woo@pioneer.arpa (Alex Woo) (01/01/70)
Thanks for reminding me. I returned some merchandise in July, wrote a letter on October 12th and APDA has still not refunded my credit card account. I guess it's time to write another letter and submit a complaint with the Renton Better Business Burea. Alex Woo I will never do business with APDA again.
clubmac@runx.ips.oz (Macintosh Users Group) (11/21/87)
I for one am not renewing my membership for APDA. Why? 1) Their prices for 3rd party products are higher than many mail-order houses 2) Their freight charges are outrageous - mail-order houses are *much* cheaper 3) I have received 4 APDAlogs for US$35. Other than the APDA catalog, there's nothing to them. The only good thing to come from joining APDA in Dec '86 was receiving Scott Knaster's book, "How to write Macintosh Software". To anyone considering joining APDA, don't, unless you *have* to get MPW or any other Apple products. The people from APDA are really riding the proverbial gravy-train...
chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (11/22/87)
>I for one am not renewing my membership for APDA. Why? I just did. Not for the products. >1) Their prices for 3rd party products are higher than many mail-order houses >2) Their freight charges are outrageous - mail-order houses are *much* cheaper About these, I don't knw. Living down the street from Computerware means I don't pay much attention to mail order. >To anyone considering joining APDA, don't, unless you *have* to get MPW or >any other Apple products. Or unless you need Apple documentation, Apple pre-release documentation or software, or any of the other stuff that Apple Developers need on a timely basis. Like the HyperCard documentation for XCMD/XCFN. Or pre-release of Inside Mac Vol. 5. Or beta releases of Apple software. Look at the focus. ADPA's set up primarily to get Apple stuff out to developers. From my experience, it does that quite well. I've never suffered a major delay, I've never had an order problem. The third party stuff, the commercial products, those are nice to have, but that's not what APDA's all about -- those are added services. You can get most of those things through MacTutuor, too, which is a magazine. Or mail-order stores. If that stuff isn't as competitive as you'd like, fine. Don't order it. But for what APDA does as its primary focus, it's irreplacable. If you don't need it, don't join APDA. As lnog as I have my Mac, I'll be a member. chuq --- Chuq "Fixed in 4.0" Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM Delphi: CHUQ
drc@dbase.UUCP (Dennis Cohen) (11/23/87)
In article <1228@runx.ips.oz>, clubmac@runx.ips.oz (Macintosh Users Group) writes: > > I for one am not renewing my membership for APDA. Why? > > 1) Their prices for 3rd party products are higher than many mail-order houses > 2) Their freight charges are outrageous - mail-order houses are *much* cheaper > 3) I have received 4 APDAlogs for US$35. Other than the APDA catalog, there's > nothing to them. > > The only good thing to come from joining APDA in Dec '86 was receiving > Scott Knaster's book, "How to write Macintosh Software". > > To anyone considering joining APDA, don't, unless you *have* to get MPW or > any other Apple products. > > The people from APDA are really riding the proverbial gravy-train... I tend to disagree. While it is true that there are mail-order houses that charge less on a number of 3rd party products, there are some that seem to only be available at a discount from APDA (SemperSoft Modula-2, for one). Further, publications such as the Tech Notes, IM Volume V, Apple Hardware Reference Manual, etc ("official" Apple publications) are sole-sourced through APDA. They are undoubtedly making a fair profit on 3rd party items, but I don't think they're making much on the Apple products since they have to do the printing and so forth themselves (and end up with a LOT of dead stock when Apple publishes an update). As far as shipping and handling goes, the others seem to have just gone up a lot -- $4.30 S/H for Acta 2.0 from ComputerWare (all inside CA), that's 10%. Dennis Cohen Ashton-Tate Glendale Development Center dBASE Mac Development Team -------------------------- Disclaimer: The above material constitutes the personal opinion of the author!
