peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (03/04/88)
If nothing else, Apple has earned a big black mark for pull-down menus. Due to the Mac's popularity (due, in turn, to being the first kid on the block with affordable windows) *everyone* has been copying those stupid menus. Atari even emulates Apple's one-button paradigm on their 2-button mouse. Amiga at least has a separate menu button. But I still have to drag the mouse halfway across the screen to get at the menus when I hit it. I'd MUCH rather have context-sensitive pop-up menus. But, nooooo. Apple came up with pull-down menus and that's the way it'll be. The CP/M-style-system-calls of the windowing world. And what happened to the "drag a document into a processor" metaphor? Apple came up with something that looked like the Xerox Star, but it sure as hell doesn't work like it. -- -- a clone of Peter (have you hugged your wolf today) da Silva `-_-' -- normally ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter U -- Disclaimer: These aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
elcond@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gregory Dow) (03/05/88)
In article <730@nuchat.UUCP> peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >If nothing else, Apple has earned a big black mark for pull-down menus. Due >to the Mac's popularity (due, in turn, to being the first kid on the block >with affordable windows) *everyone* has been copying those stupid menus. >Atari even emulates Apple's one-button paradigm on their 2-button mouse. Pull-down menus are fine on the original, small Mac screen, but can be a pain with a large and/or mulitple monitor set up. Tear-off menus (for those who asked, these are menus that you can pull down and then drag around and place anywhere on the screen) are great, but really effective only for one or two menus at a time. Having 6 or so menus floating around at once gets confusing and takes up valuable screen space. I've been thinking about an extension to the standard Mac interface where a multiple-button mouse is simulated using modifier keys. I propose that option-clicking (or control-clicking) should display a hierarchical popup menu of the titles in the menu bar. For example, in a simple program with just an Apple, File, and Edit menu, you would get the following: ------------- | A > | | File > | | Edit > | ------------- This menu would popup next to the mouse location and behave as a normal hierarchical menu. What do people think about this idea? If there's interest, I can post some source code showing how implement this is in an application. I haven't quite figured out how to implement this as an INIT or cdev so that it will work with existing executable programs. Gregory Dow ARPA: elcond@garnet.berkeley.edu Chemical Engineering Dept. UUCP: {uwvax, decvax, ihnp4, ...}!ucbvax University of California !elcond%garnet.berkeley.edu Berkeley, CA 94720 BITNET: POLYDOW@UCBCMSA
alibaba@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Alexander M. Rosenberg) (03/05/88)
Nope. It's been done. It is called "Popup", and is a public domain/sharware (I can't remember off hand) DA. It doesn't work on a II, as I recall. Try contacting The Boston Computer Society if you can't find it. (I recall putting it on a disk quite a while ago (last summer), but alas, I am at a intitutiion of higher learning, and cannot do such volunteer work. (Flying across country all the time costs mucho dinero.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Alexander M. Rosenberg ~ INTERNET: alibaba@ucscb.ucsc.edu ~ Yoyodyne ~ ~ Crown College, UCSC ~ UUCP:...!ucbvax!ucscc!ucscb!alibaba~ Propulsion ~ ~ Santa Cruz, CA 95064 ~ BITNET:alibaba%ucscb@ucscc.BITNET ~ Systems ~ ~ (408) 426-8869 ~ Disclaimer: Nobody is my employer ~ :-) ~ ~ ~ so nobody cares what I say. ~ ~
