steele@unc.cs.unc.edu (Oliver Steele) (03/10/88)
As long as we're on the subject of who \({Xerox,Apple,Sun,...}\) stole
what {Menus,windows,mice,popup menus} from whom (\1), I'd like to know
whether the event record queue was original to Apple. Letting
applications poll a queue of events {mouse-up, mouse-down, key-down,
update window} that are time-stamped, modifier-key-stamped, and
mouse-location-stamped makes slow computers seem a lot more responsive and
easier to use, since they don't pop a menu up in the wrong place due to
response lag time, among other unforgivables. (By slow computers I mean
anything up to a Sun-3 running X, Suntools, Smalltalk, or NeWS (our 4s
don't have consoles, and we don't have Sunview); nothing in that range
matches the responsiveness of the original Mac.)
Here's a list of what I consider the major user-interface advances, in no
particular order, and who@where made them. Please fill them in and add to
them, by posting or email, and I'll repost when complete if desired. [I'm
embarrassed that I don't know these. Maybe Bloom is right re: techies
too.]
Probably quite a few of these are {Alan Kay,Larry Tessler}@{Xerox,Apple},
but I don't know which ones. Some of these are probably hard to attribute
to a company since the inventors left Xerox for Apple, took their
creations with them, and finished developing them.
Bitmapped display as
main display device :
Pointing device mapped
to screen pointer :
Mouse : Doug Englebart@?
Menus :
Pulldown menus : ?@Apple
Menu bar : ?@Apple
Hierarchical menus : ?@Sun (?) (if you don't count Apple's Menu
bar as the first menu in a 2-deep hier.)
Disabling of menu items
to show invalidity : ?@Apple
Key equivalents for
menu items : ?@Apple
Check marks on m. i. : ?@Apple
Windows (tiled first?) : ?@Xerox (?)
Overlapped windows : Diane Merry@?Xerox
Event Queue : ?@Apple (?)
Icons :
Scroll bars : ?@Xerox (?)
Push Buttons : ?@Xerox (?)
Radio Buttons : ?@Apple
Check Boxes : ?@Apple
Dialog boxes : ?@Xerox (?)
Multifont/style text records : ?@Xerox
Cut/Copy/Paste w/ mouse : ?@Xerox
Text selection point is
_between_ characters : ?@Xerox
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oliver Steele ...!uunet!mcnc!unc!steele
steele@cs.unc.edu
"A sea urchin is the best way to comb the inside
of a hairy tube." -- Peter Wolfendenok@quintus.UUCP (Richard A. O'Keefe) (03/10/88)
In article <1624@thorin.cs.unc.edu>, steele@unc.cs.unc.edu (Oliver Steele) writes: > Here's a list of what I consider the major user-interface advances, in no > particular order, and who@where made them. Please fill them in and add to > them, by posting or email, and I'll repost when complete if desired. Here's an addition: "Cursor changes to show context" (e.g. i-beam, arrow, busy-bee) Dave Tilbrook, in the NewsHall system (predates Xerox).
blh@VLSI.CS.CMU.EDU (Bruce Horn) (03/15/88)
Here are my updates to Oliver Steele's list. I was lucky enough to witness
many of these concepts being created because I worked in the Smalltalk group
at Xerox (first the Learning Research Group, then Systems Concepts) from
about '74 to '81, then in the Mac group from the end of '81 to mid-'84. I
invite any PARC/Apple alumni to correct my list regarding innovations done
at Xerox and Apple.
I think it is unrealistic to attribute many of these concepts to a single
person. Many folks in LRG (Learning Research Group) & SSL (Systems Science
Laboratory), CSL (Computer Science Laboratory), and SDD (Systems Development
Division) at Xerox, and the Lisa and Mac groups at Apple were involved
in creating these ideas. I added a few new concepts that I felt should have
been in the list as well.
I don't claim these to be correct as to the FIRST creators, but at least
they represent earlier accomplishments than the previous list.
BitBLT/RasterOp : Ingalls(LRG)@Xerox
(VERY IMPORTANT!)
Bitmapped display as
main display device : CSL@Xerox (the Alto) (?)
(PERQ first commercial product)
Pointing device mapped
to screen pointer : Englebart@SRI (?)
Mouse : Englebart@SRI
Menus : LRG@Xerox (?)
Popup Menus : Ingalls(LRG)@Xerox
Pulldown menus : Lisa@Apple
Menu bar : Lisa@Apple
Hierarchical menus : Paeth(SSL)@Xerox (in Smalltalk)
Disabling of menu items
to show invalidity : Lisa@Apple
Key equivalents for
menu items : Lisa@Apple
Check marks on m. i. : Lisa@Apple
Overlapped windows : Ingalls(LRG)@Xerox
Windows (tiled LATER!) : CSL@Xerox
Event Queue : Simula@NCC, then Lisa@Apple
Icons : SDD@Xerox (Star) -> Mac -> Lisa (!)
