gardner@prls.UUCP (Robert Gardner) (09/25/87)
Nat Goldhaber of Centram Inc. is quoted in the latest MacToday "attesting" to the "difficulty I'm having hiring Mac programmers." On the other hand, I have a publisher friend who says he is still being flooded with resumes. Who's right? Any comments? Has anyone noticed an affect on hiring or salary offers for experienced Mac programmers? Robert Gardner
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (09/26/87)
In article <6414@prls.UUCP> gardner@prls.UUCP (Robert Gardner) writes: >Nat Goldhaber of Centram Inc. is quoted in the latest MacToday "attesting" >to the "difficulty I'm having hiring Mac programmers." On the other hand, >I have a publisher friend who says he is still being flooded with resumes. > >Who's right? Any comments? Has anyone noticed an affect on hiring or salary >offers for experienced Mac programmers? We at TOPS (not Centram, not any more) are also deluged with resumes, most of which are depressingly unredeemed by any significant Macintosh and networking experience. I don't think the statements are neccessarily incompatible. -- Tim Maroney, {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)
chuq%plaid@Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (09/26/87)
>Nat Goldhaber of Centram Inc. is quoted in the latest MacToday "attesting" >to the "difficulty I'm having hiring Mac programmers." On the other hand, >I have a publisher friend who says he is still being flooded with resumes. > >Who's right? Any comments? Has anyone noticed an affect on hiring or salary >offers for experienced Mac programmers? It's easy to be flooded with resumes. How about qualified resumes, however? I've been contacted a few times by companies or headhunters looking for Mac people, thanks to my moderation of the desktop-publishing group. Based on my conversations with them, it looks like it is pretty hard to find good Mac programmers to come on board. It is pretty easy to find people who want to be good Mac programmers, but that isn't the same thing if you have a tight development schedule. One headhunter noted that most of the people doing Mac programming are doing it on a contract basis these days, because they can make more money that way (because they know they're in demand). For a company who wants an experienced Mac programmer as an employee, it seems to be a tough world out there. And since many of the firms doing Mac work are smaller, startup oriented companies, there isn't a lot of time or budget for turning people into Mac programmers. From what I can tell, it's currently a sellers market. If you're a good Mac programmer, you're in a good position. If you're trying to learn Mac programming, get some good products out into the User's Groups as PD or shareware -- things that you're proud to show off. chuq Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM Delphi: CHUQ Bye bye life! Bye bye happiness! Hello, loneliness, I think I'm gonna die.
root@sbcs.UUCP (09/28/87)
> Nat Goldhaber of Centram Inc. is quoted in the latest MacToday "attesting" > to the "difficulty I'm having hiring Mac programmers." On the other hand, > I have a publisher friend who says he is still being flooded with resumes. > Maybe I'm missing the point, but what makes the Mac so difficult that it requires "Mac programmers". Seems to me that anyone who has hacked on any "real" OS (e.g. Unix) should be able to handle the Mac with his/her tab key tied behind his back :-). Rick Spanbauer SUNY/Stony Brook PS. If you think it's bad trying to find Mac programmers, try finding people who can hack Amiga..
rickers@drexel.UUCP (09/28/87)
In article <6414@prls.UUCP>, gardner@prls.UUCP (Robert Gardner) writes: > Nat Goldhaber of Centram Inc. is quoted in the latest MacToday "attesting" > to the "difficulty I'm having hiring Mac programmers." On the other hand, > I have a publisher friend who says he is still being flooded with resumes. > > Who's right? Any comments? Has anyone noticed an affect on hiring or salary > offers for experienced Mac programmers? > > Robert Gardner But ... They are all dying off or not turning out to be as good as one would like them to be. Here at Drexel University we have had Macs around for many years now (since April 1984 growing at a rate of 2000/year). We have a room of software developers (courseware) that has been in existance since the time of receiving the first macs and before that. Wow, I remember writing my mac software on a lisa, not really knowing what the capabilities the mac would give us. In the early years of Macintosh, there were half a dozen of us (some of the best mac programmers i have met at that point :-) we have all disappeared, with few of us continuing to program the mac. Every six months, we get a new crop of Mac programmers/users who, for six months, work under a handful of "professionals" trying to develop courseware to meet some educational needs. The courseware that Drexel produces is not anything like it used to be - there really isn't that much of it coming out anymore. At one point in the early days, we had over 100 educational software programs almost completed or completed. Now, it has just shrunk. It is difficult to find *good* mac programmers. And now, I might start doing some more mac programming, and I have lots of it I would like to do, but I do not wish to do it all by myself and may need to find others. I think the best way to get someone is to grab college students who are currently involved with Macintosh programming at universities which are filled with macs, and give them some time. Hopefully their abilities will quickly increase with experience (mine did :-). Rickers ..!drexel!rickers
jww@sdcsvax.UCSD.EDU (Joel West) (09/28/87)
Also, many of the most productive contract programmers start out
as (or remain) moonlighters who are unwilling to give up their
regular job, at least at first.