ack@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Andy J. Williams) (03/06/88)
In article <730@nuchat.UUCP> peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >If nothing else, Apple has earned a big black mark for pull-down menus. Due >to the Mac's popularity (due, in turn, to being the first kid on the block >with affordable windows) *everyone* has been copying those stupid menus. >Atari even emulates Apple's one-button paradigm on their 2-button mouse. > >Amiga at least has a separate menu button. But I still have to drag the mouse >halfway across the screen to get at the menus when I hit it. I'd MUCH rather >have context-sensitive pop-up menus. But, nooooo. Apple came up with pull-down >menus and that's the way it'll be. The CP/M-style-system-calls of the windowing >world. > Well, the philosophy behind the Mac is to be easy to use. I think that having a centralized, rarely changing, and standard format and place for menus is much easier for the Computer Neophyte to use than having random pop up menus all over the place. But even these are part of the standard ROM now as well as Heirarchical (sp). I think that PullDown menus are the best idea simply because they are always there, should always have the same functions in the relative same place (God, wouldn't it be great if everyone followed the User Interface Guidelines?) and do the relative same things? (Open, Close, Save, Save as..., Cut, Copy... all and more) How would a new user who has no idea what is going on feel about buttons in random places on the screen, never the same, and try to find the one that does what he/she wants? This way everyone knows what the hell is going on and more time can be spent USING the Mac instead of learning applications. >-- >-- a clone of Peter (have you hugged your wolf today) da Silva `-_-' >-- normally ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter U >-- Disclaimer: These aren't mere opinions... these are *values*. -Andy -- Andy J. Williams'90 |_ /| ACK! |BITNET: ack@eleazar.dartmouth.edu HB 509 Dartmouth Clg|\`o_O'Systems|UUCP:{ihnp4,decvax,linus}!dartvax!eleazar!ack Hanover, NH 03775 | ( ) |DISCLAIMER: You better like my opinions, 603-643-7727 | U --ACK! | my mother can beat up your mother...
ack@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Andy J. Williams) (03/06/88)
In article <7398@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> elcond@garnet.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Gregory Dow) writes: >I've been thinking about an extension to the standard Mac interface where >a multiple-button mouse is simulated using modifier keys. I propose that >option-clicking (or control-clicking) should display a hierarchical popup menu >of the titles in the menu bar. For example, in a simple program with just >an Apple, File, and Edit menu, you would get the following: > > ------------- > | A > | > | File > | > | Edit > | > ------------- > >This menu would popup next to the mouse location and behave as a normal >hierarchical menu. A DA that does this already exists. It is called Popup and I believe it is available on SUMEX. Once you activate the DA it will pop this exact menu up whereever you click with Shift and Command down. It is a very nice thing to have if you are using a large screen. I use it alot with BigScreen Init (which is almost the same as having a large screen.) It would be nice if this were an INIT or a CDEV. You have to select the DA each time you reboot. > Gregory Dow ARPA: elcond@garnet.berkeley.edu -Andy -- -- Andy J. Williams'90 |_ /| ACK! |BITNET: ack@eleazar.dartmouth.edu HB 509 Dartmouth Clg|\`o_O'Systems|UUCP:{ihnp4,decvax,linus}!dartvax!eleazar!ack Hanover, NH 03775 | ( ) |DISCLAIMER: You better like my opinions, 603-643-7727 | U --ACK! | my mother can beat up your mother...
