cyosta@taux01.UUCP (Yossie Silverman) (08/08/88)
Yesterday my mac died. The Harddisk was unreadable by SCSI Setup. MacZap recovered the files but it took a while. The last thing I did was play Continuum. I am convinced that Continuum overwrote the disk cache and thus mangled my Harddisk. I find Continuum to be a very fine game but I think it is EXTREMELY irresponsible to send out a game that has such an obvious bug in it. A question was asked a few days ago concerning how BDC handled the high memory and second video buffer problem, well, it simply refuses to run if it finds anything in its way. In general, the safest course is to run Continuum with a generic system (***NO*** INIT's, including EasyAccess, MacroMaker and CloseView) and NO diskcache. Alternateively it might be possible to turn on the alternate video buffer bit in the boot blocks, I have not checked this yet. -- Yossie Silverman What did the Caspian sea? National Semiconductor Ltd. (Israel) - Saki UUCP: taux01!yossie@nsc.UUCP NSA LSD FBI KGB PCP CIA MOSAD NUCLEAR MI5 SPY ASSASSINATE SDI -- OOCLAY ITAY
isle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Ken Hancock) (08/08/88)
In article <878@taux01.UUCP> taux01!cyosta@nsc.UUCP (Yossie Silverman) writes: >Yesterday my mac died. The Harddisk was unreadable by SCSI Setup. MacZap >recovered the files but it took a while. The last thing I did was play >Continuum. I am convinced that Continuum overwrote the disk cache and thus >mangled my Harddisk. I find Continuum to be a very fine game but I think >it is EXTREMELY irresponsible to send out a game that has such an obvious >bug in it. I've seen a lot of bashing as of late. Ones that come to mind right off had are Continuum and SUM's hard disk partitioner. First, let me address the former. You say you've come across an obvious bug. What's obvious? Obvious for you because you have a Mac XXX with a XXX hard disk running XXX System and XXX INITs. First of all, you've done absolutely NO service to ANYONE except get a little hot air out. In case you weren't aware, Randy Wilson does read the net. What would be helpful to both him and the rest of the people who play Continuum would be to state what kind of Mac, what System, what hard disk, what inits (or at least "none", "a few", or "tons and tons"), and what you think the problem is. Don't misunderstand me. I'd be pissed has hell if I was playing a game and it crashed my hard disk. BUT, hopefully, once my hard disk was crashed, I'd at least find out what the problem was for sure (as far as I could tell), send the author mail, post a warning to networld, and hopefully not blow my top and flame the author right and left. Everyone makes mistakes. Randy made no guarantees as to what works and what doesn't. I'm almost sure he doesn't have 20 different Mac setups to test every configuration. Lastly, as he said, the game is a hack he's been working on. In my opinion, one of the best "hacks" I've seen in a LONG time. Maybe THE best. Now as for Symantec, there's another case. There were some messages that came across and gave configurations. Great. That's what's helpful. But then again, there were more that just decided to blow off some steam and flame with no help to anyone. Folks, we're all adults here, or at least close to being adults. Before you go posting to the net, count to ten, play around to see if you can repeat the error, and then post responsibly. Let us know if it's a problem we might encounter by giving us your system run down. Let the developers narrow down the problem so that they can fix it. That way, at least you might be somewhat happier and have accomplished something for everyone. 'nuff said. Ken Ken Hancock '90 | BITNET/UUCP: isle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu Personal Computing Ctr Consultant | -----------------------------------+---------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER? I don't get paid enough to worry about disclaimers.
