u545731798ea@deneb.ucdavis.edu (L. Greg DeMichillie) (08/27/88)
I for one am quite glad that everyone and their cousing isn't writing printer drivers. A recent MacWeek editorial made the point that what does the user do if Claris' software won't print to a Xereox printer using Cricket's driver and Apple's operating system? Who ya gonna call? Printer drivers are the biggest hassle in the MS-DOS world. Each application comes on 6 disks, one for the program and 5 to support every god-awful printer ever built. And you can be damn sure that when Epson upgrades their printers that you will need new and improved drivers to take advantage of their featuers. My response: LET MS-DOS KEEP THE TROUBLE Of course, device independent printing is the ideal, as I am sure Apple is aware and working on. But until that day, I'll stick with Apple printers and Apple drivers. ----- L. Greg DeMichillie "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way" u545731798ea@deneb.ucdavis.edu - Jessica Rabbit lgdemichillie@deneb.ucdavis.edu AppleLink: ST0178
sbb@esquire.UUCP (Stephen B. Baumgarten) (08/28/88)
In article <2943@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> u545731798ea@deneb.ucdavis.edu.UUCP (L. Greg DeMichillie) writes: >Printer drivers are the biggest hassle in the MS-DOS world. Each application >comes on 6 disks, one for the program and 5 to support every god-awful printer >ever built. And you can be damn sure that when Epson upgrades their printers >that you will need new and improved drivers to take advantage of their featuers. > >My response: LET MS-DOS KEEP THE TROUBLE > >Of course, device independent printing is the ideal, as I am sure Apple is >aware and working on. But until that day, I'll stick with Apple printers >and Apple drivers. But it is interesting that Apple was able to provide a good measure of video display independence (i.e., any correctly written Mac application should be able to run unmodified on any size/resolution monitor, or even multiple monitors). MS-DOS programs usually also have to include a disk or 2 of drivers for various different video displays, and a program that provides support for more than a handful of different displays is the exception, rather than the rule. -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." {uunet,cmcl2}!esquire!sbb | sbb%esquire@cmcl2.nyu.edu | - David Letterman
merchant@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Peter Merchant) (08/28/88)
In article <2943@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> L. Greg DeMichillie writes: >Printer drivers are the biggest hassle in the MS-DOS world. Each application >comes on 6 disks, one for the program and 5 to support every god-awful printer >ever built. And you can be damn sure that when Epson upgrades their printers >that you will need new and improved drivers to take advantage of their featuers. > >My response: LET MS-DOS KEEP THE TROUBLE Every MS-DOS software package has to do this because there are lots of printers out there and that MS-DOS does not provide any form of device independent printing. What I want is to be able to buy an Epson FX-286, call up Epson, and for an extra $8 or so they send me a printer driver for my Macintosh. I get the disk, copy the file into my system folder, and I'm golden. What I'm seeing is a replay of the MS-DOS world. Apple doesn't support other people's printers, the printer manufacturers have no wish to invest the time and effort figuring and refiguring how to support Apple computers, so developers (like Claris or Cricket) have to write support drivers for every known printer and ship them with their products. So you buy MacDraw II and end up with (n) other disks to support other printers. --- "Where everything was as fresh Peter Merchant (merchant@eleazar.UUCP) as a bright blue sky..." (merchant@eleazar.dartmouth.edu) (Peter.G.Merchant@dartmouth.edu)
kaufman@polya.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman) (08/28/88)
In article <9942@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> Peter.G.Merchant@dartmouth.edu (Peter Merchant) writes: >What I'm seeing is a replay of the MS-DOS world. Apple doesn't support >other people's printers, the printer manufacturers have no wish to invest the >time and effort figuring and refiguring how to support Apple computers, so >developers (like Claris or Cricket) have to write support drivers for every >known printer and ship them with their products. So you buy MacDraw II and >end up with (n) other disks to support other printers. Well, actually, the Apple situation is better than that. Printer device manufacturers need to either supply their own driver, or contract with someone else to write one for them. If the driver is well written, almost all applications can use them transparently from the chooser. There are only a few APPLICATIONS nowadays that do not follow the general form of the Apple guidelines, so there is a good chance that a driver will work almost everywhere. The problems usually occur when applications "know" that all printers print to "pages", so, for instance, Microsoft Word asks whether you want letter or legal size when a slide printer is selected (my, how often Microsoft is the example we choose when we want to