hallett@falstaff.steinmetz (Jeff R Hallett) (11/23/87)
In article <1228@runx.ips.oz> clubmac@runx.ips.oz (Macintosh Users Group) writes: > >I for one am not renewing my membership for APDA. Why? > >1) Their prices for 3rd party products are higher than many mail-order houses >2) Their freight charges are outrageous - mail-order houses are *much* cheaper >3) I have received 4 APDAlogs for US$35. Other than the APDA catalog, there's > nothing to them. > >The only good thing to come from joining APDA in Dec '86 was receiving >Scott Knaster's book, "How to write Macintosh Software". > >To anyone considering joining APDA, don't, unless you *have* to get MPW or >any other Apple products. > >The people from APDA are really riding the proverbial gravy-train... ACtually, the thing that really gets me is that they are not and do not plan to sell Hypercard. What the heck am I doing begin a member them?? Also, another really ludicrous point is the Apple MWP. If I understand the APDA ads correctly, you buy MPW for $200 or $150. However, to really do anything, you need to buy the compiler for another $150 (or so). How STUPID!!! They should at least charge a little more for MPW and then give you a choice of the languages. The nice thing is that they are selling Multifinder for 17.50. That may make membership worthwhile ($20 + $17.50 = $37.50 instead of $49) Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many" -- Kirk (STIII) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
cca@pur-phy.UUCP (11/25/87)
> ACtually, the thing that really gets me is that they are not and do > not plan to sell Hypercard. Apple won't LET APDA sell HyperCard. I believe Apple is doing this to keep their dealers happy. The general policy is that Apple won't sell anything through APDA that you could buy at a dealer (MacWrite, MacPaint, MacDraw, HyperCard, etc.). > Also, another really ludicrous point is the Apple MWP. If I > understand the APDA ads correctly, you buy MPW for $200 or $150. > However, to really do anything, you need to buy the compiler for > another $150 (or so). How STUPID!!! They should at least charge a > little more for MPW and then give you a choice of the languages. Again, this is Apple's doing, not APDA's. APDA just duplicates the disks and documentation that Apple sends them. They get no say in how the pieces to MPW are bundled. On this one, I agree with Apple. What if you don't want one of Apple's compilers? There are several other compilers out there that run under MPW. I don't want to pay for a compiler from Apple if I'm not going to use it! Writing a compiler to run under MPW means that the writers don't have to worry about also writing an editor, or linker, or any of the other things that come with a programming environment. As an aside, MPW does come with a very nice assembler, so it can be used without a compiler, if you're an assembly hacker (I'm not). > The nice thing is that they are selling Multifinder for 17.50. That > may make membership worthwhile ($20 + $17.50 = $37.50 instead of > $49) Read the catalog entry for this. The Multifinder package from APDA is not the same as the one the retailers sell. The one from APDA contains info useful to a developer, which you don't get with the dealer version. The one from a dealer contains the "user manual", which you don't get with the APDA version. Of course, whether you actually need the "user manual" is for you to decide. Charlie Allen cca@newton.physics.purdue.edu
russell@acf3.UUCP (11/25/87)
APDA is simply awful. I, too, have let my "membership" lapse. There is a definite hint of "cutting off your nose to spite your face" here, but I reject that argument vehemently because it is exactly APDA's monopoly position that must be ended. Unfortunately, Apple just isn't listening (well actually they do, and they defend Apple's decision to use APDA very strongly). The only thing to do is JUST SAY NO. APDA stinks. Kill it. Apple must find some way to release non-free material to developers in a more effective way -- and it MUST not be a monopoly, unless of course Apple does it itself. The dopiest clowns in Apple can do a much better job than APDA. Sorry about the irrational tone of this, but I have been driven crazy on the subject of APDA. -r (Richard Reich as russell@nyu) Relay-Version: version nyu B notes v1.5 