(my Finder prototype was borrowed by the
Lisa group for their Filer, and enhanced)
Scroll bars : LRG@Xerox
Push Buttons : LRG@Xerox
Radio Buttons : Kaehler(LRG)@Xerox (I brought the term
"radio button" from LRG to Apple).
Check Boxes : LRG@Xerox (?)
Dialog Boxes : Star@Xerox (property sheets)
Language-independent
software (making a
French Finder without
recompiling source) : Lisa@Apple
"Resources", object
databases for dialog layout
and language independence: Horn(Mac)@Apple
Multifont/style text records : CSL@Xerox (Bravo)
Modeless Interaction : Tesler(SSL)@Xerox
Cut/Copy/Paste w/ mouse : Tesler(SSL)@Xerox (Gypsy, then Smalltalk)
Text selection point is
_between_ characters : Tesler(SSL)@Xerox (Gypsy & Smalltalk)
(TECO had this earlier than PARC, it is
claimed)
--
Bruce Horn, Carnegie Mellon CSD
uucp: ...!seismo!cmucspt!cmu-cs-vlsi!blh
ARPA: blh@vlsi.cs.cmu.edusteele@weiss.cs.unc.edu (Oliver Steele) (03/17/88)
Here's the updated list of user interface advances. Many thanks to those of
you who sent in your additions/corrections; some of you I didn't thank
personally because my email bounced. Those who contributed are
Ed Anson (savax!spray.CalComp.COM!anson@decvax.dec.com)
Jim Fulton (jim@expo.lcs.mit.edu)
Bruce Horn (blh@VLSI.CS.CMU.EDU)
Richard A. O'Keefe (ok@quintus.UUCP)
Josh Littlefield (gordon!josh@harvard.harvard.edu)
Peter Schachte (gatech!sri-unix!quintus!pds@husc6.harvard.edu)
David Tilbrook (dt+@andrew.cmu.edu)
. If you sent me mail or posted an addition but your name isn't on the list,
please try sending/posting again.
Bruce Horn noted that:
>I think it is unrealistic to attribute many of these concepts to a single
>person. Many folks in LRG (Learning Research Group) & SSL (Systems Science
>Laboratory), CSL (Computer Science Laboratory), and SDD (Systems Development
>Division) at Xerox, and the Lisa and Mac groups at Apple were involved
>in creating these ideas.
In response to this, I've tried to list the group involved, as well as just
person or company.
Ed Anson pointed out that menus have been around longer than pointing-device-
ones. I've added categories for keyboard-based menus. Where I write "menu"
without a modifier, I mean a mouse-driven one.
Josh Littlefield, Peter Schachte, and Mr Jack Campin pointed out that some
systems allow the user to copy/move text in ways other than cut/copy/paste.
I'm summarize and attribute these in a future posting. (I'm leaving town in
a few hours and am running short on time.)
David Tilbrook (cursor changes to show context) wrote to correct several
misspellings (his first name, the Newswhole system) in an earlier
posting, and wishes to make clear that he did not use a busy-bee
"(yccch)". The cursors were (from Mr. Tilbrook's letter):
> Buddha - indicated system is not ready for input
> Oy_Vey - invalid selection
> Tracker - used when dragging borders on page
> Eh_Wot - puck not on tablet or button depressed redundantly
> No_Room - trying to place object where there isn't
> enough space
> KeyBoard - awaiting user input at keyboard
> Ok - action needs to be confirmed
> Std - anything else
The List, version 2:
(where I've received conflicting data, I've listed them all)
UI Innovation person(group)@company (product) (date)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
key-based menus : earlier than 1978, probably quite ancient
key-based hierarchical menus: UCSD's Pascal system (1978) or earlier
Bitmapped display : CSL@Xerox (Alto) (?)
(PERQ was first commercial product)
or Terak Corporation (c. 1978)
BitBLT/RasterOp : Dan Ingalls(LRG)@Xerox
Pointing device mapped
to screen pointer : Doug Englebart@SRI (mid 70s)
Mouse : Doug Englebart@SRI
Cursor changes
to show system mode : William Newman@Xerox
Cursor changes
to show context : David Tilbrook (Newswhole) (1975)
Menus : LRG@Xerox (?)