demonstrate how something should not be done). MPW does not bring up a Job dialog, so some device parameters can NOT be selected for some devices. etc. The gripe printer DRIVER writers have is not so much that the interface is not documented (it is,... well enough), but that there has been no thought given to printer devices that are not isomorphic to laserwriters and imagewriters. AND, it has so far been impossible to enforce APPLICATIONS adherance to the fine points in the guidelines. For instance, most applications do not look at the "resolution" fields of the PrintRec, and those that do - do it differently for each one. I had one application developer tell me that "I" had to change because he had already shipped 8000 copies of code that used fake Handles for the PrintRec, thus causing a Handle operation to bomb in the driver. (grumble, grumble,...) Marc Kaufman (kaufman@polya.stanford.edu)
bob@eecs.nwu.edu (Bob Hablutzel) (08/29/88)
>What I want is to be able to buy an Epson FX-286, call up Epson, and for an >extra $8 or so they send me a printer driver for my Macintosh. I get the >disk, copy the file into my system folder, and I'm golden. 100% agreement here. Apple's policy at this point seems to be aimed at preventing other vendors from entering the (highly lucrative) printer business. Apple should provide printer manufacturers, at the very least, the directions for building printer drivers Apple's argument that the printer drivers are to volatile for other people to write only suggests that something is very screwed up with the printer interface. Bob Hablutzel BOB@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU Disclaimer: My bosses don't think I know anything, either.
lippin@skippy.berkeley.edu (The Apathist) (08/29/88)
Recently kaufman@polya.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman) wrote: >The gripe printer DRIVER writers have is not so much that the >interface is not documented (it is,... well enough), but that there >has been no thought given to printer devices that are not isomorphic >to laserwriters and imagewriters. AND, it has so far been impossible >to enforce APPLICATIONS adherance to the fine points in the >guidelines. As a printer driver writer, I have to object. I've seen only a few scraps of documentation from Apple on writing printer drivers since the IM phone book, and that only gave a few hints, which were taken out of the later documentation. Most of the info that's available is from people outside of Apple who've taken the system apart to see how it works. Mostly it's "Apple's drivers do this; if you do almost the same thing, maybe your driver will work." (Mine even worked with a program from the M-company. I was surprised.) On the other hand, your point is well taken. I'd rather have my driver break with a few system releases while Apple tries to get things right, than have them document, and thus freeze, the printing manager in its current, rather brain-damaged state. You've got to know when to code it, --Tom Lippincott know when to log out, ..ucbvax!math!lippin know when to single-step, know when to run...
ech@poseidon.UUCP (Edward C Horvath) (08/29/88)
! I for one am quite glad that everyone and their cousing isn't writing ! printer drivers. A recent MacWeek editorial made the point that what does ! the user do if Claris' software won't print to a Xereox printer using Cricket's ! driver and Apple's operating system? Who ya gonna call? ! Printer drivers are the biggest hassle in the MS-DOS world. Each application ! comes on 6 disks, one for the program and 5 to support every god-awful printer ! ever built. And you can be damn sure that when Epson upgrades their printers ! that you will need new and improved drivers to take advantage of their featuers. ! My response: LET MS-DOS KEEP THE TROUBLE ! Of course, device independent printing is the ideal, as I am sure Apple is ! aware and working on. But until that day, I'll stick with Apple printers ! and Apple drivers. Your sentiment is appreciated. However, the situation is a bit different in the Macintosh case: in particular, all (properly-written) Mac applications open the printer interface, then "draw" each page using Quickdraw calls. The printer driver is responsible for capturing the Quickdraw (the infamous bottlenecks) and turning them into whatever is needed for the printer. Thus Quickdraw is the printer-and-application-independent medium of exchange. So the MacWeek concerns, and yours, are ill-founded. If it prints on an ImageWriter with Apple's driver, it ought to print on XYZ's printer with PDQ's driver. If it doesn't, call PDQ and tell 'em to get it right (or get XYZ to fix it). The only exception I know of is that some applications feed "PostScript comments" through the Quickdraw interface when they "know" there's a PostScript printer on the other side. Again, if it prints on an Adobe-supported LaserWriter, it ought to run on any putative clones. The simple fact is that printer drivers are a black art, a jealously-guarded secret (even WITHIN Apple, from the rumors I've heard). There's no excuse for keeping this information under wraps for over four years. But then, there is certainly no pressure within Apple to actually document and publish the printer driver interface: why on earth would they want to make it easy to break their near-monopoly on Mac printers? Recognize that Apple are (rightly) interested in supporting only those developers who are going to facilitate sales of APPLE's products. They get no bucks, nor warm fuzzies, from sales of other devices, so you have to somehow convince them that Calcomp support is a gating factor on some number of Mac sales. Do that, and you'll get action. =Ned Horvath=
