hallett@hamlet.steinmetz (Jeff A. Hallett) (02/01/88)
There has been some discussion lately about keyboards. I have a
question that may turn into a debate, but I'm wondering which is
better, the Apple Extended keyboard or the DataDesk Mac 101 keyboard?
Now, by "better" I'm really asking someone who has tried them both to
guage the feel of the keyboard. I'm looking for ease of hand
posturing, tactile feedback on a press and relative ease to reach all
the keys. For example, the old Macintosh keyboard forces the hands to
be too high up for comfortable use, absolutely no tactile feedback
when a key is pressed but the keys are all relatively easy to get to.
Any feedback is appreciated.
Jeffrey A. Hallett | ARPA: hallett@ge-crd.arpa
Software Technology Program | UUCP: desdemona!hallett@steinmetz.uucp
GE Corporate Research and Development | (518) 387-5654
+--------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| Credo Quia Absurdum Est |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+avalon@UCSCB.UCSC.EDU (71018000) (02/02/88)
+-In article <9380@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP>, desdemona!hallett@steinmetz.UUCP (Jeffrey A. Hallett) wrote:- +---------- | | There has been some discussion lately about keyboards. I have a | question that may turn into a debate, but I'm wondering which is | better, the Apple Extended keyboard or the DataDesk Mac 101 keyboard? | Now, by "better" I'm really asking someone who has tried them both to | guage the feel of the keyboard. I'm looking for ease of hand | posturing, tactile feedback on a press and relative ease to reach all | the keys. For example, the old Macintosh keyboard forces the hands to | be too high up for comfortable use, absolutely no tactile feedback | when a key is pressed but the keys are all relatively easy to get to. | | Any feedback is appreciated. | | Jeffrey A. Hallett | ARPA: hallett@ge-crd.arpa +---------- Well, at the Mac Expo I purchased the Data Desk Mac 101 Keyboard...and I am impressed. As far as I can tell, it has all of the features that the Apple Extended Keyboard has. Is less money too. The differences: The ADB ports are next to each other , centered on the back of the key board. This should not be a problem, but, because I dont have much room (typical dorm) I have my mouse in back of the keyboard with the mac to the right... this causes the cables to stick out a bit, but, it is no biggie. The keyboard is adjustable, up or down, dont know about Apple's. I assume theirs is. It has the lights for caps lock, window lock, and power on. If you have a mac II, this keyboard will work, but they have a upgrade, for the same price (at least at the show) that has a power button next to the ADB ports. This is so you can turn on and off your mac II as you would with the power key on the II. I like the feel of the keyboard, and I like the fact that Quickeyes accepts all of the the 15 function keys....nice. As well as the cut paste home end etc keys. I love the fact that vi accepts the arrow keys!!!!! I am really happy... Scott -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- avalon@ucscb.UCSC.EDU ARPA/Internet \ ...!ucbvax!ucscc!ucsck!avalon UUCP > Me! avalon@ucsck.BITNET Bitnet / "I'm just a character in someone else's dream, and one of these days they are going to wake up and forget ever dreaming me." -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
pollock@usfvax2.UUCP (Wayne Pollock) (02/04/88)
I don't care (much) about where the ports are, whether it tilts, etc. I want
to hear from anybody who know whether it is easy to type on if you have large
hands (ok, ok, fat fingers). When I switched from using my IBM Selectric 3 to
using my mac (the original keyboard), I found my typing speed was reduced by
at least a third; The keys are just too close and small!
So, does anybody know of a keyboard with a large layout and large keys for the
Mac II? Something like the Selectric 3, for instance?
Wayne Pollock (The MAD Scientist) pollock@usfvax2.usf.edu.UUCP
Usenet: ...!{ihnp4, cbatt}!codas!usfvax2!pollock
GEnie: W.POLLOCKhenry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (06/14/88)
Several pieces of private mail have challenged my assertion that the
qwerty (Sholes) keyboard was not designed to slow down the typist.
Herewith some excerpts from a 24 Feb 1982 contribution to the Editor-
People mailing list by Donald Norman -- a name that should be familiar
to anyone who knows anything about computer-human-interaction work:
"The Sholes keyboard (aka "qwerty") was designed for a
typewriter so as to minimize the jamming of typebars as
they moved to the platen. This caused the placement of
frequent pairs as far from one another as possible. In
fact, this SPEEDS typing because typing on alternate hands
is faster than on the same hand (list of references and
reprints of papers available on demand: see, for example,
Rumelhart & Norman in the next Cognitive Science). This
point wasn't appreciated at the time because nobody thought
of using all ten fingers, and typing without looking at the
keyboard was unheard of...
"There have been hundreds of studies comparing Dvorak
arrangements with Sholes arrangements. Dvorak fans claim
massive improvements in speed... However, experiments done
by neutral parties tend to put the improvement around the
5 to 10% range -- not worth the effort... you can get a far
greater improvement in typing speed by moving the RETURN key,
either to where it can be reached without distorting the hand
(say by the left thumb...) or by having automatic RETURNs...
