[comp.sys.mac] hypertext vs. hypercards

mfi@ufcsg.cis.ufl.EDU (Mark Interrante) (10/02/87)

Does anyone know if hypercards allows a user to associate a button with a 
particular word in a text field?  This is a generic operation in most 
hypertext systems and would be crippling to hypercards if such a facility 
was not readily available.  

I seems that Apple has underpowered the text facilities in favor of supporting
extensive draw utilities. has anyone else found this hampering?

lippin@jiff (tom lippincott) (10/04/87)

mfi@ufcsg.cis.ufl.EDU (Mark Interrante) writes:
>Does anyone know if hypercards allows a user to associate a button with a 
>particular word in a text field?

I don't know whether a button can be associated with the actual text,
but it's really easy to make a transparent button and put it over a word
(or anything else).  Of course, if the text changes, the button won't stick to
the word.

					--Tom Lippincott
					lippin@bosco.berkeley.edu

	"Oh yeah!" -- I. Kant, _The_Critique_of_Pure_Reason_

thomsen@trwspf.TRW.COM (Mark Thomsen) (10/05/87)

In article <689@ufcsg.cis.ufl.EDU> mfi@ufcsg.cis.ufl.EDU (Mark Interrante) writes:
>Does anyone know if hypercards allows a user to associate a button with a 
>particular word in a text field?  This is a generic operation in most 
>hypertext systems and would be crippling to hypercards if such a facility 
>was not readily available.  
>
>I seems that Apple has underpowered the text facilities in favor of supporting
>extensive draw utilities. has anyone else found this hampering?


A script (the principle unit of action in Hypercard) may be associated with a
whole field or a button.  Fields and buttons are two types of objects of
roughly the same level of the inheritance hierarchy.

Thus ...

The direct answer is no, you cannot associated a button - or an action - with
a specific word in a field.  Yes, I do find this hampering, though this does
not come from working with Hypertext previously.  I would expect to expand and
define and link a word in various contexts of browsing information.

A thought ...

I have been producing personal stacks to get myself organized and have just
started thinking through some stacks I would like to share.  (Yes, I'm that
disorganized and yes my priorities are that way).  In thinking of new stacks
I have started a wish list for future Hypercard capabilities.  Bill Atkinson,
if you are out there:

  - Text seems to have a greater status than pictures.  Now, without object
    drawing it is hard, but it seems sensible to have picture fields.

  - A Hyperartifact may have its spaghetti in the development and refinement,
    and use various wordprocessors, spreadsheets, drawing tools, etc.  When
    done, it would be nice to say "print that" and have it all come together
    in a seemless document.  While hypertext is important in its own write
    (sorry John Lennon, it slipped), it sometimes is part of the process and
    not necessarily the final artifact.

  - There should be an automatic map display and navigation capability as in
    the help stack -- it is an essential feature of hypertext.

  - In my dreams I think of "tiny agents" that perform in the background to
    help perform certain housekeeping, alerting, sorting, searching, and such
    functions.  I would like to provide these as scripts that operate
    concurrently with browsing.  This suggests scripts below the surface of
    Hypercard, unassociated with any visible field, button, background, and
    maybe even stack (though it has to be someplace, like its own file).  I
    am unsure of exactly how this works, but it seems like a good thing to
    have.

That's all for now folks.


                                               Mark R. Thomsen

keith@apple.UUCP (Keith Rollin) (10/06/87)

In article <689@ufcsg.cis.ufl.EDU> mfi@ufcsg.cis.ufl.EDU (Mark Interrante) writes:
>Does anyone know if hypercards allows a user to associate a button with a 
>particular word in a text field?  This is a generic operation in most 
>hypertext systems and would be crippling to hypercards if such a facility 
>was not readily available.  
>
>I seems that Apple has underpowered the text facilities in favor of supporting
>extensive draw utilities. has anyone else found this hampering?


There are 2 methods suggested in the 1st and only issue of Windoid, Apple's
Hypercard User Group's informal publication (it was posted here a couple of 
weeks ago).

Method #1: Place a tansparent button over the word in question, or an 
           asterisk button after it. This has the advantage of not being
           ambiguous, but it is not flexible (i.e. the button doesn't move
           with the text, as in a scrolling field).