fjo@ttrdf.UUCP (Frank Owen ) (08/29/88)
in article <2943@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, u545731798ea@deneb.ucdavis.edu (L. Greg DeMichillie) says: > > > I for one am quite glad that everyone and their cousing isn't writing > printer drivers. Yeh. Who wants a choice in printers anyways? We SHOULD be satisfied with what Apple has to offer. I'm sure that they MUST have a printer availible that addresses all of our particuliar needs. And at a competitive (competing with WHO?) price to boot! > Of course, device independent printing is the ideal, as I am sure Apple is > aware and working on. But until that day, I'll stick with Apple printers > and Apple drivers. > Device independent printing was a design goal from day one. How do you think Apple can come out with radically diverse printers that pretty much work with all prior applications just by supplying a printer driver? Another frustrated printer driver writer: -- Frank Owen (fjo@ttrdf) 312-982-2182 AT&T Information Systems Computer Systems Division, 5555 Touhy Ave., Skokie, IL 60077 PATH: ...!att!ttrdf!fjo
ech@poseidon.UUCP (Edward C Horvath) (08/29/88)
> What I'm seeing is a replay of the MS-DOS world. Apple doesn't support > other people's printers, the printer manufacturers have no wish to invest the > time and effort figuring and refiguring how to support Apple computers, so > developers (like Claris or Cricket) have to write support drivers for every > known printer and ship them with their products. So you buy MacDraw II and > end up with (n) other disks to support other printers. I think you missed the signature on the original complaint: a gentleman from Calcomp, who make LOTS of classy output devices. He recognizes that if he is going to sell his peripherals to Mac owners, he is going to have to supply Mac drivers for his peripherals. He wants to provide and is trying to provide that support, and he is not getting any assistance from the printer people at Apple. If it is also the case that Apple cannot sell Macintoshes to those who need Calcomp equipment -- which is most of the CAD/CAM market Apple is trying to penetrate -- this insensitivity is costing Apple sales. Convince an Apple salesmen or two of that, and you (may) get the support you need. Trying to get help from anybody because you expect them to be "nice" is just silly; Apple, despite the save-the-world posturing, is no exception. =Ned Horvath=
jweeks@umnd-cpe-cola.d.umn.edu (John A. Weeks III) (08/30/88)
A bit of devil's advocate might fit into the printer driver discussion: Software developers always try to appeal to the widest audience possible when writing general purpose software. To meet this goal, the programmer will often assume the user has the least common denominator hardware. If two printers of unequal function are in general use, the special features of the better printer will not be well supported (it will not allow the program to work as is with the widest array of printers). If a number of dot-matrix printers are available for the Mac, the overall quality of dot-matrix printing may become much worse. Even if several super good printers come on the market, its special features may not fit into the context of programs written to support a $79 Star Print-o-matic. Perhaps Apple has raised the quality of printing by withholding the documentation on printer drivers. This might make the ImageWriter II a few dollars more expensive that if it were an open market type item, but it is a small price to pay for uniform printer quality and all programs working with the same printer. One only has to look at the IBM world for "proof". Several times applications have crossed my desk containing several disks full of printer drivers, only to overlook one of my printers. The ImageWriter II is supported by several IBM programs, but only the basic features. The Imagewriter II allows font downloading. Do you ever see printer drivers supporting this feature? Anything the Epson can't do doesn't get done. Get out the flame guns and go to it... And an afterthought: UltraScript is not 100% PostScript compatible. Is Apple going to alter LaserPrep to compensate? OS/2: Just Say No! An Apple-A-Day Takes My Credit Card Away. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John A. Weeks III jweeks@luke.d.umn.edu Disclaimer: I know nothing, I don't exist. jweeks@cola.d.umn.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------
anson@spray.CalComp.COM (Ed Anson) (08/30/88)
