bradn@tekig4.TEK.COM (Bradford Needham) (02/13/88)
In article <1406@csib.csi.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: >A/UX... comes preconfigured on either an internal ($4,879) >or an external ($5,549) ... upgrade package.... I'm constantly amazed at Apple's marketing sense of humor. Haven't they priced Sun's lately? Brad Needham bradn@tekig4.TEK.COM
oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (David Phillip Oster) (02/13/88)
In article <2489@tekig4.TEK.COM> bradn@tekig4.UUCP (Bradford Needham) writes: >In article <1406@csib.csi.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: >>A/UX... comes preconfigured on either an internal ($4,879) >>or an external ($5,549) ... upgrade package.... >Haven't they priced Sun's lately? I have. a Sun 3/60 is roughly the same price as a Mac II. You get the Unix for free, but it comes on a tape. So, you need to buy a tape drive. You can't do anything with it unless you also buy a disk. Conclusion: $ for Sun 3/60+disk+tape+unix > $ for MacII + disk + unix. Of course if you are buying two copies of the hardware, the Sun becomes cheaper because they can each share the tape drive and system software over their built-in ethernet. But by the time you've bought decent desktop publishing, word processing, spreadsheet, and database software the Mac IIs are cheaper again. Conclusion: it depends on what you want to do with them which is going to work out cheaper. The siganture says it all: --- David Phillip Oster --A Sun 3/60 makes a poor Macintosh II. Arpa: oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu --A Macintosh II makes a poor Sun 3/60. Uucp: {uwvax,decvax,ihnp4}!ucbvax!oster%dewey.soe.berkeley.edu
phd@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU (Paul Dietz) (02/14/88)
In article <2489@tekig4.TEK.COM> bradn@tekig4.UUCP (Bradford Needham) writes: >In article <1406@csib.csi.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: >>A/UX... comes preconfigured on either an internal ($4,879) >>or an external ($5,549) ... upgrade package.... > >I'm constantly amazed at Apple's marketing sense of humor. >Haven't they priced Sun's lately? I wonder if the powers-that-be realize just how much they have priced themselves out of the UNIX market? I gather that I wasn't alone in my vision of buying a MacII so as to ultimately run UNIX. But, I believe it is now cheaper to SELL my MacII and buy a Sun rather than just "upgrade". And with things like the NeXT machine coming RSN, Apple just might be in for a rude awakening. Apple, you messed up. Paul H. Dietz ____ ____ Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering / oo \ <_<\\\ Carnegie Mellon University /| \/ |\ \\ \\ -------------------------------------------- | | ( ) | | | ||\\ "If God had meant for penguins to fly, -->--<-- / / |\\\ / he would have given them wings." _________^__^_________/ / / \\\\-
viking@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (02/14/88)
> I have. a Sun 3/60 is roughly the same price as a Mac II. You get the Unix > for free, but it comes on a tape. So, you need to buy a tape drive. You > can't do anything with it unless you also buy a disk. Conclusion: > $ for Sun 3/60+disk+tape+unix > $ for MacII + disk + unix. With the lack of DMA disk storage and graphics support, can A/UX on a Mac II operate well when multiple tasks are running and disk swaps are taking place? Doesn't everything grind to a halt until the disk access is completed, since the CPU is the disk controller? These considerations remind me of Oster's signature: the Mac II makes a poor Sun 3/60 and vice versa...Maybe the thing to do is wait for Apples next 68030 machine before considering Unix. I *really* like my Mac II, however...sigh. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon W. Backstrom "Yah sure...we gonna have fun, you bet!" Computer Science Department Indiana University UUCP: {pyramid,ihnp4,pur-ee,rutgers}!iuvax!viking Lindley Hall 101 ARPA: viking@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu Bloomington, IN 47405 "The world has arrived at an age of cheap (812) 335-2849 (Office) complex devices of great reliability; and (812) 336-3660 (Home) something is bound to come of it." - Vannevar Bush (1945) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cswarren@enzyme.berkeley.edu (Warren Gish;133 Biochem;x3-9219) (02/14/88)