cyosta@taux01.UUCP (Yossie Silverman) (08/09/88)
In article <9700@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> isle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Ken Hancock) writes: .In article <878@taux01.UUCP> taux01!cyosta@nsc.UUCP (Yossie Silverman) writes: .>Yesterday my mac died. The Harddisk was unreadable by SCSI Setup. MacZap .>recovered the files but it took a while. The last thing I did was play .>Continuum. I am convinced that Continuum overwrote the disk cache and thus .>mangled my Harddisk. I find Continuum to be a very fine game but I think .>it is EXTREMELY irresponsible to send out a game that has such an obvious .>bug in it. .First, let me address the former. You say you've come across an .obvious bug. What's obvious? Obvious for you because you have a Mac .XXX with a XXX hard disk running XXX System and XXX INITs. First of .all, you've done absolutely NO service to ANYONE except get a little .hot air out. In case you weren't aware, Randy Wilson does read the .net. What would be helpful to both him and the rest of the people who .play Continuum would be to state what kind of Mac, what System, what .hard disk, what inits (or at least "none", "a few", or "tons and .tons"), and what you think the problem is. Well, now. I did not flame anyone in my submit, I was very nice about it I got this game off the net (where things are supposed to be non-destructive at least) and it killed my hard disk. Many others have pointed out the death of their mac after playing it, I think they are lucky, if they had not died, their hard disk would have. The RamCache is an integral part of the mac system and many use it; to submit a program that ignores its existance is bad form to say the least. I did point out what I think the problem was, infact what I KNEW the p problem was. .Don't misunderstand me. I'd be pissed has hell if I was playing a game .and it crashed my hard disk. BUT, hopefully, once my hard disk was .crashed, I'd at least find out what the problem was for sure (as far .as I could tell), send the author mail, post a warning to networld, .and hopefully not blow my top and flame the author right and left. .Everyone makes mistakes. Randy made no guarantees as to what works .and what doesn't. I'm almost sure he doesn't have 20 different Mac .setups to test every configuration. Lastly, as he said, the game is .a hack he's been working on. In my opinion, one of the best "hacks" .I've seen in a LONG time. Maybe THE best. This is exactely what I did!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't you read? I agree its a nice hack, but if it kills my hard disk than I dont like it, would you? I could call you a whole lot of names for that last paragraph, I DONT concider what I sent to be a flame, it was a conservative and resonably informed report of what happened to me. The only thing I neglected to report, and it might make a difference, is that I run AutoBlack which uses the alternate screen buffer. Beyond Dark Castle is smart enough to recognize this and refuse to come up (same message as when the ramcache is on infact). I am convinced that the problem is directely connected with overwritting the ramcache. .Now as for Symantec, there's another case. There were some messages .that came across and gave configurations. Great. That's what's helpful. .But then again, there were more that just decided to blow off some steam .and flame with no help to anyone. My configuration is Mac2e, Dove SCSI, Jasmine 20M. I wouldn't know, I dont have SUM, MacZap is good enough for me. .Folks, we're all adults here, or at least close to being adults. Before .you go posting to the net, count to ten, play around to see if you can .repeat the error, and then post responsibly. Let us know if it's a problem Would you try to crash your hard disk a second time? Well, I did, and yes it repeated. Is that responsible and adult enough for you? .we might encounter by giving us your system run down. Let the developers .narrow down the problem so that they can fix it. That way, at least you .might be somewhat happier and have accomplished something for everyone. . .'nuff said. you bet. .Ken Yossie . .Ken Hancock '90 | BITNET/UUCP: isle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu .Personal Computing Ctr Consultant | .-----------------------------------+---------------------------------------- .DISCLAIMER? I don't get paid enough to worry about disclaimers. -- Yossie Silverman What did the Caspian sea? National Semiconductor Ltd. (Israel) - Saki UUCP: taux01!yossie@nsc.UUCP NSA LSD FBI KGB PCP CIA MOSAD NUCLEAR MI5 SPY ASSASSINATE SDI -- OOCLAY ITAY
hoofb@psu-cs.UUCP (Bruce Hoof) (08/10/88)