mcb@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (Still amused by setenv NAME) (03/07/88)
In article <7398@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> elcond@garnet.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Gregory Dow) writes: >I've been thinking about an extension to the standard Mac interface where >a multiple-button mouse is simulated using modifier keys. I propose that >option-clicking (or control-clicking) should display a hierarchical popup menu >of the titles in the menu bar. This sounds like a fun idea, provided that it exists SOLELY as an alternative to the standard interface. The reason the Macintosh has a one- button mouse (in case anyone doesn't know) is that the average user works faster with a single button. Apple tested this fairly extensively, and it turns out that most people get confused when there's more than one button on the mouse. The guiding philosophy here should be the same as that behind the command key equivalents for menus: if a user knows what she's doing, there should be shortcuts available to her, but the shortcuts may only duplicate already existing functionality. ALL of the power of an application should be readily accessible to a novice user. (Is anyone at Microsoft listening?) I would recommend implementing this as a CDEV, so that the user can disable it in the event that it conflicts with a particular application. If you want to send me the code, I'll give it a try (but no promises). -Matt -- Matt Bamberger "Ill-equipped to act, 1005 E. 60th St., #346 With insufficient tact, Chicago, IL 60637 One must put up barriers 312-753-2261 To keep oneself intact." - Rush
jwhitnel@csi.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) (03/08/88)
In article <7398@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> elcond@garnet.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Gregory Dow) writes: >I've been thinking about an extension to the standard Mac interface where >a multiple-button mouse is simulated using modifier keys. I propose that >option-clicking (or control-clicking) should display a hierarchical popup menu >of the titles in the menu bar. For example, in a simple program with just >an Apple, File, and Edit menu, you would get the following: A nice idea, somebody beat you to it. PopIt! was just uploaded recently to Genie (or CompuServe) and does exactly what you are suggesting. It is an INIT and uses SHIFT-CMD-Button press as the key (switching the cursor to a pop-up menu cursor). Looks just like you were suggestion. In additon, under multifinder it adds a menu of applications. I look into posting it to comp.binaries.mac (although I still don't know if my last posting made it, yet). > > Gregory Dow ARPA: elcond@garnet.berkeley.edu Jerry Whitnell Been through Hell? Communication Solutions, Inc. What did you bring back for me? - A. Brilliant
howard@cpocd2.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) (03/09/88)
In article <8332@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU> ack@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Andy J. Williams) writes: >I think that >having a centralized, rarely changing, and standard format and place for >menus is much easier for the Computer Neophyte to use than having random >pop up menus all over the place. Yes, I suppose that's true, but it's irrelevant because no one has proposed random popup menus. What everyone *except* *you* is talking about is popup menus that appear *where* *the* *mouse* *is*. It's like the difference between being able to go to the refrigerator to get yourself a drink, and being able to hold out your hand and have a butler stick a drink in it. In some systems, the menu even remembers which selection you chose last time and pops up with that selection directly under the cursor, so if you're doing the same operation over and over you hardly even need to look at the menu, merely bring it up and release the mouse button. >How would a new user who has no idea what is going on feel about buttons >in random places on the screen, never the same, and try to find the one >that does what he/she wants? How should I know, why should I care? Such a system exists only in your fevered imagination. You seem to be saying that a butler moves around and you never know where he is, but a refrigerator always stays in the same place so you know where to find it; therefore, a refrigerator provides better drink service than a butler. One last advantage of popup menus; they don't burn a negative image into your screen like menu bars do. Therefore your display will last longer. -- Howard A. Landman {oliveb,hplabs}!intelca!mipos3!cpocd2!howard howard%cpocd2.intel.com@RELAY.CS.NET
benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) (03/09/88)
In article <14458@oddjob.UChicago.EDU>, mcb@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (Still amused by setenv NAME) writes: > alternative to the standard interface. The reason the Macintosh has a > one-button mouse (in case anyone doesn't know) is that the average user > works > faster with a single button. Apple tested this fairly > extensively, and it turns out that most people get confused when there's > more than one button on the mouse. I take it you believe them? I have worked on a one-button mac and three button Apollos and Suns and I hold the opposite opinion (and obviously those companies must share that opinion since they give you three button mice). I tend to work much faster on a three button mouse (three functions versus one function). When I go back to the Mac the one-button mouse seems completely awkward and lacking flexibility. Obviously there must be a point of no return - i wouldn't want to work on a 92-button mouse :-)