Here are a few features of Mac toolbox support under the current version of A/UX that potential buyers should be interested in knowing: (1) Mac applications can not print (2) only a single Mac application can run at a time (3) no color support for Mac applications under A/UX (4) file transfers between an A/UX disk partition and a MacOS partition must be made thru an MFS floppy disk intermediary (5) Apple estimates only about 1% or less of the current MacOS applications will run under A/UX in their present form (although the changes necessary for A/UX toolbox-compatibility are said to be quite small) (6) extra hardware must be purchased in order to use LocalTalk for printing on a LaserWriter or other communications Also, the MacII can not be configured to automatically boot A/UX when powered on -- but maybe there will be a MacOS CDEV+INIT sometime in the future that will automatically boot A/UX after the MacOS comes up? The power switch on the MacII will require that the unit be physically turned back on after an interruption of AC power, unless (I'm guessing) the power-on switch is taped down. According to MacWeek, some of the toolbox deficiencies (1-4?) are scheduled to be fixed this summer. Until then, it appears to me that the current release of the A/UX toolbox is really to allow developers to prepare for a summer A/UX marketing fest. Are there any UN*X gurus out there that can tell us what A/UX, with its System V Release 2-compatibility, lacks in comparison to what NeXT is rumored to have in its System V Release 3? Isn't Release 3 what AT&T is trying to standardize the world upon? Hey, Apple! Say it ain't so, that all us MacII owners that already bought 5 MB RAM and an 80 MB disk don't have to buy it all again just to get A/UX. @#%&! Warren Gish IS&T Evans Hall Berkeley, CA 94720 cswarren@violet.berkeley.edu
benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) (02/14/88)
In article <22966@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (David Phillip Oster) writes: > In article <2489@tekig4.TEK.COM> bradn@tekig4.UUCP (Bradford Needham) writes: > >In article <1406@csib.csi.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: > >>A/UX... comes preconfigured on either an internal ($4,879) > >>or an external ($5,549) ... upgrade package.... > >Haven't they priced Sun's lately? > I have. a Sun 3/60 is roughly the same price as a Mac II. You get the Unix > for free, but it comes on a tape. So, you need to buy a tape drive. You > can't do anything with it unless you also buy a disk. Conclusion: > $ for Sun 3/60+disk+tape+unix > $ for MacII + disk + unix. $ for Sun 3/60+disk+tape+unix > $ for MacII + disk + unix. is basically but deceptively a correct statement. With the Sun you get + a 60 Megabyte streaming backup tape drive + high resolution (1152x1900 or 1600 x 1280) + built-in ethernet + DMA i think if you tacked on the first three on the Mac the statement would no longer be true (ergo - from a hardware sense the SUN is a much better buy) ... especially when you start to consider the lack of DMA on the Mac. > Of course if you are buying two copies of the hardware, the Sun becomes > cheaper because they can each share the tape drive and system software > over their built-in ethernet. Even more so. agreed. > > But by the time you've bought decent desktop > publishing, word processing, spreadsheet, and database software the Mac IIs > are cheaper again. i don't know i can get university ingres, sc (or vc) for free.
benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) (02/14/88)
In article <865@PT.CS.CMU.EDU>, phd@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU (Paul Dietz) writes: > In article <2489@tekig4.TEK.COM> bradn@tekig4.UUCP (Bradford Needham) writes: > >In article <1406@csib.csi.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: > >>A/UX... comes preconfigured on either an internal ($4,879) > >>or an external ($5,549) ... upgrade package.... > > > >I'm constantly amazed at Apple's marketing sense of humor. > >Haven't they priced Sun's lately? > > I wonder if the powers-that-be realize just how much they have priced > themselves out of the UNIX market? I gather that I wasn't alone in > my vision of buying a MacII so as to ultimately run UNIX. But, I believe > it is now cheaper to SELL my MacII and buy a Sun rather than just > "upgrade". And with things like the NeXT machine coming RSN, Apple > just might be in for a rude awakening. I believe this is just beginning of Apple's attempt into the Unix market but somehow it is not convincing. I bought a Sun 3/60... Sun holds the cards these days tho', with apollo in steady decline (19.1 percent of the market - ComputerWorld) and Sun (27.7 %) unleashing progressively lower ended SPARC - based machines (Sun 4/110). NeXT probably doesn't stand to much of a chance unless they can demonstrate 1) something quite far beyond all the other unix boxes and 2) an evolutionary path (upgrade to higher architecture - as the Sun 3/1*0 can upgrade to a Sun 4/1*0)
kateley@apple.UUCP (Jim Kateley) (02/15/88)
