ravi@mcnc.UUCP (01/31/87)
In article <2326@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> korn@eris.BERKELEY.EDU (Peter "Arrgh" Korn) writes: >> >>Also, if you like Mac software, you can get a cartridge relatively >>cheaply that plugs into the st case and presto -- color Mac. >>Apparently, the ST actually runs many Mac program faster than the >>Mac... >I hate to continue this discussion, but the above assertion is an outright >LIE! > >Some friends of mine who own Atari ST machines came over to my house >one evening with their STs and their Mac-Cartridges, and we systematically >tried my entire software collection (over 100 programs, public domain >and otherwise) . LESS THAT 5% OF IT RAN! > Let's not get carried away Peter.. perhaps you guys were less than careful with the testing. I've had considerable success with the Sac, certainly far greater than 5%. The main thing is to have patience, and try the current *and* previous revs of the driver software, and also finders 4.1 and 1.1g, and *not* 5.x. After some initial trial and error, I've gotten almost everything I needed to run, and I know of others who use many other programs that are important in the Mac context (one guy actually does his user group newsletter with RSG!) >These friends, who had been chiding me continuously for the past few >weeks that their ataris "would be a mac for $100's less, and faster too" >quickly changed their tune after actually testing the product. Too bad, they missed out on a goodie.. perhaps you can tell them about this, and I'd be glad to correspond if they have questions. >Unfortunately, I've noticed this phenomenon occuring a lot more in people >who are Atari fanatics. I trust that this is just a statistical anomoly... Hmm.. I smell the bl**d of an Amigaian.. > But don't be fooled into thinking that you can get a mac > w/out getting a mac... Boy, I'm sure glad I got fooled! >Peter "try it before you preach about it" Korn Perhaps that ought to be 'try it carefully with an open mind' ? >----- >Peter "Arrgh" Korn -ravi
engst@batcomputer.UUCP (11/21/87)
In article <3548@uwmcsd1.UUCP> hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Robert Hammen) writes: >In article <289@lakesys.UUCP> martin@lakesys.UUCP (Martin Wiedmeyer) writes: >> >> Perhaps you might have overlooked the Magic Sac for the Atari ST. It >>runs Mac software 20% faster than on the Mac....:-) (the clock's a little >>faster....) >The Magic Sac works with the 64K ROMs, and even Apple has announced that they >will no longer support the 64K ROMs anymore - most new commercial applications >that I have seen require the 128K ROMs. This is true, however, David Small is reportedly working on adding features of the newer ROMS. Also, there is a lot of Mac software which still runs on those poor outdated 64K ROMs. >Also, if I am not mistaken, there is >no way to interchange disks between the two machines (read Mac disks in an ST >or read ST disks in a Mac), this really isn't a viable alternative. Not true. Data Pacific just released the Translator One, a box which plugs into the ST's MIDI ports and somehow modulates the signals coming from the normal ST drive so that the emulator thinks they are coming from an odd Mac drive (I have more trouble with Mac drives on Cornell's public Macs than any other computer system we have percentage-wise, though I heard the C-64 had a similar problem). The only problem is that it only currently allows MFS (though double-sided) disks. Again, Small is working on getting it to support HFS. >I was also >under the impression that the speed difference was related to the Mac's >handling of the video display (a problem which the SE and some third party >RAM upgrades, most notably the MonsterMac, don't have). That wasn't what I heard, but since I don't know I won't comment. >> Marty >Robert Hammen Computer Applications, Inc. hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu In general, I would say that the Magic Sac makes sense for some people, namely those who don't need a Mac exclusively (emulation is never as good), those who are strapped for funds yet want use of some Mac products, and those who want a faster Mac with a bigger screen for less money, despite all the problems with an emulator. It also makes a lot sense for those who already happen to own an ST and can't afford another computer. It certainly will never replace or probably even compete much with a Mac. But it is still a wonderful hack! Adam Engst engst@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu pv9y@cornella.bitnet
dhawk@well.UUCP (David Hawkins) (11/22/87)
In the referenced article, engst@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (Adam C. Engst) wrote: >In article <3548@uwmcsd1.UUCP> hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu.UUCP (Robert Hammen) writes: >>In article <289@lakesys.UUCP> martin@lakesys.UUCP (Martin Wiedmeyer) writes: >>> >>> Perhaps you might have overlooked the Magic Sac for the Atari ST. >>The Magic Sac works with the 64K ROMs, and even Apple has announced that they >>will no longer support the 64K ROMs anymore - most new commercial applications >>that I have seen require the 128K ROMs. The Magic Sac emulates the 128K ROMS, needing just the 64K ROMS to get around the legal end. In other words, Dave can emulate the rest of the stuff as long as he gets the basics from real Mac ROMS. So the Magic Sac does run stuff for the 128K ROMS. There's no need for him to set it up to require the newer ROMS. -- David Hawkins {ptsfa,hplabs,ucbvax}!well!dhawk It is a luxury to be understood. - Ralph Waldo Emerson -
charles@mnetor.UUCP (Charles Benaiah) (11/23/87)
>>The Magic Sac works with the 64K ROMs, and even Apple has announced that they >>will no longer support the 64K ROMs anymore - most new commercial applications >>that I have seen require the 128K ROMs. > Does this mean that the machine has to be opened, and the new ROMs inserted, or are they plugged into some external box? >>Also, if I am not mistaken, there is >>no way to interchange disks between the two machines (read Mac disks in an ST >>or read ST disks in a Mac), this really isn't a viable alternative. > >Not true. Data Pacific just released the Translator One, a box which plugs >into the ST's MIDI ports and somehow modulates the signals coming from the >normal ST drive so that the emulator thinks they are coming from an odd Mac >drive (I have more trouble with Mac drives on Cornell's public Macs than any >other computer system we have percentage-wise, though I heard the C-64 had a >similar problem). The only problem is that it only currently allows MFS >(though double-sided) disks. Again, Small is working on getting it to >support HFS. Will this system (transaltor 1) also work for internal drives, or does this box connect to the MIDI, and to some external drive?
