rang@cpsin3.cps.msu.edu (Anton Rang) (11/11/88)
Here is what I've received on this so far. (I don't really expect
any more info, it's been a while since the last message). Many thanks
to all who responded.
I have stripped off the headers etc. to save space, and to preserve
the anonymity of the senders (if you sent something and would prefer
seeing your name in lights, tell me and I'll tell the world :-).
Anton
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I can contribute partial answers. I use TeX very often.
While I could use TeXtures or MacTeX on my mac at home, I
have no laswerwriter at home, so I send my TeX back and
forth to the suns at school.
TeX documents on the Mac saved as text can be transferred to
the suns and back with no problems. I use a simple terminal
emulator (versaterm, kermit, redryder, etc.) and use the
appropriate file transer programs. [Generally I prefer
versaterm/macput/macget]. Allegedly, the dvi files created
by TeX should be compatible as well, but I have not tried
this (since TeX runs so much faster on the suns).
For logging in to the suns, again, I use
versaterm/kermit/redryder. I generally use a modem and phone
lines from home, but we also have a mac in the lab that is
just hooked up with a null-modem cable from the mac modem
port to the sun. When I run under multifinder, I can easily
go back and forth from the mac to the suns. For mail, I
just use the mailer on the suns: the mail isn't sent to the
mac, but I can always transfer any messages I need or use
the clipboard and past into a mac file.
There is also a package called UW (unix windows) that
consists of a front end that runs on the mac and a server
that runs on the sun. It allows you to open more than one
window to the sun. Thus I can have source in one window,
makefile in another, mail in a third, etc.
In the setup I've described, the macs are not really
networked to the suns, so it may not be quite what you want,
but it works well for me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, you want to hook macs up to Unix systems:
Apple just announced MacTCP, which allows one to run TCP/IP
protocols over AppleTalk or EtherNet under the Mac OS. Available
software support includes:
NCSA Telnet
Ungermann-Bass MacTCP products suite (ftp, telnet, smtp, etc.)
This is kind of neat, although you have to either have access to the
EtherNet or have a bridge (e.g. Kinetics FastPath) between LocalTalk
(i.e. 230kb wires) and EtherNet (10mb wires.)
Additionally, Dartmouth College (my alma mater) has been running
terminal emulation & stream connections over a large AppleTalk network
for years. They have
AppleTalk drivers for Unix which they are working on
DarTerminal, a network interface program (which I worked on :-) )
which allows:
o multiple terminal sessions
o text and graphics terminal emulation
o distributed editing
o mac file archiving and KERMIT
o easy up/download of text files
The bad news is Dartmouth has its own stream protocol and archive formats,
neither of which are compatible with Apple's (though the number of
systems which use Apple's protocols and archive formats is small if
increasing.))
You might wish to find out more about available networking protocols
providing stream, etc. connectivity under AppleTalk and other networks.
Should be some nice fallout from the Apple/DEC alliance, also ; for
example, at InterOp we demonstrated MacX, an X window server running
on Mac OS over MacTCP. (We also demo'd A/UX X, but that's another
story.)
As far as text file exchange, this is kind of a trick. One reason I
like KERMIT is because it defines its own text format. This means,
if you use KERMIT's text mode, you are guaranteed to get OK text
transfer between any two systems, be them Macs, Unix Mini's, A/UX
systems, IBM EBCDIC systems or whatever.
Also, at U. of Michigan don't they have a number of things involving
connecting Macs to EtherNets. I seem to recall they have their own TCP
system, as well as ftp and (even ) NFS. So this would also be worth
looking into.
Here in A/UX-land we often have to deal with competing text formats:
Unix system V versus Mac text. Unfortunately, they are delimited
differently. It is, however, trivial to replace CR's with LF's and
vice versa on the Unix end, though Mac OS doesn't have as much in the
way of built-in text processing tools and it's more of a trick on
that end. So, here's my advice:
o Talk to U. of Michigan people
o Talk to people who have experience on Macs & know
lots about AppleTalk and its protocol suites (e.g.