In article <6982@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> cswarren@enzyme.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Warren Gish) writes: > >Here are a few features of Mac toolbox support under the current version >of A/UX that potential buyers should be interested in knowing: > > (1) Mac applications can not print > (2) only a single Mac application can run at a time > (3) no color support for Mac applications under A/UX > (4) file transfers between an A/UX disk partition and > a MacOS partition must be made thru an MFS floppy > disk intermediary ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well, not if you have Ethertalk and NCSA telnet. Stuffit 1.31 and binhex 4.0 run under A/UX, so you can stuff or binhex your files (since NCSA telnet will only xfer data fork files), then transfer them over with the FTP stuff in telnet..then unstuff or unbinhex them.... this is assuming that you have a MacII with A/UX and another Mac that can talk to it over ethernet. > (5) Apple estimates only about 1% or less of the current MacOS > applications will run under A/UX in their present form > (although the changes necessary for A/UX toolbox-compatibility > are said to be quite small) > (6) extra hardware must be purchased in order to use LocalTalk > for printing on a LaserWriter or other communications > >Also, the MacII can not be configured to automatically boot A/UX ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Huh? The SASH application is more than happy to start A/UX up for you automatically, just make it the startup application, then configure it to automatically boot... >when powered on -- but maybe there will be a MacOS CDEV+INIT sometime >in the future that will automatically boot A/UX after the MacOS comes up? >The power switch on the MacII will require that the unit be physically >turned back on after an interruption of AC power, unless (I'm guessing) >the power-on switch is taped down. > >According to MacWeek, some of the toolbox deficiencies (1-4?) are scheduled >to be fixed this summer. Until then, it appears to me that the current >release of the A/UX toolbox is really to allow developers to prepare for >a summer A/UX marketing fest. > >Are there any UN*X gurus out there that can tell us what A/UX, >with its System V Release 2-compatibility, lacks in comparison >to what NeXT is rumored to have in its System V Release 3? >Isn't Release 3 what AT&T is trying to standardize the world upon? > >Hey, Apple! Say it ain't so, that all us MacII owners that already >bought 5 MB RAM and an 80 MB disk don't have to buy it all again just >to get A/UX. @#%&! > >Warren Gish >IS&T >Evans Hall >Berkeley, CA 94720 >cswarren@violet.berkeley.edu -- Jim Kateley Applelink: kateley1 UUCP: {sun, voder, nsc, mtxinu, dual}!apple!kateley CSNET: kateley@apple.COM Disclaimer: What I say, think, or smell does not reflect any policy or stray thought by Apple Computer, Inc.
Tim_M_Dierks@cup.portal.com (02/15/88)
cswarren@enzyme.berkeley.edu writes: >Also, the MacII can not be configured to automatically boot A/UX >when powered on -- but maybe there will be a MacOS CDEV+INIT sometime >in the future that will automatically boot A/UX after the MacOS comes up? >The power switch on the MacII will require that the unit be physically >turned back on after an interruption of AC power, unless (I'm guessing) >the power-on switch is taped down. I don't know about this... Here at U of Notre Dame, we just set the A/UX drive as the startup device, and now when we start it up we get this great countdown box A/UX will start in 10...9...8...7... etc. If we cancel it, we can then escape to the Mac OS. No problem... +---------------------------------------------------+-------------------------+ | Tim Dierks Tim_M_Dierks@cup.portal.com | C4TKG3@IRISHMVS.BITNET | | {backbone}!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!Tim_M_Dierks | dierks@ndmath.UUCP | +---------------------------------------------------+ GEnie: T.DIERKS | | Amount of pizza consumed each day in the United | 136 Stanford Hall | | States (in acres): 75 - Harper's Index | Notre Dame, IN 46556 | +---------------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
hugo@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Peter Su) (02/15/88)
One thing to consider in the Mac II vs. Sun question is that most people buying suns only have to shell out a lot of bucks for one big machine to be a file server. After that, diskless nodes are about half the price of a Mac II each. Pete -- CSNET: hugo@darmouth.edu UUCP: hugo@eleazar.UUCP (Sorry) ARPA: hugo%dartmouth.edu@relay.cs.net QUOTE:"Our president's crazy! Did you hear what he said?" - Talking Heads
mailnews@allegra.UUCP (Henry Kautz's mailnews program) (02/15/88)
Here's a quick *list* price comparison of nearly identical Mac/Sun unix systems, configured to get real work done. (Eg, a Mac with only 10MB of user disk space is not considered real!) Mac II cpu,4MB,80disk+unix,PMMU 8400 external 80MB disk 3200 ethertalk card 700 4MB memory (8 total) 1200 19" 3rd party mono. monitor 2000 tape backup (40MB) 1500 TOTAL $17,000 Sun 3/50 with 4MB Ram, 144MB disk, tape backup (60MB), monochrome monitor $11,500 3/60 with 8MB Ram, 144MB disk, tape backup (60MB), monochrome monitor $16,400 MIPS: floating DMA Max SIMM slots point RAM on chip motherboard Sun 3/50 1.5 optional ? 4 0 Mac II 2? yes no 8 Sun 3/60 3 yes yes 24 0
cswarren@enzyme.berkeley.edu (Warren Gish;133 Biochem;x3-9219) (02/16/88)