Popup Menus : Ingalls(LRG)@Xerox
Pulldown menus : Lisa@Apple
Menu bar : Lisa@Apple
Hierarchical menus : Paeth(SSL)@Xerox (Smalltalk)
Disabling of menu items : Lisa@Apple
or Ed Anson (1980) or earlier
or Xerox (1982 or earlier)
Key equivalents for m.i.: Lisa@Apple
or Ed Anson (1980) or earlier
Check marks on m. i. : Lisa@Apple
Overlapped windows : Ingalls(LRG)@Xerox
Tiled windows : CSL@Xerox
Event Queue : Simula@NCC, then Lisa@Apple
or Ed Anson(GPGS) -> CORE, GKS (1975)
Icons : David Smith(SDD)@Xerox (Star) -> Mac -> Lisa
Scroll bars : LRG@Xerox
Push Buttons : LRG@Xerox
Radio Buttons : Kaehler(LRG)@Xerox
Check Boxes : LRG@Xerox (?)
Visible indication of button
invalidity (dimming) : David Tilbrook (Newswhole) (1975)
Dialog Boxes : Star@Xerox (property sheets)
Resources : Horn(Mac)@Apple
Multifont/style text records : CSL@Xerox (Bravo)
or Wang's word processors (1978 or earlier)
Modeless Interaction : Tesler(SSL)@Xerox
Move/Copy/Delete : Xerox
Cut/Copy/Paste w/ mouse : Tesler(SSL)@Xerox (Gypsy, then Smalltalk)
Selection point between chrs : Tesler(SSL)@Xerox (Gypsy & Smalltalk)
(TECO had this earlier than PARC, it is
claimed)
Again, this is your list. If you'd like to make a change, write me. If you
want to dispute one of these, a date would be helpful. I don't know enough
to settle disputes myself, but I'm willing to put you in touch with/arbitrate
a conversation among those who have supplied contradictory data.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oliver Steele ...!uunet!mcnc!unc!steele
steele@cs.unc.edu
"I worry about anyone under eighteen who isn't a cynic --
and anyone over eighteen who is." -- Spider Robinsoninfowrld@well.UUCP (Sharon L. Fisher) (03/18/88)
This has all taken a new turn. Apple announced last night it was suing HP and Microsoft for the look and feel of New Wave and Windows 2.03, respectively. Won't this be fun.
chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (03/19/88)
>This has all taken a new turn. Apple announced last night it was suing HP >and Microsoft for the look and feel of New Wave and Windows 2.03, respectively. >Won't this be fun. gonna be fascinating. Even if they lose or drop it later, it ought to play havoc with the development of the Presentation Manager. it's even possibly that Apple may end up with a technology for one of the major parts of the new generation IBM operating system. Would that be a hoot. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM Delphi: CHUQ Speed it up. Keep it Simple. Ship it on time. -- Bill Atkinson
chekmate@athena.mit.edu (Adam Kao) (03/19/88)
In article <5464@well.UUCP> infowrld@well.UUCP (Sharon L. Fisher) writes: > >This has all taken a new turn. Apple announced last night it was suing HP >and Microsoft for the look and feel of New Wave and Windows 2.03, respectively. >Won't this be fun. No! No!! Noooooooo!!! Auuugggghhh! >CRASH< Adam
jnh@ece-csc.UUCP (Joseph Nathan Hall) (03/19/88)
In article <5464@well.UUCP> infowrld@well.UUCP (Sharon L. Fisher) writes: > >This has all taken a new turn. Apple announced last night it was suing HP >and Microsoft for the look and feel of New Wave and Windows 2.03, respectively. >Won't this be fun. Well, bully to Apple, I guess. But I'm a little unclear how they can claim to "own" the Mac interface. Have they paid Xerox anything? I'm not criticizing anyone; I'm just wondering exactly what Apple means in reference to the "Macintosh User Interface" and in what respects Apple feels it's proprietary. -joseph /* * ??? no comment today, either ??? */
rfm%urth@Sun.COM (Richard McAllister) (03/19/88)
In article <46046@sun.uucp> chuq@sun.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >>This has all taken a new turn. Apple announced last night it was suing HP >>and Microsoft for the look and feel of New Wave and Windows 2.03, respectively. >>Won't this be fun. > >gonna be fascinating. Even if they lose or drop it later, it ought to play >havoc with the development of the Presentation Manager. it's even possibly >that Apple may end up with a technology for one of the major parts of the >new generation IBM operating system. Would that be a hoot. Um, I sure hope Apple has more sense than to get in a legal battle with IBM. IBM managed to exhaust the US government! Besides, IBM will just countersue to enforce little things like their patent on text cursors (yes, really, and it has seven or eight years left to run.) Rich McAllister (rfm%urth@sun.com)
chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (03/20/88)
>Um, I sure hope Apple has more sense than to get in a legal battle with IBM. >IBM managed to exhaust the US government! Besides, IBM will just countersue >to enforce little things like their patent on text cursors (yes, really, and >it has seven or eight years left to run.) Nope. In fact one of the more interesting things about the suit is taht they went after HP, but not IBM. I doubt that was an accident. Remember, IBM is not doing the development for OS/2 and the PM. Microsoft is. IBM is just licensing it. So Apple doesn't have to sue the bimmer -- they just have to keep Micrsoft busy for a while. In fact, it's be hard for IBM to get involved in the case directly, since their technology isn't at risk. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM Delphi: CHUQ Speed it up. Keep it Simple. Ship it on time. -- Bill Atkinson
