domino@sunybcs.uucp (Michael Domino) (02/13/88)
As a programmer I have always agreed with the shareware philosohy:
give users a reasonably priced product, let them try it out, and,
if they find it useful, send the author a relatively small amount.
Cuts out the middleman, makes the software market a more dynamic
place, more responsive to the needs of users. OK. The problem is,
of course, that it doesn't work too well. It's just too damn hard
for the user of a shareware product to go through all the trouble of
addressing an envelope, writing a check, finding a stamp and then
remembering to drop the whole thing in a mailbox. The independent
developers of software, who more often than not work in their spare
time, don't have the resources to make the payment process more
convenient, like the big mail order and software publishing houses,
with a toll-free number, credit card accounts, and extended hours.
To make matters even worse, we have for-profit companies like
Educomp and Public Brand Software that *charge* for a disk full of
shareware, making it even more unlikely that the end user will
pay a second time.
The point of all this rehash is that it occured to me that what
shareware developers need is a way to make payment for their pro-
ducts just as easy and convenient as ordering from an ad or a
catalog...a co-op of some sort that would maintain the toll-free
line, MC and Visa accounts, so that users could just pick up their
phone, blurt out their account number and ease their consciences
with little effort. Members of this organization would receive
periodic payment with a statement, and maybe even a list of buyers
to notify their users of upgrades, new products, etc. Maybe this
organization could publish its own newsletter with that kind of
information...there would have to be a percentage deducted from the
payment to support the service, but 80 or 90% of something is a lot
better than 100% of nothing. How to remind users to call in their
payment? Create a standard piece of code that would put a notice
up x number of times each time the program is run, with the phone
number, and emphasize how easy it is and how much better you'll
feel by supporting such a worthwhile product. Make it humorous.
This way people who never use the program will of course never be
bothered, but those who do will be reminded lots of times about
their obligation to the creator of the software. The pitch could
be supported by advertising in magazines, reminding shareware users
that there won't be any shareware if they don't do their small part
to support the concept, and then we'll all be at the mercy of the
big developers, who shall go unnamed. A similar technique works
very successfully for public TV and radio; I know after a few of
those "membership breaks" I go to the phone if I am a regular user
of the broadcast service and believe I'm getting something worth-
while and should contribute whatever I can afford to support it.
So has this idea been hashed out and rejected? Has anyone ever
thought about it? Send me mail.
Michael Domino @ SUNY/Buffalo
internet: domino@cs.buffalo.edu
uucp: ..!{rutgers,watmath,boulder,decvax}!sunybcs!domino
BITNET: domino@sunybcs.BITNET phone: 716-881-6420mlinar@eve.usc.edu (Mitch Mlinar) (02/16/88)
In article <8502@sunybcs.UUCP> domino@sybil.UUCP (Michael Domino) writes: >As a programmer I have always agreed with the shareware philosohy: >give users a reasonably priced product, let them try it out, and, >if they find it useful, send the author a relatively small amount. >Cuts out the middleman, makes the software market a more dynamic >place, more responsive to the needs of users. OK. The problem is, >of course, that it doesn't work too well. It's just too damn hard >for the user of a shareware product to go through all the trouble of >addressing an envelope, writing a check, finding a stamp and then >remembering to drop the whole thing in a mailbox. The independent > > ............... > >The point of all this rehash is that it occured to me that what >shareware developers need is a way to make payment for their pro- >ducts just as easy and convenient as ordering from an ad or a >catalog...a co-op of some sort that would maintain the toll-free >line, MC and Visa accounts, so that users could just pick up their >phone, blurt out their account number and ease their consciences >with little effort. Members of this organization would receive >periodic payment with a statement, and maybe even a list of buyers >to notify their users of upgrades, new products, etc. Maybe this >organization could publish its own newsletter with that kind of >information...there would have to be a percentage deducted from the >payment to support the service, but 80 or 90% of something is a lot >better than 100% of nothing. How to remind users to call in their >payment? Create a standard piece of code that would put a notice >up x number of times each time the program is run, with the phone >number, and emphasize how easy it is and how much better you'll >feel by supporting such a worthwhile