keeshu@nikhefk.UUCP (Kees Huyser) (03/10/88)
In article <1739@ssc-vax.UUCP> benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) writes: #When I go back to the Mac the one-button mouse seems completely awkward #and lacking flexibility. Obviously there must be a point of no return - #i wouldn't want to work on a 92-button mouse :-) Some people would call a 92-button mouse a keyboard ;-) --Kees | UUCP : keeshu@nikhefk.uucp or {[wherever]!uunet}!mcvax!nikhefk!keeshu | BITNET : keeshu@hasara5.bitnet | FIDO : Kees Huyser @ 2:508/15 (Opus_MacSaga) | SNAIL : Kees Huyser, NIKHEF-K, PO Box 4395, 1009 AJ Amsterdam, Netherlands +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
hallett@hamlet.steinmetz (Jeff A. Hallett) (03/10/88)
In article <1440@csib.csi.UUCP> jwhitnel@csib.UUCP writes: > >A nice idea, somebody beat you to it. PopIt! was just uploaded recently >to Genie (or CompuServe) and does exactly what you are suggesting. It >is an INIT and uses SHIFT-CMD-Button press as the key (switching the >cursor to a pop-up menu cursor). Looks just like you were suggestion. >In additon, under multifinder it adds a menu of applications. I look into >posting it to comp.binaries.mac (although I still don't know if my last >posting made it, yet). Given the recent problems with comp.binaries.mac, you might want to consider sending it to Sumex-Aim for the Info-Mac archives there. If you cannot, you could mail it to me and forward it along for you. Good work. I've been looking for this INIT for a long time. -- Jeffrey A. Hallett | ARPA: hallett@ge-crd.arpa Software Technology Program | UUCP: desdemona!hallett@steinmetz.uucp GE Corporate Research and Development | (518) 387-5654 +--------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ | Credo Quia Absurdum Est | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Jeffrey A. Hallett | ARPA: hallett@ge-crd.arpa Software Technology Program | UUCP: desdemona!hallett@steinmetz.uucp GE Corporate Research and Development | (518) 387-5654 +--------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ | Credo Quia Absurdum Est | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
drc@dbase.UUCP (Dennis Cohen) (03/10/88)
In article <1739@ssc-vax.UUCP>, benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) writes: > I take it you believe them? > I have worked on a one-button mac and three button Apollos and Suns and > I hold the opposite opinion (and obviously those companies must share > that opinion since they give you three button mice). I tend to work > much faster on a three button mouse (three functions versus one function). > When I go back to the Mac the one-button mouse seems completely awkward > and lacking flexibility. Obviously there must be a point of no return - > i wouldn't want to work on a 92-button mouse :-) I don't know whether he believes them, but I do. You'll note the use of the word, "average", in the discussion. That was the key to the investigation. I personally find three button mice pretty easy to use, but a number of people I have worked with found them very difficult to adapt to at first (and found them tough to use if they didn't use the system on a regular basis). This is not the case with the one-button mouse. Most people are computerphobes and if you give them a number of options to begin with, they block the whole thing out. If you give them one simple, consistent method they are less likely to reject what is being offered. There is an interesting analogy here to VCRs. I've seen some articles of late describing studies showing that a significant number of VCR owners don't know how to program their recorders and often use them strictly as a playback mechanism for rented tapes. The studies say that the first discussion of how to program the recorder sounded complicated, so the people said, "Uh, huh." and then blocked it out. Those of us that work with these systems on a regular basis have little trouble adapting to something new, but we're a small percentage of the available market. Apple wanted the Mac to be like an appliance, and appliances don't sell well if they're at all complicated to learn to use. Dennis Cohen Ashton-Tate Macintosh Division dBASE Mac Development Team -------------------------- Disclaimer: Any opinions expressed above are those of the author.
dorner@uxg.cso.uiuc.edu (03/10/88)
>#When I go back to the Mac the one-button mouse seems completely awkward >#and lacking flexibility. Obviously there must be a point of no return - >#i wouldn't want to work on a 92-button mouse :-) > > Some people would call a 92-button mouse a keyboard ;-) Hey, there's the answer! Let's put little balls on the bottoms of our keyboards, and use the keyboard instead of the mouse. Then nobody has to take their fingers off the keyboard! Everyone send me money so I can produce this wondrous thing. ---- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: dorner@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu UUCP: ihnp4!uiucuxc!dorner IfUMust: (217) 333-3339 PS--I guess I feel silly today.