chrisj@ut-emx.UUCP (Chris Johnson) (03/20/88)
Paying Xerox is not necessary for Apple. Two points: 1. Apple hired away a number of the men responsible for creating that interface for Xerox. What did they do to lure them away? They offered them the chance to really bring their ideas to market while working with a group of people who understood the significance of what they were doing. Thus Apple did not steal those ideas from Xerox - they got them from the same place Xerox did, while giving those men, in most respects, an opportunity to do more with their ideas than their former employer Xerox ever did. 2. Apple DID pay Xerox for those ideas even before they hired those men away. In the early days of development of the Mac and before, as I recall, the Lisa was even finished, the boys at Apple knew they wanted a user interface and also knew that they needed good ideas to base their thinking on. So Apple contacted Xerox, where they knew these ideas were being developed, and requested a tour of the labs where these concepts were being brought to life. In exchange for the tour Apple agreed to give Xerox a substantial amount (I can't remember exactly how much) of its stock (non-voting shares I think) to Xerox which was expressing interest in having some share in the young and rapidly growing personal computer market. Xerox accepted and a number of Apple's key people were given a tour of those Xerox labs. The tour made a big impression on a number of the Xerox engineers because the boys from Apple ACTUALLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO ACHEIVE AND WHY! Management, and other engineers at Xerox didn't understand as well as the crew from Apple did. So the group from Apple learned a lot as enthusias- tic programmers showed off the fruits of their labors and discussed the prin- ciples underlying them. In short, not only did Apple get their user interface ideas (or the beginnings of them) from the same source as Xerox itself had acquired them, but Xerox gained partial ownership of Apple in the process. For those of you who would wish to believe that I'm lying through my teeth, get yourselves a copy of "The Journey is the Reward" - the biography of Steve Jobs by an author whose name I regrettably cannot remember. Not only is it just generally very interesting but it covers this period of Apple and Jobs' history in considerable detail.
rogue@well.UUCP (L. Brett Glass) (03/21/88)
> Nope. In fact one of the more interesting things about the suit is taht they > went after HP, but not IBM. I doubt that was an accident. It sure wasn't. Apple would have a much harder time taking on IBM directly. Apple's strategy in the past was to go after the stragglers (DRI). Now, they are still attacking the smallest entities they can. > Remember, IBM is not doing the development for OS/2 and the PM. Microsoft is. Wrong. The graphical interface is being developed by IBM's Hursley labs, with Microsoft's help. > In fact, it's be hard for IBM to get involved in the case directly, > since their technology isn't at risk. Wrong. IBM's SAA, which includes a common user interface on all machines, requires all environments to have a "look and feel" similar to that of the Presentation Manager. If Windows is found to infringe on Apple's purported copyright, IBM is at great risk. As are Amiga, Atari, Sun.... <rogue>
tedj@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Ted Johnson) (03/21/88)
>This has all taken a new turn. Apple announced last night it was suing HP >and Microsoft for the look and feel of New Wave and Windows 2.03, respectively. Really? Where did you hear this? Was it *formally* announced in a newspaper (other than The Enquirer ;-) or on the news? Or is this just a rumor? -Ted
dorner@uxg.cso.uiuc.edu (03/21/88)
>This has all taken a new turn. Apple announced last night it was suing HP >and Microsoft for the look and feel of New Wave and Windows 2.03, respectively. Maybe the courts will settle this thing this time, now that we have two (make that three) companies involved that have the resources to fight the legal battle. And maybe now that Apple is disenchanted with Microsoft, we'll finally see Macintosh BASIC (the nifty one that was killed in deference to Microsoft). All in all, I think this COULD be a lot of fun. ---- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: dorner@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu UUCP: ihnp4!uiucuxc!dorner IfUMust: (217) 333-3339
gillies@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu (03/22/88)
A Xerox Employee is required not to disseminate "Xerox Private Data"
for two years after leaving Xerox. People say it is o.k. to hire
Xerox employees to take advantages of their ideas. These people are
just plain wrong. These employees can be sued by Xerox for releasing
trade secrets (such as the architecture of Star/Bravo/etc).