product. Make it humorous. Since mail does not seem to be getting through, I will post on this. Since I own my company (very small) which happens to sell software (not for IBM-PCs though), I agree that such a service would be a big boon. However, what you fail to realize is that marketing/advertisement accounts for somewhere nears 80% of the cost of product. This tends to bother some authors who feel they should get 50 to 80% of the cost, not the pretty much standard 10% (or less!). Another problem is capital investment: you need to have some money to advertise before you sell one disk - a minimum of 3 months for high-profile magazines or 6 months for lower profile. Don't expect any return during this time. Now, you give me a new product to sell, and it takes 3 months of $1000 ads (total for SMALL ads in various magazines) to sell your $30 program. And your program may not sell - so who is liable for the loss: you, this company you propose, or the "consortium" of authors where everyone shares the risk. I don't know how to solve all this, but I do know one thing for certain: only 1 in 15 of those programs will be a REAL success, and less than 1/3 would break even. So, although I like your idea, you would be hard pressed to find anyone to do this. I would, provided I could reject programs immediately or after a period of time with no break-even. I would also need to pay for ads, two phone answering people (to cover 16 hours of incoming calls that I experience now), and all the other things that go with it. Even 10% may be too large for such a low cost program. Any counter suggestions? -Mitch
cnc@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Chris Christensen) (02/17/88)
>To make matters even worse, we have for-profit companies like >Educomp and Public Brand Software that *charge* for a disk full of >shareware, making it even more unlikely that the end user will >pay a second time. To the credit of Educomp, their recent catalog stated that if you sent them a receipt (or cancelled check) from shareware obtained through them, they would give you a discount (can't remember how much, 10$?) on your next purchase from them.
rusty@hodge.UUCP (Rusty Hodge) (02/19/88)
In article <6973@oberon.USC.EDU>, mlinar@eve.usc.edu (Mitch Mlinar) writes: > >The point of all this rehash is that it occured to me that what > >shareware developers need is a way to make payment for their pro- > >ducts just as easy and convenient as ordering from an ad or a > >catalog...a co-op of some sort that would maintain the toll-free > >line, MC and Visa accounts, so that users could just pick up their > >phone, blurt out their account number and ease their consciences ..... > So, although I like your idea, you would be hard pressed to find anyone to > do this. I would, provided I could reject programs immediately or after > a period of time with no break-even. I would also need to pay for ads, > two phone answering people (to cover 16 hours of incoming calls that I > experience now), and all the other things that go with it. Even 10% may > be too large for such a low cost program. I think the idea is to have a service like an answering service. I was playing around with this idea back when I was in the software business (a mere 6 months ago). This would be for shareware only. The agency would simply collect fees and send them to the authors. From the customer (or 'registerer') point of view, you'd download a piece of shareware. It would have a startup screen that said register this by calling an 800 number and paying $xx with your credit card. You give the operator the special shareware ID number from the screen and then she verifies the price. You okay it & it is charged to your credit card. The agency would handle keeping a database of all customers and charges, and every month send out a statement, list of customers and a check. Depending on the volume, you might get checks weekly. After futzing with Excel for a while, I came out with some pricing strategies. There should be 2 levels of service. The casual level would be the most expensive, but it would relieve the developer of any obligations. You register your program & then the service charges you a fixed $6 for each paid customer. The 'professional' level would cost a monthly fee of about $100 and then $2 a call. The service would be available 24 hours, theoretically have an automated response system to do it all with your touch-tone phone if the operators were busy, and would handle any shareware products. Why doesn't this kind of service exist yet? The initial start-up costs would be minimal. It would take the cooperation of the shareware development community to be successful. I would like to start this, but I am involved in to many other things at the moment. As I said before, I have looked into this quite a bit on the past. If there is anyone out there who is interested in seeing something like this start, feel free to give me a call and talk about it. I *really* would like to see something come of this. -- Rusty Hodge, Hodge Computer Research Corp, Orange, CA 92667 (714) 974-6300 rusty@hodge.cts.com [ccicpg!arnold, crash]!hodge!rusty FAX (714) 921-8038 uucp: (714) 921-1090 (login: nuucp) Dial-A-Joke (714) 966-0976