In article <2943@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> u545731798ea@deneb.ucdavis.edu.UUCP (L. Greg DeMichillie) writes: > >Printer drivers are the biggest hassle in the MS-DOS world. Each application >comes on 6 disks, one for the program and 5 to support every god-awful printer >ever built. That's why Apple needs to support development of Chooser level drivers for the printers that are coming on the market. Otherwise, we'll get into the same situation as MS-DOS. It's already happening. Applications are already appearing which support certain printers through special drivers. If a Chooser level driver were available, this wouldn't be necessary. A proper driver should work with the printer is comes with, and with EVERY application. > >Of course, device independent printing is the ideal, as I am sure Apple is >aware and working on. But until that day, I'll stick with Apple printers >and Apple drivers. And until that day, you won't be printing in color. -- ===================================================================== Ed Anson, Calcomp Display Products Division, Hudson NH 03051 (603) 885-8712, anson@elrond.CalComp.COM
dgold@Apple.COM (David Goldsmith) (08/30/88)
In article <474@poseidon.UUCP> ech@poseidon.UUCP (Edward C Horvath) writes: >The simple fact is that printer drivers are a black art, a jealously-guarded >secret (even WITHIN Apple, from the rumors I've heard). There's no excuse >for keeping this information under wraps for over four years. > >But then, there is certainly no pressure within Apple to actually document >and publish the printer driver interface: why on earth would they want to >make it easy to break their near-monopoly on Mac printers? Recognize that >Apple are (rightly) interested in supporting only those developers who are >going to facilitate sales of APPLE's products. They get no bucks, nor warm >fuzzies, from sales of other devices, so you have to somehow convince them >that Calcomp support is a gating factor on some number of Mac sales. Do that, >and you'll get action. > >=Ned Horvath= I must take issue with this. Apple certainly does derive revenue if we sell a Macintosh to someone who would not have bought one otherwise if it could not drive a favorite output device. I won't attempt to explain why Mac has gone so long without a supported way of third parties writing print drivers, but I can assure you it's not from some Machiavellian attempt to monopolize the printer market. There are many knotty technical issues in writing print drivers (you're quite right to call it a black art), and we'd like to resolve some of them before there are fifty print drivers on the market and our hands are tied. We are interested in and are actively working on this problem. Suffice it to say that the internals of the printing architecture are not up to the standards we require in order to support external developers. David Goldsmith Apple Computer, Inc. AppleLink: GOLDSMITH1 BIX: dgoldsmith 20525 Mariani Avenue, MS: 46B UUCP: {nsc,dual,sun,voder,ucbvax!mtxinu}!apple!dgold Cupertino, CA 95014 CSNET: dgold@apple.com
earleh@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Earle R. Horton) (08/31/88)
In article <16341@apple.Apple.COM> dgold@apple.com.UUCP (David Goldsmith) writes: >... >There are >many knotty technical issues in writing print drivers (you're quite right >to call it a black art), and we'd like to resolve some of them before >there are fifty print drivers on the market and our hands are tied... > >Suffice it to say that the internals of the printing architecture are not >up to the standards we require in order to support external developers. > I find this to be highly commendable in the abstract. However, the Macintosh is by this time considered by many to be a "mature product" line of computers. This implies to me that a well defined interface to printing is long overdue. Just about everyone who has a Mac has a printer or the need for one. Look at the most popular types of programs which are sold for personal computers: Word Processors, Spreadsheets, Accounting Packages, things to balance your checkbook. Printing is important!!! I find it outlandish in the extreme to hear from the manufacturer of a mature product in the personal computer industry that "The exact method of implementing printing on our machines is undocumented." I find it equally amazing that many, many businesses and high volume printing users have consulted me regarding the use of my example printer driver, Daisy, to drive their machines. The feedback I receive later indicates that many of them actually do use it in high volume, high speed applications. There is something wrong here when commercial users have to rely on an example program from MacTutor Magazine for a vital function like printing. Nothing wrong with MacTutor, I just don't in general consider it to be a source for high performance business software. We're getting awfully close to "fifty print drivers" even as you read this. There may not be time to resolve some of the issues before this happens. Apple should either document what they have now, and reserve the right to implement "Version 2 Printing" later, or they should get on the stick and fix the printing code real soon. The present level of uncertainty in this area is not real helpful to users, peripheral manufacturers, developers, or anybody, I think. Earle R. Horton. 23 Fletcher Circle, Hanover, NH 03755 (603) 643-4109 Email address expires soon, but try my wife: maxine@eleazar.dartmouth.edu.
