cl1x#@andrew.cmu.edu (Chin-Yo Kenny Lin) (04/25/87)
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A sob story:
I went to my local Apple dealer (on campus) for a drive upgrade on my
512K Mac, originally a 128K modified via 3rd party. The 512K upgrade worked
GREAT! I even had it running a ramdisk for 24 hours at a time without
trouble!
The sad part: the friendly dealer said to me, "Ken, you know, we've
got a problem. Your 512K upgrade was third party. We installed the upgrade
and it works fine. We can even test it out now if you want. But we can't
warranty the upgrade. This is Apple talking here."
So I asked, "no warranty even on the drive itself?"
"Nope." he said.
To make a long story short, it is official Apple policy (I think we
all know by now, although it seems kinda new to me) that once the board has
been touched by non-Apple hands, any Apple upgrades made on it cannot be
guaranteed. The friendly dealer posessed by the demon Apple proceeded to
have me sign the work order saying that I accept that the upgrade is not
under a warranty. Knowing that the warranty period is but a real long 90
days (my 512K upgrade was warranted for 180 days!!!), I proceeded to sign it.
If it dies, it will probably do so after the warranty anyway.
Flame on:
COME ON, WORM (I mean Apple)!! Just where do you get off? If the ROM itself
was defective, it would not be warranted????
And how about the drive??? Just what can the "unoffical" upgrade do to a
drive? The only thing I've seen doing dirty deeds with the drive is SOFTWARE
(all you CMU people know what I'm talking about--A certain software package
used in Intro that eats disks for dessert).
Are you people at WORM (sorry, I'm just not typing well today) trying to suck
up more money from empty college bank accounts all over????
HOWZABOUT YOUR WARRANTY PERIOD?? Huh??? Do you intentionally make it so
short so as to take advantage of people's fears and boost your sale of
WormCare???
Flame off.
I'm still waiting for a 512K==>1Mb Dove upgrade from Programs Plus. I don't
have a HyperDrive to worry about, so I hope it will work out well. As usual,
I will relate any negative or positive experiences to the net.
---Ken
Arpa, Bitnet: cl1x@andrew.cmu.edu
UUCP: {your favorite gateway}!seismo!andrew.cmu.edu!cl1x
DISCLAIMER: If anyone besides Apple (typed it right this time) was insulted,
it was not by intention. myers@uwmacc.UUCP (Jeff Myers) (04/26/87)
> To make a long story short, it is official Apple policy (I think we > all know by now, although it seems kinda new to me) that once the board has > been touched by non-Apple hands, any Apple upgrades made on it cannot be > guaranteed. The friendly dealer posessed by the demon Apple proceeded to > have me sign the work order saying that I accept that the upgrade is not > under a warranty. Knowing that the warranty period is but a real long 90 > days (my 512K upgrade was warranted for 180 days!!!), I proceeded to sign it. > If it dies, it will probably do so after the warranty anyway. This is pretty standard stuff...it's to discourage tinkering and encourage sale of official Apple upgrades. Now with the MacII, upgrades are encouraged because all you have to do is plug things in slots. Should it have been done that way in the first place? Probably, but Apple is moving in the right direction. You might have tried refusing to sign the amendation. You had no legal obligation to sign. Would they have refused to upgrade without the signature? > COME ON, WORM (I mean Apple)!! Just where do you get off? If the ROM itself > was defective, it would not be warranted???? > > And how about the drive??? Just what can the "unoffical" upgrade do to a > drive? The only thing I've seen doing dirty deeds with the drive is SOFTWARE > (all you CMU people know what I'm talking about--A certain software package > used in Intro that eats disks for dessert). First, if something is wrong with the ROMs it will almost always be immediately apparent. Second, most drive problems will be apparent quite early as well. I'm not certain if Apple's remedy limitation would stand up in court if you did not explicitly agree to it, if it could be easily proven that the merchandise was defective. Of course, you would probably need the aid of a law student or better to force your point of view. The Uniform Commercial Code is a wonderful thing... > Are you people at WORM (sorry, I'm just not typing well today) trying to suck > up more money from empty college bank accounts all over???? Um, I for one am quite glad that Apple gives the quite substantial educational discounts that they do -- for instance, an SE here at the UW costs a mere $1700, $1200 off retail. How are the discounts at Carnegie-Mellon? Lighten up and pray that nothing breaks... ;-) > HOWZABOUT YOUR WARRANTY PERIOD?? Huh??? Do you intentionally make it so > short so as to take advantage of people's fears and boost your sale of > WormCare??? Perhaps this is why it is so short, but electronics problems are almost universally going to show up early. The drive is a slightly different story, given Apple's early problems with the 800K drives breaking down, but they again tended to break down fairly early. > I'm still waiting for a 512K==>1Mb Dove upgrade from Programs Plus. I don't > have a HyperDrive to worry about, so I hope it will work out well. As usual, > I will relate any negative or positive experiences to the net. If I were you (which I am in a way, having a 512KE), I'd go immediately for a 2M upgrade with SCSI port thrown in. I'm waiting for a SuperMac Enhance upgrade, which is six weeks overdue. Anyone out there from SuperMac listening? Has production slowed because you were purchased by a bigger corporation? Concentrating on producing MacII products? Cheers, Jeff M.UUCP
