paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) (10/15/87)
I have a beef with Apple (although I doubt that they'll really care). I
work in a university computer center and support the various microcomputers
on campus. We have both PC's and Mac's on campus, but certainly a lot more
PC's in total. One of the main reasons for the approximate 5 to 1 quantity
difference between PC's and Mac's is the ridiculously high price of Apple
products, in particular the Mac SE.
When people ask me for recommendations on what type of computer they want
to buy, I usually say it depends on how much they want to spend. I like
recommending systems with 1 floppy and 20 Megs of hard disk storage mainly
because software these days just doesn't work well in dual floppy environments
(on both PC's and Mac's).
The typical price of a 640K, 20Meg PC-compatible here in Canada is around
$1500 (and this often includes a cheap dot-matrix printer). Both Tandy
and Epson have had such offers over the summer. For most students, $1500
is quite affordable. Then I tell them how much an equivalent Macintosh
system would cost. A Mac SE with 20Meg hard disk lists at $6150. Of
course, they'll need a printer as well: another $1045. And they'll need
a printer cable: another $50. After adding tax, the final results are:
PC-clone: $1650.
MAC SE: $7970.
MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC)
Admittedly, the Mac SE/Plus might be slightly better quality. And because
of a good selection of software, the Mac might be able to do a few things
the PC can't without adding extras. But is it really worth 5 times as
much as a typical PC-clone? I don't think anybody on this net, except
perhaps Apple, would think so. If you were a student, which system would
you most likely end up with?
Some people will probably complain that I'm comparing apples to oranges,
and to a certain extent I probably am. But what I'm looking at here are
two systems which will both do a similar job. I'd like to hear people's
comments on this matter. Just for the record, I think a Mac SE should cost
about $1800, with the hard disk version going for around $2500. The printer
is worth about $500. If Apple would adopt such a pricing policy, I think
they would see a significant increase of Mac sales to end-users, not just
educators and researchers who can get significant discounts. But maybe
Apple isn't interested in us end-users? Comments?
Paul H. Steele USENET: {uunet|watmath|utai|garfield}!dalcs!aucs!Paul
Acadia University BITNET: Paul@Acadia
Wolfville, NS
CANADA B0P 1X0 (902) 542-2201x587B5U@PSUVMA.BITNET (George A. Brownfield) (10/15/87)
In article <457@aucs.UUCP>, paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) says: > >I have a beef with Apple (although I doubt that they'll really care). I >work in a university computer center and support the various microcomputers >on campus. We have both PC's and Mac's on campus, but certainly a lot more >PC's in total. One of the main reasons for the approximate 5 to 1 quantity >difference between PC's and Mac's is the ridiculously high price of Apple >products, in particular the Mac SE. > >system would cost. A Mac SE with 20Meg hard disk lists at $6150. Of >course, they'll need a printer as well: another $1045. And they'll need >a printer cable: another $50. After adding tax, the final results are: > > PC-clone: $1650. > MAC SE: $7970. > MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) > > >Paul H. Steele USENET: {uunet|watmath|utai|garfield}!dalcs!aucs!Paul >Acadia University BITNET: Paul@Acadia Those prices are ridiculous - someone along the line is giving you the shaft in terms of price. We get a 40% discount in terms of cash - a dual floppy SE is $1799 through the University - one w/ internal 20 meg hard drive is around $2200. An Imagewriter II is $412.50. These are slightly lower than the average that appeared on the net - but even downtown an SE is only in the $2500-3000 range. Is there that much of a difference between the US and Canadian dollar, or that much of an import quota, or what? ------- George A. Brownfield B5U @ PSUVMA (preferred) Aerospace Engineering Major B5U @ PSUVM THE Pennsylvania State University GAB @ PSUECL Home of the 1986 Football National Champion Nittany Lions BITNET: B5U @ PSUVM, GAB @PSUECL UUCP: {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!b5u
suhler@im4u.UUCP (Paul A. Suhler) (10/16/87)
In article <457@aucs.UUCP> paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: >[...] Then I tell them how much an equivalent Macintosh >system would cost. A Mac SE with 20Meg hard disk lists at $6150. Of >course, they'll need a printer as well: another $1045. And they'll need >a printer cable: another $50. After adding tax, the final results are: > > MAC SE: $7970. > MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) [...] >comments on this matter. Just for the record, I think a Mac SE should cost >about $1800, with the hard disk version going for around $2500. The printer >is worth about $500. If Apple would adopt such a pricing policy, I think That's about what the SEs DO cost at UTexas. The $7000 + prices seem completely insane. Are they being slapped with some massive import tariff? Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac Subject: Re: Mac prices Summary: What's happening in Canada?! References: <457@aucs.UUCP> Reply-To: suhler@im4u.UUCP (Paul A. Suhler) Distribution: na Organization: Univ of Texas Electrical & Computer Engineering Dept In article <457@aucs.UUCP> paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: > PC-clone: $1650. > MAC SE: $7970. > MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) [...] >comments on this matter. Just for the record, I think a Mac SE should cost >about $1800, with the hard disk version going for around $2500. The printer >is worth about $500. If Apple would adopt such a pricing policy, I think That's about what the SEs DO cost at UTexas. The $7000 + prices seem completely insane. Are they being slapped with some massive import tariff? -- Paul Suhler suhler@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU 512-474-9517/471-3903
mentat@auscso.UUCP (Robert Dorsett) (10/16/87)
In article <457@aucs.UUCP> paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: > >A Mac SE with 20Meg hard disk lists at $6150. Of >course, they'll need a printer as well: another $1045. And they'll need >a printer cable: another $50. After adding tax, the final results are: > > PC-clone: $1650. > MAC SE: $7970. > MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) What currency are those prices in? Singapore dollars? :-) That's pretty incredible. Does Canada have some fantastic import duty on American comput- ers or something? If it does, I can't see what good blaming Apple will do. Petition your government for a change in tariffs. That's almost a 300% markup in US retail. Of course, there's always the possibility that Canada's considered part of "international" sales. If so, the prices become more believable. I don't have information on current recommended pricing, but back in 1982, Apple routinely sold its equipment for 50% more than what the same equipment costs here. That was in turn used as a base pricing structure which dealers could add import duties and taxes onto. >Just for the record, I think a Mac SE should cost >about $1800, with the hard disk version going for around $2500. The printer >is worth about $500. If Apple would adopt such a pricing policy, I think A Mac Plus (retail) with a (retail) hard disk costs about $2300, currently. One can get the same system through the academic market for about $1800. Moreover, academic institutions working through Apple's school sales mech- anism can get some REALLY low bids (I've seen some of the offers, and they're way beneath anything the Consortium offers). -- Robert Dorsett {allegra,seismo}!sally!ut-ngp!walt!mentat University of Texas at Austin {allegra, seismo}!sally!ut-ngp!auscso!mentat
gnome@oliveb.UUCP (Gary) (10/16/87)
Prices in Canada... > > PC-clone: $1650. > MAC SE: $7970. > MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) Those prices are laughable! Either the customs people are jacking-up the price when they cross the border, or their is no decent discont Apple dealers up there! Ouch! Actually, I know that software going into Canada gets about 20% tacked onto it. I'll bet that the PC-clones are assembled in Canada and therefore don't get taxed-up-the-ass. A Mac + with a 20 Meg Dataframe is about $2500 (a while ago, it has probably gone down since then) in the San Jose area of CA. Gary
toby@apple.UUCP (Toby Farrand) (10/16/87)
In article <457@aucs.UUCP> paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: >I have a beef with Apple (although I doubt that they'll really care). I >work in a university computer center and support the various microcomputers >on campus. We have both PC's and Mac's on campus, but certainly a lot more >PC's in total. One of the main reasons for the approximate 5 to 1 quantity >difference between PC's and Mac's is the ridiculously high price of Apple >products, in particular the Mac SE. > >When people ask me for recommendations on what type of computer they want >to buy, I usually say it depends on how much they want to spend. I like >recommending systems with 1 floppy and 20 Megs of hard disk storage mainly >because software these days just doesn't work well in dual floppy environments >(on both PC's and Mac's). > >The typical price of a 640K, 20Meg PC-compatible here in Canada is around >$1500 (and this often includes a cheap dot-matrix printer). Both Tandy >and Epson have had such offers over the summer. For most students, $1500 >is quite affordable. Then I tell them how much an equivalent Macintosh >system would cost. A Mac SE with 20Meg hard disk lists at $6150. Of >course, they'll need a printer as well: another $1045. And they'll need >a printer cable: another $50. After adding tax, the final results are: > > PC-clone: $1650. > MAC SE: $7970. > MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) > >Admittedly, the Mac SE/Plus might be slightly better quality. And because >of a good selection of software, the Mac might be able to do a few things >the PC can't without adding extras. But is it really worth 5 times as >much as a typical PC-clone? I don't think anybody on this net, except >perhaps