wade@sdacs.ucsd.EDU (Wade S. Blomgren) (07/17/87)
[]
I have recieved about 25 responses to my survey on Macintosh SE display
problems. Unfortunately I neglected to ask which model of SE each person had,
so it is hard to draw conclusions about whether the problem (wiggle in the
display) is associated with the dual floppy model or the hard disk model.
The relevant responses were as follows:
Wiggle (y/n)? # of Machines Quotable Quotes
-------------- -------------- ------------------
No 1 "..does not exhibit this obnoxious behavior"
? 1 "..I am blurry eyed when I use it so I
can't tell"
No 1
Yes 1 "dealer says they are all like that"
No 1
No 1 "20 MB model"
No 1 "try calling Apple directly from work"
No 1 "my only complaint is the awfully annoying
fan"
Yes 7 "they all wiggle or jump up and down a
little...it's really sad, it shouldn't be
so messy"
Yes 1 "now that you mention it, there is a wiggle, you just ruined it for me."
No 1 "You should not be forced to accept this in
a new machine"
Yes 1 "never noticed it until you mentioned it..
another swell 'improvement'..disgusted"
Yes 2 "must be a problem in the new power supply.
probably the cathode voltage for the crt.
No 1
No 1 "steady as a rock..no way is the jitter
'normal'"
No 2 "good luck - sounds like you could use it"
? 1 "hardly any noticable jiggle" [how much is
hardly any? wb]
No 1 "if it is, my 512 must have been doing it
too...I don't notice anything different"
Yes 3 "this problem bugs me alot but nobody seems
to care...I hope you stir up some concern"
No 1
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm. The bad ones seem to come in batches. I have observed 4 out of 4 Wigglers.
The survey results, not including my 4:
Total Wigglers:15
Total Steady: 12
Not Sure: 2
So, there is a problem. Some people are upset. Our bookstore is about to
become a service center so I guess if there is an adjustment that can be
made I will take my machine in again and let the novice tech play with it.
I don't know if they will give me another exchange. I don't know if another
exchange will work. Do the hardware persons on the net think this problem
might be adjusted out? Does Apple acknowledge the problem?? I just read in
MacWeek that there have been complaints about SE displays, but that the
clamor over the fan is much bigger, and Apple is denying the fan is a
problem. I personally could not care less about the fan, as other things
around me make noise as well, most of them more noise than the fan.
What I do care about is that I am afraid the wiggling display will give
me a headache, reduce my enjoyment of the machine, and my productivity, and
the dealer can't help me since all the machines he gets are doing this.
How should I approach finding a solution? Or do I just suck it up and
live with it. This topic is now open for discussion.
Wade Blomgren
UCSD Academic Computing
...sdcsvax!sdacs!wade or
wade@sdacs.ucsd.edui91@nikhefh.UUCP (Fons Rademakers) (07/20/87)
I want to add that the about 10 SE's I have seen (here in Europe) also
all have a wiggling screen. The wiggle is very small and after a few
hours of work you get 'used' to it, but still, going back to a Plus
makes you realize that it used to be steady and should be steady.
Both the SE's with 2x800K drives and the SE's with 20MB drive
performed the wiggle.
-- Fons Rademakers
--
Org: NIKHEF-H, National Institute for Nuclear and High-Energy Physics.