The plain truth is that Xerox is too disorganized to sue most of its
employees who do this.
One case in point: Several Xerox researchers left the company to form
Adobe. They had already designed the interpress page-description
language, which Xerox kept as a trade secret for many years.
These employees were forced to entirely redesign interpress
("PostScript") and reimplement it in a different way. Luckily, page
description languages were already invented, and it was not too hard
to come up with one that was substantially different from Xerox's.
Another employee who left two years ago could not join {Apple, Adobe,
Imagen, ...} because he would probably be sued. He joined NeXt.
Don Gillies {ihnp4!uiucdcs!gillies} U of Illinois
{gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu}rhsu@topaz.rutgers.edu (Robert Hsu) (03/22/88)
In article <3870@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> (Adam Kao) writes: > > [Apple suing HP] > > Won't this be fun. > > No! No!! Noooooooo!!! Yes! Yes!! Yeeeeeeees!!! It's about time! > Adam Rob rhsu@topaz.rutgers.edu ...!rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!rhsu
peter@nuchat.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (03/22/88)
In article <46046@sun.uucp>, chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: > >This has all taken a new turn. Apple announced last night it was suing HP > >and Microsoft for the look and feel of New Wave and Windows 2.03, > >respectively. Won't this be fun. You think it's funny? > Would that be a hoot. Apparently, so do you. Apple is acting more and more like IBM all the time. Microsoft Windows is a huge kludge that is about as different from the Mac as you can get and still have windows in it. Any of the UNIX windowing systems I've seen are closer. I have a very bad feeling about this... -- -- a clone of Peter (have you hugged your wolf today) da Silva `-_-' -- normally ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter U -- Disclaimer: These aren't mere opinions... these are *values*.
rogue@well.UUCP (L. Brett Glass) (03/23/88)
The above-referenced article is a good list, but may be somewhat Xerox-centric -- i.e., people who were at Xerox may not have known that ideas had surfaced earlier. A few examples: 1) Joanne Dow of BIX claims to have created a version of UCSD Pascal that dimmed "disabled" menu items as early as 1977. 2) Ivan Sutherland's early drawing systems changed the cursor to show context and/or system modes. Some also used icons. In fact, it is likely that a large number of the user interface elements listed above were anticipated by Sutherland. 3) Early CAD systems done during the 60's and early 70's at GM, Ford, and Texas Instruments (to name a few) incorporated many of the same elements. The seeming "obviousness" of many of these elements makes it doubtful whether anyone should be able to claim a "right" to them. It may simply have been a question of who had a need for them (or a machine powerful enough to implement them). <rogue>
macbeth@artecon.UUCP (Beckwith) (03/24/88)
In article <15200003@uxg.cso.uiuc.edu> dorner@uxg.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
<
<>This has all taken a new turn. Apple announced last night it was suing HP
<>and Microsoft for the look and feel of New Wave and Windows 2.03, respectively.
<
<Maybe the courts will settle this thing this time, now that we have two
<(make that three) companies involved that have the resources to fight
<the legal battle.
<
<And maybe now that Apple is disenchanted with Microsoft, we'll finally see
<Macintosh BASIC (the nifty one that was killed in deference to Microsoft).
<
<All in all, I think this COULD be a lot of fun.
The way I hear it, Sculley has had a hankering to nail the Bellevue Bullies
ever since the Mac BASIC debacle way back in '85. Microsoft's mishandling of
that product hurt the Mac in its early days and pissed Apple off no end. Gates
& Co. have produced some fine products for the Mac, but the relationship
between the two organizations has never been better than cordial.
I'm rooting for Apple. The suit seems to have legal merit (in this layperson's
opinion), is an excellent strategic move (disrupting development at a number of
competitors) and demonstrates that Apple, like Big Blue, can play hardball when
they want to. Lest we forget, I Bring Manuals will be throwing lawyers at PS/2
cloners in the not-too-distant future.
Now let's talk about the effect of all those DEC folks that Sun has hired.
Whoops, wrong newsgroup...
--
+ David Macy-Beckwith Artecon, Inc. {sdcsvax,hplabs}!hp-sdd!artecon!macbeth +
+ The Company has enough on its plate || "I didn't come here to argue!" +
+ without supporting the crazed postings || "Yes, you did!" +
+ of its newsaholic minions. || "No, I didn't!" +