paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) (10/18/87)
Just to clear up some confusion about my earlier posting on Mac prices
in Canada, the prices I quoted are from Apple Canada's official price
list. The $6150 for 20Meg Mac SE is the price for such a configuration
in Canada in CANADIAN dollars. If my next door neighbour wanted to buy
his kid a 20Meg Mac SE with IW II printer, it would cost him $7960 including
tax. If he could bargin good, he might get 10% knocked off of that, but
our local Apple dealer doesn't do that very often. I got 29% off, but
I threatened to go elsewhere and for certain reasons he wanted my business
(I work at the local University).
Some people have mentioned that Apple offers very good educational discounts
and that is true. Unfortunately, not everyone works at an educational
institution. And furthermore, the educational pricing only applies to
university bought Macintoshes. In other words, if a prof wanted to buy
a Mac with his own money (not research funds), it would cost him the list
price minus our dealer's generous 10% educator's discount.
Even with Apple's 40% discount, it is still overpriced and makes it difficult
to convince the Administration that a $3800 20Meg MAC SE is a cost effective
alternative to $1300 20Meg PC clone. We have only this year been able to
establish a 12-station Maclab. Compare this to our proliferation of PC's:
a 40-station and 15-station labs, as well as PC's in most offices.
Would Apple care to comment?
Paul H. Steele USENET: {uunet|watmath|utai|garfield}!dalcs!aucs!Paul
Acadia University BITNET: Paul@Acadia
Wolfville, NS
CANADA B0P 1X0 (902) 542-2201x587simon@alberta.UUCP (Simon Tortike) (10/19/87)
In article <459@aucs.UUCP>, paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: > Some people have mentioned that Apple offers very good educational discounts > and that is true. Unfortunately, not everyone works at an educational > institution. And furthermore, the educational pricing only applies to > university bought Macintoshes. In other words, if a prof wanted to buy > a Mac with his own money (not research funds), it would cost him the list ^^^^ > price minus our dealer's generous 10% educator's discount. ^^^^^ Here at the U of Alberta, a member of the Apple University Consortium, full time students and staff may buy Apple products with their own money at the AUC price. There are restrictions on the quantities: one Mac only, which may be traded in or upgraded. One cannot sell it without telling the microstore first. Purchases on univ. indents have no restrictions on the quantity, as the U is buying them then. Only research accounts are entitled to federal sales tax (FST) exemptions. A good rule of thumb is the US list price stated as Canadian dollars. E.g. something listing for US$1800.00 would be approx. C$1800.00 after the AUC discount, but FST included. This represents the disparity between US and Can. currencies, around 30%. ------------------- W. Simon Tortike Dept Min, Met & UUCP: {ubc-vision,ihnp4,mnetor}!alberta!simon Petroleum Engg BITNET: stortike@ualtavm Univ. of Alberta AGT: (403) 432-3338 Edmonton, AB Canada T6G 2G6
peter@aucs.UUCP (Peter Steele) (10/20/87)
in article <201@pembina.UUCP>, simon@alberta.UUCP (Simon Tortike) says: > > Here at the U of Alberta, a member of the Apple University Consortium, full ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Unfortunately, not all of us are members of this consortium. Can anyone join? And that still doesn't address the problem of anyone off the street wanting to buy a Mac, that is someone not affiliated with the local University (and some towns don't even have "local" universities). I agree with Paul (the original poster): Mac prices are out of line with other companies' products. I would really like to see a growth of Macs, but when PCs are so much cheaper, it won't happen. Peter Steele Acadia Univ. Wolfville NS Canada B0P1X0 (902)542-2201x121 BITNET:{uunet|watmath|utai|garfield}dalcs!aucs!Peter UUCP:Peter@Acadia
mcdonald@sfu_cmpt.cs.sfu (10/21/87)
Yes, Mac prices are way out of line. Simon Fraser University IS a member
of the Apple Consortium, and without that fact there is no way I could
have afforded to buy my Mac. I wouldn't have given it a second thought,
at the regular prices. This is very unfortunate, because it is a wonderful
machine which could blow away any competition, if Apple priced it more
reasonably.