jmunkki@santra.UUCP (Juri Munkki) (02/19/88)
In article <8502@sunybcs.UUCP> domino@sybil.UUCP (Michael Domino) writes: >The point of all this rehash is that it occured to me that what >shareware developers need is a way to make payment for their pro- >ducts just as easy and convenient as ordering from an ad or a >catalog...a co-op of some sort that would maintain the toll-free >line, MC and Visa accounts, so that users could just pick up their >phone, blurt out their account number and ease their consciences A very good idea. I had the same idea about two months ago and told about it to Rich Siegel when he asked about shareware honesty. The only problem is getting someone to do the work. I would probably pay all the shareware I use once a year with a single payment. Juri Munkki jmunkki@fingate.bitnet jmunkki@santra.hut.fi
johnl@ima.ISC.COM (John R. Levine) (02/21/88)
In article <120@hodge.UUCP> rusty@hodge.UUCP (Rusty Hodge) writes: >In article <6973@oberon.USC.EDU>, mlinar@eve.usc.edu (Mitch Mlinar) writes: >> >... Shareware developers need ... >> >a co-op of some sort that would maintain the toll-free >> >line, MC and Visa accounts, so that users could just pick up their >> >phone, blurt out their account number and ease their consciences ... >> So, although I like your idea, you would be hard pressed to find anyone to >> do this. ... There exist companies with 800 numbers, operators standing by, computer terminals at the ready, all prepared to take your name, address, order, and credit card number. They keep lists of common questions that the operators can answer, and can refer more technical calls elsewhere. Many of them will even electronically deposit the bank charges in your account. It seems to me that shareware authors would be smart to make an arrangement with such a company. Their charges are not bad, typically only a few dollars per order. One whom I have talked to although not done business with is the New England 800 Company in Rockland Maine. -- John R. Levine, IECC, PO Box 349, Cambridge MA 02238-0349, +1 617 492 3869 { ihnp4 | decvax | cbosgd | harvard | yale }!ima!johnl, Levine@YALE.something Rome fell, Babylon fell, Scarsdale will have its turn. -G. B. Shaw
brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) (02/22/88)
In article <889@ima.ISC.COM> johnl@ima.UUCP (John R. Levine) writes: >There exist companies with 800 numbers, operators standing by, computer >terminals at the ready, all prepared to take your name, address, order, and >credit card number. They keep lists of common questions that the operators can >answer, and can refer more technical calls elsewhere. Many of them will even >electronically deposit the bank charges in your account. It seems to me that >shareware authors would be smart to make an arrangement with such a company. >Their charges are not bad, typically only a few dollars per order. Well, I daresay I could be wrong, but none of the ones I have talked to will charge the credit cards for you and forward you the money. That's very risky. It's no accident that the credit card companies require that, in order to take Visa or MC, you have a reputable business that has been in operation with no credit problems for a full year. 99% of shareware "suppliers" don't meet this qualification, and so can't charge on credit cards. Note also that if you take phone orders, without signatures, then the customer is entitled to cancel any payment for any reason whatsoever. Very few 800 number services (or Shareware consortiums) would be willing to take on this risk without taking a juicy cut of the receipts. Finally, most 800 number services, while quite reasonable at only a couple of dollars per order, do demand a monthly minimum of a few hundred dollars. (This varies.) This minimum would eat all the profits of the typical shareware "vendor." Other than that, I think the idea of a shareware consortium would be excellent, and would get more people to contribute. Certainly, without it, shareware is a big farce that doesn't work. Too bad there isn't a way to make shareware programs have a limited usage count. That would be the proper solution. Full usage, try-before-you-buy for a month (or N times), and pay if you like the program enough to go beyond that. But there's no way to implement that until we get serial numbers in the hardware or OS/2. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
mclek@dcatla.UUCP (Larry E. Kollar) (02/22/88)