--
Joel West (c/o UCSD)
Palomar Software, Inc., P.O. Box 2635, Vista, CA 92083
{ucbvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!jww jww@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu
or ihnp4!crash!palomar!joel joel@palomar.cts.combriand@tekig4.TEK.COM (Brian Diehm) (09/29/87)
>> to the "difficulty I'm having hiring Mac programmers." On the other hand, >> I have a publisher friend who says he is still being flooded with resumes. This discussion has all the earmarks of a real debate, because so far it seem to be glossing over the real issue while going solidly for the peripheral aspects. The question is, what is a programmer? Or what is a software engineer? And most importantly, what do we expect of our universities? If we are using universities as trade schools, then we would expect them to turn out people who are qualified to do one particular thing. If we expect our universities to be educational in nature, we would expect them to teach the underlying concepts and some skills exemplary of the knowledge base being imparted. The difference carries over to the marketplace. If a company is expecting to get a person with DIRECT experience on a hot new system, they are going to have to wait in line. However, the person with direct experience may have a very limited scope, and know only that one thing. On the other hand, they may go instead for a person with a deeper background, and accept someone who may not have experience that directly relates, knowing that the demonstrated performance in other environments indicates a minimum learning curve in their environment. If you've been out of school for more than 5 years or so, you know very well that everything has changed since you graduated. You also know that you are more experienced in the practical application of theory than you were when you first graduated. In short, you represent more value to your employer. He has paid for your increased value. If an employer cannot see that good experience elsewhere does not solve his needs, he is being short sighted. I did some early Mac programming, and found the entry effort and learning curve to be about typical; more involved than some environments, but not as much as some real doozies I've been involved in. Yes, it's more complex than a simple bare-bones system, but that's only because a huge part of the environment (and the product you're building) is already there. It seems that the overhead that an employer would need to grow their own is not especially odious. The fact that some are not willing to do so indicates that, as soon as your specialty is worn out, you may find yourself out on the street, should you actually be experienced in their hot discipline of the moment and accept their job offer. There is a lot of talk about retraining workforces and such now. How do you make "information technologists" out of steelworkers, etc. But if business is not even ready to do their share of something so close as making experienced programmers into the experienced Mac programmers they need, there is no hope for progress. The individuals can only do so much, by taking coursework and keeping their skills up to date. Fortunately, the marketplace will soon disabuse reluctant employers. If they want their products out, they'll take what's available eventually. Whenever I've hired professionals, I've looked for professionals. I don't care that their experience isn't with compiler xyzzy on system foo, I want demon- strated performance in some aspect of their discipline, and demonstrated ability to creativly solve problems. Anything else is fooling myself. -- -Brian Diehm (SDA - Standard Disclaimers Apply) Tektronix, Inc. briand@tekig4.TEK.COM or {decvax,cae780,uw-beaver}!tektronix!tekig4!briand
corwin@apple.UUCP (Someone Else) (09/29/87)
In article <616@sbcs.UUCP> root@sbcs.UUCP (Root) writes: >> Nat Goldhaber of Centram Inc. is quoted in the latest MacToday "attesting" >> to the "difficulty I'm having hiring Mac programmers." On the other hand, >> I have a publisher friend who says he is still being flooded with resumes. >> > >Maybe I'm missing the point, but what makes the Mac so difficult that it >requires "Mac programmers". Seems to me that anyone who has hacked on >any "real" OS (e.g. Unix) should be able to handle the Mac with his/her tab >key tied behind his back :-). > The thing that makes it difficult to program the mac is the user interface... Apple decided that ALL programs should use the same user friendly interface. This takes much work from the programmer. For example, I wrote a program for the mac recently for in house use. I first wrote a version for a UNIX environment... took me about three hours total. I then converted it first to a standard macintosh application (with movable windows, DA's, buttons, etc), then to a DA. Total time was about two weeks (although I did make several improvements in that time) Programming the mac properly requires that the programmer actually do some real work :-) -cory -- Disclaimer: It's all just Illusion! UUCP: {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!corwin CSNET: corwin@apple.csnet
oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu.UUCP (09/30/87)