dhawk@well.UUCP (David Hawkins) (11/24/87)
In the referenced article, I wrote: >The Magic Sac emulates the 128K ROMS, needing just the 64K ROMS to get >around the legal end. In other words, Dave can emulate the rest of >the stuff as long as he gets the basics from real Mac ROMS. So the >Magic Sac does run stuff for the 128K ROMS. There's no need for him >to set it up to require the newer ROMS. I was mis-remembering the following: This is what I got from Data Pacific this month: | 128K and 256K ROMS | Many users ask when we will support the newer 128K and 256K ROMs |from Apple. We do not plan to support these ROMs with the MAGIC SAC, |primarily because the code which is contained inside of these ROMs |will be provided by our software. Thus, _there is no advantage in the |use of these ROMs over the 64K ROMs_ with the Magic Sac. | Software Compatibility | . . . general rule of thumb is: If the software is Macintosh II |comptaible, was written to conform to the Apple Macintosh programming |guidelines, and does not access hardware directly, then it is usually |compatible with the MAGIC SAC. ---------------------- So anyway, they're saying in this release that the 128K and 256K ROMs will be covered in software. I would guess that like all future plans that could change. |-) -- David Hawkins {ptsfa,hplabs,ucbvax}!well!dhawk It is a luxury to be understood. - Ralph Waldo Emest po l
tim@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Tim Northrup) (11/24/87)
In answer to some of Charles' questions about the Magic Sac: in article <4340@mnetor.UUCP>, charles@mnetor.UUCP (Charles Benaiah) says: |>The Magic Sac works with the 64K ROMs, and even Apple has announced that they |>will no longer support the 64K ROMs anymore - most new commercial applications |>that I have seen require the 128K ROMs. | | Does this mean that the machine has to be opened, and the new ROMs inserted, | or are they plugged into some external box? The Sac is a plug-in expansion module which pops into the cartridge port on the side of the ST. The box contains slots for the 2 Apple ROMs and a few other components (like a battery powered CLOCK which keeps the correct time even when the system is powered off; very nice). > Will this system (transaltor 1) also work for internal drives, or does this > box connect to the MIDI, and to some external drive? The Translator 1 is said to work with internal as well as external drives. I don't think it connects to the MIDI port however, I think it just goes between the floppy connector on the ST and the floppy drive: the description says something to the effect that internal drive accesses will make some access to the external port FIRST, allowing the Translator 1 do "something". Hope this helps. -- Tim. -- tim@brspyr1.BRS.Com uunet!steinmetz!brspyr1!tim ============================================ Tim "The Enchanter" Northrup
dhawk@well.UUCP (David Hawkins) (11/25/87)
In the referenced article, charles@mnetor.UUCP (Charles Benaiah) wrote: >Does this mean that the machine has to be opened, and the new ROMs inserted, >or are they plugged into some external box? If you are refering to the Magic Sac, it's external cartridge, but doesn't support the 128K ROMs. >>Not true. Data Pacific just released the Translator One, a box which plugs >>into the ST's MIDI ports and somehow modulates the signals coming from the >>normal ST drive so that the emulator thinks they are coming from an odd Mac >>drive >Will this system (transaltor 1) also work for internal drives, or does this >box connect to the MIDI, and to some external drive? It works on the Atari internal drive as well on external ones. -- David Hawkins {ptsfa,hplabs,ucbvax}!well!dhawk It is a luxury to be understood. - Ralph Waldo Emerson -
john@viper.UUCP (11/25/87)
In article <4340@mnetor.UUCP> charles@mnetor.UUCP (Charles Benaiah) asks: > >Will this system (transaltor 1) also work for internal drives, or does this >box connect to the MIDI, and to some external drive? Internal as well as external. Many copy protected programs will now work just fine on the Magic Sac when run on an ST with the Translator-One attatched. (Before anyone asks, yes, you can format a disk on the ST using Translator-One, put some files one it, take it to a Mac, and then read/use the files on the Mac...) --- John Stanley (john@viper.UUCP) Software Consultant - DynaSoft Systems UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!meccts!viper!john
lsr@apple.UUCP (Larry Rosenstein) (11/25/87)