"If you want to improve typing speed, don't tinker with the
current key layout, but do dramatic re-arrangements [e.g. chord
keyboards]."
--
"For perfect safety... sit on a fence| Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
and watch the birds." --Wilbur Wright| {ihnp4,decvax,uunet!mnetor}!utzoo!henrycosell@bbn.com (Bernie Cosell) (06/15/88)
One other consideration further blunts the Dvorak arguments: they made a _lot_ more sense in the world of mechanical typewriters. When having 'a' on your left pinky *was* a nuisance simply because most folk had trouble getting enough _smooth_ strength to type it cleanly and quickly. With electronic kbds, strength isn't an issue. __ / ) Bernie Cosell /--< _ __ __ o _ BBN Labs, Cambridge, MA 02238 /___/_(<_/ (_/) )_(_(<_ cosell@bbn.com
johng@ecrcvax.UUCP (John Gregor) (06/17/88)
In article <1988Jun13.195851.1729@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: > "If you want to improve typing speed, don't tinker with the > current key layout, but do dramatic re-arrangements [e.g. chord > keyboards]." >-- How about foot pedals? Namely shift, cntrl, ESC (for EMACS), and return. One of these days, when I find a good footswitch, I performing some surgery on my terminal. I'll let the world know what happens... Has anybody else tried this??? -- John Gregor johng%ecrcvax.UUCP@pyramid.COM All the world's indeed a stage, and we all merely players. Performers and portrayers. Each the other's audience outside the guilded cage. --RUSH
gaynor@athos.rutgers.edu (Silver) (06/18/88)
> How about foot pedals? Namely shift, cntrl, ESC (for EMACS), and > return. I've heard that footmice and other attempts at trying to get one's feet to convey spatial information failed out the wazoo. However, ask a keyboard player or a rock guitarist how much control one has over sets of footpedals... It's not the same as driving, but driving does demonstrate to non-musicians that good control is possible. Regards, [Ag] gaynor@rutgers.edu
kevin@ttidca.TTI.COM (Kevin Carothers) (06/21/88)
in article (????) johng@ecrcvax.UUCP (John Gregor): >How about foot pedals? Namely shift, cntrl, ESC (for EMACS), and return. > >One of these days, when I find a good footswitch, I performing some >surgery on my terminal. I'll let the world know what happens... > >Has anybody else tried this??? >> There *IS* (or *was* ?) a company that was producing a foot pedal "ESC" switch (they advertised in "The DEC Professional, and possibly "Hardcopy" magazines). This worked quite well (I'm told) with EDT on PDP-11's, and it was only advertised VT-100 compatible. It actually seems rather more useful to design a footswitch that would make the next character typed a "CTL" character, because this is the key that requires "goofy-handing" most often... Unfortunately, given the async-serial characteristics of most (ie; "non-IBM") type computer terminals, this is, to my understanding, a rather (as we in the computer business say) non-trivial problem. _ , __ ' ) / / ) _/_ / /-< _ , __o ____ / __. __ ____/ /_ _ __ _ / ) </_\/ <__/ / <_ (__/ (_/|_/ (_(_) (__/ /_</_/ (_/_)_ ========================================================================= The Name: Kevin Carothers !{csun,psivax,rdlvax,trwrb}!ttidca!kevin The Place: Citicorp/Transaction Technologies The Biz: Consumer & Commercial banking systems The Quote: fortune: Command not not available during prime-time - My System Administrator
jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Mr Jack Campin) (06/22/88)
In article <Jun.17.17.03.45.1988.8054@athos.rutgers.edu> gaynor@athos.rutgers.edu (Silver) writes: >> How about foot pedals? Namely shift, cntrl, ESC (for EMACS), and return. >I've heard that footmice and other attempts at trying to get one's >feet to convey spatial information failed out the wazoo. However, ask >a keyboard player or a rock guitarist how much control one has over >sets of footpedals... It's not the same as driving, but driving does >demonstrate to non-musicians that good control is possible. Feet seem to be good at two things; expressing intensity (as with an accelerator) or for discrete switching (as with guitar controls). Organists can do the latter at astonishing speed. Alkan wrote a four-voice fugue for one pair of feet that he could perform on a a piano modified with a pedalboard. How about using pressure to do menu selections or control things like font size and typestyle? Your neighbours below might start complaining when you get to 48-point bold shadow underline, though... -- ARPA: jack%cs.glasgow.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk USENET: jack@cs.glasgow.uucp JANET:jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs useBANGnet: ...mcvax!ukc!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!jack Mail: Jack Campin, Computing Science Dept., Glasgow Univ., 17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, SCOTLAND work 041 339 8855 x 6045; home 041 556 1878