In article <7391@apple.UUCP> (Jim Kateley) writes: }In article <6982@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> (Warren Gish) writes: }} (4) file transfers between an A/UX disk partition and }} a MacOS partition must be made thru an MFS floppy }} disk intermediary }Well, not if you have Ethertalk and NCSA telnet. Stuffit 1.31 and }binhex 4.0 run under A/UX, so you can stuff or binhex your files (since }NCSA telnet will only xfer data fork files), then transfer them over with }the FTP stuff in telnet..then unstuff or unbinhex them.... this is }assuming that you have a MacII with A/UX and another Mac that can }talk to it over ethernet. Your tip is appreciated, but I was pointing out the apparent difficulty with intra-Mac file transfers. BTW: Using MFS floppy intermediaries, is it straight forward to transfer a file that is larger than the storage capacity of a single floppy disk? }}Also, the MacII can not be configured to automatically boot A/UX }Huh? The SASH application is more than happy to start A/UX up for you }automatically, just make it the startup application, then configure it }to automatically boot... My apologies for the error...I was simply echoing what an Apple sales rep. told me at a pre-release introduction to A/UX about 3 weeks ago. In fareness to comp.sys.mac readers and Apple, I should have also pointed out that I have only ~5 minutes of experience using A/UX. }Jim Kateley }Applelink: kateley1 }UUCP: {sun, voder, nsc, mtxinu, dual}!apple!kateley }CSNET: kateley@apple.COM }Disclaimer: What I say, think, or smell does not reflect any policy or } stray thought by Apple Computer, Inc. Warren Gish IS&T Evans Hall UCBerkeley 94720 cswarren@violet.berkeley.edu
phssra@emory.uucp (Scott R. Anderson) (02/16/88)
In article <22966@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu.UUCP (David Phillip Oster) writes: >In article <2489@tekig4.TEK.COM> bradn@tekig4.UUCP (Bradford Needham) writes: >>In article <1406@csib.csi.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: >>>A/UX... comes preconfigured on either an internal ($4,879) >>>or an external ($5,549) ... upgrade package.... >> >>Haven't they priced Sun's lately? > >I have. a Sun 3/60 is roughly the same price as a Mac II. You get the Unix >for free, but it comes on a tape. So, you need to buy a tape drive. You >can't do anything with it unless you also buy a disk. Conclusion: >$ for Sun 3/60+disk+tape+unix > $ for MacII + disk + unix. Well, if you don't mind backing up your 80MB hard disk onto floppies :-). I suspect that most people will wish they have a tape drive when it comes time to preserve the UNIX system that arrives on one of those oh-so-volatile hard disks from Apple. Let's see now...Apple's 40 MB tape drive is listed at $1500, add it on to the $10000 for the A/UX development system with ethertalk card, and you'll pay $11500, which is more than a Sun would cost. And the Sun has a 19" monitor, to boot (tack on $2000 to get one for the Mac). >But by the time you've bought decent desktop >publishing, word processing, spreadsheet, and database software the Mac IIs >are cheaper again. Well, if this is what you want, then why buy A/UX? For many people, what comes standard with Sun UNIX is what they want and need: compilers, graphics, editors, ethernet, etc. There may be easier-to-use implementations under the Mac OS, but the UNIX versions are tried and true, and are either standard or free/cheap (e.g. TeX is ~$500 for the Mac OS). I think the rule here is: if you want UNIX, get a Sun; if you want the Mac OS, but sometimes need UNIX (or vice-versa), get a Mac II. (Despite my defense of Sun, I believe there are powerful reasons to get a Mac, the most important of which is modularity; i.e. you can get a lot of work done without all of the standard hardware that makes a Sun so expensive.) * Scott Robert Anderson * ** gatech!emoryu1!phssra * * * ** phssra@emoryu1.{bitnet,csnet} * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
kateley@apple.UUCP (Jim Kateley) (02/17/88)
In article <6989@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> cswarren@enzyme.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Warren Gish) writes: >Your tip is appreciated, but I was pointing out the apparent difficulty >with intra-Mac file transfers. BTW: Using MFS floppy intermediaries, >is it straight forward to transfer a file that is larger than >the storage capacity of a single floppy disk? Hmmmm, well if you can stuffit it so it fits on a 400K disk, your all set. Otherwise,.......I suppose you can use Ethertalk or you could hook a Mac up as a terminal thru the serial port then use xmodem or kermit. > >Warren Gish >IS&T >Evans Hall >UCBerkeley 94720 >cswarren@violet.berkeley.edu -- Jim Kateley Applelink: kateley1 UUCP: {sun, voder, nsc, mtxinu, dual}!apple!kateley CSNET: kateley@apple.COM Disclaimer: What I say, think, or smell does not reflect any policy or stray thought by Apple Computer, Inc.