wetter@tybalt.caltech.edu (Pierce T. Wetter) (09/02/88)
>I think you missed the signature on the original complaint: a gentleman from >Calcomp, who make LOTS of classy output devices. He recognizes that if he >is going to sell his peripherals to Mac owners, he is going to have to >supply Mac drivers for his peripherals. He wants to provide and is trying >to provide that support, and he is not getting any assistance from the >printer people at Apple. > One of my friends was offered $50,000 a year to work at CalComp and write printer drivers for the Mac. He didn't take the job, hence there aren't any printer drivers for CalComp stuff. Maybe if someone else would like to rectify this situation by going to work for CalComp, everyone would be happy. Pierce ---------------------------------------------------------------- wetter@tybalt.caltech.edu pwetter@caltech.bitnet pwetter@caltech.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------- Weird theory #47: Islamic women can do kinky things with their ankles, that's why the Koran says they aren't supposed to reveal them in public.
victoro@crash.cts.com (Victor O'Rear) (09/05/88)
In article <7767@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> wetter@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (Pierce T. Wetter) writes: >>I think you missed the signature on the original complaint: a gentleman from >>Calcomp, who make LOTS of classy output devices. He recognizes that if he >>is going to sell his peripherals to Mac owners, he is going to have to >>supply Mac drivers for his peripherals. He wants to provide and is trying >>to provide that support, and he is not getting any assistance from the >>printer people at Apple. >> > One of my friends was offered $50,000 a year to work at CalComp and write >printer drivers for the Mac. He didn't take the job, hence there aren't any >printer drivers for CalComp stuff. Maybe if someone else would like to rectify >this situation by going to work for CalComp, everyone would be happy. >Pierce > I discovered, on my book shelf - long forgotten, a 1988 software catalog that included some printer drivers. Softstyle is a company we've heard of before, and many use their EpStart epson drivers, but I did not know the other drivers that they make. For your information: PlotStart w/ Cable $93.00 Discount HP Colorpro, the 7475a and 7550A BlueStart $33.00 Discount IBM's Proprinter, Quietwriter, Wheelwriter or Color Ink Jet JetStart V2.5 $33.00 Discount HP Thinkjet and Quietjet printers LazerStart V2.5 $71.00 Discount HP LaserJet or LaserJet Plus T.I. Start V2.5 $56.00 Discount All the TI Printers :-| ToshStart V2.5 $33.00 Discount All the Toshiba printers. Looks like a good start. -- =============================================================================== ! Victor O'Rear {hplabs!hp-sdd, akgua, sdcsvax, nosc.mil}!crash!victoro | | ARPA: crash!victoro@nosc.ARPA and home: (619) 588-7423 (Sand Eigo, Ca) | | | | "Fools, Idiots! Don't they realize that they are dealing with forces | | beyond comprehension!" - "Doctor Science" | ===============================================================================
twakeman@hpcea.CE.HP.COM (Teriann Wakeman) (09/07/88)
Why in the world would anyone find it difficult to produce transparancies on
a Mac?????
The LaserWriter does an exellent job of producing transparancies.
HINT #329 Never create a transparancy for a presentation that relies
upon colour to be understood. People will want handouts. These
end up being in black & white. The silde may be in colour,
feel you need the added pazaz {be careful with red & green,
this is the most comon form of colour blindness}, but should
NEVER rely upon colour.
If you feel a need for colour transparancies, you can always use a plotter
with MacPlotts or MacPlottsII. These drive HP and other plotters.
The tools are there.
TeriAnn