Unfortunately, Apple seems to be ignoring long term gains (i.e. domination
of the micro market) for higher profits in the short term. This is silly,
as if you hit IBM over the head three or four thousand times with a blunt,
heavy object, they will wake up to the fact that something is amiss, and
respond to it in their typical clumsy, lumbering fashion--which they have
started to do already. Apple still has an opportunity to corner the market,
but not for much longer. Who knows, five years from now i might (shudder)
end up buying an IBM system.
Ken McDonald
{...!ubc-vision!sfu-cmpt!mcdonald}drc@dbase.UUCP (Dennis Cohen) (10/23/87)
In article <460@aucs.UUCP>, peter@aucs.UUCP (Peter Steele) writes: (lead-in material deleted) > > I agree with Paul (the original poster): Mac prices are out of line > with other companies' products. I would really like to see a growth > of Macs, but when PCs are so much cheaper, it won't happen. > PCs aren't so much cheaper. IBM products cost as much or more for comparable configurations. The clones cost less and, while they are of benefit to the buying public, do not have the R&D costs associated with Apple and Big Blue. It is a *LOT* cheaper to put out a "knock-off" product than to develop something in-house. This is something that I have yet to see discussed on this net and it really bothers me a little that otherwise intelligent people do not seem to understand this basic fact. The same holds true in software. This is one of the reasons that companies like Apple and Lotus have "look and feel" suits. If I were to want to (and I definitely don't), I could produce a look-alike/ work-alike for many of the products currently on the market for a fraction of the price -- I don't have to design an interface, I don't have to worry about what features to implement or how they work (from the user perspective), that's all done for me by the people and companies who made the big investment up front. ** FLAME OFF ** Dennis Cohen Ashton-Tate Glendale Development Center dBASE Mac Development Team -------------------------- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed above are MINE! I don't know what opinions, if any, my employer might have on any issue under discussion.
paul@aucs.UUCP (10/25/87)
In article <249@dbase.UUCP> drc@dbase.UUCP (Dennis Cohen) writes: >PCs aren't so much cheaper. IBM products cost as much or more for comparable >configurations. The clones cost less and, while they are of benefit to the >buying public, do not have the R&D costs associated with Apple and Big Blue. >It is a *LOT* cheaper to put out a "knock-off" product ... While I agree with Mr. Cohen in principle, I still strongly feel that the price for Macintoshes in Canada is ridiculously high. If Apple can offer educational institutions a 40% discount (or more), they surely can lower the basic price of a Mac and offer less of a educational discount. I suspect that very few Macs are sold at the list price, so why not bring it down to a level where the ordinary end-user can afford one? At $6150 Cdn, the MAC SE is WAY overpriced. If they were to offer it for half that amount, some of us regular end-users could afford one. It is difficult to say if halving the price would double the sales, but it sure would increase significantly. Apple would make less of a profit per machine, but you can bet they would still be making a profit while increasing their user-base. I know of no one (other than myself) who has purchased a Mac with other than research funds. I tell them the price, and they go buy a PC-clone (IBM's prices are too high as well). Apple has done a good job in the macintosh design, but its not worth what they're asking. I wonder if Apple will ever consider their R&D costs paid for and lower the price to a more realistic level. If the high-price is to make up for the development costs, why is Apple selling Hypercard for virtually nothing? Mr. Cohen is the only person who disagreed with my original posting. Most people were shocked at the prices for Macintoshes in Canada. Its amazing what an imaginary line between two countries can do to prices. Paul H. Steele USENET: {uunet|watmath|utai|garfield}!dalcs!aucs!Paul Acadia University BITNET: Paul@Acadia Wolfville, NS CANADA B0P 1X0 (902) 542-2201x587
peter@aucs.UUCP (10/25/87)
in article <476@aucs.UUCP>, paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) says: > > In article <249@dbase.UUCP> drc@dbase.UUCP (Dennis Cohen) writes: >>PCs aren't so much cheaper. IBM products cost as much or more for comparable >>configurations. The clones cost less and, while they are of benefit to the >>buying public, do not have the R&D costs associated with Apple and Big Blue. >>It is a *LOT* cheaper to put out a "knock-off" product ... > Of course Mr. Cohen is correct, but it seems to me that lowering the price of the Mac would pay for the R&D with increased sales. Look at Borland and their products. I'm sure they spend a *LOT* of time and effort into their work but still sell them at a very reasonable price. And look at HyperCard. That must have taken a tremendous development effort, but they're practically giving it away. Why? Probably as a gimmick to sell more Macs. I bet that lowering the price of a Mac would sell more Macs than bundling HyperCard with them. HyperCard is good, but the Mac is prohibitively expensive for many many people. I own one, but none of my friends do, unless they happen to be profs with big research grants... Complain, complain, complain.... Peter Steele Acadia Univ. Wolfville NS Canada B0P1X0 (902)542-2201x121 UUCP:{uunet|watmath|utai|garfield}dalcs!aucs!Peter BITNET:Peter@Acadia
B5U@PSUVMA.BITNET (George A. Brownfield) (10/26/87)
I have a question to those flaming Apple for the high price of Macs in Canada,
where the going (quoted on the net) price is Cdn$6150 (the last I saw, the
exchange rate was roughly Cdn$1=$.70), giving a price of $4300 for an SE! In
the US, this would buy a Mac II. Now, my question is this: can someone find out
if this is an act by Apple, in which case they deserve the flames, or is caused
by some sort of import quota, tax, fine, levy, etc. by one of the governments
involved in this, in which case some people should get off Apple's back.