tecot@apple.UUCP (Ed Tecot) (02/17/88)
In article <2489@tekig4.TEK.COM> bradn@tekig4.UUCP (Bradford Needham) writes: >In article <1406@csib.csi.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: >>A/UX... comes preconfigured on either an internal ($4,879) >>or an external ($5,549) ... upgrade package.... > >I'm constantly amazed at Apple's marketing sense of humor. >Haven't they priced Sun's lately? > > >Brad Needham >bradn@tekig4.TEK.COM I was shocked to see this as well. So I did a little research. Some of the information above is misleading, here are the details: M8011 internal A/UX bundle $3182 contains: (1) M0692 internal HD80 with A/UX (1) M0693 A/UX accessory kit M8033 Mac II A/UX upgrade kit $4879 contains: (1) M8011 internal A/UX bundle (1) M0221 PMMU chip (2) M0219 2MB RAM Exp. Kit Kits with an external disk are $100 extra. What this means: Those of you who already have the PMMU and necessary RAM need not spend another 5K to get A/UX, all you need is one of the bundle kits at either $3182 or $3282. Some interesting notes: The retail price on an Apple HD80SC internal is $3199 (I called Priority One for this price). 2MB expansion kits are $599 apiece (if you can find a lower price, buy it - this is a good price). The remaining $499 in the M8033 is for the PMMU. What surprises me: Is in retrospect, just how reasonable this is. A/UX is essentially free with the purchase of an 80 meg hard disk from Apple. Now before you go say how high that price is (a Jasmine 80 meg drive is about half that price), keep in mind that this is RETAIL, and actual prices will come down fast (Priority One sells the 80SC internal for $2779, and I'm sure you can beat that). In addition, those of you who don't insist on Apple labels on everything can go to third parties for the PMMU and RAM. In summary: Before I did my little research, my opinion was similar to what has shown up here on the net. Now, with a little more information at my disposal, it all seems quite reasonable. The moral: Look before you flame (I didn't, and I got hosed). _emt
gillies@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu (02/18/88)
The appalling thing is that Apple told users to go out and buy an 80
megabyte disk so they could run A/UX. Now Apple turns around, says
"throw away your disk, purchase OUR disk instead". I'm suprised their
is no outcry at this bait & switch tactic.
It reminds me of the ticket scalper that charges $16.50 for the NFL
tickets, and $100 for the envelope. You don't buy the envelope, you
don't get the tickets......
Don Gillies {ihnp4!uiucdcs!gillies} U of Illinois
{gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu}benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) (02/18/88)
In article <8659@allegra.UUCP#, mailnews@allegra.UUCP (Henry Kautz's mailnews program) writes:
# Mac II
# cpu,4MB,80disk+unix,PMMU 8400
# external 80MB disk 3200
# ethertalk card 700
# 4MB memory (8 total) 1200
# 19" 3rd party mono. monitor 2000
# tape backup (40MB) 1500
# TOTAL $17,000
Does the Mac show up with 4 bitplanes or eight?
The Sun 3/60 comes in with 8.
# Sun
# 3/50 with 4MB Ram, 144MB disk, tape backup (60MB), mono monitor = $11,500
# 3/60 with 8MB Ram, 144MB disk, tape backup (60MB), mono monitor = $16,400
And after it all said and done, the Sun's with DMA winds up faster
and can run NeWS (which is a real win). And I would pick a
user configurable (icon-based) desktop with user configurable menus
any day (i'm talking about Suntools/SunView)...plus running under NeWS
you get it all ... NeWS,SunView and X (soon SunView II). wetter@tybalt.caltech.edu (Pierce T. Wetter) (02/18/88)
> >M8011 internal A/UX bundle $3182 > contains: (1) M0692 internal HD80 with A/UX > (1) M0693 A/UX accessory kit > >Some interesting notes: >The retail price on an Apple HD80SC internal is $3199 (I called Wait!!!! That means that its _cheaper_ to buy a 80 meg Hard Disk with A/UX on it. Delete unix, and then use the disk then to buy the disk plain? Pierce Wetter "All my friends and I are crazy. That's the only thing that keeps us sane." -------------------------------------------- wetter@tybalt.caltech.edu --------------------------------------------
dwb@apple.UUCP (David W. Berry) (02/18/88)
