pgil@sphinx.uchicago.edu (paul gilna) (09/16/88)
We just took delivery of a 4 Meg Mac II with colour monitor.
The monitor is the Apple/Sony 13in Trinitron standard model.
It is showing a thin grey horizontal line about 3/4 down the screen.
Our Sales people said we would have to live with it, Apple won't
take it back.
I know I have seen stuff on the net before about this: does anyone
have the complete picture?
Thanks, paul
--
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Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.mha@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Mark H. Anbinder) (09/16/88)
In article <4559@sphinx.uchicago.edu> pgil@sphinx.uchicago.edu writes: >We just took delivery of a 4 Meg Mac II with colour monitor. >The monitor is the Apple/Sony 13in Trinitron standard model. >It is showing a thin grey horizontal line about 3/4 down the screen. >Our Sales people said we would have to live with it, Apple won't >take it back. The sales people are right; you have to live with it. The line is, more or less, a shadow cast by a very, very thin wire running behind the screen. Basically, there's no way to get the resolution of the Trinitron in colo(u)r without that stabilizing wire in there. Exactly what it's for I couldn't tell you, but I do know it's visible, to a lesser or greater extent in some cases, in many other very-high-resolution RGB monitors. And, in case you were wondering, yes, every Apple high resolution RGB monitor has that line. -- Mark H. Anbinder ** MHA@TCGould.tn.cornell.edu NG33 MVR Hall, Media Services Dept. ** THCY@CRNLVAX5.BITNET Cornell University H: (607) 257-7587 ******** Ithaca, NY 14853 W: (607) 255-1566 ******* Ego ipse custodies custudio
jurjen@cwi.nl (Jurjen N.E. Bos) (09/16/88)
In article <4559@sphinx.uchicago.edu> pgil@sphinx.uchicago.edu (paul gilna) writes: >It is showing a thin grey horizontal line about 3/4 down the screen. There it is again! YES, Sony does really make screens that have a horizontal line through them. They even sell screens that have TWO lines! And then they call it "high quality"... So, I'm sorry for you, live with it, or buy a real monitor :-). -- -- Jurjen N.E. Bos (jurjen@cwi.nl)
swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) (09/17/88)
When I got my Mac II home and fired it up I noticed that line and thought "we'll just call the dealer and get another one." Wrong. The word was "they all look like that, get used to it." I found this to be maddening. What I want to know is is it possible to build a monitor of the same (otherwise) quality without the line. If it is, then why didn't Apple have a fit with Sony just the way we did with Apple? I think it would have been nice of Apple to demand quality components from their supplier instead of just passing it along to the consumer and saying "we get it that way so you get it that way." -- Scott Wilson arpa: swilson@sun.com Sun Microsystems uucp: ...!sun!swilson Mt. View, CA "And the fool loves war, and the gentle die." -The Call
julian@riacs.edu (Julian E Gomez) (09/19/88)
In article <68764@sun.uucp> swilson@sun.UUCP (Scott Wilson) writes:
" ...
" What I want to know is is it possible to build a monitor of the same
" (otherwise) quality without the line. If it is, then why didn't Apple
" have a fit with Sony just the way we did with Apple? I think it would
" ...
a) Yes, it is possible. Conrac, Barco, and others have been doing it
for decades.
b) Probably because they were cheaper than Conrac and Barco, and
sometimes you get what you pay for.
--
"Have you ever wondered if taxation without representation was cheaper?"
Julian "Dr. Wombat" Gomez
julian@riacs.edu || {...decvax!}ames!riacs!julianrfortier@palladium.UUCP (Richard W. Fortier) (09/19/88)
In article <68764@sun.uucp> you write: >When I got my Mac II home and fired it up I noticed that line and thought >"we'll just call the dealer and get another one." Wrong. The word was >"they all look like that, get used to it." ... > ... If it is, then why didn't Apple >have a fit with Sony just the way we did with Apple? All my rumors indicate Apple DID have a fit with Sony; why do you think it took so long to bring the Apple color monitor to market? The Sony Trinitron monitors are generally acknowledged to be the sharpest available. If the price for this crispness is a hardly noticeable shadow from a stabilizing wire, I may not like it but I'd rather have the shadow than eystrain from fuzzy text. Personally, I don't think the shadow makes a bit of difference; I never notice it unless I'm looking for it, and I find this is true of most others also. But since it does seem to bother a few people, how about a more constructive conversation than just flaming Apple/Sony; does anyone know of a monitor as crisp as the Apple/Sony monitor which DOESN'T have any shadows? Rich -- --- Richard W. Fortier, Epoch Systems Inc. (617) 481-3717 313 Boston Post Rd. West, Marlboro MA 01752 {linus!alliant, harvard!cfisun}!palladium!rfortier
