drew@sdeggo.UUCP (Drew Dean) (08/06/88)
First: I'm a registered owner of LS Pascal 1.00. When I bought it last
October, the dealer didn't have 1.11, yet, but a friend gave me the update
file that had been posted on CompuServe. Ok, I'm happy: good compiler,
useful update....Now comes LS Pascal 2.0..... I have not received any info
from Think or Symantec yet, and when I called earlier this week, I was told
it would ship in September, all registered owners would receive a letter in
late August, and it would cost $50. $50! This is for a product that
MacConnection is selling (last time I looked) for $65 ! I bet if I order it
from MacConnection as soon as they get it, I'll get it faster than paying
Think to update my old one, (assuming my experiences with other software
hold true, maybe Think has a wonderful policy-- those who update get their
updates BEFORE the product ships, but if they do, there the only ones...)
I am also upset because Think has let the libraries slip into a nearly
useless state if you're trying to work with Volume 5 stuff.
Think also advertises Object Pascal support as being now, and in the
next sentence says ability to compile MacApp coming soon ! What
kind of Object Pascal support is that ? Sounds just about as useful
as the "Object Pascal" support in the old TML compiler.....
Gees...$70 buys me the new TML compiler which they CLAIM will compile MacApp
(has anyone tested this ?), with the MPW shell (needed to run SemperSoft
Modula-2 [the language I REALLY perfer]), and it's shipping now (or so I'm
led to believe, then again it may not be...)
Come on, Think...your updates used to be free, but after your acquisition by
Symantec, things seem to be changing....Why I remember I few short months
ago the updates for LS C 2.13 & 2.15 coming over comp.binaries.mac....
To all those who are going to accuse me of mindless Think bashing:
I'm not--if I can get a good price on LS C 3.0 tomorrow, I'm going to
buy it, else I'll order it from MacConnection Monday.
Drew Dean
drew@sdeggo.UUCP
FROM Disclaimers IMPORT StandardDisclaimer;drc@claris.UUCP (Dennis Cohen) (08/07/88)
A number of points need to be discussed here.
1. You claim that a $50 upgrade is outrageous for a product that MacConnection
sells for $65. Upgrade prices are based against list (which for LSP is
$125) and THINK does get their upgrades out in reasonable time (they ship
the first batch of them at the same time that the first batch goes to
distributors).
2. I agree with you about SemperSoft Modula-2. It is also my favorite. I
ported TransSkel, TransDisplay, and TransEdit to both it and TML Modula-2.
I _gave_ this stuff to both Mike Amling at Semper and Tom Leonard at TML
with a letter from Paul Dubois that they were PD and a letter from me that
they were free for distribution. Tom chose not to include them, Mike did.
3. I'm a little biased at the moment concerning Pascal compilers. Ken Butler
and I wrote PasMat and PasRef utilities. TML is shipping our MPW tool
implementations with TML II under non-exclusive license. I sent PasMat to
Think as a possible solution to the (expletive-deleted) editor of theirs
in the hopes that its flexibility could be integrated so that if your
source is going to be reformatted, at least it will be to your preferred
style. They never got back to me. The tools are currently being
evaluated by Borland. I use MPW most of the time because I mix languages.
TML Pascal II does compile MacApp NOW (it ships this week at MacWorld
Expo in Boston) because Tom ran his compiler against the MPW validation
suite. For the price-point, it is an excellent purchase (if it would only
do true packing -- only MPW does at the moment). I understand that the
"MacApp soon" part for LSP is due to source level changes that need to be
made to MacApp for the different environment (compiler directives and
segmentation?). Borland will probably be upgrading their product soon --
they're a major force and I doubt that Phillipe will allow them to be
left very far behind.
Being opinionated today (and rambling),
Dennis Cohen
Claris Corp.