In article <878@taux01.UUCP> taux01!cyosta@nsc.UUCP (Yossie Silverman) writes: >Yesterday my mac died. The Harddisk was unreadable by SCSI Setup. MacZap >recovered the files but it took a while. The last thing I did was play >Continuum. I am convinced that Continuum overwrote the disk cache and thus >mangled my Harddisk. I find Continuum to be a very fine game but I think I find this surprising. I downloaded the game and played with it for hours, literally. I played under unifinder with 128K of disk cache and system 5.0 with lots of inits. It has not done any damage that I know about. I did follow certain rules. I was using System 5.0, as 6.0 is buggy and 5.0 has been rock solid. I did not use Easy Access, because of postings about that problem. I did not use multifinder, as the game probably rights directly to vidio and takes over the entire screen. Anything that takes over the screen like that usually will not work under multifinder. Of course It might have something to do with the fact that I have 2.5 meg of memory for the game. I am not disputing your claim, I was just saying that My SE was not showing the same signs as your computer. Bruce Hoof -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DISCLAIMER: I am not attached to any organization. I am just a poor student getting through school. Hopefully soon. -----------------------------+------------------------------------------------- Bruce Hoof | uunet \ hoofb@psu-cs (LOCAL) Computer Science Student | ucbvax }!tektronix!psu-cs!hoofb (UUCP) Portland State University CS | gatech / hoofb@cs.pdx.edu (CSNET) Portland Center for Advanced | ihnp4 / hoofb%cs.pdx.edu@relay.cs.net (ARPANET) -----------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
cyosta@taux02.UUCP ( Yossie Silverman ) (08/10/88)
In article <863@psu-cs.UUCP> hoofb@psu-cs.UUCP (Bruce Hoof) writes: >In article <878@taux01.UUCP> taux01!cyosta@nsc.UUCP (Yossie Silverman) writes: >>Yesterday my mac died. The Harddisk was unreadable by SCSI Setup. MacZap >>recovered the files but it took a while. The last thing I did was play >>Continuum. I am convinced that Continuum overwrote the disk cache and thus >>mangled my Harddisk. I find Continuum to be a very fine game but I think > > I find this surprising. I downloaded the game and played with it >for hours, literally. I played under unifinder with 128K of disk cache and >system 5.0 with lots of inits. It has not done any damage that I know about. If I were you, I would attempt to backup my entire disk, see if any files are screwed up. My mac worked fine after I played continuum but it died within hours, I have 2M. I am convinced by comments made both by the author and others that the problem is that Continuum is writting on memory it shouldn't be writting on. Maybe I was just unlucky to have it write on the diskcache, maybe you will be unlucky like that. I would prefer to wait for the autor to claim that his program DOES NOT write on said memory before I tried it again (after a full backup, of course). The author admited that he hadn't figured out how to check for high memory being in use, that to me is very suspicious. Another mac I know has some bad files that weren't bad before I played continuum, the interesting part is that they were touched not long before I tried continuum on the mac so they may have had some blocks left in the cache. I recomend the backup procedure to check for mangled files/disks to anyone who has tried continuum, it can't hurt, and who knows, it may save you some grief. -- Yossie Silverman What did the Caspian sea? National Semiconductor Ltd. (Israel) - Saki UUCP: taux01!yossie@nsc.UUCP NSA LSD FBI KGB PCP CIA MOSAD NUCLEAR MI5 SPY ASSASSINATE SDI -- OOCLAY ITAY
ack@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Andy J. Williams) (08/10/88)
In article <56@taux02.UUCP> taux01@cyosta@nsc.UUCP ( Yossie Silverman ) writes: >Maybe I was just unlucky to have it write on the >diskcache, maybe you will be unlucky like that. ^^^^^^^^^ You mean RAM Cache right? I don't know of any DISK cache in the mac. Please enlighten me if I am mistaken. -ajw Andy J. Williams '90 |Ack Systems: ack@eleazar.dartmouth.edu| _ /| Software Development +--------------------------------------+ \`o_O' ACK! Kiewit Computation Ctr |Hello. Set $NAME='Iinigo Montoya' You | ( ) / Dartmouth College |kill -9 my process. Prepare to vi. | U
rwilson@polya.Stanford.EDU (Randy Wilson) (08/11/88)
In article <56@taux02.UUCP> taux01@cyosta@nsc.UUCP ( Yossie Silverman ) writes: > My mac worked fine after I played continuum but it died >within hours, I have 2M. I am convinced by comments made both by the author >and others that the problem is that Continuum is writting on memory it >shouldn't be writting on. Maybe I was just unlucky to have it write on the >diskcache, maybe you will be unlucky like that. I would prefer to wait for >the autor to claim that his program DOES NOT write on said memory before I >tried it again (after a full backup, of course). Continuum DOES write to the second screen buffer, which according to Apple is included in "memory it shouldn't be writing on". I have stated this several times. For that reason it is usually (see below) incompatible with the RamCache, ramdisks, many INITs, Macsbug, and System 6.0, among other programs that make use of high memory. > The author