jdf@pbhyc.UUCP (Jack Fine) (02/17/88)
I am fairly new to the Mac system. What I need to do is decide what kinds and brands of software our Company should order to run on the Mac. I am particularly interested in everyones opinion on word processors. How is Righnow? Fullwrite? Macwrite? Wordperfect? MSWord and so on.. And presentation packages ie Powerpoint. Spreadsheets and databases ie. Excel and Filemaker. Data comm packages? Microphone okay? What else would you suggest? Thanks a bunch! Jack
chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (02/17/88)
>I am fairly new to the Mac system. What I need to do is decide what kinds >and brands of software our Company should order to run on the Mac. I am >particularly interested in everyones opinion on word processors. How is >Righnow? Fullwrite? Macwrite? Wordperfect? MSWord and so on.. And >presentation packages ie Powerpoint. Spreadsheets and databases ie. Excel >and Filemaker. Data comm packages? Microphone okay? What else would you >suggest? Oh, boy. I get to let people yell at me again. Now, to start up some controversy with some recommendations: Word Processors: What do you need? A good, solid, low end product? A fully-blown, turbo-driven version? They're really two markets, not one. Low end WP's. Look at the new Macwrite. Look at Writenow. Look at Microsoft Write, especially if you think you might need more power later and want a compatible upgrade path. High End WP's. If you need a power processor, defer your purchase as long as possible. This market is just starting to get interesting, and unless you're ready to commit before the party is over, I'd wait, unless you're willing to put down bucks and then convert to something else when the dust settles (which is MORE bucks, if you guess wrong). If I were walking into the WP market today, I'd probably buy Microsoft Write and see what happens in the Word/FullWrite wars. here's how the high-end WP's look to me: o WordPerfect. Very disappointing. For folks who need WP compatibility with the PC world only, or who already know and love it. Not for real Mac folks. o Microsoft Word. I got an interesting rumor for a highly placed, unnamed source (not at Microsoft, tho) that Word 4.0 for the Mac will be out (or at least announced) in March. Let's be conservative and say April. Supposedly, it's primarily cleanup and performance enhancments (significantly faster), not a lot of new functionality. If I'm right, you heard it here first. If not, well, never mind... o FullWrite Pro. Just bought by Ashton-Tate. The demo/beta versions have folks (including me) drooling. The buyout has implications, whether it'll be good or bad is too soon to tell (I'm hopeful -- AAS was technically sound, but not a good marketing or business organization. A-T can take the software, which is nifty, and turn it into a product, which is critical). Latest date on shipment is April. I'll believe it if I see it. There's a couple of other new, high end programs that'll be announced or start shipping this year. Too early to really tell whether they'll be factors, but I wouldn't want to be a startup in this market. My preferences? I'm rooting for fullwrite. What time I've spent with it has been fun. it's amazingly maclike, very powerful, and intuitive. It's also an amazing memory hog -- Mac+ owners take note. Unless you've got lots of memory (and my two machines both have 2 meg, and that's starting to seem small....) you better stand ready to toss out those INIT's, turn off those disk caches, and get rid of Multifinder. My two biggest worries about FWP are that it won't ship in April (or if it does, it'll be buggy) and that it's simply too big to fit on most Mac's. If I had to toss out QuickKeys and Multifinder for Fullwrite, I wouldn't. this may come back to haunt them. And if they don't ship in April, they're in deep trouble. The other problem FWP has is Microsoft. If, as the rumor says, they DO ship or announce Word 4.0 in March or April, and if it clears up the performance and interface issues that plague word (It's not really Multifinder compatible. It doesn't crash, but it sure doesn't like other processes to exist; also, it doesn't like Suitcase, it doesn't like things playing with it's menubar, and it does funny things to internal events) so that it's a fully cooperative player on the Mac game, rather than a ported PC program with a mouse, then FWP has problems. Switching to a new Word Processor is a royal pain, and if Word gets its act together, lots of folks (myself included) won't bother, even if FWP turns out to be better than sliced bread. Inertia's a big market force -- you may not love Word, but it's easier to stay with something you've invested a LOT of time with than rebuild all that stuff new unles you get more in return. The question is whether FWP will deliver that. On to others: presentation packages. Who cares? This is a market in search of a reason, a great hype with little substance. Powerpoint does some nice things, but how many people REALLY need something that can't be done in their Word Processor? Seriously, now.... Spreadsheets: if you need power, buy Excel. If you don't, buy Works. Microsoft finally does some product right. And does it twice. Databases: again, a high-end low end split. High end: 4th Dimension. It slices bread. It'll probably vacuum my house once I find the right command. The documentation gives you hernias. This is Neat Stuff. Low end: A dogfight between Filemaker plus and Reflex plus. I prefer Filemaker. It's got better report creation procedures. Reflex is a little more powerful on the database end. Either looks good. Terminal packages: I use Red Ryder. I love it. I hate it. Typical reaction to the program. It's butt ugly, but it works. Multifinder compatible (although Word won't let it download in the background. foo!). I used to use MacTerminal, but outgrew it. Microphone? Supposed to be okay. Now, THAT should start a discussion... Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM Delphi: CHUQ What do you mean 'You don't really want to hurt her?' I'm a Super-Villain! That's my Schtick!
