chari@juniper.uucp (Christopher Michael Whatley) (10/13/88)
This is the official NeXT press release. ----------------------------------------cut here------------------------- NeXT Inc. introduces a new type of computer system aimed at higher education -NeXT Inc., of Palo Alto, Wednesday unveiled the NeXT Computer System, designed to meet the demanding and diverse needs of higher education. The system encompasses the best attributes of workstations and personal computers, adds features previously found only on mainframes and introduces entirely new innovations. "NeXT's mission is to collaborate with higher education to develop innovative, personal and affordable computer solutions for the next decade and beyond," said Steven P. Jobs, president and chief executive officer of NeXT. "We began our product design process at key higher education centers in this country, discovering what they wanted from a computer. Based on what we heard, we have created a revolutionary learning and research environment that represents what computing will be like in the 1990s. "Currently, there is a revolution in software development and use on college and university campuses, generating powerful concepts such as simulated environments for both research and learning. The problem is that higher education lacks a predictable computing target for software developers, which slows emergence of practical products. "NeXT intends to provide this target by raising the lowest common denominator for standard capabilities in academic computing. In this way, we will help spur the realization of some innovative and important software ideas," Jobs said. NeXT saw the need in higher education for a computer that combined qualities of workstations and personal computers, with cabilities far-exceeding either. Specifically, the company took the workstation concepts of built-in networking, large standard display screens, multitasking and a robust application development environment, and designed and packaged them in a one-foot cube with personal computer-like characteristics such as affordability, efficient manufacturability and cool, quiet and reliable use. At the same time, NeXT recognized that significant innovations were necessary to extend its computer system beyond a laundry list of impressive features. NeXT chose to innovate in four main areas: A mainframe on two chips: The architectures of both workstations and personal computers contain inherent bottlenecks to higher performance that cannot be resolved by faster processors alone. To manage the flow of information within the system to yield peak efficiency, NeXT designed the ICP and OSP, two proprietary VLSI (very large-scale integration) chips that endow the system with mainframe-like capabilities. NextStep: Although UNIX provides powerful capabilities and is the most prevalent operating system for higher education and research, the complexity of UNIX-based computers has put them beyond the reach of almost everyone except scientists and engineers. At the same time, developing graphical application software has traditionally extracted an inordinate amount of time and expertise. NeXT has addressed both these problems with NextStep, an object-oriented software environment. NextStep makes the power of UNIX accessible to all users, while it also significantly reduces the time, expertise and software code developers need to construct graphical, end-user applications. Personal Optical Storage and the Digital Library: The potential for desktop computers to open the world's knowledge to an individual has been restricted, in part, by inadequate mass storage and poor searching and indexing capabilities. To break through these restrictions, NeXT used a new storage technology called magneto-optics to create a removable, read/write/erasable 256 Megabyte Optical Disk as the Computer System's standard mass storage device. The Optical Disk makes possible the concept of the "Digital Library," which can comprise on-line reference and literary works, musical scores or images of photographic quality. Included with every system is a powerful searching and indexing tool called the Digital Librarian and a "starter" Digital Library. Sound and Music: Sound is considered a vital communication medium. As a result, NeXT has made sound capabilities integral to its computer system: a microphone jack for input, CD-quality stereo output, a powerful 10 MIPS (million insructions per second) Digital Signal Processor (DSP) and a standard voice mail application. To encourage the development of applications that include sound, music and voice, the system also includes the SoundKit and MusicKit. The Sum is greater than the parts- "Many of the NeXT Computer System's individual components represent major technological breakthroughs," Jobs said. "Taken in sum, they generate capabilities and potential exceeding that of any existing category of computer system." The sytem's basic hardware configuration includes the computer, a one-foot cube that houses on a single board all the computer's highly integrated silicon chips; the 256 Megabyate Optical Disk for editable storage and retrieval of vast amounts of information; the 17-inch, extremely high-resolution MegaPixel Display; and the 400 dpi Laser Printer, which is the first affordable PostScript laser printer and the first low-cost laser printer to provide 400 dots per inch (dpi) resolution. Underlying all the system's capabilities is a small, powerful and efficient set of computer chips, all of which are standard and fit onto a single board. There are three high-performance processors in every system. The main processor is Motorola's top-of-the-line microprocessor, the 68030. Accompanying it is Motorola's 68882 Floating-Point Unit, for fast mathematical computations. Both these chips run at 25 megahertz. The third processor is a 10 MIPS Motorola 56001 Digital Signal Processor chip, for real-time sound and array processing. The board can also support up to 16 megabytes (MB) of main memory. Two proprietary VLSI chips, designed by NeXT, give the sytem its mainframe-like qualities. The Integrated Channel Processor (ICP) manages the flow of data among the central processing unit (the 68030), main memory and all peripheral devices. By offloading the 68030 and ensuring the efficient flow of data within the system, the ICP allows the 68030 to run at its full rated capacity of 5 MIPS. The ICP provides 12 dedicated DMA (direct memory access) channels, including channels for Ethernet networking and for disks, monitor, printer and other peripheral devices. The single ICP chip replaces several hundred chips performing similar functions on a mainframe computer, and it raises sustained system throughput to a level impossible with either personal computer or workstation architectures. The other VLSI chip, the Optical Storage Processor, controls the 256 Megabyte Optical Disk, making possible this new storage technology The Optical Disk combines the vast storage capacities, removability and reliability of laser technology with the fast access and full read/write/erase capabilities of Winchester (magnetic) technology. The Optical Disk provides unprecedented information storage, manipulation and retrieval. With the Optical Disk working in conjunction with the Digital Librarian, a specially designed searching and indexing tool, users can almost instantaneously locate any textual information, in any form, anywhere in the computer. They can also browse through the system to uncover information, ideas or connections between concepts. Software as Part of the System NeXT includes an unparalled amount of software in the price of every NeXT Computer System. The software starts with Mach, an advanced multitasking operating system compatible with 4.3BSD UNIX, which is the standard operating system in higher education communities. In addition, the NeXT Computer System includes NextStep, a complete software environment consisting of four components: the Window Server, the Workspace Manager, the Application Kit and the Interface Builder. The object-oriented environment was developed with the Objective-C programming language, from the Stepstone Corp. NextStep solves the two major problems with UNIX-based systems: They are too complex and difficult for most non-programmers to use, and they require developers to spend an inordinate amount of time and expertise creating graphical, end-user applications. For users, NextStep makes the power of UNIX available by substituting a window-based, graphical and intuitive interface for the traditional UNIX comand-line interface. For developers, NextStep includes the Application Kit, a set of interacting software "objects" for constructing applications. Also included in NextStep is Interface Builder, a completely new kind of software development tool. Interface Builder works graphically, letting the developer construct an application by choosing from a palette of available objects and using the mouse and keyboard to modify the objects as needed, define the layout and establish connections between objects. This process permits the rapid construction of graphical user interfaces and makes application development accessible to a much larger community. NextStep uses the Display PostScript system to ensure true WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) between the screen and the printer. The Display PostScript system includes a high-performance implementation of the PostScript language, the de facto imaging standard for printing. It simplifies the programming of graphical applications that support high-quality printing. To further aid developers, the NeXT Computer System includes the SoundKit, MusicKit, array processing routines, assemblers, compilers, debuggers and a terminal emulator. Standard with each system, on the 256 Megabyte Optical Disk, is a basic Digital Library. A Digital Library can contain complete reference works, books, images or musical scores. The bundled library includes the Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, including definitions, pronunciations and illustrations, not just spelling; Webster's Collegiate Thesaurus; the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations; the Oxford University Press edition of William Shakespeare; The Complete Works. NeXT technical references and other pertinent technical references. The NeXT Computer System also includes a rich set of bundled application software. These applications include WriteNow, a full-featured word processing program; Mathematica, a symbolic mathematics program; the powerful NeXT SQL Database Server, from Sybase; Allegro CL Common Lisp; Jot, a personal text database manager; and