jwhitnel@csi.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) (03/11/88)
In article <1739@ssc-vax.UUCP> benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) writes: |In article <14458@oddjob.UChicago.EDU>, mcb@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (Still amused by setenv NAME) writes: |> alternative to the standard interface. The reason the Macintosh has a |> one-button mouse (in case anyone doesn't know) is that the average user |> works > faster with a single button. Apple tested this fairly |> extensively, and it turns out that most people get confused when there's |> more than one button on the mouse. |I take it you believe them? I don't believe faster, I would believe with less confusion for the naive and casual user. Remember, the Mac's user interface was (and still is pimarily) aimed at the casual user. Everything the user can do appears as an icon or in a menu located in an obvious place. There are tools for power users, but one of the primary rules in designing a Mac application is make sure all operations are visibile (or in a menu that is visible). |When I go back to the Mac the one-button mouse seems completely awkward |and lacking flexibility. Obviously there must be a point of no return - |i wouldn't want to work on a 92-button mouse :-) Actually, I have a 106 button mouse on my Mac :-). Or however many keys are on that extended keyboard. With QuickKeys, you can redefine any key to be any sequence of keys, menu selection or mouse button-presses/drags that you want. Why limit yourself to three buttons when you have the whole keyboard for defining shortcuts? Jerry Whitnell Been through Hell? Communication Solutions, Inc. What did you bring back for me? - A. Brilliant
jwhitnel@csi.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) (03/11/88)
In article <9860@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP> desdemona!hallett@steinmetz.UUCP (Jeffrey A. Hallett) writes: >Given the recent problems with comp.binaries.mac, you might want to >consider sending it to Sumex-Aim for the Info-Mac archives there. If >you cannot, you could mail it to me and forward it along for you. > >Good work. I've been looking for this INIT for a long time. Oops, I didn't write it. I don't have the authors name to give proper credit (PopIt! is at home, I'm at work), but I apolgize for any confusion. Since I don't have access to Info-Mac, I'll look into sending you a copy when I mail it to comp.binaries.mac (Sorry, folks, that is not a generic offer to send it to anyone who asks.) > >-- >Jeffrey A. Hallett | ARPA: hallett@ge-crd.arpa Jerry Whitnell Been through Hell? Communication Solutions, Inc. What did you bring back for me? - A. Brilliant
sbb@esquire.UUCP (Stephen B. Baumgarten) (03/11/88)
In article <1170@cpocd2.UUCP> howard@cpocd2.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) writes: >One last advantage of popup menus; they don't burn a negative image into your >screen like menu bars do. Therefore your display will last longer. As long as this discussion, one would hope... [ half :-) ] Look, can we end this sometime soon? The one-button people are never going to convince the multi-button people (despite the research), and vice-versa. And, since Apple is Apple, the Mac is *never* going to have a multi-button mouse, and it's *never* going to have DMA, either. :-) -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." ...!cmcl2!esquire!sbb | - David Letterman
peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (03/11/88)
In article ... ack@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Andy J. Williams) writes: > In article ... peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: > >If nothing else, Apple has earned a big black mark for pull-down menus. > How would a new user who has no idea what is going on feel about buttons > in random places on the screen, never the same, and try to find the one > that does what he/she wants? This way everyone knows what the hell is going > on and more time can be spent USING the Mac instead of learning applications. Who said anything about random buttons on the screen? You can easily set up your pop-up menus so that when you hit the right mouse button a menu appears right under the mouse with all the top-level topics (DA, File, Edit, etc...) visible. From there on it behaves just like the Mac system... without having to move the mouse all over creation. You don't have a two-or-more-button mouse? Sorry. My point that the solution to this design flaw (pull-down menus) is inappropriate on systems that don't share it remains valid. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Disclaimer: These U aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
steele@unc.cs.unc.edu (Oliver Steele) (03/12/88)
