leonardr@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (04/21/88)
jellinghaus-robe@CS.YALE.EDU writes in comp.sys.mac >>And while other operating systems struggle to come out with a french or >>a german version, the Mac has always had that, and is now multi-lingual: >>Japanese, Arabic, Turkish, and Icelandic, each with its own date formats, >>and sorting rules, all in the machine, (all even in a single document) >>at once. (click in the Japanese part of the line, and the keyboard remaps >>to kanji. click in the arabic part and text inserts from right to left, and >>letters change their shape automatically depending on whether they are at >>the beginning, middle or end of the word.) > >Yow! Show me a real Mac program that can do this. I sure >haven't seen one yet. And what about the menu bar? Does it >change, too, depending on what part of the line you're in? > >Agreed, all this is *possible* with the Mac OS, but I have >yet to see any application with *all* the necessary resources >in *all* the above-mentioned languages. Most applications >will exist in one version for each language; writing one that >can deal with multiple scripts at once would be *really* hard. >I know I haven't seen or heard of anything like what you >describe. > You're missing the WHOLE POINT of the Script Manager and Internationalization What you want (and are able to achieve using the Script Manager properly (which mind you very few program do, but I'll get to that later!)) is a program that CAN operate in whatever script is current, be it Roman (normal), Hebrew, Arabic Japanese, or any of the the other ~30 scripts that Apple has defined. That is the wonderful thing (amazing too, mind you, and my hat goes off to Mark Davis and the International Development Group for it!) about the Script Manager - one set of routines allows you code to work with ANY of the foreign Interfaces, rather than having MANY different pieces of code for each possible option. What you are asking for is that ALL resources also change when the script changes...That's an interesting concept, (implementable if you REALLY wanted too) but not really practical. If the person using the foreign Interface System wants all of his dialogs/menus, etc in the language of his choice, then he can either purchase a localized version or do it himself, but most (to my knowledge) of the people using the Script Interfaces use them only part time to include foreign language text in their English documents, and may not (do not?) want all their resources in the foreign language (let along changing scripts everytime they do!!!) You are right in one thing that you mention, and that is that there are VERY few products currently available that support (REALLY SUPPORT!!) the script Manager and the foreign scripts. There are two word processors that are being sold as Script Manager Word Processors (as they were designed with this in mind) but they are very basic in function (like a MacWrite level) and are therefore of limited use for many things (such as papers requiring footnotes for example). And what about Draw Packages, Desktop Presentations, Desktop Publishing?? Actually Letraset and Aldus are working on (Letraset has them available now) international versions of thier products (ReadySetGo4 and PageMaker respectively ) and they are supposed to be compatable..... Well, I've ranted enough...I'll turn off my International Flame Thrower now and get on with my work..... +---------------------------------+-----------------------------------+ + + Any thing I say may be taken as + + Leonard Rosenthol + fact, then again you might decide+ + President, LazerWare, inc. + that it really isn't, so you + + + never know, do you?? + + leonardr@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu + + + GEnie: MACgician + + + Delphi: MACgician + + + + + +---------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
twakeman@hpcea.CE.HP.COM (Teriann Wakeman) (04/22/88)
David, Daivd, PLEASE watch what you say in your postings. I enjoy reading your postings, but please be careful about mentioning the AMIGA word. This newsgroup is haunted by seemingly masses of Amigaphyles looking for the slightist excuse to tell everyone in the Mac newsgroup how bad the Mac is & how great the Amiga is. I have never truely understood why these people read an extreamly active newsgroup about a computer that they think is inferior to thiers. If you refrain from using the AMIGA word, maybe, just maybe these Amigaphiles haunting the Mac newsgroup will refrain from subjecting those of us interested in the Macintosh with screens of my computer is better then your computer dribble (but why do they spend the time to read about an 'inferior' computer????). TeriAnn
kevin@Lindy.STANFORD.EDU (Kevin J. Burnett) (04/23/88)
In article <430026@hpcea.CE.HP.COM> twakeman@hpcea.CE.HP.COM (Teriann Wakeman) writes:
->David, Daivd, PLEASE watch what you say in your postings. I enjoy reading
->your postings, but please be careful about mentioning the AMIGA word. This
->newsgroup is haunted by seemingly masses of Amigaphyles looking for the
->slightist excuse to tell everyone in the Mac newsgroup how bad the Mac is &
->how great the Amiga is. I have never truely understood why these people
->read an extreamly active newsgroup about a computer that they think is
->inferior to thiers. If you refrain from using the AMIGA word, maybe, just
->maybe these Amigaphiles haunting the Mac newsgroup will refrain from
->subjecting those of us interested in the Macintosh with screens of my
->computer is better then your computer dribble (but why do they spend the
->time to read about an 'inferior' computer????).