a graphical electronic mail application with integrated voice mail capabilities. NeXT has built its business plan and products to meet the needs of higher education. The company determined these needs through close collaboration with leaders at college and university campuses nationwide, uncovering the gaps between current and ideal computer technology for this marketplace. "Higher education is a huge market, certainly big enough in itself to grow NeXT to critical mass," said Dan'l Lewin, vice president of sales and marketing and NeXT. "Beyond that, higher education is the most demanding and diverse marketplace conceivable. It provides a real acid test. If we can do well here, were can do well anywhere. "The key is understanding and committing to a business model that works the way higher education does, both in its generic form and as it varies from campus to campus. That's where NeXT has the edge, because we are the only computer company that has amassed both the market knowledge and the technological ability to deliver the right computing tools," Lewin said. During 1988, NeXT will market its computer System directly to several dozen of the nation's top institutions and software developers. NeXT expects to appeal to higher education on the strength of its technology tools and through the personal business relationships the company has established with the higher education community. Price and Availability The standard NeXT Computer System configuration, which includes 8 MB of main memory, the 256 Megabyte Optical Disk, the MegaPixel Display, keyboard, mouse and complete system software, will sell for $6,500. The 400 dpi Laser Printer will sell for $2,000. All prices quoted are for higher education. NeXT will ship systems to its key customers and developers starting this quarter, and expects to ship systems with final software by the second quarter of 1989 to a broader base of institutions and developers. Available options to the standard configuration include 4 MB RAM expansion modules (up to 16 MB total), 660 MB and 330 MB high-performance Winchester drives, an Ethernet kit, blank Optical Disks and printer toner cartridges. NeXT Inc., of Palo Alto, was founded in October 1985 by Steven P. Jobs, co-founder and former chairman of Apple Computer Inc., and five other individuals. The mission of the privately held company is to collaborate with higher education to develop innovative, personal and affordable computer solutions for the 1990s and beyond. -- $---------------$--------------------------------$-------------------------$ | Chris Whatley | mail chari@juniper.uucp | "Ever seen the chicken | | 512/453-4238 | chari@killer.dallas.tx.us | walk?" -Jeffrey | $---------------$--------------------------------$-------------------------$
swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) (10/13/88)
> The other VLSI chip, the Optical Storage Processor, controls the >256 Megabyte Optical Disk, making possible this new storage technology >The Optical Disk combines the vast storage capacities, removability >and reliability of laser technology with the fast access and full >read/write/erase capabilities of Winchester (magnetic) technology. Hmm, this looks suspicious to me. Note that the the terms "vast storage capacities", "removability", and "reliability" are used to describe laser technology while "full read/write/erase" capabilites are associated with Winchester (magnetic) technology. Does this mean that it is nothing more than CD-ROM and an old-fashioned hard disk packaged together? I also noticed in the press release that blank optical disks will be available so some type of writing is possible, maybe the optical portion is WORM? Earlier in the release it said "removable, read/write/erasable 256 Megabyte Optical Disk", but the above seems to contradict that. Was NeXT trying to make their machine sound more innovative than it really is? -- Scott Wilson arpa: swilson@sun.com Sun Microsystems uucp: ...!sun!swilson Mt. View, CA
jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) (10/14/88)
In article <72886@sun.uucp> swilson@sun.UUCP (Scott Wilson) writes: >>The Optical Disk combines the vast storage capacities, removability >>and reliability of laser technology with the fast access and full >>read/write/erase capabilities of Winchester (magnetic) technology. > >Hmm, this looks suspicious to me. Note that the the terms "vast >storage capacities", "removability", and "reliability" are used to >describe laser technology while "full read/write/erase" capabilites >are associated with Winchester (magnetic) technology. Does this mean >that it is nothing more than CD-ROM and an old-fashioned hard disk >packaged together? I also noticed in the press release that blank >optical disks will be available so some type of writing is possible, >maybe the optical portion is WORM? Earlier in the release it said >"removable, read/write/erasable 256 Megabyte Optical Disk", but the >above seems to contradict that. Was NeXT trying to make their machine >sound more innovative than it really is? When Jobs spoke about the machine and mass storage options for it, he said they discarded the idea of small winchesters and "bet the company" on being able to get read/write/erasable optical disks in time. He stressed the fact that it was a re-writable optical disk and that they were using them 4-5 years before anybody expected the technology to be available. I don't think it is a WORM/magnetic disk combination. Jobs didn't say anything about access times or transfer rates though. The Wall Street Journal today said it is a magneto-optical disk, so perhaps it is a hybrid of both technologies on a single medium. He stressed the removability of the disk as making to possible to carry "everything you've ever done in your back pocket" so you could bring your disk to another university and have everything there just like on your own machine. -- Jeff Lo ..!{ames,hplabs,uunet}!elan!jlo Elan Computer Group, Inc. (415) 322-2450
kmw@ardent.UUCP (Ken Wallich) (10/14/88)
In article <72886@sun.uucp> swilson@sun.UUCP (Scott Wilson) writes: >> The other VLSI chip, the Optical Storage Processor, controls the >>256 Megabyte Optical Disk, making possible this new storage technology >>The Optical Disk combines the vast storage capacities, removability >>and reliability of laser technology with the fast access and full >>read/write/erase capabilities of Winchester (magnetic) technology. > >Hmm, this looks suspicious to me. Note that the the terms "vast >storage capacities", "removability", and "reliability" are used to >describe laser technology while "full read/write/erase" capabilites >are associated with Winchester (magnetic) technology. Does this mean >that it is nothing more than CD-ROM and an old-fashioned hard disk >packaged together? I find it odd that you interpret the phrase this way. I see only one device mentioned, a 256 Meg Optical Disc, it's features are that it has lots of storage on a reliable, removable optical disc, which is also fast and allows you to read/write/erase, just like the 'ol magnetic discs everyone else is so fond of, and that everyone currently associates with read/write/erase. Nothing suspicious to me. If you are distrustful of the optical stuff, you can buy one of two traditional magnetic discs to go along with it, but they are not standard. One omission I noticed was that there was no mention of serial ports, or an integral modem. I guess I have to hook it up via ethernet to a box that *does* have serial ports (like perhaps, a Mac? :-) if I want to hook up my Telebits to it? Also there were no specs given on how 'fast' the optical drive is. I've heard rumors of a 28ms average access time, which is ok, but not all that quick, and no mention of transfer rates, etc. It would be a waste to not have a screeming drive on a 4mb/sec SCSI. Anyone else notice that there was no mention of what the RETAIL price would be? Granted, it is cheaper than a MacII for students (who won't be seeing any of them any time soon), but how about for 'the rest of us'? Anyone know what the depth of the grayscale is? 8bit? 24bit? And a two button mouse, how quaint. Perfectly suited for Xwindows, when it's ported. Sounds like a cute box, can't wait to see how it performs on the street. -- Ken Wallich Ardent Computer Corp kmw@ardent.com Sunnyvale, California, USA "chance is the fools name for fate"
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (10/14/88)
:> The other VLSI chip, the Optical Storage Processor, controls the
:>256 Megabyte Optical Disk, making possible this new storage technology
:>The Optical Disk combines the vast storage capacities, removability
:>and reliability of laser technology with the fast access and full
:>read/write/erase capabilities of Winchester (magnetic) technology.
swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) Writes:
:Hmm, this looks suspicious to me. Note that the the terms "vast
:storage capacities", "removability", and "reliability" are used to
:describe laser technology while "full read/write/erase" capabilites
:are associated with Winchester (magnetic) technology. Does this mean
:that it is nothing more than CD-ROM and an old-fashioned hard disk
:packaged together? I also noticed in the press release that blank
:optical disks will be available so some type of writing is possible,
:maybe the optical portion is WORM? Earlier in the release it said
:"removable, read/write/erasable 256 Megabyte Optical Disk", but the
:above seems to contradict that. Was NeXT trying to make their machine
:sound more innovative than it really is?
Don't be silly, it is perfectly clear. He's saying that it is
an optical drive with the same abilities that one normally sees with
magnetic drives, that is all. Nowhere is there a hint that it is WORM...
in fact, he explicitly says that it is an erasable optical disk.
How you contrived the possibility of an intermediate (standard) HD
and a WORM is beyond me, but such unthoughtful statements only hurt Sun.
It is obvious that, running MACH and with an obvious UNIX
configuration, the NeXT machine is set to compete directly with the
workstation market. Considering the stated university pricing and the
large local storage, UNIX, ethernet (and thus NFS), etc... the NeXT machine
has an incredible advantage over today's workstation market.
... assuming availability, of course. And here I am not even an
Apple advocate! The machine will definitely hurt apple's attempts at
gaining the low end workstation market in upcomming years. Jobs has
effectively curtailed Apple's future plans and threatened all levels of
the workstation market (except for the multi-processor machines) at
the same time.