12/10/84; site acf3.NYU.EDU From: lewish@acf2.UUCP (Henry M. Lewis) Date: 24-Nov-87 16:37 EST Date-Received: 24-Nov-87 16:37 EST Subject: Re: Kitchenaid Mixers Message-ID: <1270003@acf2.UUCP> Path: acf3!acf2!lewish Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking Posting-Version: version nyu B notes v1.5 12/10/84; site acf2.UUCP Organization: New York University References: <1306@lll-lcc.aRpA> > On the subject of Kitchenaid mixers, could someone give me a breakdown on > the different models, their features, and advantages/disadvantages. . . I have used all three basic KitchenAid models. The smallest model (K4C?) is, to my mind, not worth considering simply because it offers no dough hook. It does, however, outperform almost any non-KitchenAid. It has a 4-quart glass bowl. Those in the K45 family, including K45SS and a new model whose number I don't know, have 4 1/2 quart stainless-steel bowls. The motor tips back to remove the beater from the bowl. K5 and K5SS have 5-quart stainless-steel bowls that rest on a yoke that raises to meet the immobile motor. Both come with flat beater, whip, and dough hook. I find the K45 more convenient, especially when attachments are used: the K5's attachment port is about a foot and a half above the counter, and one must build great sculptures of books, pans, etc., to get a bowl in position to catch sliced onions, ground meat, pasta, or whatever. I haven't found K5's additional power or capacity necessary. It does have one advantage over K45, in that it accepts a water jacket that can be used to keep the mixture in the bowl warm or cool. All models accept a variety of attachments, except that you're warned not to use the grain mill with the K4C. I recommend the food grinder with the fruit- and vegetable-mill parts, and the "rotary" slicer-shredder. I have also the pasta-making parts, but prefer other means of making pasta. The attachments are all stupefyingly expensive. The Farberware mixer, by the way, is a good alternative--it's very much like the K45. I once found it on sale for $99. --Hank Lewis {ihnp4,allegra,seismo}!cmcl2!acf2!lewish Relay-Version: version nyu B notes v1.5 12/10/84; site acf3.NYU.EDU From: mcp7579@acf3.NYU.EDU (Michael Poppers) Date: 24-Nov-87 21:13 EST Date-Received: 24-Nov-87 21:13 EST Subject: Lots of Haas air Message-ID: <514@acf3.NYU.EDU> Path: acf3!mcp7579 Newsgroups: rec.music.classical Organization: New York University References: <3353@aw.sei.cmu.edu> <373@a.UUCP> <55000027@uicsrd> <4156@venera.isi.edu> Lines: 74 Summary: From the Haas' mouth to this net (2 quoted responsa -- *not* long) In article <373@a.UUCP>, mwj@a.UUCP (William Johnson) writes: > > In Haas' case, very few "knowledgeable" people > (whatever that means ...) have much use for him -- but I bet our local > classical station has more listeners while he's on than in the hour right > after him, and costs and advertisers being what they are, they need all > the listeners they can get. In a word, Haas is SUCCESSFUL, both as > entertainment in his own right and as popularizer of a genre. If the > classical-music business as a whole was as successful, there wouldn't be > as many major orchestras in trouble. Come on, Bill, Karl didn't get on the air because he was successful. You're putting the kart before the Haas :-). Seriously, it seems to me that K.H. brings himself down to a more popular (even vulgar, if you recognize the strict etymology rather than the coarser connotations) level in order to give solid music lessons to simple commonfolk (more on this below). If his brand of musical instruction garners a large audience, as Bill said, so much the better for classical music as a whole. A friend of mine who loves c.m. says that he got his start in listening to it because I and some others told him that the nice music/musical themes that he heard in certain TV commercials were classical. In article <4156@venera.isi.edu>, smoliar@vaxa.isi.edu (Stephen Smoliar) writes: > > The things you can learn about from the real world! To the best of my > knowledge, Karl Hass originates from WQXR in New York City. This is not > an NPR station. It is a commercial station; and, in my childhood, it > was one of my earliest introductions to classical music (not to mention > a full Gilbert-and-Sullivan operetta every Saturday morning). Right