ralphw@ius3.ius.cs.cmu.edu (Ralph Hyre) (06/28/88)
In article <241@pvab.UUCP> robert@pvab.UUCP (Robert Claeson) writes: >In article <Jun.5.02.10.06.1988.3586@constance.rutgers.edu>, gaynor@constance.rutgers.edu (Silver) writes: > >> It's amazing that keyboard layouts have not been standardized. > >I saw some prototype layout for some ISO or some-such standard >one or two years ago. It looked much like the IBM AT-3 or maybe >DEC VT220 keyboard. Omigod, could it be that the ESC-key-in-the-right place isn't even a standard somewhere? Better get cracking! I assumed that it would at least be some sort of ANSI standard, since DEC's VT100 sported was ANSI-compatible escape sequences. Now that its defacto-standardness is going away I'm real sad. Feel free to add to this list, so I know what equipment to avoid. I'm rating more by layout than feel: Good Bad Worse DEC VT100 TTY KSR33 VT220 Apple //e Apple ][+ Apple extended keyboard IBM PC IBM PC/AT PC/RT (and probably all PS/2's) Apple standard keyboard Mac/Mac+ New PC/AT (AT-3 type) (for Mac SE, Mac ][, and Apple //GS) Sun-3 Symbolics LISMs -- - Ralph W. Hyre, Jr. Internet: ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu Phone:(412)268-{2847,3275} CMU-{BUGS,DARK} Amateur Packet Radio: N3FGW@W2XO, or c/o W3VC, CMU Radio Club, Pittsburgh, PA
davidra@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (David A. Rabson) (06/28/88)
Ralph Hyre rates various keyboards by layout (not taking things like the VT100's unreliablity and stiffness into account). I agree with all of his classifications but one: the PC/RT (rated worse-than-bad). The keyboard as labeled is horrible, but it's so easy to remap SHIFT-LOCK to control and "`" to ESCAPE that it hardly matters. Try to do that with the VT200 series. We should do whatever we can to encourage hardware designers to implement such soft keyboards; this means no mechanical shift-lock keys, among other things. davidra@helios.tn.cornell.edu David Rabson Laboratory of Atomic and Solid State Physics Clark Hall, Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853-2501
berger@clio.UUCP (07/01/88)
I'd like to know what it is you're rating. How can anybody like
the layout of the original mac keyboard? It hardly has any keys
beyond the standard alpha/numeric set.
Mike Berger
Department of Statistics
Science, Technology, and Society
University of Illinois
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu
{ihnp4 | convex | pur-ee}!uiucuxc!clio!bergerdorner@uxg.cso.uiuc.edu (07/02/88)
>I'd like to know what it is you're rating. How can anybody like >the layout of the original mac keyboard? It hardly has any keys >beyond the standard alpha/numeric set. > > Mike Berger > But for those who wanted it, you could buy a separate numeric keypad. I thought that was a WONDERFUL way to do it. Those of us who don't do lots of number entry don't have give up desk space (and mouse space), and left-handers could have the keypad on the left side, if they wished. More isn't necessarily better. ---- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: dorner@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu UUCP: seismo!uiucuxc!dorner IfUMust: (217) 333-3339
msb@sq.uucp (Mark Brader) (07/03/88)
> We should do whatever we can to encourage hardware designers to implement > such soft keyboards; this means no mechanical shift-lock keys, among > other things. Argh, no! Give me back my VT100 where I could *tell* the state of the shift lock without having to look all over the keyboard for an LED! And don't talk to me about status lines, either. Tactile feedback, please. Of course, it should be *shift* lock, not *caps* lock as is so common today. I don't want to use the shift key for the ()'s in "a = FOO(BAR(b));"... The real point here is -- for every opinion somebody holds about keyboards, someone else holds the opposite opinion just as strongly. As such, this is a topic more fitted for talk.* than comp.*, and I suggest that it die quickly. Mark Brader, Toronto sed -e "s;??\\([-=(/)'<!>]\\);?\\\\?\\1;g" utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com will fix them... -- Karl Heuer
ola@romeo.cs.duke.edu (Owen L. Astrachan) (11/02/88)
Does anybody know of an extended keyboard with the control key to
the right of the 'A' key? (as opposed to the capslock key being there)
Thanks.
owen
Owen L. Astrachan CSNET: ola@duke
Dept.of Computer Science ARPA: ola@cs.duke.edu
Duke University UUCP: {ihnp4!decvax}!duke!ola
Durham NC 27706 Phone (919)684-5110 Ext. 229kehr@felix.UUCP (Shirley Kehr) (11/04/88)
In article <12735@duke.cs.duke.edu> ola@romeo.cs.duke.edu (Owen L. Astrachan) writes:
<
<Does anybody know of an extended keyboard with the control key to
<the right of the 'A' key? (as opposed to the capslock key being there)
<
<Thanks.
<
<owen
And then where do you want to move the 's'?
(Sorry, couldn't resist that :-) )
Shirley Kehr