AFP (AppleShare) stream protocols, MacTCP, etc., and/or
talk to Apple itself. (we should know this stuff. If you
can't reach anybody useful, send me e-mail and I'll try
to reply.)
o Talk to Dartmouth (try rich.brown@dartmouth.edu)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember: Macs can run Unix, too! I know Mac II's (or IIx's :-) ) with
A/UX are mega-expensive, but with educational discounts, they're not that
far away from your typical Unix workstation. Even 386 systems w/Xenix
aren't that cheap... and you still get the benefit of running your Mac
software (well, at least under the Mac OS, & a fair amount under A/UX) on
the same box. You can try a Sun 386i, but in my opinion that's the worst
of 3 evils: Sun, 386, and DOS :-) . So.... going with Mac II's isn't
necessarily precluding Unix. After all, A/UX offers yet another trojan
horse to deal with the "We'll only buy systems that run {Dos, Unix, Posix,
etc.} mindset. Plus it's a really decent system V and offers several nifty
features that are new to Mac OS (e.g. multitasking vs. MultiFinder) but
pretty much standard in the Unix world...
p.s. Of course SE's w/upgrade boards could use A/UX, but you need ethernet
& you don't have an extra slot! Of course you could use the serial port
(yecch)...
p.p.s. I work on A/UX, so my opinions are very objective :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You'll probably get several replies to your message, so I will
only address one specific part of it. If you have TeX running
on a Unix box, and TeXtures (mac version of TeX from Blue Sky
Research, formerly Kellerman & Smith), you most certainly CAN
make use of TeX files on both systems without changes (in general).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <951@cps3xx.UUCP> you write:
>Hi...
> I'm looking for information on gatewaying Apple Macintoshes (either
>SEs or ][s) to an Ethernet with various UNIX boxes (mostly Suns) on
>it. I'm sure people out there have had experience with this; what can
>you tell me?
I recommend the GatorBox from Cayman Systems. We just got one and
it is great. It is an Appleshare<-->NFS gateway, so that your Unix
machine running NFS can be used as a server for Appleshare.
> Specifically,
>
> 1. How easy is it to share UNIX files with Mac users? (say, text files)
VERY easy with the GatorBox. Any Unix file will show up on the Mac
desktop and can be read by any Mac program that reads text files.
>
> 2. How easy to share Mac files with UNIX users? If the Mac files
> are on a local disk? Appleshare server? UNIX host?
The GatorBox doesn't help you here. The solution is to put the Mac
files on the Unix machine via the finder.
>
> 3. Are there text formatters which have compatible formats between
> the Mac and UNIX systems? I know TeX is available for the Mac;
> can its source files be transferred with no problems?
Yes, with the GatorBox, you just put your TeXtures files on the Unix
machines and they get translated properly. So you can take the file
>from the Mac, copy it to the Unix machine, edit it under Unix, and then
edit it again from the Mac.
>
> 4. What software is there for "logging in" to a UNIX box from a
> Mac? I know it can be done w/Ethertalk cards; how about over
> an Appletalk network?
With the GatorBox, you get the public domain program NCSA telnet, which
lets you telnet from your Mac into any machine running TCP/IP. Of course,
your mac is hooked up to Appletalk. The GatorBox is hooked up to Appletalk
and the Ethernet.
>
> 5. Is there any software which provides a "friendly" interface
> to UNIX mail, on the Mac?
Cayman is working on this for the GatorBox. Soon, they will also support
printing from a Unix machine to an Appletalk laserwriter and from a Mac
to a Unix laserwriter. Mail support will be coming within the next year.
>
> Thanks for any information. Post only if the information is of
>general interest; otherwise, E-mail and I will post a summary.
I'll let you post what you want. There have been previous postings in
the past month about the GatorBox and its features. One note...The
GatorBox has only been shipping for a few months and there are some
known bugs. Cayman seems to be pretty good about solving different
problems and providing telephone support. Some people have suggested
to wait until the bugs are out, but for us, having the box now is
worth the minor bug problems.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here at the computer center at UC Berkeley, we've been using Kinetic's
FastPath boxes as gateways from AppleTalk networks to ethernet. We happen
to use PhoneNet from Farralon on the Mac side, but any AppleTalk hardware
should work. On the FathPath, we use the Kinetic's Internet Protocol
code (KIP) and on the unix side we use the Columbia AppleTalk Package (CAP).