sysop@stech.UUCP (Jan Harrington) (02/17/88)
in article <953@pbhyc.UUCP>, jdf@pbhyc.UUCP (Jack Fine) says: > > > > I am fairly new to the Mac system. What I need to do is decide what kinds > and brands of software our Company should order to run on the Mac. I am > particularly interested in everyones opinion on word processors. How is > Righnow? Fullwrite? Macwrite? Wordperfect? MSWord and so on.. And > presentation packages ie Powerpoint. Spreadsheets and databases ie. Excel > and Filemaker. Data comm packages? Microphone okay? What else would you > suggest? > This is the database lady, up on her soapbox again ... Filemaker is an excellent piece of software, but it is NOT a database -- it is a file manager, and the difference can be significant. Whether or not you should purchase it depends on what your data management needs are. If you will be handling data that can be stored in a single table, such as a mailing list or a customer list, then a file manager can do the trick. However, if you need to relate more than one table (e.g., a customer list and a list of orders placed by your customers) then a file manager will not suffice, since a file manager can only handle one table of data (a "file", though the term is a bad one) at a time. Database management systems can handle multiple tables of data. At the low end there is an excellent program called Reflex Plus. It can handle multiple tables, but can't be used for stand-alone application development. If you will need multiple tables and don't want to deal with a complex program, look closely at Reflex Plus. It is also reasonably priced. At the high end are "the big four", which are DBMSs that can be used for application development -- 4th Dimension, Double Helix II, dBase Mac, and Omnis 3 Plus. These are all powerful but complex pieces of software. They are also relatively expensive. Look carefully at your needs before you make a decision, since in this day of rising DBMS prices, a mistake can certainly be costly. Jan Harrington, sysop Scholastech Telecommunications ihnp4!husc6!amcad!stech!sysop or allegra!stech!sysop ******************************************************************************** Miscellaneous profundity: "No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai ********************************************************************************
cramer%clem@Sun.COM (Sam Cramer) (02/18/88)
In article <42125@sun.uucp> chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >Spreadsheets: if you need power, buy Excel. If you don't, buy Works. >Microsoft finally does some product right. And does it twice. Or consider MacCalc. Faster than Excel and it gives you DTP-quality control over spreadsheet formatting for $80 (street price). It's missing graphing and macros, though. Disclaimer: I know the developer of MacCalc. Regardless, I think it is a very good spreadsheet. Sam Cramer {cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!cramer cramer@sun.com
sbb@esquire.UUCP (Stephen B. Baumgarten) (02/18/88)
In article <42125@sun.uucp> chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >Terminal packages: I use Red Ryder. I love it. I hate it. Typical reaction >to the program. It's butt ugly, but it works. Multifinder compatible >(although Word won't let it download in the background. foo!). I used to use >MacTerminal, but outgrew it. Microphone? Supposed to be okay. > >Now, THAT should start a discussion... While I almost always agree with Chuq, and while the parts of his software overview I omitted (for space reasons) were well thought out and well written, I felt I should mention Versaterm as an excellent, low-cost ($79) terminal package featuring good, FAST VT100/102 emulation, correctly implemented Kermit protocol for multiple file transfers (also supports long packets), and a user interface that's a joy to use. Works perfectly with Multifinder. The only thing it lacks is a high-level scripting capability (it can do basic logons OK, though). For that you need Red. On the other hand, Red doesn't even come close to Navigator for getting around Compuserve, so... Just thought I'd put in a good word for a good product. -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." ...!cmcl2!esquire!sbb | - David Letterman
merchant@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Peter Merchant) (02/18/88)