------------
Disclaimer: Any opinions expressed above are _MINE_!singer@endor.harvard.edu (Rich Siegel) (08/08/88)
In article <232@sdeggo.UUCP> drew@sdeggo.UUCP (Drew Dean) writes: >useful update....Now comes LS Pascal 2.0..... I have not received any info >from Think or Symantec yet, and when I called earlier this week, I was told >it would ship in September, all registered owners would receive a letter in >late August, and it would cost $50. $50! This is for a product that a) It's August 8th now, not "late" August. As we speak, the letters are being stuffed and mailed by two very hardworking ladies. b) The $50 upgrade includes a new product, new package, new manual, and the salaries for the people to put it together. >MacConnection is selling (last time I looked) for $65 ! I bet if I order it >from MacConnection as soon as they get it, I'll get it faster than paying a) MacConnection can offer product cheaper because of volume pricing. b) Yes, you probably will get it faster. Updates are now handled through Symantec's offices in California, and they have to deal with THINK C, THINK Pascal, Capps, SUM, TimeLine, Q&A, SQZ, and all the associated stuff. They're five times bigger than THINK once was, and this kind of operation takes time. >I am also upset because Think has let the libraries slip into a nearly >useless state if you're trying to work with Volume 5 stuff. When Lightspeed Pascal 1.11 came out, we provided the latest interfaces that were available. It's true we haven't updated the interfaces since then, however. > Think also advertises Object Pascal support as being now, and in the > next sentence says ability to compile MacApp coming soon ! What No, the next sentence does NOT say "ability to compile MacApp coming soon", it says "MacApp coming soon". In fact, the issues involved in porting MacApp rest largely on the fact that Lightspeed Pascal can only do segmentation on a per-file basis instead of a per-procedure basis as in MPW. >Come on, Think...your updates used to be free, but after your acquisition by >Symantec, things seem to be changing....Why I remember I few short months >ago the updates for LS C 2.13 & 2.15 coming over comp.binaries.mac.... Yes, and I remember that as well. However, those updates were updates that could be patched into existing copies, and were cheap and easy to distribute. Major new releases of software can not be patched in, and can't be produced for nothing. To paraphrase an earlier post of Michael Kahl - during the product histories of THINK C and THINK Pascal, there have been various free patches and updates, and during that time, the developers of THINK Technologies have continued to be paid their salaries. >To all those who are going to accuse me of mindless Think bashing: FLAME ON I won't accuse you of THINK bashing, only of being mindless. FLAME OFF My apologies for the above. Since I'm directly involved with Lightspeed Pascal 2.0, I tend to get sensitive about such things. --Rich Rich Siegel Quality Assurance Technician THINK Technologies Division, Symantec Corp. Internet: singer@endor.harvard.edu UUCP: ..harvard!endor!singer Phone: (617) 275-4800 x305
hpoppe@scdpyr.ucar.edu (Herb Poppe) (08/09/88)
In article <232@sdeggo.UUCP> drew@sdeggo.UUCP (Drew Dean) writes: >... [THINK bashing omitted] > Think also advertises Object Pascal support as being now, and in the > next sentence says ability to compile MacApp coming soon ! What > kind of Object Pascal support is that ? Sounds just about as useful > as the "Object Pascal" support in the old TML compiler..... >... [more THINK bashing omitted] I just got my LSP 2.0 Upgrade Order Form. The cover letter gives a (too) brief highlight of version 2.0 features. MacApp is not mentioned. On the upgrade form there is a questionnaire. One of the questions is: Would you buy MacApp for use with THINK Pascal? ^^^ Looks like MacApp availability for LSP from THINK will be an extra cost item that won't ship at the same time as LSP 2.0. As a point of reference (taken from APDAlog, April '88): MPW: Macintosh Programmer's Workshop v2.0.2 KMS020 $200.00 MPW Pascal: Macintosh Programmer's Workshop Pascal v2.0.2 KMS023 150.00 MacApp: The Expandable Macintosh Application v1.1.1 KMSMAI 100.00 MacApp 1.1 Source Listings KMBA11 30.00 MPW v2.0.2 Software Update KMS025 15.00 MPW Pascal v2.0.2 Software Update KMS026 15.00 MPW 2.0 Reference Manual Update KMB002 20.00 MPW Pascal 2.0 Reference Manual Update KMB004 19.25 MacApp v1.1.1 Update KMSU11 15.00 LSP 2.0 still looks like a great deal to me. Herb Poppe NCAR INTERNET: hpoppe@scdpyr.UCAR.EDU (303) 497-1296 P.O. Box 3000 CSNET: hpoppe@ncar.CSNET Boulder, CO 80307 UUCP: hpoppe@scdpyr.UUCP