In article <1422@looking.UUCP> brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >In article <889@ima.ISC.COM> johnl@ima.UUCP (John R. Levine) writes: >>There exist companies with 800 numbers, operators standing by, computer >>terminals at the ready, all prepared to take your name, address, order, and >>credit card number.... >> Many of them will even >>electronically deposit the bank charges in your account. > >Well, I daresay I could be wrong, but none of the ones I have talked to will >charge the credit cards for you and forward you the money. That's very >risky. My wife works for a telemarketing company that also handles incoming calls for order-taking. She tells me that it's up to the software company to handle the credit card end -- they take a customer's account number, then forward the information to the vendor. It's up to the vendor to handle credit hassles. An interesting discussion over another proposed solution -- "ad-ware" -- is going on in (I think) comp.society.futures. Check it out. Larry Kollar ...!gatech!dcatla!mclek "It's nice to finally see a Reagan appointee going to court as a judge instead of a defendant." -- Johnny Carson
andrew@stl.stc.co.uk (Andrew Macpherson) (03/20/88)
In the UK there are immense hassles in actually transfering money to US shareware authors (especially if they cannot accept credit cards). The last time I did so directly the bank charged (pounds)4.50 for an International Money order (a cheque on their US branch) --- this for a $38 registration --- (and I havn't had a response from the authors, but that's another story...) There is a company 'Shareware Marketing' (BBS # (+44|0) 732 770539) which is one of the PD/Shareware copying services in the UK. It's one big plus is that they have arranged with a number of Shareware authors to act as a registration clearing-house in the UK (possibly Europe?), and they certainly take Credit Card orders. If you are looking for an international outlet for your software I think it may be worth your while to check what their arrangements are. [IN view of the heat this discussion tends to generate, I must point out: I HAVE NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER WITH THIS COMPANY, NOT EVEN THAT OF CUSTOMER.] -- Andrew Macpherson andrew@stl.stc.co.uk - or - ...!mcvax!ukc!stl!andrew "It is always a great mistake to treat the individual on the chance that he may become a crowd" -- Mr Justice Codd: (A.P.Herbert)
ward@spar.SPAR.SLB.COM (Michael Ward) (04/17/88)
Keywords:International payments shareware money In the US it is usually possible to buy travelers' checks denominated in a foreign currency; these can generally be converted at no charge by the recipient in that country. I buy Bank of America checks in pounds sterling on a regular basis to buy books from the UK; n one has ever had any trouble converting them. BoA has various other currency types available. It is a *lot* cheaper than International Money Orders. I assume the same kind of things should be available at larger banks in most European countries, in dollar denominations. Ditto elsewhere, though I have no personal knowledge. <Digression: Bank of America is a private corporation, not an arm of the federal government of the U.S.> Hope this helps. --Mike Ward
wales@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Rich Wales) (04/19/88)
In article <236@spar.SPAR.SLB.COM> ward@spar.UUCP (Michael Ward) writes:
In the US it is usually possible to buy travelers' checks denomi-
nated in a foreign currency; these can generally be converted at
no charge by the recipient in that country. I buy Bank of America
checks in pounds sterling on a regular basis to buy books from the
UK; no one has ever had any trouble converting them. BoA has var-
ious other currency types available. It is a *lot* cheaper than
International Money Orders.
Yes, but once you sign a travelers' check in both the required spaces
(which you would obviously have to do before mailing it), it is no
safer than cash. My understanding has always been that *anyone* can
cash or deposit a properly signed travelers' check -- regardless of
whether or not their name is shown as payee on the front of the check.
So, if it is lost or stolen in the mail, you have no recourse.
Assuming this is true -- and I hope someone will speak up if it is not
-- you might as well just mail foreign cash as mail a TC.
-- Rich Wales // UCLA CS Dept // wales@CS.UCLA.EDU // +1 (213) 825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall // Los Angeles, California 90024-1596 // USA
...!(ucbvax,rutgers)!ucla-cs!wales ...!uunet!cs.ucla.edu!wales
"Mr. LaForge, when I left this ship it was in one piece!"werner@utastro.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (04/19/88)
In article <11357@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> wales@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Rich Wales) writes: > In article <236@spar.SPAR.SLB.COM> ward@spar.UUCP (Michael Ward) writes: > > In the US it is usually possible to buy travelers' checks denomi- > nated in a foreign currency; these can generally be converted at ~ Yes, but once you sign a travelers' check in both the required spaces ~ (which you would obviously have to do before mailing it), it is no ~ safer than cash. My understanding has always been that *anyone* can ~ cash or deposit a properly signed travelers' check -- regardless of you can endorse the check "FOR DEPOSIT ONLY" on the back which should make it traceable, if not completely safe ...