you are. I've always heard WQXR's name mentioned, every hour on the hour, as "...the radio stations of the NY Times." Let me tell all you sophisticated classical-musicophiles something: Haas may not be your cup of tea, but (in much the same way that WQXR related to Stephen) I think he provides a great service for those poor, ignorant, lower-class, etc. folk who aren't extremely well versed in classical music (and I still put myself in that category, even though I've been listening to and loving c.m. for years), and sometimes he even puts on a show for dedicated listeners to c.m., such as "Name the Mystery Composer." Whatever the case, I really did enjoy listening to his show on a day that I wasn't in school (many moons ago). And my mother, whose level of musical love & knowledge I rank with the late Danny Kaye (can't read a solitary bar, but a hell of a memory), considers him both knowledgable *and* interesting. So there!... Just thought you people should also know that WQXR itself might agree that K.H. was getting a little tiring in his middle age ("middle" as in "'til 120, Karl!"), since it moved his program from 9AM weekdays to some late time on weekends (ya know, when we're getting back from a movie..I mean, a concert). > However, it has long since fallen from whatever grace it may once have had... > Meanwhile, back in New York, serious listeners can always turn to WNCN > or, when it is broadcasting classical music, WNYC. Well, if serious means "no personality, just music," maybe, but I happen to feel that serious listening and warhorses like Duncan Pirnie [sic] (when he was on), George Edwards, etc., are not orthogonal. As for the commercials, except for a few funny ones, I simply "tune out" (same re TV). If you can tolerate an intermission during a concert, surely you can handle a few stupid commercials!? %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Michael C. Poppers WORK: 212/736-4433 % Peritus Clavis % 143 Bennett Ave. NYC 10040 PLAY: 212/568-6837 % Machinae vivit % {ihnp4,...,seismo}!cmcl2!acf3!mcp7579 (N.Y. University) %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% :-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-: "Get your VAX straight, honey -- you're seriously MIS-informed" -- from ComputerWorld buttons :-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu (11/26/87)
It still sounds like a scam. If they're the ONLY official source for
Apple documentation, and you have to pay a membership fee, that's an
inherent part of the cost of using your computer. It's rather stupid
to tell people to live without it, if you can't get the documentation
any other way. Computers are PROGRAMMABLE. That's one of the main
reasons for buying one.
Mike Berger
Center for Advanced Study
University of Illinois
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu
{ihnp4 | convex | pur-ee}!uiucuxc!clio!beTo S0raylau@dasys1.UUCP (Raymond Lau) (11/26/87)
In article <7943@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP>, hallett@falstaff.steinmetz (Jeff R Hallett) writes: > > Also, another really ludicrous point is the Apple MWP. If I understand the > APDA ads correctly, you buy MPW for $200 or $150. However, to really do > anything, you need to buy the compiler for another $150 (or so). How > STUPID!!! They should at least charge a little more for MPW and then give you > a choice of the languages. > > The nice thing is that they are selling Multifinder for 17.50. That may make > membership worthwhile ($20 + $17.50 = $37.50 instead of $49) > > Jeff MPW for 200 includes the assembler... So you can do something with it... No, the 17.50 is not for MultiFinder. It is for the development package, which includes the tech info on MF. If you want MF, you'll have to buy their version of the system software, which runs for about the same price, if not less. Of course, you don't get the unneeded users' manual... BTW, the MF pack is the same one sent around the developers...so I've been told. As usual, when I joined up, it was too late. But the technotes are valuable enough... -- Raymond Lau {allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri\ Big Electric Cat Public Unix {bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!raylau New York, NY, USA {sun}!hoptoad/ GEnie:RayLau Delphi:RaymondLau CIS:76174,2617 "Take it and StuffIt."