Mail: Kruislaan 409, P.O. Box 41882, 1009 DB Amsterdam, the Netherlands
UUCP: {decvax,cernvax,uck,unido,vmucnam,seismo}!mcvax!nikhefh!i91
BITNET: nikhefh!i91@mcvax.bitnet Telex: 10262 (hef nl)egg@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Edwin G. Green) (07/20/87)
In article <409@sdacs.ucsd.EDU> wade@sdacs.ucsd.EDU (Wade S. Blomgren) writes: > >What I do care about is that I am afraid the wiggling display will give >me a headache, reduce my enjoyment of the machine, and my productivity, and >the dealer can't help me since all the machines he gets are doing this. >How should I approach finding a solution? Or do I just suck it up and >live with it. This topic is now open for discussion. I added a Hyperdrive 20 to my 512 and immediately developed the wiggle. I haven't noticed (but haven't really looked yet) a wiggle on my SE at home (my SE has dual floppies). I have lived with the wiggle for over a year and haven't suffered any of the problems that you fear and I look at the screen most of the day. My wiggle is most noticeable in the upper right hand corner of the screen. My dealer at first didn't acknowlege it, but later admitted that most of the Hyperdrive 20s had similar problems. -- Edwin G. Green AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, USA IHP 1D-530 312-416-7187 UUCP: ihnp4!ihlpa!egg
ems@apple.UUCP (Mike Smith) (07/28/87)
This is not meant as a joke, a casting of doubt, or in any way as a cute or 'smart' remark. It is meant totally as a searching for truth. I have noticed a tendency for my Mac+ screen to wiggle after a while. For me, at least, this is an optical illusion. I sat down and put put the edge of a piece of paper next to the characters and suddenly they didn't wiggle anymore ... Have you put a straight edge of some kind next to the wiggling lines to see how much they wiggle? If it is measureable, then it would have to be real. (It might even be easier to fix if it is real ...) The 'clustering' of the effect would also be explained by an individual either having or not having a susceptability to this effect. If it is an illusion, maybe there is something else that could be done to eliminate it? (This is all idle speculation on my part. I am not an authority on the Mac at all. I just babysit unix boxes.) BTW, my neighbors SE has a 'rock steady' display by the paper test. -- E. Michael Smith ...!sun!apple!ems 'If you can dream it, you can do it' Walt Disney This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything. (Including but not limited to: typos, spelling, diction, logic, and nuclear war)
hallett@hamlet.steinmetz (Hallett) (07/28/87)
In article <1370@apple.UUCP> ems@apple.UUCP (Mike Smith) writes: >This is not meant as a joke, a casting of doubt, or in any way as a >cute or 'smart' remark. It is meant totally as a searching for truth. > >I have noticed a tendency for my Mac+ screen to wiggle after a while. >For me, at least, this is an optical illusion. I sat down and put >put the edge of a piece of paper next to the characters and suddenly >they didn't wiggle anymore ... > You know, there is another illusionary effect that may appear to make the screen wiggle. If you eat, grit your teeth or chew gum while you use your Mac, you will see the screen flicker. This is because, stupid as it sounds, your eye is fast enough to compensate for the screen redraw and avoids the flicker. Chewing motions throw off the eye synch and, wah la, redraw flicker appears. I first noticed this a couple of years ago. I went to get a couple of Dutch pretzels and as I was walking back to my Mac, chewing, I noticed the screen jumping all over the place (the effect increases with distance from the screen). Scared me crapless; "Oh no, not a new analog board!" However when I stopped chewing, it stopped. I didn't really know the cause until a MacWorld Magazine article late last year mentioned this phenomenon. Of course, your screen might be jumping, too. 8-) Jeffrey A. Hallett (hallett@ge-crd.arpa hallett@desdemona.uucp) Software Technology Program General Electric Corporate Research and Development ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many" -- Kirk (STIII) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Disclaimer: My opinions do not represent my employer's, but it is his fault for giving me this thing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