BTW, I am not involved with Apple except as a satisfied customer of a Mac +.
-------
George A. Brownfield B5U @ PSUVMA (preferred)
Aerospace Engineering Major B5U @ PSUVM
The Pennsylvania State University GAB @ PSUECL
BITNET: B5U @ PSUVM, GAB @ PSUECL
UUCP: {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!psuvax1!psuvma.bitnet!b5u
"We don't get laid much, but we're building your future."
- engineering majors, according to Robin Willi own cie-Sborton@net1.ucsd.edu (Chris Borton) (10/26/87)
In article <477@aucs.UUCP> peter@aucs.UUCP (Peter Steele) writes: > >[...] And look at HyperCard. That >must have taken a tremendous development effort, but they're practically >giving it away. Why? Probably as a gimmick to sell more Macs. I bet that In the 'Conversation with Bill Atkinson' at the front of Goodman's book on HyperCard it is revealed that Bill went to Apple with his great idea and told them if they didn't bundle it, he'd leave and give it away himself. >HyperCard is good, but the Mac is prohibitively expensive for >many many people. I own one, but none of my friends do, unless they happen >to be profs with big research grants... I was in West Germany last year, where the Mac world underwent some severe changes. In Fall '86 the retail price of a Mac Plus was DM 10.000, roughly US$5000 at the exchange rate then. This was obviously extremely prohibitive, and the only market they had penetrated effectively was DeskTop Publishing. In March, with the advent of the SE and II, Apple Deutschland took the opportunity to reflect newer prices and exchange rate and lowered the Plus retail to DM6400. The university price is DM4200. By the time I left in July, two big Apple houses were competing with retail prices around DM4000. These prices are finally in the sensible range, given the current exchange rate, transport, and 14% tax. But it took awhile... At the Apple Deutschland Developer Conference in June they announced that they had sold record numbers of Macs since March. Gee, I wonder why :-). Apple outside of the U.S. is gaining, but it still has a ways to go, I think. -cbb Chris "Johann" Borton, UC San Diego ...!sdcsvax!net1!borton borton@net1.ucsd.edu "Letztes Jahr in Deutschland, noch ein Jahr hier, en dan naar het Nederland!
psych@watdcsu.UUCP (10/26/87)
Just so people will have a perspective of what computer prices are in Canada
I offer the following. I consider these 2 machines to be pretty much
identical in capabilities.
Mac Se IBM PS/2 Model 50
Discount
Price $3,997 $3,929
Suggested
Retail $6150 $6063
Memory 1 Meg 1 Meg
Processor 68000 80286
Floppy 1 3.5" 1 3.5"
Hard Drive 20 Meg Internal 20 meg Internal
Monitor 9" BitMap 12" monochrome
with MCGA
Software System & Finder whatever DOS 3.3
HyperCard
The logical conclusion is that you take a quality machine from any of the
biggies and you pay thru the nose.
Personally, I would stay clear of most of the cheap clones. Our experience
in the department has not been that great. Everything is fine until something
breaks then you either can't get it fixed (due usually to bankrupcies) or
you have to pay someone who knows little about the machine to figure it
out and fixit (for a hefty sum of course).
Richard Crispin
Dept. of Psychology
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ont.