rick@uwmacc.UUCP (the absurdist) (11/27/87)
In article <17000073@clio> berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu writes: > >It still sounds like a scam. If they're the ONLY official source for >Apple documentation, and you have to pay a membership fee, that's an >inherent part of the cost of using your computer. It's rather stupid >to tell people to live without it, if you can't get the documentation >any other way. Computers are PROGRAMMABLE. That's one of the main >reasons for buying one. Sorry, but this is not so. Very few users program computers any more; most run applications programs. There are SOME users who want to program them. These people can buy, from Addison-Wesley, a five volume set of programming information on the Macintosh, written by Apple. They can get, FOR FREE, an extensive set of technical notes from many user's groups and electronic networks, without going to APDA at all. A great many people on this net did a lot of programming without any APDA products at all, so the assertion that APDA prevents you from programming is clearly unsupportable. The only thing APDA has a monopoly on is the distribution of unsupported, draft and/or beta versions of Apple products. These are available through the mail at a reasonable price. APDA did have distribution problems when they started up, but this isn't all that unusual in the computer industry. Others have complained that their 3rd party product prices aren't the cheapest possible. Well, you can certainly buy these elsewhere. APDA probably doesn't do sufficient volume in many of these to get the cheapest price. I have bought these at the higher price, on occasion, simply because the price difference wasn't enough to justify the additional cost of writing and processing another purchase order. Finally, APDA is an organization which has no equivalent that I know of in the microcomputer industry. Does IBM provide any drafts of documentation at all? No. Does Microsoft, or Lotus, or Ashton-Tate, or Borland? No. You have to wait for the release version. (Which may be as buggy as a beta, but for which you pay full price...). As for Commodore, I once tried to apply for a developer's kit for the University. Here we are, holder of IBM's single largest grant to any University for micro development; holder of a substantial Apple grant; beta site for several programs; test site for early versions of DEC workstation products -- Commodore wants a proposal detailing whether or not we're SERIOUS developers before they will consider whether or not they will allow us to BUY a buggy compiler and draft documentation. I did not continue my efforts to get us involved in the Amiga. (I don't know what Atari does for developers). APDA is just fine by me: RA for Apple and APDA both. -- Rick Keir -- all the oysters have moved away -- UWisc - Madison "Watch the skies...."
39clocks@violet.berkeley.edu (11/30/87)
In article <2073@dasys1.UUCP> raylau@dasys1.UUCP (Raymond Lau) writes: >In article <7943@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP>, hallett@falstaff.steinmetz (Jeff R Hallett) writes: >> >> Also, another really ludicrous point is the Apple MWP. If I understand the >> APDA ads correctly, you buy MPW for $200 or $150. However, to really do >> anything, you need to buy the compiler for another $150 (or so). How >> STUPID!!! They should at least charge a little more for MPW and then give you >> a choice of the languages. >> >> The nice thing is that they are selling Multifinder for 17.50. That may make >> membership worthwhile ($20 + $17.50 = $37.50 instead of $49) >> >> Jeff > >MPW for 200 includes the assembler... So you can do something with it... > Actually, selling MPW separately is a good idea. And the fact that the MPW shell is such a great programming environment only adds to this. You should think of the MPW shell as an editor (a good one in the IBM PC world, brief, will cost you $200) with a lot of fancy tools (and assembler) thrown in. Third party developers such as AZTEC, Consulair, Megamax, TML (but probably not ThINK or Borland) can use the MPW shell as a base for competitive - maybe even superior - compilers. These companies should easily be able to provide their compilers as MPW tools for less than the $150 that APDA is charging for each of Apple's, especially if they throw in a library or two with a few useful routines. But back to the problem, which is, APDA's monopoly on Apple development products. There is no advantage to and no reason why APDA should have sole distribution rights to final versions of Apple software. I know, I know, the whole idea of APDA was to provide a means by which developers could get their hands on 'state uvda art' software before the documentation is printed and all the bugs have