Someone I couldn't reply to said: >Maybe I'm missing the point, but what makes the Mac so difficult that it >requires "Mac programmers". Seems to me that anyone who has hacked on >any "real" OS (e.g. Unix) should be able to handle the Mac with his/her tab >key tied behind his back :-). I think this deserves an answer since I write for both. The best way answer is with a metaphor: Think of a knife: (a) it has a handle that is most of the volume of the knife. (b) it has a blade that is most of the remaining volume of the knife (c) it has an edge, which is the thing that does the actual cutting, the edge is what the knife is for. algorithms are like the edge of the knife. For example, the algorithm of a terminal program is: doInParallel{ if(ThereIsACharFromKeyBoard()) SendItToSerialOutputPort(); if(ThereIsACharFromSerialInputPort()) SendItToScreen(); } Both the unix terminal program "cu" and a Mac terminal program like versaterm have this algorithm at their heart. The unix software provides a little of the "blade" in the form of a few command line options. By comparison, take any piece of mac software and scan throught the menu items and dialogs to see what is going on there. The functionality is huge compared to the Unix equivalent. Also, proper mac software is higher quality that most of the software delivered with Unix. In general, Mac software handles out-of-main-memory, and out-of-disk-space conditions gracefully. Most Unix programs just crash under these conditions. Please excuse me, I'm just a little annoyed at the moment. I was on the phone and I needed to look at a file on my Sun running X windows. I've got a stiff neck, so I needed one hand to hold the phone, and I couldn't get my X workstation to do anything unless I used a second hand to hold down the "meta" key while I was using a third hand to left-mouse-button on the item I wanted. (I eventually used my elbow.) Yesterday, our VAX Unix crashed because one of its hard disks got full, and a new SCSI disk was delivered for one of our Suns. Each required enough file system surgery so that my entire work day was spent dealing with them. The equivalent tasks on a Mac would have taken a half hour at most. Do you see the difference? On the Macintosh, I spend a long time getting it right, so it won't crash and will be easy to use. On Unix, the system was hacked together so it sort of works, and you have to spend a long time cleaning up after it. --- David Phillip Oster --A Sun 3/60 makes a poor Macintosh II. Arpa: oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu --A Macintosh II makes a poor Sun 3/60. Uucp: {uwvax,decvax,ihnp4}!ucbvax!oster%dewey.soe.berkeley.edu
jteh@mulga.UUCP (09/30/87)
In article <518@drexel.UUCP>, rickers@drexel.UUCP (Rick Wargo) writes: > It is difficult to find *good* mac programmers. What would you define as a *good* mac programmer? > I think the best way to get someone is to grab college students who > are currently involved with Macintosh programming at universities > which are filled with macs, and give them some time. Hopefully their > abilities will quickly increase with experience (mine did :-). > > Rickers > ..!drexel!rickers I agree. I learnt mine at uni. -------------- J.T. Teh =========================== UUCP: {seismo,mcvax,ukc,ubc-vision}!mulga!jteh ARPA: jteh%mulga.oz@seismo.css.gov CSNET: jteh%mulga.oz@australia
roy@phri.UUCP (09/30/87)
In article <21020@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu.UUCP (David Phillip Oster) writes: > Also, proper mac software is higher quality that most of the software > delivered with Unix. In general, Mac software handles out-of-main-memory, > and out-of-disk-space conditions gracefully. Most Unix programs just crash > under these conditions. Actually, my experience has been that if you compare well-written modern Unix and Mac programs (say, emacs vs. MacDraft), they both seem to have about the same level of robustness in the face of resource exhaustion. The difference is that when the aren't robust enough, the Unix program gets a segmentation violation and dumps core and the Mac program hangs the whole system requiring a reboot. I havn't done any Mac programming myself, but I've looked at some Mac code. Yes, the algorithm is lost in the morass of window management code, but that's not terribly different from most Suntools programs I've seen either. -- Roy Smith, {allegra,cmcl2,philabs}!phri!roy System Administrator, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
rickers@drexel.UUCP (Rick Wargo) (10/03/87)
In article <2280@mulga.oz>, jteh@mulga.oz (J.T. Teh) writes: > In article <518@drexel.UUCP>, rickers@drexel.UUCP (Rick Wargo) writes: > > It is difficult to find *good* mac programmers. > > > > Rickers > > ..!drexel!rickers > > What would you define as a *good* mac programmer? > > J.T. Teh > =========================== > UUCP: {seismo,mcvax,ukc,ubc-vision}!mulga!jteh > ARPA: jteh%mulga.oz@seismo.css.gov > CSNET: jteh%mulga.oz@australia Without sounding too vane, a good mac programmer is someone who wants to devote much of their time to learning the mac. I was able to master the Apple ][ in high school, learning all of the in's and out's of the machine. This was not too difficult because the Apple ][ is not as complicated as the Mac. The Mac just has so many features that it take dedication and devotion to produce good quality software. So, I guess a *good* mac programmer is one with lts of *dedication* and *devotion* (not to mention a lot of patience 8-). Yes, I do consider myself a good mac programmer (or at least used to be :-). Today I have not the time to keep up with the Macintosh as much as I would like and have fallen behind in mability to utilize the Mac to its fullest potential. With any luck, though, I have two big jobs that may use the Mac II and willbe fortunate enough to be able to program the Mac once again! Rickers ..!drexel!rickers