In article <42125@sun.uucp>, Chuq Von Rospach writes: > On to others: presentation packages. Who cares? This is a market in search > of a reason, a great hype with little substance. Powerpoint does some nice > things, but how many people REALLY need something that can't be done in > their Word Processor? Seriously, now.... I've never played with PowerPoint or Cricket Presents... or anything like that. Personally, I'm dull and boring and use MacDraw to create any diagrams that I need to show off to people. Possibly Cricket Draw would give you foofier special effects. > Spreadsheets: if you need power, buy Excel. If you don't, buy Works. > Microsoft finally does some product right. And does it twice. Spreadsheets, I would wait on. Full Impact, from Ashton-Tate, looks like it could sneak in. The press releases look good, so we'll see how the final blows look. Another good thing to think about, honestly, is Modern Jazz. Back when it was Galaxy, Lotus was showing it at it's booth at MacWorld and I was very impressed. For those of you who like integrated software, it is definitely worth looking at. Also, keep an eye out for Lotus 1-2-3 for the Macintosh, coming soon to a store near you. --- "Touch my bumper..." Peter Merchant (merchant@eleazar.UUCP)
moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) (02/20/88)
No yelling, but a few addenums to Chuq's comments: In article <42125@sun.uucp> chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >Word Processors Almost word-to-word agreement here; I am a FullWrite booster (I'm using the pre-release version), but until I see the released package, no recommendations. It sure looks good from here, though. Quick notes: I am *extremely* skeptical about Word 4.0 (did your rumor mention a thesaurus?); Microsoft Works has a nice low-end WP (especially when used with that Spelling DA that runs with Works); does anyone have comments on Ashton-Tate's previous Macintosh documentation -- i.e. will they re-write the AA docs (I liked the reference manual quite a bit). They'd have to go quite a ways to screw the FullWrite manuals up as much as the Word manuals... >On to others: presentation packages. Who cares? This is a market in search >of a reason, a great hype with little substance. Powerpoint does some nice >things, but how many people REALLY need something that can't be done in >their Word Processor? Seriously, now.... Actually, Chuq, there is a *BIG* demand for these things, if several big corporations in the Seattle dBUG group are any measure. These guys just love color slides and presentation transparencies, with color. So far, they do it on IBM PC's -- BUT WITHOUT A GRAPHIC INTERFACE! They have to give the coordinates to POLYGONS to draw the darned things! And the turn-around time is incredible... I don't know if they haven't investigated the PC field very well, but the Mac II interface in WYSWIG with Cricket Presents or (rumored inferior) MS PowerPoint, which does all sorts of color dithering effects, combined with an in-house slide proccess like the Mirius box, gives them a greater turn-around time... and these people would greatly prefer to create the slides themselves (presentations before the Executive Board are nerve-wracking enough). There are also packages which allow you to transform PICT images into slides, and do touch-up there, but Cricket Presents does have some nice touches for slides. Admittedly, though, you have to be mid-to-large size company to make this profitable -- smaller companies might if they skip the Mirus box and use the "send-by-modem" companies each product has affiliated with them. >Spreadsheets: if you need power, buy Excel. If you don't, buy Works. >Microsoft finally does some product right. And does it twice. If you want a REALLY cheap shareware spreadsheet, take a look at BiPlane. I'm not a spreadsheet guru, but it looked very good to me ($40, lots of features, has a DA which accesses the spreadsheets in other applications). Now is as good a time to mention it as any: for most people getting a Mac+ or higher for home, who are going to be using it for general papers, finances and records, I strongly recommend MS Works (which Chuq did also). Sometimes I think the darned thing should be bundled with the Mac. It's not perfect, but the spreadsheet and word processor are very adequate (get the spelling checker DA though), the communications package is much improved and now viable, and the database is fine for simple databases (no relations, and everything on a page) -- kind of very-low-end, but a lot of people don't go beyond that. >Terminal