been worked out. Some might even think that it's neat to get photocopies of half finished documentation with hand scribbled notes along with the software for $275 (which is what you paid if you were on the ball and purchased the MPW shell v2.0B1 from the April 87 APDAlog). Interestingly, this purchase came with a promise of 'final' documentation, which has since been changed (APDAlog - October 87) to 'If you want the future final documents you will need to purchase those separately when they become available'. Somewhere along the line the price was also dropped to $200 but I guess the extra $75 I paid doesn't cover cost of a 'final document' (I should add to these ramblings that I probably wouldn't mind the draft documentation if it wasn't so atrocious; The paper used for the photocopies is of lower grade than that used by Apple in the Software Supplement days and it tears out of a binder too easily; There are missing charts and screen prints so not all of the examples are clear; There is no, count em, en oh, fu~{ing index supplied, so it is painfully difficult to look things up. How much could it possibly cost to produce a index? - I wonder what they are using for document preparation.) Back to the distribution of final version software. Why doesn't Apple simply distribute this stuff via the normal retail channels and let APDA deal with the alphas, betas, gamas and upgrades? In my opinion, I would have rather received the printed (final) documentation for MPW v1.0 and notes describing the differences in the new version (v2.0 - commando, new tools, new shell features, etc.). It probably wouldn't even be embarassing to sell a package like this in the stores (I doubt many are buying v1.0 now that v2.0 is out anyway). I say, turn this stuff over to Claris for starters. That way we will get finished products and something new, product support. Despite all of this I renewed my membership to monAPDAly...Why? Because I realize that it is the only way I will be able to leagaly get a copy of MPW v3 - which Apple says will have a source level debugger - sounds hot! I'm getting tired but it would probably be in the best interest to all developers, commercial and hobbiest, to voice their views about APDA as an organization (and concept). Here are some other topics worthy of discussion: o Should APDA charge a membership fee in light of the fact that they sell for a profit and accept advertisers in APDAlog? o How much money is APDA making any way and what are they doing with it? o How close to finalization (I realize that MPW 2.O will not be final before v3.0 is available in beta form) should beta/draft software /documentation be to be concidered acceptable for distribution? o Is the APDAlog a magazine or a catalog? o Who's running the show anyway? >No, the 17.50 is not for MultiFinder. It is for the development package, which >includes the tech info on MF. If you want MF, you'll have to buy their version >of the system software, which runs for about the same price, if not less. >Of course, you don't get the unneeded users' manual... > >BTW, the MF pack is the same one sent around the developers...so I've been >told. As usual, when I joined up, it was too late. But the technotes are >valuable enough... > > Actually, $17.50 will buy you System Software v 5.0 (aka Multifinder, and confirmation that laserwriters are selling Macs) - check pg 29 of the 11/87 APDAlog. It comes with release notes, developer information and a list of known bugs. Peter Marinac 'I think it's in that pile...'
larryh@tekgvs.TEK.COM (Larry Hutchinson) (12/01/87)
In article <6092@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> 39clocks@violet.berkeley.edu () writes: >purchased the MPW shell v2.0B1 from the April 87 APDAlog). Interestingly, >this purchase came with a promise of 'final' documentation, which has since >been changed (APDAlog - October 87) to 'If you want the future final documents >you will need to purchase those separately when they become available'. > >Somewhere along the line the price was also dropped to $200 but I guess the >extra $75 I paid doesn't cover cost of a 'final document' (I should add to Isn't this bloody illegal? -- it appears to at least flirt with mail fraud! For the most part I have been quite satisifed with APDA, but this makes me see red. (Almost as bad as when I think about the lack of support for dashed lines in quickdraw, but that's another story.) When I saw the notice in APDAlog, I assumed that there would be a general outcry and APDA would be forced to reconsider. Apparently no such luck. Larry Hutchinson, Tektronix, Inc. PO Box 500, MS 50-383, Beaverton, OR 97077 { decvax,allegra }!tektronix!tekgvs!larryh
hpoppe@scdpyr.UUCP (Herb Poppe) (12/01/87)