Canada N2L 3G1
(519)885-1211 ext 2879peter@aucs.UUCP (Peter Steele) (10/26/87)
in article <23372B5U@PSUVMA>, B5U@PSUVMA.BITNET (George A. Brownfield) says: > > I have a question to those flaming Apple for the high price of Macs in Canada, > where the going (quoted on the net) price is Cdn$6150 (the last I saw, the > exchange rate was roughly Cdn$1=$.70), giving a price of $4300 for an SE! In > the US this would buy a Mac II. Now, my question is this: can someone find out > if this is an act by Apple,in which case they deserve the flames, or is caused > by some sort of import quota, tax, fine, levy, etc. by one of the governments I'd also like to know the answer to this. For some reason, Apple's prices seem more inflated than other companies here. Why? We can get an Atari for about a quarter of a Mac... So, $4300 will buy a Mac II in the States will it? Guess what one costs up here in Canada? A friend of mine priced a configuration suitable for running Unix on a Mac II, and the price the dealer gave him was over $20,000!!!! The educational price was over $11,000. (all Cdn $'s of course) Needless to say, there won't be many of us Mac enthusiasts (me for one) who will ever own a Mac II, as much as I'd love to have one (I have an SE now with an internal 20 and that cost me more than I like to think about). Peter Steele Acadia Univ. Wolfville NS Canada B0P1X0 (902)542-2201x121 UUCP:{uunet|watmath|utai|garfield}dalcs!aucs!Peter BITNET:Peter@Acadia
peter@aucs.UUCP (10/28/87)
in article <57900011@sfu_cmpt>, mcdonald@sfu_cmpt.cs.sfu says:
<
< Yes, Mac prices are way out of line. Simon Fraser University IS a member
< of the Apple Consortium, and without that fact there is no way I could
< have afforded to buy my Mac.
< ...
< Apple still has an opportunity to corner the market,
< but not for much longer. Who knows, five years from now i might (shudder)
< end up buying an IBM system.
<
Frightening isn't it?jwhitnel@csi.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) (10/29/87)
In article <57900011@sfu_cmpt> mcdonald@sfu_cmpt.cs.sfu writes: > >Unfortunately, Apple seems to be ignoring long term gains (i.e. domination >of the micro market) for higher profits in the short term. This is silly, >as if you hit IBM over the head three or four thousand times with a blunt, >heavy object, they will wake up to the fact that something is amiss, and >respond to it in their typical clumsy, lumbering fashion--which they have >started to do already. Apple still has an opportunity to corner the market, >but not for much longer. Who knows, five years from now i might (shudder) >end up buying an IBM system. An friend of mine had an intesting counter to this argument. There were three companies with 6502 machines: Apple with their Apple //, Commodore with the C64 and Atari with the 800. Commodore and Atari got into a price cutting war with each other so that now you can get either for about $80. Apple went right on their way selling machines for > $1000. Who is doing well now? I'll give you a hint, it's not Atari and it's not Commodore. As far as IBM is concerned in will be 3 to 4 years before they are where Apple is today, i.e. a windowed multi-tasking OS with lots of applications that are native to it. And Apple has several advantages. First is time. 3 to 4 years is a long time in this bussiness (the IBM PC was introduced only 5 years ago). Second is they don't have several products competing with each other. IBM will have DOS and OS/2, leading to mass confusion among it's customers. Apple may loose some cusotmers in the low end of the market, but it is in very good shape to compete at the high end. I'm putting my money on Apple. Jerry Whitnell It's a damn poor mind that can only Communication Solutions, Inc. think of one way to spell a word. -- Andrew Jackson > >Ken McDonald >{...!ubc-vision!sfu-cmpt!mcdonald}
roberts@cognos.uucp (Robert Stanley) (10/29/87)
In article <476@aucs.UUCP> paul@aucs.UUCP (Paul Steele) writes: > ... I still strongly feel that the price for Macintoshes in Canada is >ridiculously high. If Apple can offer educational institutions a 40% >discount (or more), they surely can lower the basic price of a Mac and >offer less of a educational discount. I suspect that very few Macs are >sold at the list price, so why not bring it down to a level where the >ordinary end-user can afford one? At $6150 Cdn, the MAC SE is WAY overpriced. The problem is that Apple Canada is a Canadian registered company run with what appears to be a significant degree of autonomy. I have no knowledge of its corporate registration or ownership, but I have been a serious recipient of practices that differ from those practiced by Apple (the US master company). Certainly, Apple Canada sets not only the prices of Apple products in Canada, but also a number of policies. For instance, when I wished to register as an Apple developer, I was informed that I would have to go through Apple Canada, who eventually turned out to have no interest in registering me. I circumvented this entire problem by using a US registered company of convenience, but it certainly left a sour taste for me. However, Apple Canada has the *right* to make its own decisions, and I simply failed to convince them of the merit of my plans. [However, for me to buy the HyperCard reference manual I have to be a registered member of APDA which includes signing APDA's equivalent of the Official Secret's Act promising that I won't send anything