In article <4524@well.UUCP> dhawk@well.UUCP (David Hawkins) writes: >This is what I got from Data Pacific this month: >| 128K and 256K ROMS >| Many users ask when we will support the newer 128K and 256K ROMs >|from Apple. We do not plan to support these ROMs with the MAGIC SAC, >|primarily because the code which is contained inside of these ROMs >|will be provided by our software. Thus, _there is no advantage in the >|use of these ROMs over the 64K ROMs_ with the Magic Sac. It will be interesting to see if they can pull this off (legally). Some of the new routines in the 128K ROMs are extensions of those in the 64K ROMs (eg, the new Resource Manager calls). But others are not extensions (eg, the new Quickdraw calls). It will be difficult to implement all these calls without copying the actual ROMs. The problem is even worse for 256K ROMs, expecially with Color Quickdraw. (I don't see any way they can duplicate all of Color Quickdraw.) Also, some of the changes were performance improvements, especially in the Resource Manager and Quickdraw. Unless they reimplement these routines as well, it is not true that "there is no advantage" in the use of the 128K & 256K ROMs; the actual ROMs will have better performance. -- Larry Rosenstein Object Specialist Apple Computer AppleLink: Rosenstein1 UUCP: {sun, voder, nsc, mtxinu, dual}!apple!lsr CSNET: lsr@Apple.com
moe@athena.mit.edu (Moezeddin K. Karimeddiny) (11/26/87)
From what I read on Genie the Translator One works with HFS and with internal drive. It plugs into the MIDI port and can read, write, format Mac disks.
dsmall@well.UUCP (David Small) (11/26/87)
UUCP> Sender: Reply-To: dsmall@well.UUCP (David Small) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA Keywords: In the referenced article, Dave Hawkins is mentioning our policy towards upgrades of the Magic Sac (64K -> 128K ROMs). Dave is running into a problem that's really based in our trying to explain to users the differences between 64K and 128K ROMS. The big difference is the HFS file system, which is supported for 64K ROMs (and thus the Magic Sac) by "Hard Disk 20", a sort of RAM-based HFS patch from Apple. The other differences, such as zoom boxes, sped-up Quickdraw, rom-resident routines, and so forth found in the 128K ROMs are not supported by the Magic Sac. The HFS support is what is meant by "will be made up in software". We didn't mean to confuse anyone, it's just very difficult to explain HFS, MFS, and HD-20 to a casual user. We haven't done any work on a 128K ROM version Magic Sac; our present efforts are towards IBM PC cards that read/write Mac disks. I hope this clears up any confusion we might have caused. -- Thanks, Dave Dave Small / Engineer / Data Pacific
dsmall@well.UUCP (David Small) (11/26/87)
In the referenced article(s), there's discussion of the Translator One, a peripheral that makes Atari drives Mac compatible. The Translator plugs in "between" the Atari and its disk drive(s). We say this to try to make clear to many people that it is not a mod to the Atari drive, but rather a "translator". As it so happens, it can plug in anywhere on the drive chain, as long as it can sample the read/write signals. Since the internal drive is also on this chain it can work with the internal drive as well; I use one on a 1040 in the office. We use the MIDI ports to send commands to/from the Translator, and can't loop with other MIDI devices. The Translator only turns on when a Mac disk is put in the drive; it is idle otherwise. Hence your drives act like Atari drives until they need to act like Mac drives. We compensate for the varying speed Mac drives by varying our read/write clock rate, rather than tweaking drive speed. I hope this answers some of the Translator questions. -- Thanks, Dave Dave Small / Engineer / I designed the darned thing and look where my summer went... / Data Pacific p.s. I am usually not very successful at replying to netmail; this is solely because I don't know what I'm doing. I've got the necessary manuals and am trying to learn, so if you've sent me mail and had no reply come back, that's why..
kraut@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (11/27/87)
and can someone point me to some good articles describing the limitations of what you can/not do with it? -- werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (prefered address) kraut@ut-ngp.uucp (if you must)
rupp@cod.UUCP (12/04/87)
I don't think so! I saw the Magic Sac at COMDEX, and was told that the current version does not emulate 128K Mac ROMs. Specifically, I was told that Hypercard would not run on the Atari using the Magic Sac. This was repeated by an Amiga/Atari dealer here in San Diego. Also, be advised that you must "obtain" a genuine 64K Macintosh ROM to put into the Magic Sack. Some dealers apparently have them to sell with the Sac. (BTW, I am a Mac owner who is trying to decide whether to upgrade my 512K, 64K ROM Mac, buy an Amiga, buy an Atari, buy a VAX, buy a tablet of paper and a pencil, or ?) Bill ====================================================================== I speak for myself, and not on behalf of any other person or organization .........................How's that, Gary? ======================================================================