cccack@ucdavis.UUCP (David Ackerman) (04/27/87)
*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR...(Sorry, a system error has occurred.) *** > A sob story: > I went to my local Apple dealer (on campus) for a drive upgrade on my > 512K Mac, originally a 128K modified via 3rd party. The 512K upgrade worked > GREAT! I even had it running a ramdisk for 24 hours at a time without > trouble! > The sad part: the friendly dealer said to me, "Ken, you know, we've > got a problem. Your 512K upgrade was third party. We installed the upgrade > and it works fine. We can even test it out now if you want. But we can't > warranty the upgrade. This is Apple talking here." > So I asked, "no warranty even on the drive itself?" > "Nope." he said. > To make a long story short, it is official Apple policy (I think we > all know by now, although it seems kinda new to me) that once the board has > been touched by non-Apple hands, any Apple upgrades made on it cannot be > guaranteed. The friendly dealer posessed by the demon Apple proceeded to > have me sign the work order saying that I accept that the upgrade is not > under a warranty. Knowing that the warranty period is but a real long 90 > days (my 512K upgrade was warranted for 180 days!!!), I proceeded to sign it. > If it dies, it will probably do so after the warranty anyway. > > [flame deleted] > Whether or not this is "official" Apple policy (which I'm not totally sure it is) should not be the issue here. The dealers should still have some responsibility toward their customers, and honor the warranty anyway. I have a MacMemory 2 meg, which I have never had any trouble with. I got my drive/ROM upgrade from Computer Selection in SF, and the they handled the 3rd party problem in this manner: *I* had to unplug and re-install the daughter board (since it covers the ROMs). They refused to touch it. However, they did the remainder of the upgrade procedure, and the part I had to do was simple, and easy to follow from the MacMemory manual. In addition, I did not have to sign anything saying my warranty was void, and had anything happened to either the drive or the ROMs during those first 90 days, I'm sure they would have repaired it. Basically, it just seems that you either need to find an honest, ethical dealer, or force your current dealer to be one whether they like it or not. :-) > ---Ken David Ackerman University of California, Davis ...!{ucbvax,lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!cccack (UUCP) ucdavis!deneb!cccack@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (ARPA) drackerman@ucdavis (BITNET) DIS: is to dat, as disclaimer is to datclaimer.
espen@well.UUCP (Peter Espen) (04/27/87)
In article <MS.V3.18.cl1x.80022e03.dorrance.ibm032.1842.0@andrew.cmu.edu>, cl1x#@andrew.cmu.edu (Chin-Yo Kenny Lin) writes: > > A sob story: > I went to my local Apple dealer (on campus) for a drive upgrade on my > 512K Mac, originally a 128K modified via 3rd party. The 512K upgrade worked > GREAT! I even had it running a ramdisk for 24 hours at a time without > trouble! > The sad part: the friendly dealer said to me, "Ken, you know, we've > got a problem. Your 512K upgrade was third party. We installed the upgrade > and it works fine. We can even test it out now if you want. But we can't > warranty the upgrade. This is Apple talking here." > So I asked, "no warranty even on the drive itself?" > "Nope." he said. > COME ON, WORM (I mean Apple)!! Just where do you get off? If the ROM itself > was defective, it would not be warranted???? > > And how about the drive??? Just what can the "unoffical" upgrade do to a > drive? The only thing I've seen doing dirty deeds with the drive is SOFTWARE > > > Once a non-Apple upgrade or mod is done to your Mac your Apple warranty is voided, that's true. But that doesn't prevent your WIMPY Apple DEALER from covering the 128K ROMS and 800K drive for the 90 day period. If the 128K ROMS or 800K drive did fail within that time frame, all your dealer would need to do is pull out the defective drive and/or 128K ROMS put in a good set and return the defective parts to APPLE for credit. Apple would have no way of knowing what sort of Mac those parts had been in. Sounds to me like you DEALER is using Apple's warranty policy as an excuse to give you the shaft!@ I guess I am just fortunate to have a reasonable, knowledgable dealer here in San Francisco. This is just another example that I've seen on the net recently, of people flaming off at Apple when actually they are getting the run around and the old shaft from their DEALERS!! An Apple dealer and APPLE are NOT one in the same!!