-Mattcramer@clem (Sam Cramer) (10/14/88)
The NeXT optical disk drive boasts an average seek time of 96ms - an enormous number compared to the sub-20ms times typical on decent Winchesters. Unless they have done something very clever with the controller and/or file system, you are going to have plenty of time for coffee breaks if your application touches the disk. The lack of a floppy presents some problems for software vendors - optical disk cartridges evidently cost around $50. Not what you'd call a cheap distribution medium. -- Sam Cramer sun!cramer cramer@sun.com
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (10/14/88)
In article <363@elan.UUCP> jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: >Jobs didn't say anything about access times or transfer rates though. >The Wall Street Journal today said it is a magneto-optical disk, so >perhaps it is a hybrid of both technologies on a single medium. Someone here got a copy of BYTE Magazine's preview from BIX. It says that the average seek time is 96 ms. They also describe the technology in some detail. Larry Rosenstein, Object Specialist Apple Computer, Inc. 20525 Mariani Ave, MS 46-B Cupertino, CA 95014 AppleLink:Rosenstein1 domain:lsr@Apple.COM UUCP:{sun,voder,nsc,decwrl}!apple!lsr
dvorak@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Dvorak) (10/14/88)
The Wall Street Journal article on Steve Jobs' announcement
of the NeXT Computer System is on display on the wall outside
Taylor 5.114. The earlier posting of the NeXT press release
in this newsgroup gave a more complete picture of the system's
technical features, but the Wall Street Journal article gives
an interesting price comparison to competitors' products, when
comparably equipped. All the machines shown below have 8 MB
main memory and a large disk:
price proc. disk monitor operating sys.
------- ----- ------ ------- --------------
NeXT Computer System $6,500 68030 256 MB 17-inch MACH
Sun 386l/150 $16,990 80386 327 MB 15-inch UNIX,MS-DOS
Apple Macintosh IIx $13,862 68030 192 MB 19-inch Apple *
Compaq 386 Model 300 $19,751 80386 300 MB 12-inch (extra **)
* Apple's A/UX UNIX is an additional $2,600.
** Compaq's UNIX is an additional $695.
The price difference is even more surprising given the large
amount of software bundled with NeXT -- things like Common Lisp,
Objective C, an SQL database server, a symbolic math program,
Display Postscript, and a dictionary and thesaurus.
--
Dan Dvorak ARPA/CS/NSFnet: dvorak@cs.utexas.edu
(512) 471-9576 UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!dvorakdvorak@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Dvorak) (10/14/88)
The Wall Street Journal article on Steve Jobs' announcement
of the NeXT Computer System is on display on the wall outside
Taylor 5.114. The earlier posting of the NeXT press release
in this newsgroup gave a more complete picture of the system's
technical features, but the Wall Street Journal article gives
an interesting price comparison to competitors' products, when
comparably equipped. All the machines shown below have 8 MB
main memory and a large disk:
price proc. disk monitor operating sys.
------- ----- ------ ------- --------------
NeXT Computer System $6,500 68030 256 MB 17-inch MACH
Sun 386l/150 $16,990 80386 327 MB 15-inch UNIX,MS-DOS
Apple Macintosh IIx $13,862 68030 192 MB 19-inch Apple *
Compaq 386 Model 300 $19,751 80386 300 MB 12-inch (extra **)
* Apple's A/UX UNIX is an additional $2,600.
** Compaq's UNIX is an additional $695.
The price difference is even more surprising given the large
amount of software bundled with NeXT -- things like Common Lisp,
Objective C, an SQL database server, a symbolic math program,
Display Postscript, and a dictionary and thesaurus.
--
Dan Dvorak ARPA/CS/NSFnet: dvorak@cs.utexas.eds
(512) 471-9576 UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!dvorawb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu (William M. Bumgarner) (10/14/88)
The optical disk access time is supposed to peak at 30ms. b.bum wb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu
rajesh@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Rajesh Raichoudhury) (10/14/88)
Any info on the optical drive ... like speed specs ... for example how long does a page fault take to service , etc ...
swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) (10/14/88)
In article <635@ardent.UUCP> kmw@ardent.UUCP (Ken Wallich) writes: >In article <72886@sun.uucp> swilson@sun.UUCP (Scott Wilson) writes: >>>...256 Megabyte Optical Disk, making possible this new storage technology >>>The Optical Disk combines the vast storage capacities, removability >>>and reliability of laser technology with the fast access and full >>>read/write/erase capabilities of Winchester (magnetic) technology. >> >>Hmm, this looks suspicious to me. Note that the the terms "vast >>storage capacities", "removability", and "reliability" are used to >>describe laser technology while "full read/write/erase" capabilites >>are associated with Winchester (magnetic) technology. Does this mean >>that it is nothing more than CD-ROM and an old-fashioned hard disk >>packaged together? > >I find it odd that you interpret the phrase this way. I see only one device >mentioned, a 256 Meg Optical Disc, it's features are that it has >lots of storage on a reliable, removable optical disc, which is also >fast and allows you to read/write/erase, just like the 'ol magnetic discs >everyone else is so fond of, and that everyone currently associates with >read/write/erase. Well, I never thought of it that way. Maybe your right. I guess it all depends on how you look at it. For example, leaving out a few words you could have either: "The Optical Disk combines ... laser technology with ... Winchester (magnetic) technology." or: "The Optical Disk combines removability and reliability and ... read/write/erase capabilities ...." So either it's a hybrid of the two technologies or its just optical technology that has the same features as magnetic technology. Isn't English fun? -- Scott Wilson arpa: swilson@sun.com Sun Microsystems uucp: ...!sun!swilson Mt. View, CA "And the fool loves war, and the gentle die." -The Call
bob@eecs.nwu.edu (Bob Hablutzel) (10/14/88)
> price proc. disk monitor operating sys. > ------- ----- ------ ------- -------------- > NeXT Computer System $6,500 68030 256 MB 17-inch MACH > Sun 386l/150 $16,990 80386 327 MB 15-inch UNIX,MS-DOS > Apple Macintosh IIx $13,862 68030 192 MB 19-inch Apple * > Compaq 386 Model 300 $19,751 80386 300 MB 12-inch (extra **) I'm not so sure this is a fair price comparison. The NeXT price is their equivalent of the university consortium prices, at 40% off. I don't think the other vendors prices are adjusted to reflect this. Personally, I just picked up a Mac II (1Mb, 13 inch, 40Mb) for just barely over $4000. This reflects consortium prices. Granted, my disk is smaller (but, if reports are accurate, perhaps 7 TIMES faster (12ms)) and my memory is less, but I don't need anything more (for now). I also got a floppy. Nifty thing for backups and buying software. And serial ports. And installed software base. (More importantly, to me as a developer, an installed _user_ base). And, most importantly to me, I don't have to f-ck with UNIX, not matter how disguised it is. Bob Hablutzel BOB@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU Disclaimer: I hate UNIX. You might love it. Don't flame me. Neither of us are about to change our minds.