jwhitnel@csib.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: >In article <1739@ssc-vax.UUCP> benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) writes: >|In article <14458@oddjob.UChicago.EDU>, mcb@oddjob.UChicago.EDU (Still amused by setenv NAME) writes: >|> The reason the Macintosh has a >|> one-button mouse (in case anyone doesn't know) is that the average user >|> works > faster with a single button. Apple tested this fairly >|> extensively, and it turns out that most people get confused when there's >|> more than one button on the mouse. >|I take it you believe them? > >I don't believe faster, I would believe with less confusion for the naive >and casual user. Remember, the Mac's user interface was (and still is >p[r]imarily) aimed at the casual user. Keep in mind, too, that "casual user" doesn't necessarily mean computer neophyte or non-programmer. A casual user can be a computer jock/geek who's using a program foo doesn't use very often. I try out some twenty new programs a month on the Mac and only have to struggle with two or three (and there's more of a correlation with how poorly they're written rather than with how powerful they are); I couldn't do this with an Atari 800/Commodere 64/TRS-80/Apple II, and I can't do it with a UNIX machine without reading a README and man.1 that I have to relearn every time I want to use the program again. You can't have a large number of tools in your repertoire unless you can tell how they work without digging out the manual. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oliver Steele ...!uunet!mcnc!unc!steele steele@cs.unc.edu "I worry about anyone under eighteen who isn't a cynic -- and anyone over eighteen who is." -- Spider Robinson
jwhitnel@csi.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) (03/12/88)
In article <1170@cpocd2.UUCP> howard@cpocd2.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) writes: |In article <8332@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU> ack@eleazar.Dartmouth.EDU (Andy J. Williams) writes: |>I think that |>having a centralized, rarely changing, and standard format and place for |>menus is much easier for the Computer Neophyte to use than having random |>pop up menus all over the place. | |Yes, I suppose that's true, but it's irrelevant because no one has proposed |random popup menus. What everyone *except* *you* is talking about is popup |menus that appear *where* *the* *mouse* *is*. It's like the difference |between being able to go to the refrigerator to get yourself a drink, and |being able to hold out your hand and have a butler stick a drink in it. Sorry, but it is releavant. The issue was not where the menu shows up when you click the mouse, but where you click to get the menu you want. To continue your analogy, it's like sitting in the green chair to get an Anchor Steam beer, but if you want water you have to move over to the couch. Many window systems (such as Xerox's Smalltalk) do just that, depending on where you click you get a different menu. Move all the menus to one known place (the menu bar) and give them simple mnemonic titles makes it more obvious to the casual user. Which is what Andy said and everyone *except* *you* understood. |In some systems, the menu even remembers which selection you chose last time |and pops up with that selection directly under the cursor, so if you're doing |the same operation over and over you hardly even need to look at the menu, |merely bring it up and release the mouse button. This is nice, although I prefer Apple's solution of command keys that select menu items. This way I don't have to keep moving from the keyboard to the mouse to repeat an operation. | |>How would a new user who has no idea what is going on feel about buttons |>in random places on the screen, never the same, and try to find the one |>that does what he/she wants? | |How should I know, why should I care? Such a system exists only in your |fevered imagination. You seem to be saying that a butler moves around and you |never know where he is, but a refrigerator always stays in the same place so |you know where to find it; therefore, a refrigerator provides better drink |service than a butler. Just because your limited experience with windowing systems prevents you from understanding what Andy is talking about is no reason to flame him. I suggest in the future you cut the flammage in your couterpoints. See above for the reference to a window system that does what Andy talks about. | Howard A. Landman Jerry Whitnell Been through Hell? Communication Solutions, Inc. What did you bring back for me? - A. Brilliant
pds@quintus.UUCP (Peter Schachte) (03/12/88)
In article <1170@cpocd2.UUCP>, howard@cpocd2.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) writes: > One last advantage of popup menus; they don't burn a negative image into your > screen like menu bars do. Therefore your display will last longer. One more advantage: they don't take up valuable screen acreage. On small (low resolution) screens, this is a big advantage. Having using both kinds quite a bit, I find popup menus easier, and certainly faster, than pull-down (drop-down, window-shade, whatever) menus. -- -Peter Schachte pds@quintus.uucp ...!sun!quintus!pds
pokey@well.UUCP (Jef Poskanzer) (03/12/88)
In the referenced message, pds@quintus.UUCP (Peter Schachte) wrote: }One more advantage: they don't take up valuable screen acreage. On }small (low resolution) screens, this is a big advantage. Yeah, small low-resolution screens like the Macintosh's! Pop-ups would have been a big win on the Mac. So why did Jobs' crew go for pull-downs? N.I.H. perhaps -- they had to change something to make themselves feel useful. }Having using both kinds quite a bit, I find popup menus easier, and }certainly faster, than pull-down (drop-down, window-shade, whatever) }menus. Ya got that right. --- Jef Jef Poskanzer jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa ...well!pokey Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do.