->
->TeriAnn
I wish I knew why these Amigoids do it as well.. the same thing happens
on comp.sys.atari.st as well, but it seems to happen even more, and get
nastier. I guess they just need some way to rationalise their strange
purchase decision :-) :-) :-).
Computers seem to create more fanatical brand-name loyalty than just about
any other product that I can think of, and seems to make many people
defend their brand at all costs.
--
Kevin Burnett
Stanford Linear Accelerator Centre / Santa Clara Class of '88
Arpa: kevin@Lindy.Stanford.EDU Bitnet: KJBSF@SLACVM.BITNET
Old-style UUCP: ...!decwrl!labrea!Lindy!kevindillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (04/23/88)
>Can you hook up a full-page monitor and get up to 1200x800 resolution? >Can you hook up two of them and get 2400x800 resolution? The point >that was made is that you can have MULTIPLE MONITORS, or differently >sized monitors, all seamessly running as one desktop. And the Amiga >CAN NOT do that. Sorry ruin your fun, but on the first point you can. >As I said above, this is just plain WRONG. You can get full-page >displays for the Mac SE and Plus that work just as the Mac II's >monitors do--multiple (possibly large) monitors forming *one* desktop >area. Under the Amiga OS V1.2, it is difficult to support multiple video cards as one contiguous workbench. In fact, the Mac is the only workstation I know of that can. My opinion of the ability rates a "cute, but not as useful as one might think". >>I can go to any Amiga, even one built in 1985, and know that I can count >>on 704 x 470 resolution, and all 4096 colors. I think this is a >>better alternative to "multiple display cards," no? As far the current 704 x 470 display capability of the Amiga, the price for said display is the loss of two or three of the 8 available sprites, and interlace. HOWEVER, there are now several de-interlacing devices available on the market which will give you a NON-INTERLACE 704 x 470 (x 4) display with a standard Amiga. >No. For limited money, yes. But *all* software for the Mac will run >on *any* display setup (unless it's a color paint program which has no >reason to run in monochrome). And there are some display cards out >which have 24-bit color--16,277,216 colors times 1000*800 resolution. >No WAY your Amiga will match that, no matter HOW much you spend. If you care to spend that much $$... Also, if you've ever *seen* a 24 bit display on the Mac, you'll notice that there is a hefty price for the resolution... your Mac II slows down by a huge factor (for display IO). As far as the Amiga goes, considering that 1Kx1K monocrome monitors have already been demo'd working on an Amiga, I figure it won't be long. In fact, the Amiga has a slight advantage here in that it has coprocessor graphics support... i.e. it still screams even with the large monitors. >Of course, most of us are on limited budgets, and the Amiga is a hell >of a lot of power for the money, but in terms of absolute power, the >Mac has the Amiga beat. I would disagree. If you are talking about processor power, any Amiga and almost any Mac can be configured with 25Mhz 68020's. There are even 68030 cards available for the Amiga (and I assume for the Mac). I could say a lot more, but have no desire to see this flare up into a 'my computer is better than your computer' war. The magic word here is "MONEY"... if you've got the money, you can buy a product or products that do wonders with either machine. -Matt
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (04/23/88)
