Finder 4.1 to initialize a NEW (or previously used) disk in the 800K drive. The resulting disk will be an MFS 800K disk. What I don't know and you will have to try is whether this trick will work on a Mac with the old roms. The problem is this...in order to use the 800K drive you need the new Sony driver which is contained in the new ROMS and is in the HD20 file which people with the 64K roms use to run HFS and use the 800K diskdrive. The HD20 file loads the new driver AND HFS if it is on a disk with system >3.0. I don't know what happens if you try to use it with system 2.0. You should just try it. So try this to get an 800K MFS disk if you have the old ROMS: Put system 2.0, Finder 4.1, and the HD20 file (Hard Disk 20 file which you use to startup your system with the 800K external drive) onto a 400K MFS floppy disk. Start up the system with that disk. Initialize a disk in your 800K drive. Is it 800K or 400K or is it usable at all? David Gelphman BITNET address: DAVEG@SLACVM Bin #88 SLAC ARPANET address: DAVEG@SLACVM.BITNET Stanford, Calif. 94305 UUCP address: ...psuvax1!daveg%slacvm.bitnet 415-854-3300 x2538 usual disclaimer #432 applies: my employer apologies for the fact that I have access to this net.