macak@lakesys.UUCP (Jim Macak) (10/14/88)
In article <3580@cs.utexas.edu> dvorak@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Dvorak) writes: >... technical features, but the Wall Street Journal article gives >an interesting price comparison to competitors' products, when >comparably equipped. All the machines shown below have 8 MB >main memory and a large disk: > > price proc. disk monitor operating sys. > ------- ----- ------ ------- -------------- >NeXT Computer System $6,500 68030 256 MB 17-inch MACH >Sun 386l/150 $16,990 80386 327 MB 15-inch UNIX,MS-DOS >Apple Macintosh IIx $13,862 68030 192 MB 19-inch Apple * >Compaq 386 Model 300 $19,751 80386 300 MB 12-inch (extra **) >* Apple's A/UX UNIX is an additional $2,600. >** Compaq's UNIX is an additional $695. Ahh, but you aren't really comparing the same prices, I think. The NeXT price is restricted to educational institutions, and the other prices (at least Apple's) is the cost to the general public. I would think that the Apple prices via the educational consortium are considerably lower and therefore appear somewhat more reasonable when compared to the NeXT system. Please do not take this as an endorsement of Apple's price gouging. I don't have the consortium prices, but I bet the NeXT machines still look like a good value when compared to Apple's educational prices. I hope this wakes Apple up and gets them moving to produce a machine with a good deal more power at a competitive price point. Jim -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Jim --> macak@lakesys.UUCP (Jim Macak) {Standard disclaimer, nothin' fancy!} >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
jensen@gt-eedsp.UUCP (P. Allen Jensen) (10/14/88)
In article <72886@sun.uucp>, swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) writes: > > The other VLSI chip, the Optical Storage Processor, controls the > >256 Megabyte Optical Disk, making possible this new storage technology > >The Optical Disk combines the vast storage capacities, removability > >and reliability of laser technology with the fast access and full > >read/write/erase capabilities of Winchester (magnetic) technology. > > Hmm, this looks suspicious to me. Note that the the terms "vast > storage capacities", "removability", and "reliability" are used to > describe laser technology while "full read/write/erase" capabilites > are associated with Winchester (magnetic) technology. ...... The Feb. 1988 issue of the IEEE Spectrum contains an article which should help clarify some of the questions about the technology. The article is "Optical disks become erasable" by Robert P. Freese of Alphatronix, Inc. Basically, new materials allow the data to be magnetically stored by heating the disk to arround 150 degrees C and applying a magnetic field. The reading is done using a low power beam utilizing the Kerr magneto-optic effect. The plane of polarization of the beam will be rotated depending on the pole orientation. The article states that drives with 20-ms access time had already been demonstrated (Feb. 1988). The article refered to "First Generation" drives with "40 to 100ms" access times and that "Second-generation" magneto-optic drives with 20-ms access times had been demonstrated. The article went on to predict that as the technology developed, access times would approach and possibly exceed current winchester technology. Based on this article, I think that the 96ms seek time is probably a worst-case and that the 30-ms is probably correct for a peak access time. I think that the NeXT claims are probably accurate based on this article. P. Allen Jensen -- P. Allen Jensen Georgia Tech, School of Electrical Engineering, Atlanta, GA 30332-0250 USENET: ...!{allegra,hplabs,ihnp4,ulysses}!gatech!gt-eedsp!jensen INTERNET: jensen@gteedsp.gatech.edu
blm@cxsea.UUCP (Brian Matthews) (10/14/88)
Dan Dvorak (dvorak@cs.utexas.edu) writes: | price proc. disk monitor operating sys. | ------- ----- ------ ------- -------------- |NeXT Computer System $6,500 68030 256 MB 17-inch MACH |Sun 386l/150 $16,990 80386 327 MB 15-inch UNIX,MS-DOS |Apple Macintosh IIx $13,862 68030 192 MB 19-inch Apple * |Compaq 386 Model 300 $19,751 80386 300 MB 12-inch (extra **) | |* Apple's A/UX UNIX is an additional $2,600. |** Compaq's UNIX is an additional $695. | |The price difference is even more surprising given the large |amount of software bundled with NeXT -- things like Common Lisp, |Objective C, an SQL database server, a symbolic math program, |Display Postscript, and a dictionary and thesaurus. Of course the NeXT price is the EDUCATIONAL price. Has anyone heard anything about retail price? If the educational discounts are anything like the Mac's original discounts, we can expect retail of ~$13,000. Still very competitive with the other machines mentioned above, but, unfortunately, I don't think I'll be getting one soon... -- Brian L. Matthews blm@cxsea.UUCP ...{mnetor,uw-beaver!ssc-vax}!cxsea!blm +1 206 251 6811 Computer X Inc. - a division of Motorola New Enterprises
sch@tachyon.UUCP (Steve Holzworth) (10/14/88)
In article <72886@sun.uucp>, swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) writes: > Hmm, this looks suspicious to me. Note that the the terms "vast > storage capacities", "removability", and "reliability" are used to > describe laser technology while "full read/write/erase" capabilites > are associated with Winchester (magnetic) technology. Does this mean > that it is nothing more than CD-ROM and an old-fashioned hard disk > packaged together? . . . > > > -- > Scott Wilson arpa: swilson@sun.com > Sun Microsystems uucp: ...!sun!swilson > Mt. View, CA Nope, it's a real thing. A company called Alphatronix in Research Triangle Park, N.C. has a similar (same?) product. Note that it is a combination of technologies. Paraphrasing from an article in "Digital Review": The technology takes advantage of the fact that the media can be recorded magnetically and read by a laser. The disk is heated to 150 degrees C, which enables a magnetic bias field to "flip" bits in the disk. The media itself is normally magnetic north up. If a bias field is applied to it, the bit will be flipped down. (the high temperature makes this possible). When polarized light is projected onto the bits, an up bit twists it one way and a down bit twists it another. Based on the new orientation of the beam, the data is interpreted as a one or zero. Note that the bit flipping only happens at high temperature, so when a cartridge is removed, it is basically involatile, even under intense magnetic fields. Average seek time is 83ms. End paraphrasing. I know someone who has seen the Aplhatronix version work. They also dropped a heavy-duty magnet on the disk cartridge and moved it around, with no ill effect on the data. The core drive is supplied by Sony. I assume the NeXT version is similar. The Alphatronics system is designed to work on the Q-bus or Unibus. They can be reached at (919)544-0001. No, I don't work for any of the above parties, etc. etc. Steve Holzworth rti!tachyon!sch
arwall@athena.mit.edu (Chumley Wood) (10/14/88)
In article <635@ardent.UUCP>, kmw@ardent (Ken Wallich) writes: > >One omission I noticed was that there was no mention of serial ports, or >an integral modem. I guess I have to hook it up via ethernet to a box that >*does* have serial ports (like perhaps, a Mac? :-) if I want to hook up my >Telebits to it? Also there were no specs given on how 'fast' the optical >drive is. I've heard rumors of a 28ms average access time, which is ok, >but not all that quick, and no mention of transfer rates, etc. It would >be a waste to not have a screeming drive on a 4mb/sec SCSI. I've been told that with the 10 MIPS DSP you only need software to get 9600 baud performance as is. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Anders Wallgren Back by popular demand: | | arwall@athena.mit.edu Bush-Noriega '88 - A Crack Team! |
hankd@pur-ee.UUCP (Hank Dietz) (10/14/88)
In article <73003@sun.uucp>, swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) writes: > In article <635@ardent.UUCP> kmw@ardent.UUCP (Ken Wallich) writes: > >In article <72886@sun.uucp> swilson@sun.UUCP (Scott Wilson) writes: [Much stuff about the optical disk...] Certainly, it is possible to make a randomly read/write/modify optical disk; isn't that what Tandy did just a short while ago? The things that bug me are: (1) Less than 300M of storage... that's less than an audio CD. Does this imply that the format is some brand new magic thing that nobody else will be using? (2) $50 each? It should be more like $15 each.... I wonder why it isn't? (3) One disk is the minimum you can run with, and we all know it's stupid to try that, but it sure makes the system price seem nicer.... I'd say that the one-disk system is a marketing hack comparable to selling cars with 3 tires and making the fourth one optional: who's not gonna buy the extra tire? Most of us will even buy a spare.... -hankd
glen@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Glen Rosendale) (10/14/88)
A few words regarding the magneto-optical disk introduced in the NeXT computer: If the disk is similar to the type I researched in the spring (and I believe it is), it is not a combination winchester/WORM disk--rather it is a device which is read from and written to with a laser. But instead of scoring a hole in the reflective coating, the laser records a polarization change in the disk when it heats the alloy above its curie temperature. When a magnetic field is present, the bit retains its magnetic orientation after the spot cools, and the bit can be read by reflecting the same beam (at low power) from the disk and detecting the phase change of the beam reflected from the magnetized bit (Farraday effect, it's called). Since we're dealing with laser optics there's a much higher information density than magnetic disks (at least in theory). The articles I read seemed to indicate a maximum capacity of around a gigabyte for a 5-1/4" disk. The main drawback is speed, and first generation drives are probably in the 50 to 100 ms range (but this is just a guess on my part). There's no reason that the drive can't be as fast as a winchester but technology of the disks and drives will probably have to be improved to support it. There's comparable number of write/erase cycles and bit error rates (BER) as with a winchester. If the NeXT can demonstrate a working erasable M/O (magneto-optic) disk then we'll probably start seeing them in a few months for other computers, and most likely with SCSI or ESDI controllers. I for one would be interested in having a few hundred megabytes of removable erasable storage available, even if it is a little bit pokey.
jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) (10/15/88)
In article <635@ardent.UUCP> kmw@ardent.UUCP (Ken Wallich) writes: >any of them any time soon), but how about for 'the rest of us'? Anyone know >what the depth of the grayscale is? 8bit? 24bit? And a two button mouse, >how quaint. Perfectly suited for Xwindows, when it's ported. Sounds like >a cute box, can't wait to see how it performs on the street. Jobs made no mention of how many bits the monitor is, but rumors I have heard, and an article in the Business section of the San Jose Mercury News say that it is only 2 bits per pixel. Oh well, I guess it's better than black and white. I too would like to see X Windows on the beast (my boss probably won't buy one unless it has X Windows) but it doesn't sound like NeXT will do the port since they haven't said word one about X. -- Jeff Lo ..!{ames,hplabs,uunet}!elan!jlo Elan Computer Group, Inc. (415) 322-2450
debra@alice.UUCP (Paul De Bra) (10/15/88)
In article <3580@cs.utexas.edu> dvorak@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Dvorak) writes: > > >... but the Wall Street Journal article gives >an interesting price comparison to competitors' products, when >comparably equipped... The price comparison is not interesting at all, since the only price quote Jobs has given for the NeXT are prices for "higher education institutes". Other companies like Apple offer considerable discounts to universities, which makes the price difference much smaller. In other words: private persons and companies will NOT be able to buy the NeXT for $6500. (I only wish we could...) Paul. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- |debra@research.att.com | uunet!research!debra | att!grumpy!debra | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
steve@violet.berkeley.edu (Steve Goldfield) (10/15/88)
In article <635@ardent.UUCP> kmw@ardent.UUCP (Ken Wallich) writes: >One omission I noticed was that there was no mention of serial ports, or >an integral modem. I guess I have to hook it up via ethernet to a box that >*does* have serial ports (like perhaps, a Mac? :-) if I want to hook up my I haven't read this anywhere. But a friend of mine told me yesterday that NeXT uses a thin Ethernet connection and that a box to convert to standard Ethernet costs a couple of hundred dollars.
jordan@Apple.COM (Jordan Mattson) (10/15/88)
Dear Dan - I think that you should be aware that you are comparing Apples & Oranges (or should I say Nexts), when you are comparing the full suggested retail price of an Apple product to the preannounced discounted university price for a Next product. Given that the university discount from Apple is from 40% to 50% the price is much more in line. Also, I question the suggested retail price put forward by the Wall Street Journal for the Macintosh IIx and for A/UX. Jordan Mattson UUCP: jordan@apple.apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. CSNET: jordan@apple.CSNET Tools & Languages Product Management 20525 Mariani Avenue, MS 27S Cupertino, CA 95014 408-973-4601 "Joy is the serious business of heaven." C.S. Lewis
kmw@ardent.UUCP (Ken Wallich) (10/15/88)
Let's move this to comp.misc, if Mac owners are interested, they can follow it there. >Well, I never thought of it that way. Maybe your right. I guess it all >depends on how you look at it. For example, leaving out a few words you >could have either: > > "The Optical Disk combines ... laser technology with ... Winchester > (magnetic) technology." > >or: > > "The Optical Disk combines removability and reliability and ... > read/write/erase capabilities ...." > >So either it's a hybrid of the two technologies or its just optical >technology that has the same features as magnetic technology. Isn't >English fun? And leaving out a few words from the last paragraph it says: So [...] it's [...] just optical technology that has the same features as magnetic technology. I don't see your point. Besides, you are taking a phrase from someone who simply put what he saw and heard into his own words, not the official words from NeXT. English is fun, but by leaving out words, words that add MEANING to a phrase, you aren't finding dual meanings, you are simply building a phrase that contains the ambiguity that was never there, or intended to be there. The press release says: "To break through these restrictions, NeXT used a new storage technology called magneto-optics to create a removable, read/write/erasable 256 Megabyte Optical Disk as the Computer System's standard mass storage device." I *would* like to know exactly what 'megneto-optics' means, but otherwise it seems clear, there is one disc, and it contains 256Meg of removable storage. I don't see any ambiguity, only a question of exactly what type of a mechanism is involved in putting that much data onto compact removable media reliably and quickly. There is not even a hint that we are talking about some sort of hybrid with part magnetic and part optical technology. I have problems with the NeXT box having only one form of storage that comes standard, and having that also be the only backup medium. I suppose he missed the disc swapping that we had to do on the original 128K mac before the external floppy was ready, and decided that no one would mind, it would make them feel like it was a real 'steve' product. Of course, I'd be putting one of those old reliable 300 meg Winchesters on mine, since I don't trust this megneto-optics stuff yet :-). Anyway, followups to comp.misc. This really doesn't belong here. -- Ken Wallich Ardent Computer Corp kmw@ardent.com Sunnyvale, California, USA "chance is the fools name for fate"
ken@gatech.edu (Ken Seefried iii) (10/15/88)
In article <9480@pur-ee.UUCP> hankd@pur-ee.UUCP (Hank Dietz) writes: >(1) Less than 300M of storage... that's less than an audio CD. Does this > imply that the format is some brand new magic thing that nobody else > will be using? The unfortunate thing about optical disks is at the single bit level, they are pretty unreliable. Typically, 20-30% of the disk is used for error detection and correction. I understand that the NeXT machine uses about 30%. This wastes a lot of space, but make the disk very relaible. More than likely, no one else is doing quite the same thing. >(2) $50 each? It should be more like $15 each.... I wonder why it isn't? Not true. The optical media for most 5 1/4" WORM drives (eg ISI, Optotech, etc.) runs over $100 dollars, and often lists for $200. $50 is pretty reasonable by comparison... >(3) One disk is the minimum you can run with, and we all know it's stupid > to try that, but it sure makes the system price seem nicer.... I'd > say that the one-disk system is a marketing hack comparable to selling > cars with 3 tires and making the fourth one optional: who's not gonna > buy the extra tire? Most of us will even buy a spare.... > Perhaps, perhaps not. Remeber, an optical disk is not subject to head crashes and other magnetic disk problems, so you don't have to worry about the power going out and thrashing your data. That is not to say that I won't buy a second drive, but it will be for speed, not data reliability... ken seefried iii ...!{akgua, allegra, amd, harpo, hplabs, ken@gatech.edu inhp4, masscomp, rlgvax, sb1, uf-cgrl, ccastks@gitvm1.bitnet unmvax, ut-ngp, ut-sally}!gatech!ken
wetter@tybalt.caltech.edu (Pierce T. Wetter) (10/15/88)
>(2) $50 each? It should be more like $15 each.... I wonder why it isn't?
When HP first started using 3.5" micro floppys they were $50 a box for 10.
Pierce
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Weird theory #48: I'm going to graduate in June.