wade@sdacs.ucsd.EDU (Wade S. Blomgren) (07/28/87)
In article <1370@apple.UUCP>, ems@apple.UUCP (Mike Smith) writes: > This is not meant as a joke, a casting of doubt, or in any way as a > cute or 'smart' remark. It is meant totally as a searching for truth. > > Have you put a straight edge of some kind next to the wiggling lines > to see how much they wiggle? If it is measureable, then it would have As the original poster of the survey and the responses, I though I would reply to Mike. This same thought occured to me, and I performed the 'paper test' also. My original SE and the current replacement failed miserably. These things Wiggle, with a capital W. I hate it. I am giving the current machine a few weeks to see if it gets worse but even if it does not I fear I will have to exchange it again...and again. Thanks for the thought Mike. At least you care. Wade Blomgren UCSD ACS ..sdcsvax!sdacs!wade+
chris@columbia.edu (Chris Maio) (07/29/87)
> I sat down and put put the edge of a piece of paper next to the characters > and suddenly they didn't wiggle anymore ... > If it is an illusion, maybe there is something else that could be done to > eliminate it? At least on the Mac SE's I've seen, that illusion seems to be caused by the screen beating; the beating is fairly rapid and subtle (some people don't notice it, others like me are really bothered by it), and I think what I perceive as wiggling is caused by my eyes trying to follow the beat pattern. The other thing I hate is the way the rightmost inch or so of the screen tends to bend upwards (definitely no illusion!). Has anyone tried unplugging the hard disk and fan to see if that has any effect on these problems? Chris
levin@cc5.bbn.com.BBN.COM (Joel B Levin) (07/29/87)
In article <4856@columbia.edu> chris@columbia.edu (Chris Maio) writes:
+> If it is an illusion, maybe there is something else that could be done to
+> eliminate it?
+
+At least on the Mac SE's I've seen, that illusion seems to be caused by the
+screen beating; the beating is fairly rapid and subtle . . .
I agree with this and similar comments (about the "chewing" effect).
Is this "real" or "illusion"? I don't know; but I'd be willing to bet
that there is some sort of interaction with some small vibration due
to the hard disk or the fan causing the beat. I strongly suggest
Apple look to see if more damping can eliminate the wiggle, which can
be from mildly moderately annoying, depending on things like window
size, contrast, ambient lighting, character size, etc.
/JBL
--
UUCP: {harvard, husc6, etc.}!bbn!levin
ARPA: levin@bbn.comsteele@unc.cs.unc.edu (Oliver Steele) (07/29/87)
hallett@hamlet.UUCP (Hallett) writes: }In article <1370@apple.UUCP> ems@apple.UUCP (Mike Smith) writes: }>I have noticed a tendency for my Mac+ screen to wiggle after a while. }>For me, at least, this is an optical illusion. I sat down and put }>put the edge of a piece of paper next to the characters and suddenly }>they didn't wiggle anymore ... } }You know, there is another illusionary effect that may appear to make }the screen wiggle. If you eat, grit your teeth or chew gum while you }use your Mac, you will see the screen flicker. This is because, }stupid as it sounds, your eye is fast enough to compensate for the }screen redraw and avoids the flicker. Chewing motions throw off the }eye synch and, wah la, redraw flicker appears. This is the Foskey Effect, and works best if you bend your knuckles and run your fingernails back and forth across your upper incisors while sitting about a meter away from the screen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Oliver Steele ...!{decvax,ihnp4}!mcnc!unc!steele steele%unc@mcnc.org "They're directly beneath us, Moriarty. Release the piano!"