I get from them to any of a variety of (explicitly named) countries. This is not as easy as it sounds - Canada is a foreign country to Apple] Another example was in the Lisa for Mac Plus swap program, where Apple Canada set their own price and determined the date limits. Similarly, Canadian Apple dealers are registered with Apple Canada, and are expected to go through them for everything, although they do have direct access to Applelink. By the way, Apple Canada is interesting to watch here in Ottawa, because they have recently started a direct sales to Government program, which appears to be putting them in direct competition with their own dealers. Mind you, I am not an Apple dealer myself, so this may not actually be the case at all, but it sure looks like it. Perhaps someone from Apple *Canada* would care to comment on the net, though something tells me that nobody from there is reading this net.... In summary, Apple Canada has the exclusive right to market Apple products in Canada, and has a significant amount of autonomy with respect to policies and prices. I am sure that they also have some responsibilities, such as ensuring DOC compliance and such. If we want better prices in Canada, we must lobby Apple Canada, or tackle our local dealers. I recently got a quantity-1 price quote for a LaserWriter Plus of under $8,000 CDN, to myself as a private individual. This is only a couple of hundred more than the cheapest Boston price I could find, currency converted, shipped, imported, and duty + tax paid. The Boston-bought product would technically require DOC certification (a little red and white with a maple-leaf sticker) and Apple Canada would not agree to maintain it; they would refuse AppleCare (at least, so my dealer suggested). Take your dealer to lunch, it's probably the best bet. Better still, introduce him/her to a really nifty piece of Mac software.... -- Robert Stanley Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 Voice: (613) 738-1440 (Research: there are 2!) 3755 Riverside Drive FAX: (613) 738-0002 Compuserve: 76174,3024 Ottawa, Ontario uucp: decvax!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!roberts CANADA K1G 3Z4
gardner@prls.UUCP (Robert Gardner) (10/31/87)
In article <1275@csib.csi.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: >Apple may loose some cusotmers in the low end of the market, but it is >in very good shape to compete at the high end. I'm putting my money on Apple. > Oh, well, so much for "the rest of us". I've always felt that the real potential of the Mac was in "bringing computing to the masses" (a strange phrase). But if the masses can't afford it... Any guesses on which machine (with enough power to be interesting -- this eliminates the entire Apple II series) will be or is dominant in the home market? Will Apple ever admit the death of the Apple II and release a Mac priced for the home/education market? Robert Gardner
tomwest@utgpu.UUCP (11/04/87)
In article <57900011@sfu_cmpt> mcdonald@sfu_cmpt.cs.sfu writes: > >Unfortunately, Apple seems to be ignoring long term gains (i.e. domination >of the micro market) for higher profits in the short term. This is silly, >as if you hit IBM over the head three or four thousand times with a blunt, >heavy object, they will wake up to the fact that something is amiss, and >respond to it in their typical clumsy, lumbering fashion--which they have >started to do already. Apple still has an opportunity to corner the market, >but not for much longer. Who knows, five years from now i might (shudder) >end up buying an IBM system. You should note that in a few years, you will *not* be buying an IBM system, but an IBM *clone*. This is an extremely important distinction. Anybody who has compared actual IBM equipment prices and Apple prices will realize that Apple is by no means out of line. If you want an Mac for *clone* prices, fine. Just don't expect any more than clone quality and no more than the same innovations from Apple than you get from any clone company. I know Macs are expensive (I'm saving for one now). But you will never, ever get a company that has spent that much money on technical innovation and risk (Anybody see any company clone a failure, the clone companies aren't taking the risk of producing a computer nobody wants) to price at the clone level. At least not one that is going to be a major contender in the long run. -- Tom West BITNET: tomwest@utorgpu.bitnet, tomwest@gpu.utcs.utoronto Internet: tomwest@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu UUCP: tomwest@utgpu utzoo, yetti, harpo, mnetor \ cbosgd, deepthot, utoronto - !utgpu!tomwest ihnp4, lsuc, sfmin, vnr-vpa /
daveb@geac.UUCP (11/05/87)
In article <7084@prls.UUCP> gardner@prls.UUCP (Robert Gardner) writes: >Oh, well, so much for "the rest of us". I've always felt that the real >potential of the Mac was in "bringing computing to the masses" (a strange >phrase). But if the masses can't afford it... On the other hand, a hardware-oriented friend (Ashok Patel) characterized it as: 1) 80% of what it should be for "the rest of us" 2) A computer for yuppies. I tend to agree, especially to #1. --dave (I'm saving my money for a Mac II: does this make me a yuppie?) c-b -- David Collier-Brown. {mnetor|yetti|utgpu}!geac!daveb Geac Computers International Inc., | Computer Science loses its 350 Steelcase Road,Markham, Ontario, | memory (if not its mind) CANADA, L3R 1B3 (416) 475-0525 x3279 | every 6 months.