Apple, would think so. If you were a student, which system would >you most likely end up with? > >Some people will probably complain that I'm comparing apples to oranges, >and to a certain extent I probably am. But what I'm looking at here are >two systems which will both do a similar job. I'd like to hear people's >comments on this matter. Just for the record, I think a Mac SE should cost >about $1800, with the hard disk version going for around $2500. The printer >is worth about $500. If Apple would adopt such a pricing policy, I think >they would see a significant increase of Mac sales to end-users, not just >educators and researchers who can get significant discounts. But maybe >Apple isn't interested in us end-users? Comments? > > >Paul H. Steele USENET: {uunet|watmath|utai|garfield}!dalcs!aucs!Paul >Acadia University BITNET: Paul@Acadia >Wolfville, NS >CANADA B0P 1X0 (902) 542-2201x587
dwb@apple.UUCP (David W. Berry) (10/16/87)
In article <457@aucs.UUCP> paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: >system would cost. A Mac SE with 20Meg hard disk lists at $6150. Of >course, they'll need a printer as well: another $1045. And they'll need >a printer cable: another $50. After adding tax, the final results are: > > PC-clone: $1650. > MAC SE: $7970. > MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) Would you believe the list prices are: Mac SE $2769 Mac SE w/Internal 20 $3469 Mac Plus $2199 Mac II w/Internal 40 $5369 ImageWriter II $595 As you can see, there appears to be some discrepancy between your quoted prices and reality. Prices through UC are around 30% off of the list, varying by university. After taxes are taken into account, it seems unlikely that, even in Canada, your quotes are reasonable. 77% import duty seems a little unlikely. > >Admittedly, the Mac SE/Plus might be slightly better quality. And because We like to think so :-) >of a good selection of software, the Mac might be able to do a few things >the PC can't without adding extras. But is it really worth 5 times as >much as a typical PC-clone? I don't think anybody on this net, except >perhaps Apple, would think so. If you were a student, which system would >you most likely end up with? Five times, no. Twice, certainly, I paid full list of $3000 for my first Macintosh and ImageWriter in Feb. 1984 and never regretted the decision. And that was over three years before I went to work for Apple. Apparently there are quite a few people outside of apple who think the prices isn't too unreasonable. 10,000 Apple employees certainly don't own any sizeable portion of the 3 million (is that number right?) macs that have been sold. > >Paul H. Steele USENET: {uunet|watmath|utai|garfield}!dalcs!aucs!Paul >Acadia University BITNET: Paul@Acadia >Wolfville, NS >CANADA B0P 1X0 (902) 542-2201x587 -- David W. Berry dwb@well.uucp dwb@Delphi dwb@apple.com 973-5168@408.MaBell Disclaimer: Apple doesn't even know I have an opinion and certainly wouldn't want if they did.
alan@pdn.UUCP (Alan Lovejoy) (10/17/87)
In article <457@aucs.UUCP> paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: >The typical price of a 640K, 20Meg PC-compatible here in Canada is around >$1500 (and this often includes a cheap dot-matrix printer). Both Tandy >and Epson have had such offers over the summer. For most students, $1500 >is quite affordable. Then I tell them how much an equivalent Macintosh >system would cost. A Mac SE with 20Meg hard disk lists at $6150. Of >course, they'll need a printer as well: another $1045. And they'll need >a printer cable: another $50. After adding tax, the final results are: > > PC-clone: $1650. > MAC SE: $7970. > MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) > Either you are confusing Mac SE prices with Mac II prices, or Mac prices in Canada are far higher than they are here (U.S.). A Mac SE with 20MB HD lists at $3600 and can actually be purchased for about $3K. Secondly, the equivalent to the Mac SE is most emphatically NOT the PC, but the AT. The SE's price is comparable to the PS/2 Model 50's price, although still high by comparison with some AT clones. But you always pay more for a name brand. Apple doesn't have any computers that really can be fairly compared to the PC or XT models. The Macs (all of'em) are too superior, the Apple IIe's and IIc's are inferior and the IIGS is targeted at a different market, although that is changing (the PC's and XT's will soon be retargeted to the same market the IIGS sells in). --alan@pdn
psych@watdcsu.UUCP (10/19/87)
In Canada the suggested list price for macs is as follows: MacSE with 2 800K floppies & standard KBRD $4795 MacSE with 1 800K floppy & st. KBRD & 20 Meg drive $6150 MacPlus $3595 HD20SC $2195 The consoritum prices are between 50% and 66% of these prices. People at Canadian institutions should talk to Apple about getting deals. Up here we can't go by the prices quoted in American $$. Richard Crispin Dept. of Psychology University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3G1 (519)885-1211 ext 2879
tomwest@utgpu.UUCP (10/19/87)