packages: I use Red Ryder. I love it. I hate it. Typical reaction >to the program. It's butt ugly, but it works. Multifinder compatible >(although Word won't let it download in the background. foo!). I used to use >MacTerminal, but outgrew it. Microphone? Supposed to be okay. I use VersaTerm. I *LOVE* VersaTerm. I used to say, "The best communications package when hooking up to a Unix or mainframe system", but so many of my friends have bought it for telecommunications work that I now make no apologies -- they found it very easy to learn. Just dynamite, and THE machine for hooking up to Unix. MicroPhone's new version looks very powerful, but complex -- not for the neophyte. OTHER SOFTWARE: We missed graphics packages. My vote: SuperPaint. Yeah, it's outclassed some by Canvas at this point, but their new version is out in a few months, and you can count on Silicon Beach for good work. The easiest interface for general-purpose paint/draw tools (though the draw tools are inferior to MacDraw (current version) and MacDraft at the moment. If you REALLY need fancy object-oriented graphics, get the new version of MacDraw, especially if you have color. OOh-AAh. Utilities: I always recommend that people get used to the Mac before they buy utilities. Get frustrated with a few of the slow points, and then spring Font/DA Juggler (yes, just bought it, better than SuitCase (but for how long? For HOW LONG?), and with several GREAT utilities), DiskTop 3.01, SmartScrap and PictureBase on them. There are people who view me unto a god when I showed them DiskTop 3.01. Utilities are great for guru status... Hard Disk Software: We've beat backup software into the ground (I like DiskFit, but frankly, I'm waiting for a videotape back-up); optimizers are a must for me (on a 20 MB, you notice the clutter faster). DiskExpress isn't as fast as PowerUp, nor as easy, but it seems to make things more optimal. It's a toss-up on that. I could mention games, but it sounds like you're talking about serious software... (some of the best stuff is PD and shareware -- nothing makes my pulse pound like Air Traffic Controller). And AWAYYYY we go.... "Well, I read somewhere that to kill a vampire, you have to behead it and fill its mouth with holy wafers." "Really?" "I knew you'd like that." Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer INTERNET: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM Manual UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, hplsla, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty CREDO: You gotta be Cruel to be Kind... <*> DISCLAIMER: Do what you want with me, but leave my employers alone! <*>
chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (02/20/88)
>It sure looks good from here, though. Quick notes: I am >*extremely* skeptical about Word 4.0 (did your rumor mention a thesaurus?); No mention of a thesaurus. I'm skeptical, too, but look what they did with Write. No pre-warning at all, no rumors before hand, either. Unlike Apple, they've figured out how to keep a secret. So it's not unlikely. >Spelling DA that runs with Works); does anyone have comments on >Ashton-Tate's previous Macintosh documentation -- i.e. will they re-write >the AA docs (I liked the reference manual quite a bit). They'd have to go >quite a ways to screw the FullWrite manuals up as much as the Word >manuals... The manuals are printed. I sincerely doubt AT will reprint them --that's expensive and silly. And NOTHING could be worse than Microsoft's manuals -- anyone who's using word should track down the Cobb Group's book on Word. It's the only Word reference in my coomputer room anymore.... >OTHER SOFTWARE: We missed graphics packages. My vote: SuperPaint. Hmm. I use (and like) superpaint when I need a graphic package (not as often as I'd like....). It could be better, the draw/paint layer interaction is confusing as hell. Superpaint II, though, looks like it'll fix all my gripes and then some. Laurie hates SuperPaint, and uses fullpaint. She gives up the draw layer, but it's a lot more intuitive and easier to use without pushing through the (less than optimal) superpaint manual. >Utilities: I always recommend that people get used to the Mac before they >buy utilities. Get frustrated with a few of the slow points, and then >spring Font/DA Juggler (yes, just bought it, better than SuitCase (but for >how long? For HOW LONG?), and with several GREAT utilities), DiskTop 3.01, >SmartScrap and PictureBase on