>>> NOTE: WHAT FOLLOWS SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS OFFICIAL APPLE ANYTHING! <<< In article <6982@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> cswarren@enzyme.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Warren Gish) writes: > (2) only a single Mac application can run at a time > (3) no color support for Mac applications under A/UX > (4) file transfers between an A/UX disk partition and > a MacOS partition must be made thru an MFS floppy > disk intermediary > (5) Apple estimates only about 1% or less of the current MacOS > applications will run under A/UX in their present form > (although the changes necessary for A/UX toolbox-compatibility > are said to be quite small) Included in the list that does run though are: FullPaint, FullWrite, MacDraw, MacProject, Adobe Illustrator and host of thousands, well hundreds, well at least 10. On the bright side, several applications I've written under MPW have compiled under A/UX and run just fine, and vice-versa. > (6) extra hardware must be purchased in order to use LocalTalk > for printing on a LaserWriter or other communications The LaserWriter is supported as a serial printer. Though as indicated above, the toolbox does not yet support printing. Transcript works fine. > >Also, the MacII can not be configured to automatically boot A/UX >when powered on -- but maybe there will be a MacOS CDEV+INIT sometime >in the future that will automatically boot A/UX after the MacOS comes up? >The power switch on the MacII will require that the unit be physically >turned back on after an interruption of AC power, unless (I'm guessing) >the power-on switch is taped down. Hmm. You got misinformed on this one. The MacII boots A/UX automagically just fine. You set the startup application to "Sash" the standalone shell, a macintosh application which let's you do all kinds of nifty stuff. You set sash to automatically boot unix after a timeout (default = 20 sec.). Voila, A/UX boots automatically and you get a chance to interrupt it in case you want to play macintosh for awhile. You are, however, correct in that if power is interrupted you have to manually intervene to get the system powered up. Perhaps the solution is to get a UPS :-) > >According to MacWeek, some of the toolbox deficiencies (1-4?) are scheduled >to be fixed this summer. Until then, it appears to me that the current >release of the A/UX toolbox is really to allow developers to prepare for >a summer A/UX marketing fest. Actually, it's quite usuable, the restriction that really hurts it not allowing printing, but for most of what I do I don't print very often. > >Are there any UN*X gurus out there that can tell us what A/UX, >with its System V Release 2-compatibility, lacks in comparison >to what NeXT is rumored to have in its System V Release 3? >Isn't Release 3 what AT&T is trying to standardize the world upon? > >Hey, Apple! Say it ain't so, that all us MacII owners that already >bought 5 MB RAM and an 80 MB disk don't have to buy it all again just >to get A/UX. @#%&! A/UX is only distributed on 80MB drives, so yes, you get to buy one of those all over. The memory you have is perfectly usable though. > >Warren Gish >IS&T >Evans Hall >Berkeley, CA 94720 >cswarren@violet.berkeley.edu -- David W. Berry dwb@well.uucp dwb@Delphi dwb@apple.com 973-5168@408.MaBell Disclaimer: Apple doesn't even know I have an opinion and certainly wouldn't want if they did.
rob@uokmax.UUCP (Robert K. Shull) (02/19/88)
In article <1675@ssc-vax.UUCP> benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) writes: >In article <865@PT.CS.CMU.EDU>, phd@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU (Paul Dietz) writes: >> In article <2489@tekig4.TEK.COM> bradn@tekig4.UUCP (Bradford Needham) writes: >> >I'm constantly amazed at Apple's marketing sense of humor. >> >Haven't they priced Sun's lately? >> I wonder if the powers-that-be realize just how much they have priced >> themselves out of the UNIX market? I gather that I wasn't alone in >I believe this is just beginning of Apple's attempt into the Unix market >but somehow it is not convincing. I bought a Sun 3/60... Why assume that Apple's policy is never going to change? They were already discussing changes in availability/pricing at Uniforum. Your making a judgment less than a week after the product announcement. Also, Sun's version of Unix still has major problems after years of upgrades, especially with networking. The networking code in A/UX can do things that are not currently possible with Sun's. Also, consider support. Sun is fine if you're with a major company or university (someone who purchase hundreds of machines), but support is extremely expensive for an individual. Unless Apple departs from their usual policies, support will be tolerable (expensive compared to most personal computers, very inexpensive compared to most professional machines) Anyway, good luck with your Sun. Robert -- Robert K. Shull University of Oklahoma, Engineering Computer Network ihnp4!occrsh!uokmax!rob CIS 73765,1254 Delphi RKSHULL Opinions contained herein in no way reflect those of the University of Oklahoma.