In article <500@auscso.UUCP> mentat@auscso.UUCP (Robert Dorsett) writes: >In article <457@aucs.UUCP> paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: >> >>A Mac SE with 20Meg hard disk lists at $6150. Of >>course, they'll need a printer as well: another $1045. And they'll need >>a printer cable: another $50. After adding tax, the final results are: >> >> PC-clone: $1650. >> MAC SE: $7970. >> MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) > >What currency are those prices in? Singapore dollars? :-) That's pretty >incredible. Does Canada have some fantastic import duty on American comput- >ers or something? If it does, I can't see what good blaming Apple will do. It isn't all that bad. At U of T, which sells only to UofT student/staff the Mac+ alone goes for $2320. The SE (2 floppys) $3200 and the imagewriter II goes for $750. Bad, but not insane. As for tariffs, it isn't all that bad. But we do get a 11% Fed sales tax and 5-15% duty added on. -- Tom West BITNET: tomwest@utorgpu.bitnet, tomwest@gpu.utcs.utoronto Internet: tomwest@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu UUCP: tomwest@utgpu utzoo, yetti, harpo, mnetor \ cbosgd, deepthot, utoronto - !utgpu!tomwest ihnp4, lsuc, sfmin, vnr-vpa /
merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) (10/20/87)
In article <457@aucs.UUCP>, Paul Steele writes: > I have a beef with Apple. [...] We have both PC's and Mac's on campus, but > certainly a lot more > PC's in total. One of the main reasons for the approximate 5 to 1 quantity > difference between PC's and Mac's is the ridiculously high price of Apple > products, in particular the Mac SE. > > The typical price of a 640K, 20Meg PC-compatible here in Canada is around > $1500 (and this often includes a cheap dot-matrix printer). > [...] For most students, $1500 [...] > is quite affordable. Then I tell them how much an equivalent Macintosh > system would cost. A Mac SE with 20Meg hard disk lists at $6150. Of > course, they'll need a printer as well: another $1045. And they'll need > a printer cable: another $50. After adding tax, the final results are: > > PC-clone: $1650. > MAC SE: $7970. > MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) > > Admittedly, the Mac SE/Plus might be slightly better quality. And because > of a good selection of software, the Mac might be able to do a few things > the PC can't without adding extras. But is it really worth 5 times as > much as a typical PC-clone? > > Some people will probably complain that I'm comparing apples to oranges, > and to a certain extent I probably am. But what I'm looking at here are > two systems which will both do a similar job. No. A Macintosh SE is certainly not worth $7800. I would HATE to see the price for a Mac II, if that's what the price for an SE is in Canada. I suppose American pricing is a bit more reasonable. With the internal hard disk, it sells for $3599 (or around there). It's still a bit pricey, though, when you consider that I can get a cheap 80286 clone for about $1000. Figure a nice high-resolution monitor at another $500. Of course, I think Apple is shooting the Macintosh at the business market, where they seem willing to pay that kind of money. Why? Because there are lots of annoying hidden costs in PCs that spring up. For business, there's the high cost of TRAINING. That is supposed to be one of the biggest hidden costs in any personal computer system, according to industry analysts. They also have shown that, overall, the Macintosh is cheaper because it requires less training. Also, because MS-DOS does not help applications support any sort of standard interface, MS-DOS programs have evolved their own way of doing things. Thus, with each program being quite different from each other program, most MS-DOS system users use, on the average, two programs and use their computer half-an-hour out of a typical eight hour day. The Macintosh user, on the other hand, uses more programs (I think the average is 5) and is on the machine an average of four hours a day. These studies point to a higher level of productivity in Macintosh users than in their comparable PC users. So, while your hardware is cheaper, you spend more time and effort learning to use your computer. You probably will not take as full advantage of your MS-DOS system as you do your Macintosh system because of this. You also will probably not be as productive, which is why you're buying the computer in the first place, right? So you end up having to ask the question: Is this ease-of-use and increased productivity worth an extra $1500 to me? Now, of course, the times are a-changing. Windows/386 is supposed to be absolutely incredible. 80386 systems with 20meg hard drives are being priced comparably with the SE and a 20meg hard drive. OS/2, when it comes out, looks as though it might give the Macintosh a definite run for it's money. What Apple should probably do is position either the 512KE (Who?) or the Plus as a clone-buster. "Yes, you can have both the low price and Macintosh technology." Position the SE and any of it's brothers as the next tier up. Position the Mac II and their ilk as the "high-end" of the platform. But, of course, that's just one man's opinion... -- "There's so much Peter Merchant (merchant@dartvax.UUCP) I need to say to you..."