admited that >he hadn't figured out how to check for high memory being in use, that to me >is very suspicious. I don't think I wrote that I didn't know how to check. Comparing BufPtr to the end of the 2nd screen buffer is easy and works well. As stated above, Continuum is incompatible with anything that uses the second screen buffer memory. However, it works fine with these if the second buffer is reserved using an INIT that basically just moves BufPtr below the 2nd screen. There is an INIT on sumex that does just that, it was posted to the net some time ago, and I can post it again if necessary. As long as it is run before anything else using the 2nd buffer, Continuum works great, and I've been using it this way the whole time I've been developing it. The problem is that if I check for whether the 2nd buffer is being used, no one can use a reserve-2nd INIT with it, while if I don't check, some people will undoubtedly lose some data through crashes. I chose the latter, and I now know it was a mistake. To compound the problem, I didn't emphasize the incompatibility strongly enough in the original posting, and I didn't include a warning in the notes that accompanied the program. I now realize, however, that I could have had it both ways by warning the user that the second screen was in use and recommending that they exit, but allowing them the ability to continue. This will be included in a future bug-fix release. In the meantime, I'm sorry for any damage my program may have caused, use it with INITs at your own risk, and DO NOT USE IT WITH THE RAMCACHE ON on a Mac+ or SE. >Yossie Silverman Randy Wilson rwilson@polya.stanford.edu
cmoore@maddog.llnl.gov (Christopher B. Moore) (08/11/88)
In article <56@taux02.UUCP> taux01@cyosta@nsc.UUCP ( Yossie Silverman ) writes: >[Continuum game mangles the ram cache]... >I recomend the backup procedure to check for mangled >files/disks to anyone who has tried continuum, it can't hurt, and who knows, >it may save you some grief. Having played continuum on my hard disk with the ram cache on I am worried that there may be some bad files out there waiting for me to step on them. I would rather not find them by backing up the disk since this takes forever and overwrites the backup of the (potentially) damaged files. Does anyone have a program which simply reads every file on the disk and checks for obviously corrupted files?? Christopher B. Moore cmoore@maddog.llnl.gov
macak@lakesys.UUCP (Jim Macak) (08/11/88)
In article <3562@polya.Stanford.EDU> rwilson@polya.Stanford.EDU (Randy Wilson) writes: >In article <56@taux02.UUCP> taux01@cyosta@nsc.UUCP ( Yossie Silverman ) writes: (Most all of the reply is deleted here for puroses of brevity.) >In the meantime, I'm sorry for any damage my program may have caused, use >it with INITs at your own risk, and DO NOT USE IT WITH THE RAMCACHE ON on a >Mac+ or SE. >Randy Wilson >rwilson@polya.stanford.edu I'd just like to pause briefly amidst all this controversy regarding Mr. Wilson's Continuum game and comment on the note that he left about problems that people are having running the game. Mr. Wilson's note is a fine example of civil and gentlemanly behavior in response to comments that were, at times, rather caustic. I'd like to commend Mr. Wilson for his responsible and responsive note and also ask him to continue to work on his masterful Macintosh game. Thanks, Randy. Jim -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Jim --> macak@lakesys.UUCP (Jim Macak) {Standard disclaimer, nothin' fancy!} >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
kent@lloyd.camex.uucp (Kent Borg) (08/12/88)
In article <9728@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU>, ack@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Andy J. Williams) writes: > In article <56@taux02.UUCP> taux01@cyosta@nsc.UUCP ( Yossie Silverman ) writes: > >diskcache, maybe you will be unlucky like that. > ^^^^^^^^^ > You mean RAM Cache right? I don't know of any DISK cache in the mac. > Please enlighten me if I am mistaken. Depends on how you say it. The Ram cache IS a disk cache. RAM is used to cache disk information. Kent Borg kent@lloyd.uucp or hscfvax!lloyd!kent
walter@garth.UUCP (Walter Bays) (08/13/88)
Whaddya want for nuthin? Rrrrrrubber biscuit?? Don't get the blues, Randy. Keep writing good games. And I'll keep running _all_ games from floppy disk. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ My opinions are my own. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear. E-Mail route: ...!pyramid!garth!walter (415) 852-2384 USPS: Intergraph APD, 2400 Geng Road, Palo Alto, California 94303 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tedj@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Ted Johnson) (08/13/88)
>and overwrites the backup of the (potentially) damaged files. Does anyone >have a program which simply reads every file on the disk and checks for >obviously corrupted files?? Try using Disk Express. It has an option to do this. -Ted