DN5@PSUVM.BITNET (D. Jay Newman) (03/14/88)
There has been a lot of discussion that the Mac Interface would need a two-
button mouse to be able to effectively deal with pop-up menus (except where
you have some sort of button to click). How about if a double-click in the
window title-bar (outside of the close box and the zoom box) brought up a
pop-up menu for that window? I prefer double-clicks to modifier keys (I
really hate modifier keys for the mouse--I would almost rather have a multi-
button mouse--now if every application was consistant with modifier keys... :-)
For the most part I like the Mac Interface, and I like the menu bar for the
active application at the top, but with bigger screens, thats a lot of mouse
moving. Perhaps a double click in the top menu bar or in the open desktop
would bring up the finder menu.
Jay, etc...
Disclamer:
I'm big enough to speak for myself, but not big enough to speak
for anybody else!john@felix.UUCP (John Gilbert) (03/15/88)
> This sounds like a fun idea, provided that it exists SOLELY as an >alternative to the standard interface. The reason the Macintosh has a one- >button mouse (in case anyone doesn't know) is that the average user works >faster with a single button. Apple tested this fairly extensively, and it >turns out that most people get confused when there's more than one button on >the mouse. Apple doesn't have a one button mouse really. They just put the other two buttons on the keyboard. What this did was to abandon convention for the various combinations of buttons. Really, very few programs run without using the Command and Option keys as modifiers for the one button located on the mouse, and they do not all use these combinations in the same manner. The use of SHFT-Click to group select is probably the most uniform of these. What it did do tho, was suggest to developers that use of button combinations is to be classified as extended functionality, not as part of a common interface. It forces them to think in terms of designing for simplicity, and treating advanced features as extra-ordinary. This is not necessarily a bad thing, and probably there are good arguments on both sides. On result: you have things like "Power Users Guide" to tell you about things that are not intuitive. Many of the tips in these publications are how to moidify the meaning of the mouse. Ya just gotta use two hands. John Gilbert -- John Gilbert !trwrb!felix!john
peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (03/15/88)
In article <1450@csib.csi.UUCP>, jwhitnel@csi.UUCP (Jerry Whitnell) writes: > Sorry, but it is releavant. The issue was not where the menu shows up when > you click the mouse, but where you click to get the menu you want. Maybe for you. For me the issue is whether the menu pops up under the mouse or halfway across the room. > Move all the > menus to one known place (the menu bar) and give them simple mnemonic titles > makes it more obvious to the casual user. Which is what Andy said and > everyone *except* *you* understood. That's two differences. You're confusing where the menus come up (the menu bar or under the mouse) with the contents of the menus. > This is nice, although I prefer Apple's solution of command keys that > select menu items. This way I don't have to keep moving from the keyboard > to the mouse to repeat an operation. That's another dimension still. You can have command keys no matter where the menus come up. -- -- a clone of Peter (have you hugged your wolf today) da Silva `-_-' -- normally ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter U -- Disclaimer: These aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
fink@mist.cs.orst.edu (Paul Fink) (03/16/88)
In article <7398@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> elcond@garnet.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Gregory Dow) writes: >In article <730@nuchat.UUCP> peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >>If nothing else, Apple has earned a big black mark for pull-down menus. Due > >Pull-down menus are fine on the original, small Mac screen, but can be >a pain with a large and/or mulitple monitor set up. Tear-off menus No! No! No! I hate popup menus. Pull down menus work fine for me on any monitor. A menu bar with pull down menus lets you see what chioces you have and encourages you to browse. With multi-button mice and crtl key button combinations you must remember what combination gives you what menu. This can be very confusing for the beginner, I'm trying to teach physics students how to use Xwindows without much luck. Popup menus also mean each program has its own interface.What happens when you have a program with 7 to 10 menus? The ctrl-button combos start looking like a MS-DOS function key interface. Apple has earned a gold star for bring us a humane interface. paul fink fink@mistcs.orst.edu
spector@vx2.GBA.NYU.EDU (David HM Spector) (03/16/88)
I agree Apple, after a fashion, did put the "other" buttons on the keyboard,
but the main difference is that the "other" buttons are not needed for the
operation of the machine. On most multi-button mouse machines, the other
buttons usually have functionality that you can't get away from.