Method #2: Place this script within your field handler:

on MouseDown
  Set locktext of me to false
  click at the clickloc
  click at the clickloc
  if the selection is "Apple" then
    answer "What kind of Apple" with "Macintosh" or "Apple II"
  else
    put "I don't know that word" into msg
  end if
  set locktext of me to true
end MouseDown

          Of course, the disadvantages of this method are paramount, also. If
          you have a locked scrolling field, you may be able to do something
          with double-clicking on the word within the script (like above) and
          then finding its offset into the field. If it is in the right 
          position, then do what you need.


It says in the introduction of Danny Goodman's book that Bill Atkinson is
dedicated to the evolution of HyperCard for the next several years. If this is
the case, then be sure to make your request enhancements known.
-- 

Keith Rollin
Sales Technical Support
Apple Computer

Stupid Disclaimer: I read this board for fun, not profit

Stupid Quote: If god had meant man to fly, he would have given him plane tickets

roberts@cognos.uucp (Robert Stanley) (10/12/87)

In article <6421@apple.UUCP> keith@apple.UUCP (Keith Rollin) writes:

>There are 2 methods suggested in the 1st and only issue of Windoid, Apple's
>Hypercard User Group's informal publication (it was posted here a couple of 
>weeks ago).

>Method #1: Place a tansparent button over the word in question, or an 
>           asterisk button after it. This has the advantage of not being
>           ambiguous, but it is not flexible (i.e. the button doesn't move
>           with the text, as in a scrolling field).

there is one really serious problem with this approach, and that is that the
font in which the text is displayed must not be altered.  I ran into this in
a big way with the first distributed version of HyperCard, where the help
stack uses a transparent button over a text asterisk to link to additional
information.  Whatever font the help stack used, I don't appear to have on
my system, and the asterisks displayed with only the most casual of relation
to the position of the buttons!  Absolutely baffling to a novice user.

You can, however, write scripts capable of detecting specifici lines, words,
and words within lines, but it gets to be a lot of programming, and is also
susceptible to font changes (number of words per line changes).

This is clearly one for Bill Atkinson, to allow a LIVE word within a text
string to be used as a sub-button or sub-field.
-- 
Robert Stanley           Cognos Incorporated     S-mail: P.O. Box 9707
Voice: (613) 738-1440 (Research: there are 2!)           3755 Riverside Drive 
  FAX: (613) 738-0002    Compuserve: 76174,3024          Ottawa, Ontario 
 uucp: decvax!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!roberts          CANADA  K1G 3Z4

socha@drivax.UUCP (Henri J. Socha (7-x6628)) (10/14/87)

OK Atkinson et al, here's another obvious(?) addition to HyperCard:

In article <1267@cartan.Berkeley.EDU> lippin@jiff.UUCP (tom lippincott) writes:
>mfi@ufcsg.cis.ufl.EDU (Mark Interrante) writes:
>>Does anyone know if hypercards allows a user to associate a button with a 
>>particular word in a text field?

  But, Hypertext was defined this way.  Guide and other systems I've seen do it.

>I don't know whether a button can be associated with the actual text,
>but it's really easy to make a transparent button and put it over a word
>(or anything else).  Of course, if the text changes, the button won't stick to
>the word.
>					--Tom Lippincott

Now, can I do something like (sorry, it's not hypertalk but you get the idea)

	 put location of "word" in field 1 into curses
	 move button to curses  (or some other equivalent action)

I.E. so the button moves to always be under/over the text. and if the text 
is not visible, the button moves off screen?

Anyway, the concept model (as I understand it) does not seem to allow
buttons to be associated with text items within fields. I.E. they stick to
the card/background and not the text.
 Hey! why not allow buttons to stick to text as an added check-box in
the button info box?  

Anyway, I've bashed enough on a great product.
-- 
UUCP:...!amdahl!drivax!socha                                      WAT Iron'75
"Everything should be made as simple as possible but not simpler."  A. Einstein

beloin@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Ron Beloin) (10/15/87)

In article <1555@cognos.UUCP> roberts@cognos.UUCP (Robert Stanley) writes:
(oops, I deleted his text).. that font changes would upset the
number of words on a line in hypercard fields, thereby confounding
programming attempts to look at what word the user might be clicking
or whatever. In fact, hypercard considers a "line" to be the chars
between carriage returns (or thebeginning and end of field text),
regardless of the word wrapped appearance of the text, so font changes
will not change the number or position of words in a line. It can
get confusing, however, if the user is entering text, and some end lines
with cr's, and other users allow word wrapping. In that case, it is probably
important to have separate fields designed to prevent such occurrences.
ron.
 Ro
n Beloin, Ecosystems Research Center, Corson Hall, Cornell, Ithaca,NY 14853
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