In article <6092@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, 39clocks@violet.berkeley.edu writes: >... > Actually, $17.50 will buy you System Software v 5.0 (aka Multifinder, and > confirmation that laserwriters are selling Macs) - check pg 29 of the 11/87 > APDAlog. It comes with release notes, developer information and a list of > known bugs. > > Peter Marinac 'I think it's in that pile...' On page 30 it says: "This product is a reference for developers and does not contain a user's manual. You can obtain the user's manual by purchasing the Macintosh System Software Update v. 5.0 from your authorized Apple dealer." -- Herb Poppe NCAR INTERNET: hpoppe@scdpyr.UCAR.EDU (303) 497-1296 P.O. Box 3000 CSNET: hpoppe@ncar.CSNET Boulder, CO 80307 UUCP: hpoppe@scdpyr.UUCP
cnc@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Chris Christensen) (12/01/87)
> Computers are PROGRAMMABLE. That's one of the main >reasons for buying one. Remember, you are talking about a computer that does not even come with a language. If the languages is not > an inherent part of the cost of using your computer why should the documentation to use it be? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris Christensen Hewlett-Packard (408) 553-2955 or telnet 553-2955 Design Technology Center cnc@dtc.hp.com Santa Clara, CA ...!hplabs!hpcid!cnc __ __ / ) / / ) / _/_ / /_ __ o _ / /_ __ o _ / _ ____ _ _ ____ (__/ / /_/ (_<_/_)_ (__/ / /_/ (_<_/_)_<__</_/ / <_/_)_</_/ / <_
raylau@dasys1.UUCP (Raymond Lau) (12/03/87)
In article <6092@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> 39clocks@violet.berkeley.edu () writes: >purchased the MPW shell v2.0B1 from the April 87 APDAlog). Interestingly, >this purchase came with a promise of 'final' documentation, which has since >been changed (APDAlog - October 87) to 'If you want the future final documents >you will need to purchase those separately when they become available'. > >Somewhere along the line the price was also dropped to $200 but I guess the >extra $75 I paid doesn't cover cost of a 'final document' (I should add to I believe that you have to pay for the final doc if you order MPW NOW. Previous customers get it for free.....nothing wrong with that. -- Raymond Lau {allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri\ Big Electric Cat Public Unix {bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!raylau New York, NY, USA {sun}!hoptoad/ GEnie:RayLau Delphi:RaymondLau CIS:76174,2617 "Take it and StuffIt."
peter@aucs.UUCP (12/03/87)
>>... >> Actually, $17.50 will buy you System Software v 5.0 (aka Multifinder, and >> confirmation that laserwriters are selling Macs) - check pg 29 of the 11/87 >> APDAlog. It comes with release notes, developer information and a list of >> known bugs. >> I just got this package. I does *not* contain any system software, multifinder, or anything that useful. Just some developer info docs and a disk with some "interface" modules. Since I don't have MF yet, its useless to me. When is MF going to be released in Canada????? Peter Steele Acadia Univ. Wolfville NS Canada B0P1X0 (902)542-2201x121 UUCP:{uunet|watmath|utai|garfield}dalcs!aucs!Peter BITNET:Peter@Acadia
jordan@apple.UUCP (Jordan Mattson) (12/04/87)
Dear Peter - Did you just get the MultiFinder Development Package or the Macintosh System Software v. 5.0? The MultiFinder Development Package does not contain MultiFiner (which it says in the APDALog). The Macintosh System Software v. 5.0 is the current system disk(s), along with information about System Software which developers need. If you did order the Macintosh System Software v. 5.0 and received the MultiFinder Development Package, please let me know! -- Jordan Mattson UUCP: ucbvax!mtxinu!apple!jordan Apple Computer, Inc. CSNET: jordan@apple.CSNET Tools & Languages Product Management 20525 Mariani Avenue, MS 27S Cupertino, CA 95014 408-973-4601 "Joy is the serious business of heaven." C.S. Lewis
socha@drivax.UUCP (Henri J. Socha (7-x6628)) (12/08/87)
YES! To describe the exact details: Wrote order November 23 and mailed next day (or two) Received by APDA Nov 30 remember this was over Thanksgiving Sent Dec 2 via Fed Ex. 2 day service (I.E. the cheapest option) Arrived Dec 4 One item (out of 6) was backordered (IM V5). OK, we'll see how long the backorder takes to arrive. I'll only post if something unexpected happens. So, it seems that the normal case works quite well. Show me a Co. that doesn't have some problems and I'll show you a bridge for sale (cheap). -- UUCP:...!amdahl!drivax!socha WAT Iron'75 "Everything should be made as simple as possible but not simpler." A. Einstein
john@felix.UUCP (John Gilbert) (12/09/87)
