clay@claris.UUCP (Clay Maeckel) (01/22/88)
Dear new Claris product users,
Claris would like to be able to support our products here on Usenet
and are concerned about the "non-commercial" aspects of this forum. We
would like to be able to answer questions from the net, post official
announcements, and upload demo versions of our software. Currently the
only groups that would really apply are comp.sys.mac, comp.binaries.mac,
and comp.sys.apple (where would apple II binaries go?). A better solution
would be the formation of a Claris specific news group. A proposal for
such a new domain level has been made that was started when Telebit asked
the same question about support in the comp.dcom.modems group. The text
of this proposal follows below and all follow ups on this new structure
should be directed to ddsw1 as stated below. Claris will be holding off
support on this forum until we see the outcome of this discussion.
Thanks.
:
:Commercial, a proposal:
:
:Those of you who have responded to my posting on the Usenet have indicated
:interest in carrying, reading, or seeing a 'commercial' substructure of
:the net created. I have envisioned a specific structure which I'd like to
:present here for comment.
:
:First, 'co.*' would not be carried by the backbone (unless they chose to).
:Anyone receiving it will be told, in advance, that commercial material will
:be included.
:
:The structure should be designed to allow sites to only receive postings
:about areas of commerce which interest them. The idea of a group for a
:particular company is probably only justified in a few cases, those where
:the volume of information about a specific company is overwhelming. These
:would simply be sub-divisions of the greater distribution.
:
:For example, the structure might look like:
:
: co
: co.hardware
: co.hardware.modems
: co.hardware.modems.telebit (Telebit information, perhaps moderated)
: co.hardware.clones (compatibles, from 8088 to '386?)
: co.hardware.minis
: co.hardware.mainframes
:
: and
:
: co.software
: co.software.database
: co.software.accounting
: co.software......
:
: and
:
: co.services
: co.services.contracted
: etc...
:
:Now, if we want to be less chauvenistic and allow for inclusion of other
:things than computer equipment, you simply insert a 'comp' between the
:'co' and the first subdivision; now we open pandora's box with real
:estate, vehicle sales, and any other kind of thing being postable.
:
:This allows sites to determine what they wish to look at; a site which is
:only interested in software would only carry 'co.comp.software', for
:example. Other sites which want the whole shooting match get 'co'
:plain and simple. While it is possible to censor a specific company's
:postings, it is now very simple to choose your reception and forwarding
:habits based on the type of products being discussed, which is the primary
:intent.
:
:Now, on the subject of moderation:
:
:I do not believe that moderation works. Therefore, I propose that
:we not use it, but instead compile 'FASCIST' into our sources and use that
:method to control who can and can not post to our commercial net. This
:is a product support and information dissemination service. Flamefests
:can be controlled at the source, and this is the most effective way. Also;
:you should feel free as an administrator to cancel postings which are
:obviously void of content, if you have your own company group you are
:considered absolute 'god' in that forum.
:
:For those who must have moderation, it can be imposed on the vendor-specific
:groups at the bottom of the trees. The larger discussions, though, should
:remain unmoderated.
:
:All discussion on this topic should be sent to 'ddsw1!co'; it will be echoed
:to the list of particiapants automatically. If the path this message took
:to get to you is sub-optimum, please advise me of the adjustment(s)
:required.
:
:If others you know wish to participate, have them drop 'ddsw1!karl' a line
:with their net address and I will add them to the distribution.
:
:Thanks for the time!
:
--
Clay Maeckel * UUCP: {ames,apple,portal,sun,voder}!claris!clay
(I know nothing!) * Arpanet: claris!clay@ames.arc.nasa.gov
Claris Corporation * AppleLink: Maeckel1 * CompuServe: 73057,255moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) (01/25/88)
In article <315@claris.UUCP> clay@claris.UUCP (Clay Maeckel) writes: >Dear new Claris product users, > Claris would like to be able to support our products here on Usenet >and are concerned about the "non-commercial" aspects of this forum. We >would like to be able to answer questions from the net, post official >announcements, and upload demo versions of our software. Let's take this on three levels: 1) Answering questions from the net I'd say, fine, as long as they are brief and to the point; i.e., if someone asks "How many events will the new MacProject allow?", you reply "YY events, dependent on your memory, etc., etc...." -- not "Well, we've got LOADS of new features for MacProject, here's a 100-line summary of them, and hey, while we're at it, how about that new MacWrite? It's got XX and YY and...." That's an exaggerated example, but I think you get my drift... PS, if the person is asking a question specific to themselves, reply by E-mail if possible. Perhaps you could post a note about an E-Mail address where people could send questions, thus saving net bandwidth... I think that providing a place to send E-mail questions would be one of the greatest benefits you could give to the net at large. 2) Official announcements Almost certainly not. That really is pretty promotional stuff. We sometimes have a poster not associated with the company send out info about a new product; I've always perceived it as OK because a) he's/she's not affiliated with the company and b) he or she is posting it because they're interested in the product. Others certainly may perceive this differently... 