dave@onfcanim.UUCP (11/05/87)
There is an interview with John Sculley in the current issue of "Inc." which says something about this topic. (The context of the discussion is that Sculley is discussing how he tried to recover from the recession in the personal computer market in 1985). He says: "Early on, I thought we should go for maximum growth to reach as large a critical mass as we could, and worry about profit margins after we established our dominant position in the personal-computer industry. But what I soon realized was that the business market was a better one for us than the home market, because in a business market we had a chance of getting the high gross margins that would pay for R&D. That business market was considered very, very high-risk waters for Apple, because up to that point we had not done it successfully. But on the other hand, it was an even higher risk to keep going after the consumer market."
gardner@prls.UUCP (Robert Gardner) (11/06/87)
In article <1987Nov4.101028.15426@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu> tomwest@gpu.utcs.UUCP (Tom West) writes: > > You should note that in a few years, you will *not* be buying an IBM system, >but an IBM *clone*. This is an extremely important distinction. Anybody who >has compared actual IBM equipment prices and Apple prices will realize that >Apple is by no means out of line. If you want an Mac for *clone* prices, fine. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It looks like the Mac world will never see a Mac clone. I find this unfortunate because I,too, feel it is in Apple's best interests to try for market penetration. Since Apple seems to have given up on the low-end Mac market (or at least refused to let it destroy the Apple II -- as if it weren't dead already), I think it would be great if Apple were to license the ROMs to someone like Atari (or at least parts of, or the older ROMs), and let them establish the Mac interface in the low-end market for them. You have to admit that one of the big reasons for Apple's success with the Mac has come through low-end purchasers who smuggled Macs to work or were able to convince their bosses they needed a Mac. Robert Gardner
gardner@prls.UUCP (Robert Gardner) (11/09/87)
In article <15456@onfcanim.UUCP> dave@onfcanim.UUCP (Dave Martindale) writes: >There is an interview with John Sculley in the current issue of "Inc." > That business market was > considered very, very high-risk waters for Apple, because > up to that point we had not done it successfully. But on > the other hand, it was an even higher risk to keep going > after the consumer market." This explains a LOT! So, sorry for all those messages I posted hoping Apple would pay attention to the home/consumer market. I see they were a waste of time. Any suggestions on where to turn for the "ultimate" consumer computer? I realize this takes a company with enough revenue to handle the R&D costs -- but it also takes a company with a commitment to succeed there! Robert Gardner
dennisg@pwcs.StPaul.GOV (Dennis Grittner) (11/13/87)
In article <7246@prls.UUCP> gardner@prls.UUCP (Robert Gardner) writes: >In article <1987Nov4.101028.15426@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu> tomwest@gpu.utcs.UUCP (Tom West) writes: >> >> You should note that in a few years, you will *not* be buying an IBM system, >>but an IBM *clone*. This is an extremely important distinction. Anybody who >>has compared actual IBM equipment prices and Apple prices will realize that >>Apple is by no means out of line. If you want an Mac for *clone* prices, fine. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >It looks like the Mac world will never see a Mac clone. I find this >unfortunate because I,too, feel it is in Apple's best interests to try for >market penetration. Well, not to be the one to mention it... but I read this rumor that Tandy ( of all people ) were working on building a Mac clone. Sure would be interesting ( price - wise ) if they were in fact working on one. I really can't remember where I read this - but I'm sure that one of the many computer rags printed the rumor - I read a lot of them. Now, I don't wish Apple bad - but I would like to see a little more competition in the Mac market. Has everybody noticed how CHEAP winchesters are for PC's?? I wouldnm't mind if some of that 'cheap' filtered it's way to the Mac. I can't see paying over $1K dollars for a SLOW 20 meg drive - or about $1500 for a REALLY SLOW SCSI tape drive. I love the computer that Apple made ( Mac ) , I'm just not crazy about the very non-competitive pricing?? -- Dennis Grittner City of Saint Paul, Minnesota (612) 298-4402 Room 700, 25 W. 4th St. 55102 "Let's just put Ollie, Ronnie, and the rest in jail!"