Apple has pulled this aspect of the user interface very well. You may not like
having to use the mouse for everything, but you also don't have to learn all
the function keys if you are a novice. They are short cuts. In fact almost
every Macintosh program can be used without every touching the command key.
Notable exceptions are very "high level" programs like Quark XPress and CAD/CAM
programs that most "novice" users wouldn't start learning how to use a Macintosh
with...
I think that any programs that force a user to use the command keys for
anything violate the sprit of the interface and Apple's "thought Police" should
dispatch them to programmer's hell.
Actually, programs should give users complete control of the program from
both the keyboard and the mouse. This would stop these silly 1-button .vs.
'n'-button arguments.... :-)
David
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David HM Spector New York University
Senior Systems Programmer Graduate School of Business
Arpa: SPECTOR@GBA.NYU.EDU Academic Computing Center
UUCP:...!{allegra,rocky,harvard}!cmcl2!spector 90 Trinity Place, Rm C-4
MCIMail: DSpector New York, New York 10006
AppleLink: D1161 CompuServe: 71260,1410 (212) 285-6080
"SJM 25, 'real nice guy' seeks SJF... What? This ISN'T The Voice personals?!"hallett@hamlet.steinmetz (Jeff A. Hallett) (03/17/88)
In article <3313@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> fink@mist.UUCP (Paul Fink) writes: >In article <7398@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> elcond@garnet.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Gregory Dow) writes: >>In article <730@nuchat.UUCP> peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >>>If nothing else, Apple has earned a big black mark for pull-down menus. Due >> >>Pull-down menus are fine on the original, small Mac screen, but can be >>a pain with a large and/or mulitple monitor set up. Tear-off menus > >No! No! No! I hate popup menus. Pull down menus work fine for me on any monitor. >A menu bar with pull down menus lets you see what chioces you have and >encourages you to browse. With multi-button mice and crtl key button It appears that this is an endless discussion and for good reason. It is totally a matter of religion - people who like pulldown menus won't give them up, the same for popup fanatics. The beauty is they are both right!! This is a pointless discussion. Paul is fully justified in his defense of pulldown menus (I think he has summed up the major advantages very well). However, the popup people are fully justified as well; on large screens it is a pain in unmentionable bodily areas to run back up to the top whenever you need something. It is my opinion that I like BOTH. It is ok that Apple chooses the menubar as the standard because when the PopIt! INIT is posted, I will download it, pay the guy his $20 or whatever he wants and be happy as a clam since I will have both at my disposal. Ideally, Apple should have some cdev that allows you to choose which you want and what key+mouse combination would trigger the popup. However, this may be overly difficult and not really a big deal thanks to the little popup menu INITs that are available. Take care and happy mousing! Jeffrey A. Hallett | ARPA: hallett@ge-crd.arpa Software Technology Program | UUCP: desdemona!hallett@steinmetz.uucp GE Corporate Research and Development | (518) 387-5654 +--------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ | Credo Quia Absurdum Est | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+