:David, Daivd, PLEASE watch what you say in your postings. I enjoy reading :your postings, but please be careful about mentioning the AMIGA word. This :newsgroup is haunted by seemingly masses of Amigaphyles looking for the :slightist excuse to tell everyone in the Mac newsgroup how bad the Mac is & :how great the Amiga is. I have never truely understood why these people :read an extreamly active newsgroup about a computer that they think is Several reasons: (1) Just because I own an Amiga doesn't mean I'm not interested in the Mac. (2) In the early days of the Amiga, many people on both comp.sys.atari.st and comp.sys.mac blatently spewed out incredible lies (mainly from comp.sys.atari.st) about the Amiga and many Amigans were forced to monitor said groups to correct said lies. I read comp.sys.atari.st for (#2). I read comp.sys.mac for both (#1) and (#2). I have found that there are many people on both groups (comp.sys.mac, comp.sys.amiga ... forget comp.sys.atari.st) that have many misconceptions about the "other" machine. Just as I tell you all not to consider the Amiga a toy (because it isn't), I equally tell Amigans not to think of the Mac as an overhyped junk box. -Matt
gillies@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu (04/24/88)
The multiple monitors trick is nice, but it's really just a trick. Apple didn't pioneer it -- it's been running on Xerox Dorado computers for at least three years. However, I wonder if everyone does it as cleanly as apple does. Maybe they know more about it in comp.sys.workstations....
tim@ism780c.UUCP (T.W."Tim" Smith, Knowledgian) (04/26/88)
< The company name is correct. I did some work on an early version
< of this as a consultant. My advice is don't hold your breath and
< expect to be disappointed.
...
< Jerry Whitnell Been through Hell?
< Communication Solutions, Inc. What did you bring back for me?
< - A. Brilliant
Remind me never to hire you if I am looking for a consultant. I would
be very annoyed if I was developing a product and my former consultants
were telling the world how bad it was.
--
Tim Smith tim@ism780c.isc.com
"I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the
kind of person I'm preaching to" -- J.R. "Bob" Dobbstwakeman@hpcea.CE.HP.COM (Teriann Wakeman) (04/26/88)
Interesting rationalizations. Thank you, I appriciate the input of why Amiga users read comp.sys.mac. I can see how it would be interesting to read about new developments with other computer systems. unfortunatly,my time is limited and it is all I can do to keep up on all the new things going on with the Mac.If there wasn't all this new & interesting software & hardware continually coming out on the Mac, I too might have time to read news groups about other computers. Still, I wish that those of you who =amiga users/fans and not Macusers/fans would take a hint from those reading Comp.sys.mac from the Atari camp. I haven't heard any my computer-is-better-than-yours dribble out of them for a long time. Also, hopefully, those of us who use Macs will refrain from doing putdowns on other brands of computers.It might help if we only discussed one computer per newsgroup. Happy newsgroup reading, TeriAnn
landman%hanami@Sun.COM (Howard A. Landman) (09/28/88)
[This was buried in my dead.article file due to a system error some time ago. I thought it might still be of interest. HAL] In article <76000192@uiucdcsp> gillies@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >The multiple monitors trick is nice, but it's really just a trick. >Apple didn't pioneer it -- it's been running on Xerox Dorado computers >for at least three years. Make that "at least seven years". I worked on such a system in 1980 or 1981. Maureen Stone had a wonderful color "MacDraw-like" program, and it was hard to tell whether you had your colors right on a B&W display. Of course, you could always print it out on your color "LaserWriter", but that took a while, and cost the company $1 per page. Anyway, one machine I worked on had a large color screen AND a normal Alto-style full-page B&W display to its left. The cursor moved freely between the two screens. I think this was one of the first 2 or 3 Dorados in existence. Maureen's program (Griffin) had some nice features due its being experimental, like being able to select the spline method for curve-fitting on a curve-by-curve basis. Cubic, Catmull-ROM, Bezier, and more, on a nice little menu. Apple didn't invent menus either ... In September 1980, I printed out a Griffin drawing and had it come out VERY bizarre. Polygon points were translated all over the page, leading to a jagged abstract effect. It turned out that there was a slightly bad chip in the color printer; when they replaced it a few days later, everything went back to normal. I thus have a unique art work, partially designed by myself and partially mutilated by a bit of errant circuitry, which I probably could never duplicate. Howard A. Landman landman@hanami.sun.com UUCP: sun!hanami!landman