dowdy@apple.UUCP (Tom Dowdy) (07/29/87)
In article <421@sdacs.ucsd.EDU> wade@sdacs.ucsd.EDU (Wade S. Blomgren) writes: >In article <1370@apple.UUCP>, ems@apple.UUCP (Mike Smith) writes: >> Have you put a straight edge of some kind next to the wiggling lines >> to see how much they wiggle? If it is measureable, then it would have > >As the original poster of the survey and the responses, I though I would >reply to Mike. This same thought occured to me, and I performed the >'paper test' also. My original SE and the current replacement failed >miserably. These things Wiggle, with a capital W. I hate it. I am >giving the current machine a few weeks to see if it gets worse but even >if it does not I fear I will have to exchange it again...and again. > I tried out the paper test as well. I thought I saw a wiggle in the other direction at all times. (ie, when the paper was vertical, I said, oh horizontal wiggles, when the paper was hoizontal, oh vertical wiggles) I came to the conclusion that maybe what it really is is a variation in screen intensity. Some additional observations: - It is much more pronounced in the upper left corner, not so much so in the lower right, and on mine I cant see it anyplace else. - If you want to see something REALLY interesting, go into some sort of editor with a "select all" option. Place paper vertically on the right side, punch "select all" and you'll notice the screen move in about 1/4 of an inch. - I never notice it and it never bothers me at all except when everyone here keeps bringing it up. I probably wouldn't have noticed it at all except that someone brought it up. It does not bother me, I do not hate it. - The effect is much more pronounced under florecent lights. (of course it is, everyone blames everything on them.) Someone made some comments about eating and looking at a Mac screen. This is an effect that can also be seen at the Exploitorium in SF. They have a light called "The Bronx Cheer Blub" which is one of those flickering candle type lights. If you stand away from it and give it a rasberry at the right "speed" then the flicker will stand still. Tom Dowdy CSNET: dowdy@apple.CSNET Apple Computer MS:27Y AppleLink:DOWDY1 20525 Mariani Ave UUCP: {sun,voder,amdahl,decwrl}!apple!dowdy Cupertino, CA 95014 "Plus ca change, Plus c'est la meme chose."
jeffp@phred.UUCP (Jeff Parke) (07/29/87)
Summary: Expires: Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: Keywords: d.EDU> wade@sdacs.ucsd.EDU (Wade S. Blomgren) writes: >In article <1370@apple.UUCP>, ems@apple.UUCP (Mike Smith) writes: >> Have you put a straight edge of some kind next to the wiggling lines >> to see how much they wiggle? If it is measureable, then it would have > >As l poster of the survey and the responses, I though I would >reply to Mike. This same thought occured to me, and I performed the >'paper test' also. My original SE and the current replacement failed >miserably. These things Wiggle, with a capital W. I hate it. I am >Wade Blomgren >UCSD ACS >..sdcsvax!sdacs!wade I just did the test described, and measured the wiggle at various parts of the screen to be from 0.005 to 0.008 inches. I think what makes it visually annoying is that the wiggles of parts of the screen are out of phase with each other. Thus the total displacement of parts of the screen relative to each other will exceed these measurements. I can't think of an easy way to quantify that, but I can see qualitatively little "waves" of wiggle traveling down my screen. This suggests to me some noise on the CRT steering waveforms (yoke drivers) that is not random and perhaps at or near a fundamental frequency of the vertical refresh rate. I have an SE at work and a Mac+ at home. I sit in front of both of them (too much) viewing them at similar angles and under similar lighting. There is no question that the Mac + display doesn't give this odd kind of wiggle while the SE does. Other Mac+ and SE comparisons at work bear this out. -- {ihnp4!allegra!fluke , seismo!rutgers!uw-beaver}!tikal!phred!jeffp {Jeff Parke} Genie : JEFFP DELPHI : JEFFPARKE Disclaimer: Random coincidence finds official policy here.
dorner@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (08/03/87)
Look--if you can't chew gum and ``Mac'' at the same time, maybe you're in the wrong business. Run for president, instead (remember Gerald [Whoops] Ford?). Steve P.S. :-)
alan@pdn.UUCP (Alan Lovejoy) (08/17/87)
In article <1370@apple.UUCP> ems@apple.UUCP (Mike Smith) writes: >... >I have noticed a tendency for my Mac+ screen to wiggle after a while. >For me, at least, this is an optical illusion. I sat down and put >put the edge of a piece of paper next to the characters and suddenly >they didn't wiggle anymore ... > If it's an "optical illusion", it could also be caused by the presence/ absence of fluorescent lighting, sunlight, electrical interference from nearby equipment (e.g, power lines). Perhaps some field experiments are in order here. Alan "just trying to be helpful" Lovejoy