jwhitnel@csi.UUCP (11/16/87)
In article <3665@pwcs.StPaul.GOV> dennisg@pwcs.StPaul.GOV (Dennis Grittner) writes: | |Now, I don't wish Apple bad - but I would like to see a little |more competition in the Mac market. Has everybody noticed how |CHEAP winchesters are for PC's?? I wouldnm't mind if some of that |'cheap' filtered it's way to the Mac. I can't see paying over $1K |dollars for a SLOW 20 meg drive - or about $1500 for a REALLY |SLOW SCSI tape drive. Comparing drive prices between the Mac and the PC is really comparing apples and oranges (sorry :-)). For the PC, all you have to buy is the drive itself, while for the Mac (at least pre-SE/II), you have to buy not only the drive, but also a SCSI controller, a power supply and an enclosure. So the cost is obviously going to be higher. With the SE and the II supporting internal drives, prices should drop for these, but don't expect at the PC levels for quite some time. I don't know where you're getting your prices, but the average 20 mb drive from a third party vendor is in the $600 range. For over a thousand I got a DataFrame 40XP which is definitly NOT slow :-). My plain Mac with the 40XP is faster then my 386 here at work! | |I love the computer that Apple made ( Mac ) , I'm just not crazy |about the very non-competitive pricing?? |-- |Dennis Grittner City of Saint Paul, Minnesota Jerry Whitnell Lizzi Borden took an axe Communication Solutions, Inc. And plunged it deep into the VAX; Don't you envy people who Do all the things You want to do?
martin@lakesys.UUCP (11/18/87)
Perhaps you might have overlooked the Magic Sac for the Atari ST. It runs Mac software 20% faster than on the Mac....:-) (the clock's a little faster....) The large majority of Mac programs seem to run without any trouble. Marty -- | Martin Wiedmeyer - Lake Systems, Milwaukee, WI | | UUCP: {ihnp4,uwvax}!uwmcsd1!lakesys!martin | | Disclaimer: "I take the heat for my own (mis)statements!" |
straka@ihlpf.UUCP (11/18/87)
In article <1294@csib.csi.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: >In article <3665@pwcs.StPaul.GOV> dennisg@pwcs.StPaul.GOV (Dennis Grittner) writes: >|more competition in the Mac market. Has everybody noticed how >|CHEAP winchesters are for PC's?? I wouldnm't mind if some of that >and oranges (sorry :-)). For the PC, all you have to buy is the drive itself, >while for the Mac (at least pre-SE/II), you have to buy not only the drive, >but also a SCSI controller, a power supply and an enclosure. So the cost Small point, but of course the PC world also has to buy a disk controller. However, with a million or two of them in the market, manufacturing costs and competition have reduced the controller prices to 1/2 that of mac scsi controllers (plus the SCSI controller is a fancier beast, anyway). The real price (not cost) kickers are: 1) Case and PS adder: ~$100 - $150 2) Cabling adder: ~$ 30 - $ 50 3) Support adder: ~$ 50 - $500 (depending on vendor) remember, basically NO support for PC drives. 4) Lack of major competition adder: ~$ ? - $ ? ------------ Total: $180 - $700 + ? The typical PC 20 meg HD (with controller and cable) via mail order can be found (assuming rock-bottom prices) for just under $300. I just saw an ad in (the back of) MacWeek for a Rodime HD for $499. If you add up the $300 basic cost and the low $180, you get $480. Summary: The above factors are costing Mac users a fair amount of money. However, the prices of the low-support, mail-order outfits ARE approaching the same sort of low-profit competitiveness of the PC world. But DON'T start looking for prices much less than $500 for a stand-alone Mac HD. The economics just aren't there. At least, not just yet. -- Rich Straka ihnp4!ihlpf!straka Advice for the day: "MSDOS - just say no."