Send Job Offers to: 1-57 Fleming. Pasadena Ca. 91126kline@arizona.edu (Nick Kline) (10/15/88)
In article <2532@cxsea.UUCP> blm@cxsea.UUCP (Brian Matthews) writes: >Of course the NeXT price is the EDUCATIONAL price. Has anyone heard >anything about retail price? If the educational discounts are anything >like the Mac's original discounts, we can expect retail of ~$13,000. >Still very competitive with the other machines mentioned above, but, >unfortunately, I don't think I'll be getting one soon... > >-- >Brian L. Matthews blm@cxsea.UUCP ...{mnetor,uw-beaver!ssc-vax}!cxsea!blm >+1 206 251 6811 Computer X Inc. - a division of Motorola New Enterprises Well, sorry to tell you this but the Next machine will only be sold to colleges and college affiliated groups (research groups, etc). So, there is no use complaining that the noneducational price will be greater than the educational price since there is not one. Of course, this is passing on second hand information since no one at Next actually told me this :-) Nick Kline, mr Alpine
berlin@bu-cs.BU.EDU (David K. Fickes) (10/15/88)
In article <3580@cs.utexas.edu> dvorak@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Dvorak) writes: > > > price proc. disk monitor operating sys. > ------- ----- ------ ------- -------------- >NeXT Computer System $6,500 68030 256 MB 17-inch MACH Sun 386i/150 ~ $7,000 80386 97? MB 15-inch UNIX,MS-DOS >Apple Macintosh IIx $13,862 68030 192 MB 19-inch Apple * >Compaq 386 Model 300 $19,751 80386 300 MB 12-inch (extra **) > >* Apple's A/UX UNIX is an additional $2,600. >** Compaq's UNIX is an additional $695. But.. as others have mentioned... what about EDUCATIONAL prices for Sun and Apples???? hmmm... I looked into ENTRY Level (100 MB disk) Sun 386 i's.. and it came to about $7,000.. this includes a nice pair of standard operating systems Ethernet ports and the usual Sun nice stuff with a large monitor... All packaged with an operating system that made it a plug and play machine... Of course, with networking who needs disk on the durn thing anyways? Just hook it up to your local Sun server which will give you lots of relatively cheap storage of any kind you want.. Of course, it also runs MS-DOS and all of that software as well as Unix stuff... Now if only BILL JOY (are you listening...) would go out an convice Sun that they should discount the 386i/150 with the smaller disk at a 45% rate.. they'd sell TONS of them... just the one model... I'm not impressed with the NeXT stuff.. new op system etc....and I won't comment on Apple who will sue anything INCLUDING GNU!!! - david -- ============================================================================== David K. Fickes Center for Einstein Studies/Einstein Papers Project UUCP: ...harvard!bu-it!berlin Boston University OTHERWISE: berlin@bu-it.bu.edu 745 Commonwealth Avenue PHONE: (617) 353-9249 (617) 277-9741 Boston, MA 02215
elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) (10/15/88)
in article <73003@sun.uucp>, swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) says: $ In article <635@ardent.UUCP> kmw@ardent.UUCP (Ken Wallich) writes: $>In article <72886@sun.uucp> swilson@sun.UUCP (Scott Wilson) writes: $ Well, I never thought of it that way. Maybe your right. I guess it all $ depends on how you look at it. For example, leaving out a few words you $ could have either: $ $ "The Optical Disk combines ... laser technology with ... Winchester $ (magnetic) technology." $ $ or: $ $ "The Optical Disk combines removability and reliability and ... $ read/write/erase capabilities ...." $ $ So either it's a hybrid of the two technologies or its just optical $ technology that has the same features as magnetic technology. Isn't $ English fun? Actually, the new read/write/erase optical drives DO use magnetic technology -- EE Times had a writeup on them a while back, and apparently they use weird interactions between laser light and certain magnetic materials (interference effects?). Alas, a quick glance at my bookshelf doesn't turn up that copy, so I can't give any real details -- but surely someone around Sun could dig it up for you, if you're truly mystified? -- Eric Lee Green ..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 Software does not happen in a vacuum. Software designers need to know something about hardware, too, despite what the academics tell you.
spolsky-joel@CS.YALE.EDU (Joel Spolsky) (10/15/88)
in article <73003@sun.uucp>, swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) says: | | "The Optical Disk combines ... laser technology with ... Winchester | (magnetic) technology." | | or: | | "The Optical Disk combines removability and reliability and ... | read/write/erase capabilities ...." | | So either it's a hybrid of the two technologies or its just optical | technology that has the same features as magnetic technology. Isn't | English fun? There's a detailed description of how this drive works in the November Byte magazine. Sorry, I can't post it, but I think it's on BIX. +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ | Joel Spolsky | bitnet: spolsky@yalecs uucp: ...!yale!spolsky | | | arpa: spolsky@yale.edu voicenet: 203-436-1483 | +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ #include <disclaimer.h>
jim@eda.com (Jim Budler) (10/15/88)
It all sounds very good, in fact great.
BUT, all it really adds up to is a massive media promotion of a large
scale Beta Site program.
Come on! Availability is only to selected sites.
Price quoted is University discount, not retail.
For 'the rest of us' availability is unspecified, price is unspecified.
Assuming a 40% discount for Universities the base price is, retail, $10833.
Add a 330 Meg disk at prevailing prices (~$8000), a tape drive ($2000)
and you have a $21000 workstation. Sounds like a pretty normal workstation
price range to me.
Now I admit it sounds better than the $21000 workstation I have on my
desk at work, but I can't buy EITHER the NeXT or the Sun for home.
Steve Jobs said 3 years ago he was going to deliver a great workstation
for $5000. The announcement says he almost made it ($6500 vs. $5000), if
and only if you ignore the *restricted* delivery. My personel interpretation
of his promise 3 years ago was he would deliver a great workstation for
$5000 *retail*.
Steve Jobs has now, today, only delivered another *promise*.
Remember, Beta Sites had Full Write Professional ages ago. And during
that period between Beta and Retail delivery we called FWP *vaporware*.
I'm disappointed.
But it does sound great.
Are you listening, Steve?
--
uucp: {decwrl,uunet}!eda!jim Jim Budler
internet: jim@eda.com EDA Systems, Inc.osmigo@ut-emx.UUCP (10/15/88)
[Mucho hoopla about the optical disk deleted] The NeXT's (I'm already getting tired of typing that thing!) optical disk has been compared to audio CD's, which are hallmarked by superb reliability and durability. "Pour sludge on it, rinse it off, stick it back in the drive, and you still get studio-master-quality sound." Does anybody have information on the reliability of the NeXT's storage medium? Are these things going to do the same thing to hard drives that audio CD's did to vinyl LP's? We live in exciting times, don't we?...... (-8 Ron =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ >--Ron Morgan--------------{ames, utah-cs, uunet}!ut-sally!ut-emx!osmigo-------< >--Univ. of Texas--{gatech, harvard, pyramid, sequent}!ut-sally!ut-emx!osmigo--< >--Austin, Texas--------osmigo@ut-emx.UUCP-------osmigo@emx.utexas.edu---------< =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
chari@juniper.uucp (Christopher Michael Whatley) (10/16/88)
In article <7472@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> arwall@athena.mit.edu (Chumley Wood) writes: >In article <635@ardent.UUCP>, kmw@ardent (Ken Wallich) writes: > >>[thinks there are no serial ports] >I've been told that with the 10 MIPS DSP you only need software to get >9600 baud performance as is. According to a BYTE article on BIX, the NeXT has two Mac-compatible serial ports, a Mac compatible SCSI (but faster) and a printer port. All are hooked into the DMA chip. The printer, for example, barfs out 1MB per second in draft mode and 4MB/sec in best mode. Also, there is a direct connection to the DSP chip that could be used for a phone jack interface. Basically, you can hook up any ol' modem until they get the emulation working. Chris Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac Subject: Re: NeXT press release (very long but interesting) Summary: Expires: References: <5423@juniper.uucp> <72886@sun.uucp> <635@ardent.UUCP> <7472@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> Sender: Reply-To: chari@juniper.UUCP (Christopher Michael Whatley) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Austin UNIX Users' Group, Austin, TX Keywords: -- $---------------$--------------------------------$-------------------------$ | Chris Whatley | mail chari@juniper.uucp | "Ever seen the chicken | | 512/453-4238 | chari@killer.dallas.tx.us | walk?" -Jeffrey | $---------------$--------------------------------$-------------------------$
bader+@andrew.cmu.edu (Miles Bader) (10/16/88)
jim@eda.com (Jim Budler) writes: > My personel interpretation > of his promise 3 years ago was he would deliver a great workstation for > $5000 *retail*. I don't think you're correct. NeXT's stated market was, from the beginning, the university market (only). Supposedly they've later indicated thoughts about expanding their target. -Miles
gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu (10/16/88)
One thing people tend to overlook in PC's and even workstations is a
powerful I/O system. This was a central concept in the first personal
computer, the Alto. Every descendant of the Alto strived to improve
the I/O throughput.
I think it's safe to say that NO pc in the marketplace has a very high
bandwidth I/O system (the kind that can look at back-to-back packets
on the ethernet while simultaneously doing BITBLT's on the screen and
making progress on some tasks). In fact, most vendors take the
opposite attitude -- "We want the system to be extremely cheap, so all
I/O will be done in software, and bottlenecked by the main CPU".
Apple is notorious for this -- it allows them to fix their design
mistakes with new ROMs.
If the NeXT really delivers such a muscular I/O system without kluges,
then I'm completely sold on their architecture. This may be the
biggest hidden innovation in their machine.