Both are public domain and available from sumex-aim.stanford.edu via
anonymous ftp (cd <info-mac>).
> Specifically,
>
> 1. How easy is it to share UNIX files with Mac users? (say, text files)
Using AUFS (AppleShare Unix File Server, part of CAP), text file on Unix
appear as TEXT documents (creator UNIX) on the Mac side. You can manipulate
them as you would any TEXT file. (The most exciting moment when you first
get it working is to mount a Unix volume, and then start editing your
.login from you Mac!) AUFS automatically handles the conversion of Mac
line terminators (Return) to Unix line terminators (Line Feed).
> 2. How easy to share Mac files with UNIX users? If the Mac files
> are on a local disk? Appleshare server? UNIX host?
It only makes sense to share text files in this case. While many TEXT file
formats on the Mac side do have a resource fork as well as a data fork, the
AUFS implementation uses two separate files for the forks. Thus, a Unix
user could access the data fork side easily.
> 3. Are there text formatters which have compatible formats between
> the Mac and UNIX systems? I know TeX is available for the Mac;
> can its source files be transferred with no problems?
My understanding is that TeX is compatible, though the Mac versions allow
graphics that is probably incompatible with the Unix version. I've heard
there is a version of troff for the Mac, but I don't know anything about it.
> 4. What software is there for "logging in" to a UNIX box from a
> Mac? I know it can be done w/Ethertalk cards; how about over
> an Appletalk network?
We use NCSA (National Center for Supercomputing Applications) Telnet. It
works quite well for logging into and also has a built-in ftp capability.
This ftp will automatically convert Mac line terminators (Return) to Unix
line terminators (Line Feed) and vice versa.
> 5. Is there any software which provides a "friendly" interface
> to UNIX mail, on the Mac?
This is what we are currently researching. We'll be looking at QuickMail
from CE Software, combined with a product from Star Nine that allows a
Unix machine running the CAP stuff to be the postoffice. There is also
a public domain mail system that hasn't been released yet from Stanford.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last August at the MacWorld Expo in Boston I saw a demo of a product
that you might be interested in. Please understand that I have NO
experience with this product. I'm going to include some information
>from the brochure which they distributed, and if you're interested,
there's an address at the end where you can write for more information.
"MacNIX/net gives Macintosh computers running the Macintosh OS a
finder-like interface to Sun servers connected to Ethernet. It provides
the ideal point and click emulator for your Sun network."
"All of the powerful features of UNIX including file sharing, data
bases, electronic mail and multi-tasking are avaible to you via
MacNIX/net."
"When you use MacNIX from a Macintosh your environment doesn't change.
All UNIX files and directories are shown as icons. Familiar menus
appear across the top of the screen."
"Selecting a menu option with the mouse is all you need to do to
execute UNIX commands. MacNIX generates the error-free UNIX command
string automatically. You can even send UNIX mail using only the mouse.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There's more, but I think you get the idea. The address for more info
is:
LIST, c/o Bill Sullivan
PO Box 271
Stinson Beach, California, USA 94970
AppleLink D0982
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
At our institute we have the following construction:
Everybody (or almost everybody) has a mac + with AppleShare. The AppleShare
servers are unix machines, that use ftp (how this exactly works, I don't
know). The result: blindingly fast downloading of unix files to the mac
and vice-versa, even files with resources are possible. To the user it
looks just like a special kind of regular Mac disk. You can even run
applications from this disk.
There is also something like "TelNet", which I hardly have seen, but which
allows a user to log in on a unix box with the same speed.
I don't know how this all works, but it looks like the thing you need.
For more information, contact "frankk.cwi.nl", who is the guy who put this
all together. You may mention my name, if you like.
+---------------------------+------------------------+----------------------+
| Anton Rang (grad student) | "UNIX: Just Say No!" | "Do worry...be SAD!" |
| Michigan State University | rang@cpswh.cps.msu.edu | |
+---------------------------+------------------------+----------------------+