bcase@cup.portal.com (09/20/88)
> What I want to know is is it possible to build a monitor of the same > (otherwise) quality without the line. If it is, then why didn't Apple > have a fit with Sony just the way we did with Apple? I think it would > ... >a) Yes, it is possible. Conrac, Barco, and others have been doing it > for decades. >b) Probably because they were cheaper than Conrac and Barco, and > sometimes you get what you pay for. Oh please! I can't believe this! 1) ALL SONY TRINITRON CRTs HAVE "THE LINE." LARGER ONES HAVE TWO LINES! Yes, even the commercial, NTSC trinitron TVs (you have to look close) have the lines. The line(s) is a wire needed to maintain the shape of the shadow mask, which is cylindrical instead of shperical. 2) I realize that monitor quality is subjective, but if you compare the Apple color monitor to any other, you will probably see that it is as good or better than anything else available (although I have never seen a Zenith flat tension mask monitor connected to a Mac II, it may be pretty good). Don't believe me, check with MacUser this month (or maybe it is some other Mac mag, but there is a mag with a color-monitor-comparison-and-evaluation article). Apple has some of the most stringent quality standards in the industry. I am 100% sure that if another monitor were available with the overall quality of the Sony and without "the line," Apple would have gone with it. Don't for a minute think that Apple chose the Sony monitor based soley on price!! It may come as a shock, but there are lots of buyers out there who will simply walk out the door if you start quibbling over a couple hunderd bucks. What they want is the highest possible quality, in the largest sense of the word, combined with buying, billing, delivery, and sevicing ease. That is they, want to buy high quality stuff from *Apple.* Apple has a responsibility to provide the uninitiated but demanding computer user with one-stop shopping. If you don't like what Apple provides, then you are free to go to your junk shop and buy a "lineless" monitor. That's one of the things the Mac II is all about. Quit yer bitchin'. Read the MacUser article. (I have a SuperMac 16" Trinitron system with two lines, and I *love* it!)
casseres@Apple.COM (David Casseres) (09/20/88)
In article <68764@sun.uucp> swilson@sun.UUCP (Scott Wilson) writes: >What I want to know is is it possible to build a monitor of the same >(otherwise) quality without the line. From the rest of your posting, it appears that you DO know how to solve that problem. If so, I think Sony would like to see your resume. David Casseres
swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) (09/20/88)
In article <17367@apple.Apple.COM> casseres@apple.com.UUCP (David Casseres) writes: >In article <68764@sun.uucp> swilson@sun.UUCP (Scott Wilson) writes: > >>What I want to know is is it possible to build a monitor of the same >>(otherwise) quality without the line. > >From the rest of your posting, it appears that you DO know how to solve >that problem. If so, I think Sony would like to see your resume. What on earth are you talking about? -- Scott Wilson arpa: swilson@sun.com Sun Microsystems uucp: ...!sun!swilson Mt. View, CA
Fabian@cup.portal.com (09/20/88)
Paul, They're right, Apple won't take it back. Why? Because it really is a feature of the Trinitron tubes. The line that you show is the shadow of a wire that supports a mask. 13" and 16" Trinitrons have one and the 19" Trinitrons have two. Fabian Ramirez SuperMac Technology, Inc. fabian@cup.portal.com sun!cup.portal.com!fabian
clive@drutx.ATT.COM (Clive Steward) (09/20/88)
From article <908@hydra.riacs.edu>, by julian@riacs.edu (Julian E Gomez): > In article <68764@sun.uucp> swilson@sun.UUCP (Scott Wilson) writes: > " ... > " What I want to know is is it possible to build a monitor of the same > " (otherwise) quality without the line. If it is, then why didn't Apple > " have a fit with Sony just the way we did with Apple? I think it would > " ... > > a) Yes, it is possible. Conrac, Barco, and others have been doing it > for decades. Julian, do you have substantiation for this? That the monitors are as good as the Apple (or for that matter Sony w/o Apple) ones which use the tube with the support structure which gives the line? I think at very least, your word 'decades' clues that you are not talking about the resolution quality level of modern screens. Further, if memory serves, 2 months ago MacUser or MacWorld did a very complete study of color monitors. Conclusions remembered: Apple w/line is indeed the best possible, Sony w/line is also very good, Conrac lower. Am I wrong? Clive Steward
bcase@cup.portal.com (09/21/88)
>13" and 16" Trinitrons have one and the 19" Trinitrons have two.
No, 16" Trinitrons have *two* lines (mask support wires). At least mine
does.