Don Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois
1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801
ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP: {uunet,ihnp4,harvard}!uiucdcs!gilliesgillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu (10/16/88)
Here is some info on public availability of the NeXT machine. Perhaps Jobs' hands are tied by his pact with Apple Computer. >Written 12:35 11/13/88 by grunwald@uiucdcsm in p.cs.uiuc.edu general */ >The NYT had an economic analysis of NeXT his morning (as well as pictures). > >They said prospects look bleak, because the $6500 price is the university >discount, and further more, the machine won't be sold to the public. > ... > >Written 3:57 11/13/88 by johnson@p.cs.uiuc.edu in p.cs.uiuc.edu:general */ >The way I heard it, NeXT expects that it will only sell to universities >for a few years. Once it gets established, a larger market will open >up. I am sure that if you offered money they would give you a machine, >but I think that at first they are planning to sell direct to universities >only. That will probably reduce sales costs. There marketing people >must think that universities are a large enough market for the first >year or two. So maybe it's fair to compare educational prices, because THERE IS NO OTHER PRICE FOR THE MACHINE....
john@frog.UUCP (John Woods) (10/16/88)
In article <363@elan.UUCP>, jlo@elan.UUCP (Jeff Lo) writes: > The Wall Street Journal today said it is a magneto-optical disk, so > perhaps it is a hybrid of both technologies [WORM + Winchester] > on a single medium. > No; magneto-optical disks are a brand new* effect. Basically, the heat of the write laser is used to alter the magnetization of the spot on the disk; this changes the optical properties of that spot (the polarization, I believe) and thus changes what the read laser will see. [*Well, I suppose this effect was inherent in the way the physical laws sorted themselves out as the Big Bang cooled, but you know what I mean :-]. -- John Woods, Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john, john@frog.UUCP, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw@eddie.mit.edu Goooooood Morning Discovery! -Robin Williams Abracadabra, 'press to MECO', America is back in space!
holland@mips.csc.ti.com (Fred Hollander) (10/16/88)
In article <635@ardent.UUCP> kmw@ardent.UUCP (Ken Wallich) writes: >any of them any time soon), but how about for 'the rest of us'? Anyone know >what the depth of the grayscale is? 8bit? 24bit? And a two button mouse, I thought read that it was a 2 bit gray scale, but I'm SURE they just dropped the 4 from the 24 :-). Fred Hollander Computer Science Center Texas Instruments, Inc. holland%ti-csl@csnet-rela The above statements are my own and not representative of Texas Instruments.
jim@eda.com (Jim Budler) (10/17/88)
In article <3580@cs.utexas.edu> dvorak@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Dvorak) writes: >technical features, but the Wall Street Journal article gives >an interesting price comparison to competitors' products, when >comparably equipped. All the machines shown below have 8 MB >main memory and a large disk: > price proc. disk monitor operating sys. >NeXT Computer System $6,500 68030 256 MB 17-inch MACH NOTE: University VaporPrice >Sun 386l/150 $16,990 80386 327 MB 15-inch UNIX,MS-DOS NOTE: Retail, and discountable , Price >Apple Macintosh IIx $13,862 68030 192 MB 19-inch Apple * NOTE: Retail, and discountable, Price >Compaq 386 Model 300 $19,751 80386 300 MB 12-inch (extra **) NOTE: Retail, and discountable, Price >The price difference is even more surprising given the large >amount of software bundled with NeXT -- things like Common Lisp, I don't see any price *comparison* above. It's dismaying to find out that even the people at Wall Street Journal cannot read. *ALL* the prices quoted from NeXT are University Special, and they don't even say what the percentage is. I'd estimate that at about 40% the NeXT would probably be about $11K and it has no tape drive or floppy. The software is nice, but much of it is also Beta. >Dan Dvorak ARPA/CS/NSFnet: dvorak@cs.utexas.edu -- uucp: {decwrl,uunet}!eda!jim Jim Budler internet: jim@eda.com EDA Systems, Inc.
john@trigraph.UUCP (John Chew) (10/17/88)
In article <3580@cs.utexas.edu> dvorak@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Dvorak) writes: > ... but the Wall Street Journal article gives >an interesting price comparison to competitors' products, when >comparably equipped. All the machines shown below have 8 MB >main memory and a large disk: > price proc. disk monitor operating sys. > ------- ----- ------ ------- -------------- >NeXT Computer System $6,500 68030 256 MB 17-inch MACH >Sun 386l/150 $16,990 80386 327 MB 15-inch UNIX,MS-DOS >Apple Macintosh IIx $13,862 68030 192 MB 19-inch Apple * >Compaq 386 Model 300 $19,751 80386 300 MB 12-inch (extra **) >* Apple's A/UX UNIX is an additional $2,600. >** Compaq's UNIX is an additional $695. This is not a fair comparison. $6,500 is the proposed educational discount price for the NeXT, whereas the other prices appear to be list prices. Since both Sun and Apple offer substantial discounts to educational institutions, I'd be interested to see a comparison of these discounted prices -- the NeXT would still probably come out ahead, but not by very much. John Chew -- john j. chew, iii poslfit@utorgpu.bitnet trigraph, inc. poslfit@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu toronto, canada {uunet!mnetor!utzoo,utgpu,utcsri}!trigraph!john [it is my opinion that these are solely my opinions.]
Mark_Peter_Cookson@cup.portal.com (10/18/88)
Here is a little file I got off of a local BBS about the NeXT machine that should help to answer some questions and give more details. Forgive the language, I tried to catch it all, but if I missed something, well, I tried... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- folks might be interested in...he does like to use emphatic language, which i have left in. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is my basic technical evaluation of the NeXT machine. (All the stuff the papers will be too clueless about to print...) Forward this to anybody not on the list who might want it. Oct 12, 1988 Small review: This is the next generation of computers. Don't buy a Mac. Don't even think about it. Price: $6500 (education price, basic machine) $2000 (printer) Overview: Like the original Mac, the view subscribed to is that of Least Common Denominator. That is, software developed for the machine will be written so the audience is the largest, which means, for the basic no frills machine. Thus the basic machine is all frills. All of which count. Physical Characteristics: Mouse, keyboard, monitor and 'box' are part of the basic package. The color scheme is black. The box is a 'tower' type box, meant to sit away from everything, connected by one thick cable to the monitor. The keyboard and mouse are connected to the monitor. There are several connetors on the back of the monitor: mini headphone jack, stereo RCA connectors, mike in. The monitor is 'perched' on a swivel stand, with space enough underneath for the keyboard. The box is unusually small for a machine of this caliber. It is a little larger than a vaxstation. The monitor is a megapixel monitor, 17 inch diagonal. Execellent white rendition. It is gray scale, driven with 2 bits/pixel. The keyboard is a very good keyboard. Those who have used it say they type faster on it than on most keyboards. The mouse is a 'curvatious' two button thing. Hardware: The machine is f***ing amazing. Remeber this is the BASE machine: I guess I should start with the processor. Watch it, this comes fast and furious. Memory: 4 MB standard (I think) 16 MB possible. Processor: 68030@25Mhz, 68882@25Mhz, Custom NuBus chip @25Mhz, 'Mainframe on a chip' @ 25Mhz, video @100Mhz, 52008 (?) DSP @25Mhz. Yes, the whole board is at 25Mhz, but that is only part of the story. The NuBus if FULL NuBus (not stripped like the apple version) at a FULL 25 Mhz. All of the control for the NuBus is on one big giant chip. (Apple's NuBus goes at barly 10MHz)! The DSP is f***ing amazing. Stereo, 16bit, 44Khz, raw CD compatible (speculation has the machine playing CD's like a stereo), can write raw CD to the optical drive to be read elswhere. The chip has a FFT instruction - enabling REALTIME FFTs! A/D's 16 bit are part of the chip too. (There is a built in microphone to use them) All with DMA to memory possible. The 'mainfram on a chip' is actually two custom chips. The do ALL the io. Everything in the system has an IO controller. NOTHING goes through the 68030! You can have everything in the system going (optical disk read, stereo synthesis, video action, and keyboard input) and still have about half the processor's time for anything else. Throughput of the system is therefore about 37 MIPS!!! The system architecture is based on the memory being the bottleneck, not the IO. With all the IO on it's own chip, this is true. So the system is going to be at least 2 * any other 25MHz system. The memory for the display (which is part of the main board) is VRAM, driven by the video chip, which means NO CPU cycles go for display. Drive: 250MB r/w optical removable drive. (Yes, 250 not 25) The disks are CD-sized, with a protective casing. I don't know the speed of the drive. Two winchester add ons are availiable (300 MB and 600 MB). No external r/w CDs were announced. IO ports: 4 Mbyte SCSI, serial, 4 NuBus slots. The SCSI is very