3) Uploading demo versions Uh, I pass. I can see good reasons to argue both sides, but I tend to side on the No position. >Currently the >only groups that would really apply are comp.sys.mac, comp.binaries.mac, >and comp.sys.apple (where would apple II binaries go?). A better solution >would be the formation of a Claris specific news group. A proposal for >such a new domain level has been made that was started when Telebit asked >the same question about support in the comp.dcom.modems group. I'd forget about a specific Claris group. The reason I think Telebit has a leg to stand on (it's certainly debatable) is that so many of the sites are switching to Telebit for UUCP news passing -- it's a product used directly (and heavily) to serve Usenet distribution. I'd stick to comp.sys.mac and comp.sys.apple; I can't imagine that the amount of data transmitted by Claris (if the guidelines above are accepted) will swamp the current newsgroups. >Claris will be holding off >support on this forum until we see the outcome of this discussion. Glad that Claris is interested in providing information to the net; I appreciate your efforts to provide support for the net. "General, a machine becomes human when you can't tell the difference." Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer INTERNET: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM Manual UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, hplsla, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty CREDO: You gotta be Cruel to be Kind... <*> DISCLAIMER: Do what you want with me, but leave my employers alone! <*>
daveb@llama.rtech.UUCP (Dave Brower) (01/28/88)
>In article <315@claris.UUCP> clay@claris.UUCP (Clay Maeckel) writes: >Dear new Claris product users, > Claris would like to be able to support our products here on Usenet >and are concerned about the "non-commercial" aspects of this forum. We >would like to be able to answer questions from the net, post official >announcements, and upload demo versions of our software. > >Let's take this on three levels: > > 1) Answering questions from the net Yes, that is fully appropriate. > 2) Official announcements Yes, through comp.newprod ONLY. That's what it's for. > 3) Uploading demo versions No, it's hard to justify the phone/disk space for such obviously commercial stuff. You could provide an anonymous-uucp service for demos and the like, and occasional announcements of its existance and contents would be fair. -dB "I don't care what you say, as long as you spell my name right." {amdahl, cbosgd, mtxinu, ptsfa, sun}!rtech!daveb daveb@rtech.uucp
tedj@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Ted Johnson) (01/30/88)
>> 3) Uploading demo versions > >No, it's hard to justify the phone/disk space for such obviously >commercial stuff. You could provide an anonymous-uucp service for demos >and the like, and occasional announcements of its existance and contents >would be fair. If you mean "anonymous ftp", then I whole-heartedly agree that that is a superior method to distributing demos. Another idea is to for Claris to solicit people to submit their name and e-mail address and form a "potential customer" mailing list. Then Claris can e-mail the BinHex files *directly* to the interested people. -Ted
jcc@ut-emx.UUCP (Chris Cooley) (02/01/88)
In article <870124@hpcilzb.HP.COM>, tedj@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Ted Johnson) writes: > > >> 3) Uploading demo versions > > > >No, it's hard to justify the phone/disk space for such obviously > >commercial stuff. You could provide an anonymous-uucp service for demos > >and the like, and occasional announcements of its existance and contents > >would be fair. > > If you mean "anonymous ftp", then I whole-heartedly agree that that is > a superior method to distributing demos. Yes. I would happily "call" and download files/announcements/demos from such a service. If setting up a customer relations branch into USENET is what Claris wants, this is the best way. The net would be thus used in the non-business manner of transferring people's requests to Claris personnel and the answers back to the asker. Let the net (comp.sys.mac, etc.) be for Claris' several employees' use. In regard to the product announcements, please don't post them to the net. I just finished downloading and distributing several Claris product announcements. Each one was no less than 1 laserwritten page in Times font, about 4-5 screenfulls, minimum, of announcement of a single product. Have this available at ftp. > > Another idea is to for Claris to solicit people to submit their name > and e-mail address and form a "potential customer" mailing list. Then > Claris can e-mail the BinHex files *directly* to the interested people. Ooodge. This has the look of using government-supported communications for a business use. Not very good. It would keep the net clear, but I see the Corporate Tentacles of Claris somehow taking hold of what should be more of a hobby for employees than a tool for business, similar to the commendable way THINK Technologies, Inc. (did I get that right?) lets employees act in a way not affiliated with the main business. /---------------------------------v------------------------------\ ( J. Chris Cooley |[mailpaths under construction] ) (( Univ. of Texas Comp. Center | jcc@ut-emx.UUCP )) (( Austin, TX 78712 | jcc@emx.cc.utexas.edu )) ( 512/471-3241 x417 | ) \---------------------------------^------------------------------/ \Disclaimer: You think THEY agree with THESE opinions? Hah!/ \--------------------------------------------------------/
shap@sfsup.UUCP (J.S.Shapiro) (02/02/88)
In article <870124@hpcilzb.HP.COM>, tedj@hpcilzb.UUCP writes: > > Another idea is to for Claris to solicit people to submit their name > and e-mail address and form a "potential customer" mailing list. Then > Claris can e-mail the BinHex files *directly* to the interested people. > > -Ted ARRRRGGGGHHHHH! Don't DO THIS!!!!!! THe point about non-commercial postings is the cost of the phone calls. Mailing things out puts an incredibly heavy load on the systems surrounding the sender because of the phone calls and the fact that most mailers are not smart enough to send one copy to frobozz when you send out fifteen by way of frobozz. Anonymous ftp is great. Anonymous uucp (i.e. published and accessable uucp directories) is also good. So long as the demo doesn't require that money be sent and has significant utility (i.e. is not merely advertising) I see no reason not to post it. Jon