kwallich@hpsmtc1.HP.COM (Ken Wallich) (02/20/88)
>I haven't heard anyone say "throw away your disk". Don't you realize that >you will "need" 160 MB to run a Unix system? ---------- What about those of us who chose to buy 160MB discs (almost everyones 160MB drives are cheeper that Apples 80MB drive anyway :-). We now are being told we MUST buy the drives we previously refused to (after all, they were overpriced and slow), if we want to get A/UX. Someone from Apple posted a response somewhere around here telling us that "The Apple tape drive is NOT CURRENTLY SUPPORTED UNDER A/UX". Tells me I don't have much choice, so my choice is gonna be to buy someone elses UNIX box, and use my MacII to run "BetaWare" like Fullwrite (:-). brap -------------------- Ken Wallich *My views are mine, and mine alone* Consultant "No mystical energy field controls MY destiny" DCI kwallich@hpsmtc1.HP.COM @Hewlett Packard ...hplabs!hpsmtc1!kwallich "If we weren't all crazy, we'd all go INSANE"
phil@apple.UUCP (Phil Ronzone) (02/20/88)
In article <76000127@uiucdcsp> gillies@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >The appalling thing is that Apple told users to go out and buy an 80 >megabyte disk so they could run A/UX. Now Apple turns around, says >"throw away your disk, purchase OUR disk instead". I'm suprised their >is no outcry at this bait & switch tactic. Sigh. Well, let me apologize for the fact that we here at Apple do NOT have the most perfect corporation in the world. (I do think we have a corporate plan for implementing a perfect coporation in the next quarter however.) :-) :-) :-) The Apple Tape Backup Unit is a SCSI device. The A/UX SCSI manager is, by design, exceptionally robust. To ensure that the SCSI manager meets the design goals of being very very robust, the source code was frozen at a certain point. The Apple Tape Backup Unit was not ready for the A/UX source code freeze. So, voila, no A/UX native support for the tape unit, hence, aaarrrggghhhhh (Apple Marketing & Sales dying screams into the sunset ...) no A/UX distribution on tape. We did go begging on our knees to the Mac OS guys doing the Mac tape unit software, and the next (soon very very soon) of release of Mac OS software for the tape unit WILL support dumping and restoring of A/UX partitions on an Apple HD80. NO plans right now for A/UX distribution on tape however. Why you ask (scream)? Well, to the Apple factory, A/UX is no simple product. For example, in ONE fell swoop, the A/UX manuals (all 6000+ pages of 'em) DOUBLED the entire amount of Apple documentation in print. More important are the "bundles", or configurations that the factory must produce. I.e., full A/UX systems, A/UX on an internal hard disk without a PMMU, A/UX on an internal hard disk WITH a PMMU, A/UX on an external hard disk with and without a PMMU, with and without various extra DRAM upgrades, with and without manuals ... A tape distribution right now would almost DOUBLE some of the configurations. And all of this on a factory which likes to think in terms of a few floppies (System Disk, Utilities, etc.). But, we are getting there. Believe me, we winced a lot when we realized that the tape unit would not be supported in the first release. And, as for cost, well, PLEASE make sure that you are comparing retail to retail! I was "beat upon" by a University professor for being much more expensive that his favorite workstation. I pointed out that he was comparing our price for a purchase of 100 units .vs. the price for brand-X for 1200 units. End result, our price for 1000 units was cheaper than brand-X at 1200. Anyway, A/UX is our hard work - we here in Engineering finally get our turn to be on the receiving end of criticisms, suggestions, etc. - and we DO listen hard. Just like a Mac .vs. a PC, try A/UX. You will like it. Remember - it is a Mac. Under A/UX or the Mac OS, you have the Toolbox and the Mac look and feel. Ain't nobody else got that ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philip K. Ronzone, A/UX Technical Manager APPLELINK: RONZONE1 Apple Computer, Mail Stop 27AJ, 10500 N. DeAnza Blvd. Cupertino, CA 95014 UUCP: ...!{sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual,unisoft}!apple!phil
rob@uokmax.UUCP (Robert K. Shull) (02/22/88)
In article <11540139@hpsmtc1.HP.COM> kwallich@hpsmtc1.HP.COM (Ken Wallich) writes: >CURRENTLY SUPPORTED UNDER A/UX". Tells me I don't have much choice, so my >choice is gonna be to buy someone elses UNIX box, and use my MacII to run >"BetaWare" like Fullwrite (:-). >Ken Wallich *My views are mine, and mine alone* My choice is to wait a little while, until Apple's policies (and implementation) steady down (like they always have in the past). I've had too much experience with Sun to ever consider purchasing one of their boxes personally, and been told too much about the 386 versions of Unix (by people I trust) to want one of those. -- Robert K. Shull University of Oklahoma, Engineering Computer Network ihnp4!occrsh!uokmax!rob CIS 73765,1254 Delphi RKSHULL Opinions contained herein in no way reflect those of the University of Oklahoma.
