gary@fairlight.oz (Gary Evesson) (12/02/87)
In article <11540052@hpsmtc1.HP.COM> dlw@hpsmtc1.HP.COM (David Williams) writes: >It is >high time that Apple got into the support business especially at the prices >charged for their hardware! Just having the operator refer you to your local >dealer is not my idea of support, especially when so many of them are no where >near as technically competent as they should be. If Apple seriously intends to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Never was a truer word spoken. I spent some time doing technical support for a distributor here in Australia, and spent almost half my time sorting out mis-information, mistakes and ignorance perpetrated by salesmen. There are of course exceptions, but the training of computer salesmen leaves alot to be desired. I here someone at Apple saying it is not their responsibility to train salesmen. This is true, but I think there should be some effort made to ensure that a dealer is providing at least some technical expertise. We do exactly that here at Fairlight - the requirements are extremely tough in our case. With all high-tech products, a non-technical buyer will believe nearly everything a salesman tells them, since the salesman is the purported expert. It reflects on the PRODUCT when a salesman sells a system that does not perform in the way promised. Often, I found that mistakes made by salesmen were not intentional but were simply due to a lack of knowledge. Perhaps it is time for manufacturers to provide some form of training scheme oriented towards salesmen selling their products. This would make life easier for everyone - the buyer, the salesman and the manufacturer. gary@fairlight.oz Gary Evesson.
clubmac@runx.ips.oz (Macintosh Users Group) (12/04/87)
In article <306@fairlight.oz> gary@fairlight.oz (Gary Evesson) writes: > >Often, I found that mistakes made by salesmen were not intentional but were >simply due to a lack of knowledge. Perhaps it is time for manufacturers to >provide some form of training scheme oriented towards salesmen selling their >products. This would make life easier for everyone - the buyer, the salesman >and the manufacturer. Yes, most salespeople have very limited knowledge of the product they are selling. This is true with any technical product, like computers, telecommunications, industrial valves, etc. HOWEVER, most salespeople aren't interested in improving their knowledge of a product, they prefer to waffle their way through a sale. This is also true of many 'tech' support people, who know less about the product than most users. I remember a representative from Microsoft who attended a user group meeting to address the massive problems with Word 3.0, and how they would be fixed in 3.01. This guy could not understand some people's problems with Word 3.0, he simply blamed them for using Word 3.0 incorrectly. Of course, if they sent another tech support guy I know, he would have done a marvellous job, as he *really* knows his stuff. It must be said that Microsoft really have improved their support to users over the last year, and this is a trend. What is REALLY needed now is to make people aware that their user group has access to AppleLink, where you can get straight answers from Apple. Of course, there are some excellent dealers out there. In Sydney, there's Logical Solutions, and these people are quite knowledgable. The same is true of dealers around the world - it is just UNFORTUNATE that there isn't some standard level of knowledge amongst dealers. To fix this, Apple should require *all* dealers to enrol *all* it's sales personnel in better and more detailed training courses. > > > gary@fairlight.oz > Gary Evesson. Jason Haines Club Mac Macintosh Users Group, Sydney, Australia Phone Home: +61-2-73-4444 Snail: Box 213, Holme Building, Sydney University, NSW, 2006, Australia ACSnet: clubmac@runx.ips.oz ARPA: clubmac%runx.ips.oz@uunet.css.gov UUCP:{enea,hplabs,mcvax,prlb2,uunet,ubc-vision,ukc}!munnari!runx.ips.oz!clubmac
ericc@a.cs.okstate.edu (Eric Cloninger) (12/05/87)
This last spring and summer, I was a computer salesman at a mid-sized retail computer store (8 salesmen, 6 technical, 4 management people) dealing in Apple, IBM, and PC clones. I would like to throw my $0.02 in regarding sales training. >> It is high time that Apple got into the support business especially at the >> prices charged for their hardware! Just having the operator refer you to >> your local dealer is not my idea of support, especially when so many of >> them are no where near as technically competent as they should be. True. Most of our "techs" were/are sophomore or junior level Electrical Engineering or COMSC majors. The service manager had just finished his MIS degree. The unspoken policy was "get it out the door and let someone else worry about it". Software support was especially hard. Most of us had used the popular software, but something like Mix-it (an agricultural program), was alien to us. This problem was compounded by lack of software to preview. Granted, many software dealers give demos, but they rarely made it to Stillwater, Oklahoma. When I left, our store still had the demo copy of MicroSoft Word 1.0 for the Macintosh. > Never was a truer word spoken. I spent some time doing technical support for > a distributor here in Australia, and spent almost half my time sorting out > mis-information, mistakes and ignorance perpetrated by salesmen. There are of > course exceptions, but the training of computer salesmen leaves alot to be > desired. As for salespeople at our store, I was the only one with "formal" computer training (I'm an MS student in COMSC at OSU). The other salespeople had all 'dabbled' with computers in their previous jobs. They were comfortable selling things they were familiar with (read: single user systems), but if a customer wanted something elaborate, such as an LAN or even a multi-user PC network, the customer was better off going elsewhere. > I hear someone at Apple saying it is not their responsibility to train > salesmen. I think I saw our Apple rep twice in six months, but I was _never_ given the opportunity to speak with her. ("Get back on the sales floor. If she says anything important, we'll tell you."). When the big hoopla surrounding the release of the Mac SE and Mac II hit Oklahoma, two of the sales people and the service manager went to sales and technical seminars, but I can't say they learned anything. Q: How much is it going to cost to upgrade my SE to 4 mb? A: (given by service manager) About $200.00. Until I started reading otherwise in comp.sys.mac, I took this as gospel. I was the only salesperson who read MacUser and MacWeek. I even read this group and comp.sys.ibm-pc at least twice a week for new information. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I did my homework. > This is true, but I think there should be some effort made to ensure that a > dealer is providing at least some technical expertise. We do exactly that here > at Fairlight - the requirements are extremely tough in our case. With all > high-tech products, a non-technical buyer will believe nearly everything a > salesman tells them, since the salesman is the purported expert. It reflects > on the PRODUCT when a salesman sells a system that does not perform in the way > promised. One of the aspects of selling equipment in an area populated by farmers and non-technical people is that they will buy almost anything you show them. This is quite often a problem. More than one proud parent was ready to invest a mint in their child without knowing what they were buying. An ambitious or unethical salesperson would have a heyday around here. What was worse was to see someone say they paid $1200 for a used Apple II+ with a used Epson printer (or similar equipment) and now they needed help using it. From the store's viewpoint, they were on their own since they didn't buy it from us. Quite often I would meet these people at their home and give them a 4 or 5 hour lesson for $20 - $25. > Often, I found that mistakes made by salesmen were not intentional but were > simply due to a lack of knowledge. Perhaps it is time for manufacturers to > provide some form of training scheme oriented towards salesmen selling their > products. This would make life easier for everyone - the buyer, the salesman > and the manufacturer. Risking the possibility of making a rash generalization, I don't think all the blame can be laid on the manufacturers. Some of it, yes. When our Apple rep came to the store on her quarterly visit, she spoke with the management only. However, our IBM representative was most helpful. He talked to the salespeople about services offered by IBM to retailers and sales methods. He even sold some product. I'm not trying to flame Apple. As far as equipment goes, I don't think there is much better (certainly not Big Blue). I think a good deal of the blame lies with management trying to cut costs. We quit having our weekly sales meeting because management didn't like paying the sales people for time not on the sales floor or on sales calls (the meetings were rarely longer than 30 minutes). I realize the purpose of any business is to make money, but it doesn't do any good if the salesmen can't sell. I'm sure someone out there will think I'm full of s__t, but that's OK. These thoughts were the personal observations of a naive (from the business viewpoint) salesperson. Who knows, maybe my opinion will change, but I don't think we can blame Apple (or IBM or any manufacturer) and yet ignore the idiots behind retail management. Eric Cloninger ========================================================================= UUCP : {cbatt,cbosgd,ihnp4,rutgers,seismo,uiucdcs}!okstate!ericc Internet : ericc@a.cs.okstate.edu USnail : 219 Math Sciences Bldg., OSU, Stillwater, Oklahoma 74075 AT & T : (405) 624-5668 ========================================================================= Disclaimer : Heaven's knockin' on my door, but I won't fight a holy war.
gwe@cbdkc1.ATT.COM (George Erhart) (12/11/87)
In article <2895@okstate.UUCP> ericc@a.cs.okstate.edu (Eric Cloninger) writes: >This last spring and summer, I was a computer salesman at a mid-sized retail >computer store (8 salesmen, 6 technical, 4 management people) dealing in Apple, >IBM, and PC clones. I would like to throw my $0.02 in regarding sales training ... text deleted ... >What was worse was to see someone say they paid $1200 for a used Apple II+ >with a used Epson printer (or similar equipment) and now they needed help >using it. From the store's viewpoint, they were on their own since they didn't This type of rip off is common in the area of small business computer systems too. I have a friend who is an independent consultant for small business computer systems and he has told me some real horror stories. For example, the owner of a small automotive parts rebuilding company (40 employees) wanted to purchase a computer to replace their paper bookkeeping system. The first person sold them an HP system for $80,000. It had ~4 terminals and 40 Meg of disk ... and no software that fit their way of doing business. After a while, they got disgusted with it and had it taken out. After working through their needs, and understanding what they wanted to do, he showed them a Mac with a tailor made set of spreadsheet templates on top of EXCEL (or one of those spreadsheets). He was able to teach them how to use it in a few hours. The final system was 4 mac+, 4 40 meg drives, 1 40 meg tape, 1 laserwriter, and TOPS for network software. The total price was well under the original $80,000 and they have since learned to adapt and setup their own spreadsheet and other software. The biggest plus in this story is that the Mac was so easy to use, that they were instantly seeing uses for the machine and software in their business. With the HP system, they could not see how the software was going to help them. [ Note, my friend does recommend non-mac machines for cases that warrent them. But he has found that for completely computer illiterate customers, the Mac is the easiest to teach (train) people for, even if another machine has a slightly more applicable software package. It is best to get them hooked on how easy it is to use the computer without frustrating them with software that is difficult to understand. ] -- George Erhart at AT&T Bell Laboratories Columbus, Ohio 614-860-4021 {ihnp4,cbosgd}!cbdkc1!gwe