tow@arisia.Xerox.COM (Rob Tow) (09/30/88)
In article <70528@sun.uucp> landman@sun.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) writes: >[This was buried in my dead.article file due to a system error some > time ago. I thought it might still be of interest. HAL] > >In article <76000192@uiucdcsp> gillies@uiucdcsp.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >>The multiple monitors trick is nice, but it's really just a trick. >>Apple didn't pioneer it -- it's been running on Xerox Dorado computers >>for at least three years. > >Make that "at least seven years". I worked on such a system in 1980 or >1981. Maureen Stone had a wonderful color "MacDraw-like" program, and >it was hard to tell whether you had your colors right on a B&W display. >Of course, you could always print it out on your color "LaserWriter", >but that took a while, and cost the company $1 per page. Anyway, one >machine I worked on had a large color screen AND a normal Alto-style >full-page B&W display to its left. The cursor moved freely between the >two screens. I think this was one of the first 2 or 3 Dorados in existence. > >Maureen's program (Griffin) had some nice features due its being experimental, >like being able to select the spline method for curve-fitting on a >curve-by-curve basis. Cubic, Catmull-ROM, Bezier, and more, on a nice >little menu. Apple didn't invent menus either ... > >In September 1980, I printed out a Griffin drawing and had it come out >VERY bizarre. Polygon points were translated all over the page, leading >to a jagged abstract effect. It turned out that there was a slightly >bad chip in the color printer; when they replaced it a few days later, >everything went back to normal. I thus have a unique art work, partially >designed by myself and partially mutilated by a bit of errant circuitry, >which I probably could never duplicate. > > Howard A. Landman > landman@hanami.sun.com > UUCP: sun!hanami!landman When I read the above, I thought Maureen should see it - now she's famous! - so I walked down the hall and showed it to her. She laughed, and then composed the following and and mailed it to my machine so I could post it here... 28-Sep-88 stone.pa Re: From the USENET Date: 28 Sep 88 17:59:40 PDT From: stone.pa Subject: Re: From the USENET In-reply-to: "Your message of 28 Sep 88 10:28:22 PDT" To: tow cc: stone RE: sliding cursors and Griffin. Sliding the cursor between displays was implemented for the Xerox PARC/CSL Cedar system in 1982. Any application using the color display got the sliding cursor. The original idea, however, came from Phil Petit's program for chip design called "Chipmonk," developed at Xerox PARC/CSL in the early 80's. Griffin was designed in 1978 and implemented over the next several years. It originally ran on the Alto computer but was soon ported to the Dorado. Howard may well have seen it running on the first Dorado with a color display. And, while we're discussing illustrator history, the original Xerox PARC synthetic (as opposed to bitmap) illustration editor was developed by Patrick Baudelaire in 1974. Called "Draw" it ran on the Alto and supported lines, text and spline curves of different types (no filled areas). It had icon-style menus and supported color in a limited fashion. The paper "Techniques for Interactive Graphics" by Baudelaire and Stone includes several pictures designed with Griffin and Draw. While it doesn't explicitly mention either illustrator, it describes some of the techniques used in both of them. The article can be found in ACM Computer Graphics, Vol 14, No. 3, July 1980, p 314 which is the Siggraph '80 conference proceedings. Maureen Stone --- Rob Tow Member Research Staff Electronic Document Lab Xerox PARC 3333 Coyote Hill Drive Palo Alto, CA 94304 (415)-494-4087