And by the way, I totally disagree with the MacUser Review of the SuperMac
16" Trinitron: None of the drawbacks they cite, except the moire' and
slight pincushioning, are evident on my unit! I think they must have gotten
a lemon or something.han@Apple.COM (Byron Han, Architect) (09/21/88)
as an interesting note, in real trinitrons the line is 1/3 of the way _down_
from the _top_ of the screen. apple had sony invert things to move it out
of the prime viewing area (at least the prime viewing area according to
the human interface group at apple)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Apple Computer, Inc. -------------------------------------
20525 Mariani Ave, MS27Y domain: han@apple.COM
Cupertino, CA 95014 UUCP:{sun,voder,nsc,decwrl}!apple!han
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ATTnet: 408-973-6450 Applelink: HAN1 CompuServe: 72167,1664
------------------------------------------------------------------------------swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) (09/21/88)
>The Sony Trinitron monitors are generally acknowledged to be the >sharpest available. If the price for this crispness is a hardly >noticeable shadow from a stabilizing wire, I may not like it but I'd >rather have the shadow than eystrain from fuzzy text. I definitely agree. What I find discouraging is that no one at the dealer or at Apple (yes, we called them) ever put it in terms of a tradeoff. What we heard was "sorry it's just that way." What I think would have been the better response to customers is something like: "in order to to get the best picture quality we (Apple) have chosen to use Sony Trinitron monitors. Inherent in the Trinitron design is the use of a stabilizing wire which casts a slightly noticeable shadow. We felt that the improved picture quality outweighed the negative aspects of the wire shadow." Now that would have made me a happier customer and would have saved all of you from hearing me bitch. -- Scott Wilson arpa: swilson@sun.com Sun Microsystems uucp: ...!sun!swilson Mt. View, CA
rampil@cca.ucsf.edu (Ira Rampil) (09/22/88)
In article <9281@cup.portal.com> Fabian@cup.portal.com writes: > >13" and 16" Trinitrons have one(line) and the 19" Trinitrons have two. > >Fabian Ramirez >SuperMac Technology, Inc. Sorry Fabian, My Supermac 16" Sony monitor has two lines. . . and frankly, I don't give a damn. I do very graphics intensive work and the monitor is simply razor sharp with beautifully saturated color renderings. I know the lines are there, but I don't see them unless I look for them. Ira Rampil Disclaimer: I speak for myself until I can afford to hire someone to do it for me.
kmw@ardent.UUCP (Ken Wallich) (09/22/88)
In article <17467@apple.Apple.COM> han@apple.com.UUCP (Byron Han, Architect) writes: >as an interesting note, in real trinitrons the line is 1/3 of the way _down_ >from the _top_ of the screen. apple had sony invert things to move it out >of the prime viewing area (at least the prime viewing area according to >the human interface group at apple) Oh, so that is why my Sony 1302 Multiscan, manufactured in June of 1987 and tuned for an IBM PC type machine has it 2/3 of the way DOWN the screen. Of course, the 13" color HP monitor I use to use (that also had a Sony tube in it) had the line in the same place, and *that* was manufactured in 1985. I guess they figured those HI guys at Apple were so bright, that they should change the production of ALL the monitors they produced, even before Apple asked for the change (I know, they use the Cray for time travel :-). Good grief. -- Ken Wallich Ardent Computer Corp {uunet, ubvax, decwrl, hplabs}!ardent!kmw Sunnyvale, California, USA "if we weren't all crazy, we'd all go INSANE"
jimc@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Cathey) (09/23/88)
In article <602@ardent.UUCP> kmw@ardent.UUCP (Ken Wallich) writes: ]In article <17467@apple.Apple.COM> han@apple.com.UUCP (Byron Han, Architect) writes: ]]as an interesting note, in real trinitrons the line is 1/3 of the way _down_ ]]from the _top_ of the screen. apple had sony invert things to move it out ]]of the prime viewing area (at least the prime viewing area according to ]]the human interface group at apple) ]Oh, so that is why my Sony 1302 Multiscan, manufactured in June of 1987 and ]tuned for an IBM PC type machine has it 2/3 of the way DOWN the screen. ]Of course, the 13" color HP monitor I use to use (that also had a Sony tube ]in it) had the line in the same place, and *that* was manufactured in 1985. ]I guess they figured those HI guys at Apple were so bright, that they should ]change the production of ALL the monitors they produced, even before Apple ]asked for the change (I know, they use the Cray for time travel :-). All you have to do is put the picture tube in the box upside down and swap the yoke connections! No big deal. Whether or not Apple _thought_ of the idea originally (which I highly doubt -- Sony surely gets that award) they were the ones who required of Sony to do such a thing, which translates to "had" in my book. +----------------+ ! II CCCCCC ! Jim Cathey ! II SSSSCC ! ISC Systems Corp. ! II CC ! TAF-C8; Spokane, WA 99220 ! IISSSS CC ! UUCP: uunet!iscuva!jimc ! II CCCCCC ! (509) 927-5757 +----------------+ "With excitement like this, who is needing enemas?"
ns@cat.cmu.edu (Nicholas Spies) (09/30/88)
I've been looking at Sony monitors for years (video, computer) and always wondered what that thin line was. An article in MacUser claims it is a wire to reenforce the tensed vertical wires that constitute the shadow mask on a Trinitron. So much for perfection... -- Nicholas Spies ns@cat.cmu.edu.arpa Center for Design of Educational Computing Carnegie Mellon University