wetter@tybalt.caltech.edu (Pierce T. Wetter) (04/27/87)
Apple's position of not warranting the upgrade is entirely reasonable in the face of the variety of upgrades avaiable. If Apple warrantied all upgrades produced by third parties they would have to be approved, checked, and rechecked Since a 128k -> 512K upgrade involves cutting a trace and running two more chip select lines it is doubtful Apple would be able to certify any. You say in your article that if the rom was bad it should still be under warrenty, likewise with the disk drive. What if one of the parts from the upgrade went bad in such a way as to toast your new rom and disk drive? Whose responsibility is it to fix the rom + disk drive? In conclusion, not warranting the upgrade is not a fiendish attempt to suck money from college students, rather apple is only not taking responsibility for things they aren't responsible for. Pierce Wetter Deck Us All With Boston Charlie Deck us all with Boston Charlie, Walla Walla, Wash., an' Kalamazoo! Nora's freezin' on the trolley, Swaller dollar cauliflower, alleygaroo! Don't we know archaic barrel, Lullaby Lilla Boy, Louisville Lou. Trolley Molly don't love Harold, Boola boola Pensacoola hullabaloo! -- Walt Kelly -------------------------------------------- wetter@tybalt.caltech.edu --------------------------------------------
ado@elsie.UUCP (Arthur David Olson) (04/27/87)
> If the 128K ROMS or 800K drive did fail within that time frame, > all your dealer would need to do is pull out the defective drive and/or > 128K ROMS put in a good set and return the defective parts to APPLE for > credit. Apple would have no way of knowing what sort of Mac those parts > had been in. Yes, the dealer might get away with the fraud described above; no, that does not make it right. -- UUCP: ..seismo!elsie!ado ARPA: elsie!ado@seismo.CSS.GOV Elsie and Ado are trademarks of Borden, Inc. and Ampvent
rick@uwmacc.UUCP (the absurdist) (04/27/87)
In article <384@ucdavis.UUCP> cccack@ucdavis.UUCP (David Ackerman) writes: >> To make a long story short, it is official Apple policy (I think we >> all know by now, although it seems kinda new to me) that once the board has >> been touched by non-Apple hands, any Apple upgrades made on it cannot be >> guaranteed. I don't know of any computer company that *will* warranty their machine after you've taken a knife to their boards. Pre-Mac SE and MacII upgrades are either clip-ons (i.e. the Hyperdrive) or board modifications. Apple began endorsing a limited # of clip-on mods almost immediately after Steve Jobs left (with, of course, the Hyperdrive being the #1 endorsed add on). If your upgrade was a solder trace cut job, you are probably out of luck; if it involved only a clip-on, pressure your dealer to check with Apple. -- Rick Keir -- one floor up from the Oyster Tank -- UWisc - Madison {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick
curry@nsc.UUCP (04/28/87)
Sorry people, but when are these people going to grow up. If you modify anything including your family automobile, the warranty is voided. Apple can not possibly test and monitor every third party upgrade to make sure that quality workmanship is done. Therefore they can not be sure that it won't cause power supply or heating problems that will damage the ROM or drive. If you have to save a few bucks, you have to be willing to assume total responsibility for the product. A reworked board is never as reliable as a new one. Just look at the number of complaints on the net about third party upgrades. Now imagine Apple trying to remain profitable when servicing warranties where the problem is most likely caused by a product that they neither made or installed. Not only would they have to fix faulty drives, but would have to spend time finding problems caused by the third party stuff that worked with the old but not with the new.
espen@well.UUCP (Peter Espen) (04/29/87)
In article <7396@elsie.UUCP>, ado@elsie.UUCP (Arthur David Olson) writes: > > If the 128K ROMS or 800K drive did fail within that time frame, > > all your dealer would need to do is pull out the defective drive and/or > > 128K ROMS put in a good set and return the defective parts to APPLE for > > credit. Apple would have no way of knowing what sort of Mac those parts > > had been in. > > Yes, the dealer might get away with the fraud described above; > no, that does not make it right. > -- What makes you think this is fraud?? Apple does not honor the warranty on anything that is modified by a non-apple modification. That means if you do a third party upgrade to your Mac,then the motherboard, power supply, etc. are no longer covered under the Apple's warranty. This does not prevent a REASONABLE dealer from covering a 128K ROM and/or 800K drive that fail within the warranty period for those parts.
stevel@dartvax.UUCP (04/29/87)
I had our shop ask Apple Technical Support (via AppleLink) about
the warranty of a disk/ROM upgrade in a 3rd party-ed Mac. Here's
the answer:
The warranty for the Drive and ROM kit upgrade is simply for the
upgraded parts, not the logic board, power supply, etc. whether
there are third party parts installed or not. If there are
problems, they must be demonstrated on a non-third-party unit
with the customer's parts installed before the warranty would
apply to the ROMs and the disk drive. In other words, Apple
does not warrant that the upgrade will be compatible with
someone else's modification to our computer, so you may want to
test te drive and ROM on another system before letting the
customer have them.