them. There are people who view me unto a god >when I showed them DiskTop 3.01. Utilities are great for guru status... Utilities. oh, yeah!. How could we live without our toys! First thing you want to buy is QuickKeys. you bought the Mac for the mouse, right? Well, buy quickeys to allow you to mouse from the keyboard. This sounds silly, but trust me. To make best use of QuickKeys, you should get an extended keybaord. I just bought the Datadesk 101. It is so much better than the standard Mac keyboard you won't believe it, and I've been told by numerous people it's even better than Apple's ADB extended keyboard. Here's a second for disktop, too. You won't know how much you need it until you're in word and need to go in and play with the signature bits. Great stuff. Jeff forgot Acta, the outliner as DA. It's not as powerful as MORE, but it's a lot more accessible. It's a lot better than Word's outline mode, and available anywhere. you don't think you need an outliner? Well, neither did I, but I now use it to store an outline that brings up lists of OtherRealms schedules, compuserve accounts, dates, deadlines, phone numbers, projects, etc, etc,etc, all as different topics in a default outline. If this sounds like a rolodex overkill, you're right, but the thing is so damn flexible and convenient you won't believe it. And you can use it for outlining, too. And MINIwriter. you think that since you have a word processor you don't need a text editor DA? Think again. >Hard Disk Software: We've beat backup software into the ground (I like >DiskFit, but frankly, I'm waiting for a videotape back-up); optimizers are a >must for me (on a 20 MB, you notice the clutter faster). DiskExpress isn't >as fast as PowerUp, nor as easy, but it seems to make things more optimal. >It's a toss-up on that. Two votes here, for diskfit and DiskExpress. I used to use HFS-Backup, but switched over to Diskfit when I started to seriousl hack Hypercard. Why? Because while using fresh floppies is a nice theory, when Hypercard eaths four or five floppies a night, you're better off simply copying over -- the backup set gets too large too quickly to be useful. >I could mention games, but it sounds like you're talking about serious >software... (some of the best stuff is PD and shareware -- nothing makes my >pulse pound like Air Traffic Controller). I'll mention games. Whatthehell. Crystal Quest and Risk. the only games on my disk, and they take up more time than I have to give. But who cares? All work and no play.... Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM Delphi: CHUQ What do you mean 'You don't really want to hurt her?' I'm a Super-Villain! That's my Schtick!
lonetto@phri.UUCP (Michael Lonetto) (02/22/88)
Someone mentioned MacCalc. I've been using MacCalc at home since it came out, and it really is a nice simple spreadsheet (which can generate nicer output than Excel) At work we have Excel, which is more difficult to use for simple spreadsheets, but has formula and command macros (very nice to have if you use them). It also has it's own graphing, but I find it easier (and nicer) to transfer data from either of these programs into Cricket Graph (MacCalc doesn't do graphs). This last method of working points out a difficulty with BOTH of these programs. Whenever possible I LIVE in multifinder, especially at home (Mac+, 2.5MB). MacCalc "has quit unexpectedly" whenever I start it under multifinder. Excel works fine at work (1MB Mac+), and 272K (the default partition size) is plenty of memory for small spreadsheets (even 4 or 5 of them). HOWEVER, when I tried it at home, it grabbed 750K !! Excel only seemed to know about the 272K it was set for. 500K went into Limbo!! Does anybody know of: 1) any update plans for either of these programs that will fix these problems OR 2) any other spreadsheet with FORMULA macros which works with multifinder OR 3) a good statistical analysis program that will work with either of these. I'd really like to buy Excel for home (Even if I wanted to pirate it, it's useless without the manuals) but it seems that something must be very wrong with the way it works under multifinder. This is not confidence inspiring. My two cents... -- Michael Lonetto UUCP:(allegra!phri!lonetto) Dept of Applied Genetics Public Health Research Institute, 455 1st Ave, NY, NY 10016
marti@ethz.UUCP (Robert Marti) (02/22/88)