florman@randvax.UUCP (Bruce Florman) (08/09/88)
In article <5093@husc6.harvard.edu> singer@endor.UUCP (Rich Siegel) writes: [ response to a THINK flame ] > My apologies for the above. Since I'm directly involved with Lightspeed >Pascal 2.0, I tend to get sensitive about such things. > > --Rich > > >Rich Siegel >Quality Assurance Technician >THINK Technologies Division, Symantec Corp. After reading the ad for THINK'S Lightspeed Pascal 2.0, I find myself rather worried. Not by what I read, but by what I didn't read. The ad don't say diddly about LSP 2.0 working under MultiFinder! If it isn't MF compatable, then I really can't justify getting the upgrade at any price. Can Rich, Michael or somebody else at THINK either confirm or deny that LSP 2.0 will run under MultiFinder? -- florman@rand-unix.ARPA {decvax,sdcrdcf,trwrb,trwspf,vortex}!rand-unix!gnu!florman "There is no limit to the amount of good that people can accomplish, if they don't care who gets the credit." - Anonymous
Sierra@cup.portal.com (08/09/88)
Not to change the subject, but, Rich.... Have you guys given any consideration to porting the LightSpeed C applicatier t Comments ???
ben@tasis.utas.oz (Ben Lian) (08/10/88)
In article <232@sdeggo.UUCP> drew@sdeggo.UUCP (Drew Dean) writes: >First: I'm a registered owner of LS Pascal 1.00. When I bought it last >October, the dealer didn't have 1.11, yet, but a friend gave me the update >file that had been posted on CompuServe. Ok, I'm happy: good compiler, >useful update....Now comes LS Pascal 2.0..... I have not received any info >from Think or Symantec yet, and when I called earlier this week, I was told >it would ship in September, all registered owners would receive a letter in >late August, and it would cost $50. $50! This is for a product that >MacConnection is selling (last time I looked) for $65 ! I bet if I order it >from MacConnection as soon as they get it, I'll get it faster than paying > .... >Come on, Think...your updates used to be free, but after your acquisition by >Symantec, things seem to be changing....Why I remember I few short months >ago the updates for LS C 2.13 & 2.15 coming over comp.binaries.mac.... My sympathies. I bought LS Pascal a year ago from the (then) Australian distributors, and duly mailed off my registration card. Since then I have not heard a squeak out of anyone, either the distributor or Think. I got hold of the 1.11 upgrade only because I happen to be on the net. And I'll bet I won't get any notification of 2.0. What about people who don't have access to the Mac newsgroups? Oh, and I wouldn't be unduly upset about US$50 for a 2.0 upgrade. You should see the prices we pay for hardware and software down here in Oz. :-( --------------------------------------------------------------------- Benjamin Yin-Hon Lian ACSnet: ben@tasis.utas.oz Dept. of EE & CS ARPA : ben%tasis.utas.oz.au@uunet.uu.net University of Tasmania BITnet: munnari!tasis.utas.oz!ben@ GPO Box 252C uunet.uu.net (I think) Hobart, Tasmania 7001 UUCP : {enea,hplabs,mcvax,uunet,ukc}! Australia. munnari!tasis.utas.oz!ben
ben@tasis.utas.oz (Ben Lian) (08/10/88)
In article <5093@husc6.harvard.edu> singer@endor.UUCP (Rich Siegel) writes: >In article <232@sdeggo.UUCP> drew@sdeggo.UUCP (Drew Dean) writes: >>Come on, Think...your updates used to be free, but after your acquisition by >>Symantec, things seem to be changing....Why I remember I few short months >>ago the updates for LS C 2.13 & 2.15 coming over comp.binaries.mac.... > > Yes, and I remember that as well. However, those updates were updates >that could be patched into existing copies, and were cheap and easy to >distribute. Major new releases of software can not be patched in, and can't >be produced for nothing. Quite right. I think most of us are happy paying a reasonable amount of money for good software if it really represents value-for-money. I only wish that being a registered user meant a little more than no information whatsoever. Sigh. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Benjamin Yin-Hon Lian ACSnet: ben@tasis.utas.oz Dept. of EE & CS ARPA : ben%tasis.utas.oz.au@uunet.uu.net University of Tasmania BITnet: munnari!tasis.utas.oz!ben@ GPO Box 252C uunet.uu.net (I think) Hobart, Tasmania 7001 UUCP : {enea,hplabs,mcvax,seismo,ukc}! Australia. munnari!tasis.utas.oz!ben