--
Steve Ligett stevel@dartmouth.edu or
(astrovax cornell decvax harvard ihnp4 linus true)!dartvax!stevel
Macintosh Mentality: Chex cereals is touting flashlights that
are fun and easy to use.jsp@unccvax.UUCP (Joel Patterson) (05/05/87)
In article <7396@elsie.UUCP>, ado@elsie.UUCP (Arthur David Olson) writes: > > If the 128K ROMS or 800K drive did fail within that time frame, > > all your dealer would need to do is pull out the defective drive and/or > > 128K ROMS put in a good set and return the defective parts to APPLE for > > credit. Apple would have no way of knowing what sort of Mac those parts > > had been in. > > Yes, the dealer might get away with the fraud described above; > no, that does not make it right. > -- The following is from the "Apple Service Programs" manual: from page 6.1, paragraph 4 under the heading: "Summary of APPLE Warranty Statements" " Modifications, (other than those listed on page 6.2), and damage caused by misuse or accident will void the warranty unless it is clear that there is no relation between the modification and the product failure. A module shipped to Apple will be returned to the dealer if it has been modified, altered, or made unfit for the 'exchange pool.'" from page 6.2 paragraph 3 under the heading: "Acceptable Modifications" "3. General Computer's Hyperdrive 10 and Hyperdrive 20 for the Macintosh." from page 8.1.4 under the heading: "MACINTOSH" "Non-Apple Ugrades (announced June 85)" "Third party defelopers offer internal hardware modifications such as homebrew MEMORY UPGRADES, COMPOSITE VIDEO PORTS and some HARD DISK DRIVES. APPLE WILL NOT HONOR WARRANTY OR APPLECARE CALIMS FOR ANY MACINTOSH SYSTEM WHICH HAS UNDERGONE ANY OF THESE MODIFICATIONS. IN ADDITION, MODULES WHICH HAVE BEEN MODIFIED OR ALTERED ARE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR EXCHANGE. Any altered modules received by Apple will be returned to the dealer. It is important that you identify altered parts and insure proper customer billing to avoid costly mistakes." "Boards which have been modified show signs of poor craftsmanship and soldering in the RAM and 68000 Microprocessor areas. Unmodified solder connections will appear consistent from component to component." "However, the recently introduced 'clip' version of Hyperdrive will NOT void Apple's 90-day limited warranty or AppleCare coverage IF PROPERLY INSTALLED BY AN AUTHORIZED APPLE DEALER OR BY GENERAL COMPUTER. The 'Clip' attaches the Hyperdrive controller board to the Macintosh's 68000 microprocessor without modification of the Macintosh Logic Board. This applies both to the 10 Mbyte and 20 Mbyte Hyperdrive products." End of Quote The above material is Copyright 1983 by Apple Computer, Inc. From this we can say that 'modules' (disk drives, ROMs, logic boards, power supplies, etc.) that have not been altered may be repaired under warranty unless any non covered modification caused the failure. If you have a clip on upgrade, it should be removed _before_ taking the system in for warranty repair, upgrade, etc., unless previously approved by your dealer. The dealer that would not cover his own work because of the modification was indeed shafting the customer. He should have made it clear that it would not be covered if the modification was at fault or contributed to the failure. Macintosh is a trademark licensed to Apple Computer, Inc. by McIntosh Laboratories. Hyperdrive is a trademark of General Computer, Inc. #include <disclaimer.h>
dgold@apple.UUCP (05/05/87)
In article <700@unccvax.UUCP> jsp@unccvax.UUCP (Joel Patterson) writes: >Macintosh is a trademark licensed to Apple Computer, Inc. by >McIntosh Laboratories. In the "earth-shattering news" category, I thought I would mention that we bought the rights to the Macintosh name, so the correct notice is: "Macintosh is a trademark of Apple Computer, Inc." This happened several months ago. -- David Goldsmith Apple Computer, Inc. MacApp Group AppleLink: GOLDSMITH1 UUCP: {nsc,dual,sun,voder,ucbvax!mtxinu}!apple!dgold CSNET: dgold@apple.CSNET, dgold%apple@CSNET-RELAY BIX: dgoldsmith
mbrookov@udenva.UUCP (mbrookov) (05/31/87)
There has been a great deal of discussion about who should guarantee a
Macintiosh with a non Apple memory upgarade. For some reason people
think Apple or the dealer should be responsible for other compaines
hardware, which could consivably (sp?) damage or not work with rom/800K
drive upgrades.
Why doesent the company that manufactured the upgrade guarantee the
Macintosh and any future upgrdes. If they refuse to, why would anybody
want to buy their product.
Matt Brookover
these are my opinions, I am not affiliated whith any bodss