lsr@apple.UUCP (Larry Rosenstein) (11/18/87)
In article <289@lakesys.UUCP> martin@lakesys.UUCP (Martin Wiedmeyer) writes: > > Perhaps you might have overlooked the Magic Sac for the Atari ST. It >runs Mac software 20% faster than on the Mac....:-) (the clock's a little >faster....) The Atari is probably not faster than a Mac SE (or a Mac II for that matter). In the older Mac models, the video circuitry stole cycles from the CPU, when running out of RAM. The Mac SE has different video, and is 20% faster than a Mac Plus -- the same as the ST. (The clock speeds of the machines are essentially the same.) Also, the Magic Sac (I believe) requires 64K ROMs. This means you can't run System 4.2, Multifinder, Hypercard, and any other program that requires the later ROMs. -- Larry Rosenstein Object Specialist Apple Computer AppleLink: Rosenstein1 UUCP: {sun, voder, nsc, mtxinu, dual}!apple!lsr CSNET: lsr@Apple.com
hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Robert Joseph Hammen) (11/18/87)
In article <289@lakesys.UUCP> martin@lakesys.UUCP (Martin Wiedmeyer) writes: > > Perhaps you might have overlooked the Magic Sac for the Atari ST. It >runs Mac software 20% faster than on the Mac....:-) (the clock's a little >faster....) > > The large majority of Mac programs seem to run without any trouble. The Magic Sac works with the 64K ROMs, and even Apple has announced that they will no longer support the 64K ROMs anymore - most new commercial applications that I have seen require the 128K ROMs. Also, if I am not mistaken, there is no way to interchange disks between the two machines (read Mac disks in an ST or read ST disks in a Mac), this really isn't a viable alternative. I was also under the impression that the speed difference was related to the Mac's handling of the video display (a problem which the SE and some third party RAM upgrades, most notably the MonsterMac, don't have). > Marty ========================================================================= Robert Hammen Computer Applications, Inc. hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu Delphi: HAMMEN GEnie: R.Hammen CI$: 70701,2104
kraut@ut-ngp.UUCP (11/25/87)
ad in Macweek of Nov 17, page 45, has an ad for a Rodime-20 MByte SCSI drive for $499 from MacProducts here in Austin 1-800-MAC-DISK. I also saw their ad in APDAlog for 1 Meg SIMs for $199 - no info on speed given. Disclaimer: no connection to MacProducts; I don't even like them, but their prices are remarkable. -- werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (prefered address) kraut@ut-ngp.uucp (if you must)
kraut@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (11/27/87)
In article <6923@ut-ngp.UUCP>, kraut@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) writes: > ad in Macweek of Nov 17, page 45, has an ad for a Rodime-20 MByte SCSI drive > for $499 from MacProducts here in Austin 1-800-MAC-DISK. I knew it, I knew it, I knew it, I never trusted MacMemory .... I have since learnt that the Rodime has built-in troubles .... if you hook more than one Rodime together you get several confused Rodimes that don't know to understand different SCSI-addresses ... also the R. doesn't have hardware head-parking ... this is second-hand from a very Mac-active friend; I understand that they take the drives back if you complain soon enough, but I feel sorry for the folks that discover the problem a couple of months/weeks down the road ... if a deal sounds too good, it probably is .... -- werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (prefered address) kraut@ut-ngp.uucp (if you must)
jwhitnel@csi.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) (11/30/87)
In article <6923@ut-ngp.UUCP> kraut@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) writes: >I also saw their ad in APDAlog for 1 Meg SIMs for $199 - no info on speed given. This is already an old price, they were up to $229 (I think?) and quoting 3-week delivery (as of Nov 23). How are they (MacProducts) on mail order? >werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (prefered address) Jerry Whitnell Lizzi Borden took an axe Communication Solutions, Inc. And plunged it deep into the VAX; Don't you envy people who Do all the things You want to do?