In article <42125@sun.uucp>, chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: [ on high-end Word Processors for the Mac ] > o Microsoft Word. I got an interesting rumor for a highly placed, unnamed > source (not at Microsoft, tho) that Word 4.0 for the Mac will be out (or > at least announced) in March. Let's be conservative and say April. Are we talking about March 1995 or 1996?? 1/2 ;-) -- Robert Marti Phone: +41 1 256 52 36 Institut fur Informatik ETH Zentrum/SOT CSNET/ARPA: marti%ifi.ethz.ch@relay.cs.net CH-8092 Zurich, Switzerland UUCP: ...uunet!mcvax!ethz!marti
jwhitnel@csi.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) (02/23/88)
In article <2930@fluke.COM> moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes: >Utilities: I always recommend that people get used to the Mac before they >buy utilities. Get frustrated with a few of the slow points, and then >spring Font/DA Juggler (yes, just bought it, better than SuitCase (but for >how long? For HOW LONG?), and with several GREAT utilities), DiskTop 3.01, >SmartScrap and PictureBase on them. There are people who view me unto a god >when I showed them DiskTop 3.01. Utilities are great for guru status... Also PowerStation, QuickKeys and HFS Navigator. With DiskTop 3.01, these are the four utitiles I use most and couldn't live without. Acta is also nice to have but I could live without it. > > Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer Jerry Whitnell Been through Hell? Communication Solutions, Inc. What did you bring back for me? - A. Brilliant
cs224052@brap0929 (Scott Draves) (02/25/88)
Chuq recommends Excel or Works for any spreadsheet users. I have to disagree. While Excel was the first real spreadsheet on the Mac, and probably the most powerfull spreadsheet anywhere, that is all you can say for it. Its interface is a direct descendent of Visicalc, down to the little bar at the top of the screen showing the current cell contents. Programming the spreadsheet is far better than it was on the Apple II, but it still sucks. I feel that a quantum leap is needed in the spreadsheet market. Excel is just another Microsoft IBM PC style program on the Mac. What to do until my dream spreadsheet appears? Try Trapeze. I think it is has a much better interface than Excel, despite its funny 'icon bar.' Trapeze was written on the Mac, for the Mac, by people who love the Mac. It shows. -Scott
nick@ccicpg.UUCP (Nick Crossley) (02/27/88)
In article <2930@fluke.COM> moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes: >In article <42125@sun.uucp> chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >>On to others: presentation packages. Who cares? This is a market in search >>of a reason, a great hype with little substance. Powerpoint does some nice >>things, but how many people REALLY need something that can't be done in >>their Word Processor? Seriously, now.... > >Actually, Chuq, there is a *BIG* demand for these things, if several big >corporations in the Seattle dBUG group are any measure. These guys just I agree with Jeff. I, and my wife, prepare presentations and lecture slides and handouts frequently. We tend to use a mixture of MacWrite, MacDraw, MacPaint, More,... (particularly the last - the bullet charts are designed specifically for this use, and are excellent). I haven't yet looked at PowerPoint, but if it could do with one program everything I can do with all the others, I would certainly buy it. >Utilities: ... To my mind, all such DA's and Finder replacements are rendered obsolete by MultiFinder, running your desired application(s), Finder and MPW. Finder is there to do any standard stuff with the desktop, etc., and to drag things to the required positions and sizes, and the MPW shell provides all required utilities and commands to fiddle with files with power near that of Unix and a good shell. It even has built-in help (the Commando facility). My own system has Finder, MPW and the Alarm Clock as a start-up set. (So I don't need a clock in the menu bar; I have found such utilities have caused crashes). >I could mention games, but it sounds like you're talking about serious >software... (some of the best stuff is PD and shareware -- nothing makes my >pulse pound like Air Traffic Controller). I like Wizardry. I had this on my old Apple ][+, and when I bought a Mac, this was one of the first games I bought. I still enjoy it. Dark Castle is also good. -- <<< standard disclaimers >>> Nick Crossley, CCI, 9801 Muirlands, Irvine, CA 92718-2521, USA Tel. (714) 458-7282, uucp: ...!uunet!ccicpg!nick