In article <2039@uwmacc.UUCP> rick@unix.macc.wisc.edu.UUCP (The Absurdist) writes: >The only thing APDA has a monopoly on is the distribution of unsupported, >draft and/or beta versions of Apple products. These are available >through the mail at a reasonable price. APDA did have distribution >problems when they started up, but this isn't all that unusual in >the computer industry. OK. Perhaps I have missed something. Where do I get the first official release (FINAL, not draft) of the Multifinder internal documentation? Where do I get the first official (not draft) version of thge HyperTalk documentation. I think, if what you said is true, then perhaps many of the documents never make it out of DRAFT. Frankly, I often prefer to wait for the final version so I can have an index. I honestly have no idea where to get these. Also, where else can I get the field releases of MPW, MPW C, or MPW Pascal. Again, I seriously have no idea, but would consider an alternative. > >Finally, APDA is an organization which has no equivalent that I know of >in the microcomputer industry. Does IBM provide any drafts of documentation >at all? No. Does Microsoft, or Lotus, or Ashton-Tate, or Borland? No. This means only that they are a good idea in principal. I suggest that the practical implimentation lets down the principal, and am not sure why we should be content with just that. >You have to wait for the release version. (Which may be as buggy >as a beta, but for which you pay full price...). As for Commodore, >I once tried to apply for a developer's kit for the University. >Here we are, holder of IBM's single largest grant to any University >for micro development; holder of a substantial Apple grant; beta >site for several programs; test site for early versions of DEC >workstation products -- Commodore wants a proposal detailing whether >or not we're SERIOUS developers before they will consider whether or >not they will allow us to BUY a buggy compiler and draft documentation. >I did not continue my efforts to get us involved in the Amiga. (I don't >know what Atari does for developers). > >APDA is just fine by me: RA for Apple and APDA both. Not by me. Just because they are the only ones who do this kind of thing does not mean it is GOOD that they are the only ones. I do feel that someone like MacConnection could do a much better job with the same products. Just because something is Draft doesn't really mean you need a specialized, independant distribution channel. They hold a Monopoly on the developer services, and do not do a very good job at it. I, and numerous other folks here on the net, have had problems. They are only marginally better now than before. Since I have joined, they have established a minimum of $6.00 shipping charge. that meant if I ordered the MacIntalk stuff I wanted, I would have to wait until (if) I needed more, or pay $6.00 shipping for a $10.00 product, when the charge is really something less than $1.00. If you want to argue that "they are a small company and have to offset their overhead", then I argue that perhaps they are too small to do a good job of what they are trying to offer, and maybe Apple should consider another outlet that is better geared to handle it. I am sure some folks have no problem with APDA. But a (seemingly) high percentage of users have a gripe. Places like "Icon Review" have to shape up or die (or fester for a looong time) due to competition. APDA seems to have no real reason to improve. John G. -- John Gilbert !trwrb!felix!john
bobc@oophost.UUCP (Bob Campbell) (12/15/87)
In article <15596@felix.UUCP> john@felix.UUCP (John Gilbert) writes: >I am sure some folks have no problem with APDA. But a (seemingly) high >percentage of users have a gripe. Places like "Icon Review" have to >shape up or die (or fester for a looong time) due to competition. >APDA seems to have no real reason to improve. I have not had too many problems with APDA, and I am for the most part very pleased with their service. It is not true that APDA does not have to shape up, Apple reviews the status of APDA on a regular basis, and there are people at Apple you can complain to if you don't like their service. Wheither or not A.P.P.L.E keeps it control of APDA is not a clear thing, APDA belongs to Apple Computer Inc, and they can take control of it if they feel it is needed. I believe that APDA has made some big improvements in the not too distant past. (For example they have lowered the prices on all of their 3rd party products with the goal of being competative with other Mail Order Houses). In addition some of APDA's problems can be traced to the problems that developers (Apple) have in releasing software on time. This is not to say I am completely happy with APDA, but they are still the only game in town for some things like MPW, and SmallTalk. (And does A-W have Inside Mac Vol. V out yet?) Bob Campbell