waltervj@dartvax.UUCP (walter jeffries) (10/20/87)
In article <457@aucs.UUCP> paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: >I have a beef with Apple (although I doubt that they'll really care). I >work in a university computer center and support the various microcomputers >on campus. We have both PC's and Mac's on campus, but certainly a lot more >PC's in total. One of the main reasons for the approximate 5 to 1 quantity >difference between PC's and Mac's is the ridiculously high price of Apple >products, in particular the Mac SE. > : > PC-clone: $1650. > MAC SE: $7970. > MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) > : Your figures seem just a tad inflated... The prices here at Dartmouth (an AUC school but bottom level street prices are not much more from what I've seen in the papers and mags) are more like MAC SE: $2750. (SE with hard disk & ImageWriterII). MAC Plus: $2480. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC & ImageWriterII) Mac Plus: $1825. (Includes a supercheap SCSI hard disk and no printer as there are many scattered around campus as well as numerous public laserwriters) And the Mac you'll get for $1825 will be much more powerful and useful than the PC-clone you'll get for $1650.
lphung@ihuxv.ATT.COM (Phung) (10/21/87)
In article <457@aucs.UUCP>, paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: > A Mac SE with 20Meg hard disk lists at $6150. Of > course, they'll need a printer as well: another $1045. And they'll need > a printer cable: another $50. After adding tax, the final results are: > > PC-clone: $1650. > MAC SE: $7970. ^^^^ I agree that the prices for the Macs are considerably higher than those for the PC clones. But not everyone pays LIST price for the Macs. I've got my Mac SE system (which includes dual floppies, an ImageWriter II, and a Jasmine 20-meg hard drive) last April for about 3100 American dollars. I don't think anyone (except big corporations, etc., maybe) would pay $7970 for a comparable Mac SE.
isle@dartvax.UUCP (Ken Hancock) (10/22/87)
In article <457@aucs.UUCP> paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: >For most students, $1500 >is quite affordable. Then I tell them how much an equivalent Macintosh >system would cost. A Mac SE with 20Meg hard disk lists at $6150. Of >course, they'll need a printer as well: another $1045. And they'll need >a printer cable: another $50. After adding tax, the final results are: > > PC-clone: $1650. > MAC SE: $7970. > MAC Plus: $7518. (Inlude's Apple's HD20SC) > $7970? Apple ups the price that much for Canada??? Our student price for a MacSE with 20meg is $2199 without keyboard. As for the quality of IBM compatables, put it this way... I can go out and build one in my dorm room one weekend for $500 or so... It's very easy to do...there's not a whole lot of substance to one. Ken -- Ken Hancock UUCP: isle@dartvax BITNET: isle@u2.dartmouth.edu DISCLAIMER: If people weren't so sue-happy, I wouldn't need one!
merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) (10/23/87)
In article <7449@dartvax.UUCP>, Ken Hancock writes: > As for the quality of IBM compatables, put it this way... > I can go out and build one in my dorm room one weekend for $500 or so... > It's very easy to do...there's not a whole lot of substance to one. Ever seen the inside of a Mac? There's even LESS substance to that... "You mean, I payed $2000 for two boards, a disk drive, and a CRT?!?!?" -- "...Showing feelings Peter Merchant (merchant@dartvax.UUCP) of an almost human nature. This will not do."
moriarty@fluke.UUCP (10/29/87)
In article <7455@dartvax.UUCP> merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) writes: >In article <7449@dartvax.UUCP>, Ken Hancock writes: >> As for the quality of IBM compatables, put it this way... >> I can go out and build one in my dorm room one weekend for $500 or so... >> It's very easy to do...there's not a whole lot of substance to one. >Ever seen the inside of a Mac? There's even LESS substance to that... >"You mean, I payed $2000 for two boards, a disk drive, and a CRT?!?!?" AND... a little matter of 64K/128K of ROM code. All sorts of software that drives the Mac interface and allows a slew of Mac applications to conform to the Mac interface. I imagine I could say that "hardware is simply a platform for software to perform on", but that would probably give away my occupation... :-). "He who uses an 8088 will be reincarnated as one." Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer INTERNET: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM Manual UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, hplsla, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty CREDO: You gotta be Cruel to be Kind... <*> DISCLAIMER: Do what you want with me, but leave my employers alone! <*>