sbb@esquire.UUCP (Stephen B. Baumgarten) (02/23/88)
In article <11540139@hpsmtc1.HP.COM> kwallich@hpsmtc1.HP.COM (Ken Wallich) writes: >What about those of us who chose to buy 160MB discs (almost everyones 160MB >drives are cheeper that Apples 80MB drive anyway :-). We now are being >told we MUST buy the drives we previously refused to (after all, they were >overpriced and slow), if we want to get A/UX. Someone from Apple posted a >response somewhere around here telling us that "The Apple tape drive is NOT >CURRENTLY SUPPORTED UNDER A/UX". Tells me I don't have much choice, so my >choice is gonna be to buy someone elses UNIX box, and use my MacII to run >"BetaWare" like Fullwrite (:-). A Unix that doesn't support ANY tape devices? And how do we do backups? I like the Mac, and I like Unix, but there's no way I'd use a Unix that didn't support some form of backup device (other than floppies -- I'm not too fond of doing 100 disk backups once a week :-)) even if it were free (which it ain't). Face it guys (including you guys at Apple) -- the Sun folks have us here. I'm looking forward to the *real* A/UX release... And in response to the complaint from one of the Apple folk that including tapes would double the number of "packages" that had to be supported, how about selling things in separate packages, but just charging differently depending on whether they're bought together? That way you have 1 box for manuals, 1 box for A/UX on disk, 1 box for A/UX on tape, 1 box for PMMU, etc., not an ever-expanding number of "packages." Geesh, guys, this product isn't exactly going to be sold like Mircrosoft Word... it's UNIX! People aren't going to be walking into their local dealers in droves and picking the things off the shelves ("do you also have the documentation in blue?"). There, I feel much better. :-) -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." ...!cmcl2!esquire!sbb | - David Letterman
hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Robert Joseph Hammen) (02/23/88)
In article <1050@uokmax.UUCP> rob@uokmax.UUCP (Robert K. Shull) types: > > Also, consider support. Sun is fine if you're with a major company or >university (someone who purchase hundreds of machines), but support is >extremely expensive for an individual. Unless Apple departs from their >usual policies, support will be tolerable (expensive compared to most >personal computers, very inexpensive compared to most professional machines) This brings to mind another question: who exactly is going to sell A/UX? I presume that there will be some sort of dealer qualification program (like there was with the Mac II), but sometimes I shudder to think what dealers who can't even sell/support RAM upgrades would do with something like A/UX. Or will the product be sold only through the corporate sales force? ========================================================================= Robert Hammen Computer Applications hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu Delphi: HAMMEN GEnie: R.Hammen CI$: 70701,2104
smethers@psu-cs.UUCP (Paul Smethers) (02/25/88)
>Mac II > >cpu,4MB,80disk+unix,PMMU 8400 >external 80MB disk 3200 >ethertalk card 700 >4MB memory (8 total) 1200 >19" 3rd party mono. monitor 2000 >tape backup (40MB) 1500 >TOTAL $17,000 > >Sun >3/50 with 4MB Ram, 144MB disk, tape backup (60MB), monochrome monitor > $11,500 >3/60 with 8MB Ram, 144MB disk, tape backup (60MB), monochrome monitor > $16,400 > > MIPS: floating DMA Max SIMM slots > point RAM on > chip motherboard >Sun 3/50 1.5 optional ? 4 0 >Mac II 2? yes no 8 >Sun 3/60 3 yes yes 24 0 Well I don't know the SUN addon market at all but I know the Mac one very well and your total for the MacII is way off. Memory prices are approaching $450 per 2 meg simm. It's possible to get a CMS 80 meg drive for about $1400. Tape backup systems can be had for a $1000. A smart buyer can have the system proposed for about $3000 less if he gets all his memory from discount suppliers, and thats still paying retail for the mac and A/UX. But it gets even better. Try this same system out: $4,000 - MacII - 1 meg ram - 1 floppy and keyboard. $2,000 - 19 inch third party monitor monochrome. $2,000 - 8 megs ram from anyone but apple. $2,000 - fast 150 meg hard drive. (magicdrive - this month's macworld) $700 - ethernet. $700 - 60 meg tape drive. $400 - PMMU. $500 - A/UX. $12,100 - Total. The point is that the aftermarket for the mac can offer some great deals and that I don't know if thats true of SUN. Also the low end SUNS have no Nubus and that is one worthwile attachment. You may question my A/UX price but what no-one has said is that you can get right - to copy licenses for $483 per copy, so one doesn't have to pay apples inflated hardware prices. One other nice attachment that I don't know that sun offers yet is an add-on 68030 with 68882 at 25mhrz for about $2500 (Macintosh Today, Feb 23, page 3) so your system can run at 8-10 mips for about $15,000 total. But the truth of the matter is that the SUN at 3 mips is probably faster than a MacII at 10. It's disk access is probably 10-20 times faster. SUN UNIX is cutting edge top of the line, and if apple did well they probably copied it. For UNIX work there is still no choice but SUN, and with their mantle of leadership you know your machine will be at the forefront of new technology, namely SPARC. Lets face it, SUN leads the industry around by the nose. BUt I'm just happy to have the chance to have UNIX on a Mac. Perhaps if they get an 030 MacII made they'll be able to skip the PMMU and save some cash. Randy Hill SmethersBarnes (My opinion's are my own, and damn good ones too!)