kent@lloyd.camex.uucp (Kent Borg) (08/10/88)
I just got my upgrade notice on Monday, and that was forwarded from my old address, so I know ONE notice has been sent, presumably other registered LSP owners will soon get their's. ------------- "$50!?" Why not? It is an excellent product--that's cheap! Do you know how many Macintosh programmers there are out there? It is a small, specialized market. By (argueable) rights a great program like LSP should cost 6 times MORE than (something like) Illustrator 88, not 6 times LESS. So why is everybody complaining so much? Here we are having fun with the greatest computer ever, using what has to be among the best development environments ever, and grousing about $50. Really! Kent Borg kent@lloyd.uucp or hscfvax!lloyd!kent
clubmac@runx.ips.oz (Macintosh Users Group) (08/14/88)
In article <664@tasis.utas.oz> ben@tasis.utas.oz.au (Ben Lian) writes: >In article <5093@husc6.harvard.edu> singer@endor.UUCP (Rich Siegel) writes: >>In article <232@sdeggo.UUCP> drew@sdeggo.UUCP (Drew Dean) writes: >>>Come on, Think...your updates used to be free, but after your acquisition by >>>Symantec, things seem to be changing....Why I remember I few short months >>>ago the updates for LS C 2.13 & 2.15 coming over comp.binaries.mac.... >> >> Yes, and I remember that as well. However, those updates were updates >>that could be patched into existing copies, and were cheap and easy to >>distribute. Major new releases of software can not be patched in, and can't h >be produced for nothing. > >Quite right. I think most of us are happy paying a reasonable amount of money >for good software if it really represents value-for-money. I only wish that >being a registered user meant a little more than no information whatsoever. >Sigh. I agree - the local upgrade price for LSC 3.0 is A$129 (= US$103), which I think is VERY reasonable considering that registered users are getting a completely NEW package, new manuals, new software - that's bloody great for A$129! I also agree about the appalling lack of support by the former Australian distributors for the Lightspeed products. They still haven't sent the list of registered users to the new distributors, TechFlow, despite giving assurances that this would be done in July. It will be interesting to see whether my LSC 3.0 upgrade (which I ordered on Friday, August 12) arrives on Monday the 15th, as TechFlow have indicated that it went out the same day as they received my order (Friday). Jason Haines - President, Club Mac Australia's largest Macintosh Users Group, with over 1000 members. Phone Home: +61-2-73-1016 OZ Post: Box 213, Holme Building, Sydney University, NSW, 2006, Australia Internet: clubmac@runx.ips.oz.au UUCP: uunet!runx.ips.oz.au!clubmac
tedj@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Ted Johnson) (08/15/88)
>Quite right. I think most of us are happy paying a reasonable amount of money >for good software if it really represents value-for-money. I only wish that >being a registered user meant a little more than no information whatsoever. >Sigh. I agree! I'd be willing to pay $1.00 more for an upgrade, if that dollar would buy me a WRITTEN MAILED NOTIFICATION OF THE UPGRADE!!! Gee, LSC is one of the few pieces of software I bought. Maybe I'll have to go back to pirating! (Lots of :-) 's ) -Ted
singer@endor.harvard.edu (Rich Siegel) (08/15/88)
Yes, it will run under MultiFinder. Yes, it will work correctly on a Mac II. R. Rich Siegel Quality Assurance Technician THINK Technologies Division, Symantec Corp. Internet: singer@endor.harvard.edu UUCP: ..harvard!endor!singer Phone: (617) 275-4800 x305