fast, and is pin compatible with the Mac SCSI port (AH!). NeXT uses one of the NuBus slots for itself. There IS ethernet on board. And the machine can boot from there if there is no disk in. If that wasn't enough, all of the following software is bundled: OS: Mach. Really. It fast, and it does true multitasking. Not the diddlyshit that Apple and IBM are playing around with. Right on top of the OS is Display PostScript. Everything on the screen is either blitted there (like icons) or drawn by DPS (like everything else: menus, windows, scrollbars). Which means rotated text at different scales is possible, without looking like crap as it does on the Mac. Which means images and graphics can easily become part of any document. The NeXT toolkit is there, which provides the UI. The UI is very clean and well though out. Icons are nice and big, menus are all tearaway, scroll bars are obvious and clean. When you drag a window, it drags a window, not an outline. The 4 gray levels make things nice, and the way they are used gives everything a three-d look to it (scrollbars and buttons stand out, arrows and menus sink in.) Besides helping to make PostScript images look photographic. Also in the bundles software is the application builder. This is sort of like MacApp, only better. Every tool has an action, which is contained in a big menu. (i.e. I want to place a button here, and make it a 'stop' button...) A very good application can be built very quickly. At the demo is SF, they built a physics demo where molecules bounced around in a cylynder in real time, with a piston at one end compressing and expanding, with sound for the collisions, a strip recorder in another window displaying the pressure on the piston. This is a very polished, very well though out program. Another demo used the microphone. In real time, the voice was input, the frequency displayed in a window acting as a digital oscilliscope, and another window showing the real time FFT of the sound input. All done with nothing but the base machine. Also included are a dictionary, thesaurus, and encyclopaedia, which contains pictured. Along with these is Mathmatica (Macsyma only better), and an SQL database. There are a couple of more things I can't remember. There is a 'finder' program, of course, which is what MultiFinder was supposed to be when people were still dreaming about it. That's what is bundled in the basic package. There are also a couple of applications availiabe: Write Now, Frame (Pagemaker only better), and some other things. The LaserPrinter is a 400 dpi printer. The price comes from the fact that it doesn't have PostScript on board, it gets the bits from DPS on the main box. Which means, to use the printer, you need a box. Which also means, who cares? For $8500 you can have something that would take over $30000 to put together any other way. There is more bang for the buck in this machine than in any other machine due to be out in the next year. As for Sun's 'next killer' - Hah! I'd sell my Sun stock as soon as possible. Their SPARC based machine may have a processor rated for more MIPS than the 68030, but machine throughput won't be as high, and the machine will cost 2* as much. DEC is the only company that has a machine in the works that could possibly compete. But it won't come with enough stuff to make it usable in the way this machine is. The machine is a miracle at the EDU price. I would pay up to $11000 for the box and printer. They also announced the involvement with IBM at the show. Basically, the deal is that IBM gets the toolkit, so that programs should be compile- and-go (really port-and-go) to the RT. Which is getting another update. They did what they set out to do. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- and that's the way it was described... And there you go, hope this helps. Mark Cookson
lyang%scherzo@Sun.COM (Larry Yang) (10/18/88)
In article <9480@pur-ee.UUCP> hankd@pur-ee.UUCP (Hank Dietz) writes: >Certainly, it is possible to make a randomly read/write/modify optical disk; >isn't that what Tandy did just a short while ago? The things that bug me are: > >(1) Less than 300M of storage... that's less than an audio CD. Does this > imply that the format is some brand new magic thing that nobody else > will be using? An audio CD has as its "format" basically one, long serial spiral (not unlike its vinyl counterpart). In computer applications, I believe the disks are usually formatted into wedges (sectors), not unlike its magnetic counterpart. Thus, along with the ECC overhead, there is the overhead for formating the sectors, labeling the sectors, etc. But wait... is the disk the same physical size as the audio CD? >(2) $50 each? It should be more like $15 each.... I wonder why it isn't? My guess is that the price will come down with time. --Larry Yang [lyang@sun.com,{backbone}!sun!lyang]| A REAL _|> /\ | _ _ _ Sun Microsystems, Inc., Mountain View, CA | signature | | | / \ | \ / \ | <|_/ \_| \_/\| |_\_| | _/ _/
ogus@math.Berkeley.EDU (Arthur E. Ogus) (10/18/88)
At the old university discount price for Mac II's we were able to purchase Mac II systems with 8 meg of memory and a third party 90 megabyte drive for about 7000. This is of course completely without softare, except for Hypercard and the Mac OS, which I regard as barely passable. Thus, comparing the NeXT discount price to the Mac discount price still makes the NeXT machine look like a very good deal--assuming, of course, that the price really stays where it is when it starts shipping. (By the way, we are still waiting for most of our memory.) --
suitti@haddock.ima.isc.com (Steve Uitti) (10/19/88)
In article <3580@cs.utexas.eds: < dvorak@cs.utexas.edu (Dan Dvorak) writes: >The Wall Street Journal article on Steve Jobs' announcement... >...comparably equipped. All the machines shown below have 8 MB >main memory and a large disk: > price proc. disk monitor operating sys. > ------- ----- ------ ------- -------------- >NeXT Computer System $6,500 68030 256 MB 17-inch MACH >Apple Macintosh IIx $13,862 68030 192 MB 19-inch Apple * >* Apple's A/UX UNIX is an additional $2,600. My Mac II (not a IIx) was about $5K. Upgrading (original purchase) to 8 MB RAM, a larger disk & MMU wouldn't cost any where near $8K. My 40 MB disk is fine for Mac OS use. AOS doesn't look worth owning, so that is moot. Fortunately I didn't by the Mac for UN*X. 8 MB of RAM would be nice, but 2 MB works for most things. I still call what I have a workstation, due to the way it behaves. I got my Mac II last fall, at University prices. Prices have increased for the Mac recently. I think the NeXT prices quoted are University prices, and other prices were list. This is bad. WSJ generally does better than this (or was it an ad?). The NeXT machine looks like a nice UN*X box, and competitive, but the given price list *is* misleading. >The price difference is even more surprising given the large >amount of software bundled with NeXT -- things like Common Lisp, >Objective C, an SQL database server, a symbolic math program, >Display Postscript, and a dictionary and thesaurus. Some of these would be nice to have, certainly, depending on who you are, and what you want. One should look at the system from a what you can do with it approach. As delivered: Capability NeXT Mac (without AOS) WYSIWYG word processing yes +$100 Laser printing +$? +$2K (General Computer PLP) C environ yes +$100 (LSC) Database maybe hypercard... Paint capabilities ? +$100 Document digitizing no +$250 (Thunderscan) Sound digitizing yes (8KHz) +$250 (22KHz) Digitized sound out yes yes (but real music cost$) Screen Color no (not yet) yes Networking yes +$? lots of options. MIDI (music networking) no +$250 (lots of options). The Mac platform is pretty nice. The features may be implemented differently, but the quality is similar and generally cheap. Is there anything major that you can't do with a Mac (and a few bucks)? Generally for $100, you can get some new capability (more for new hardware). I prefer to add to my machine incrementally. UN*X isn't new, but it is new to the high volume low cost workstation market, compared to the Mac. It is mainly weak in low cost applications. People seem to be unwilling to give up on the high cost for multiuser software attitude, that UN*X inherits by being multiuser. The NeXT hardware platform is new, and it remains to be seen if hardware upgrades will be available (and cheaply). Add your own to this list, but be careful about saying for example "display postscript", since in itself this doesn't do anything for you that quickdraw doesn't do for a Mac. It just doesn't do it the same. Quickdraw will do high res graphics, etc. I used to be a UN*X fanatic, now, its just a living. Religion is expensive. Your mileage may vary. Stephen.
wetter@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Pierce T. Wetter) (10/19/88)
Personally, my opinion is that it would be nice to have both a Mac II and a NeXT box. On the II I run canned software like the Douglas schematic and PCB layout program I have, and full write. On the NeXT box I: write my own stuff in C++ (yay!), use Mathematica, use WriteNow, use UNIX/MACH stuff. This gives me the best of both worlds. Pierce
paul@unisoft.UUCP (n) (10/19/88)
Just couple of corrections: In article <10103@cup.portal.com> Mark_Peter_Cookson@cup.portal.com writes: >NuBus if FULL NuBus (not stripped like the apple version) at a FULL 25 Mhz. >All of the control for the NuBus is on one big giant chip. (Apple's NuBus >goes at barly 10MHz)! 10MHz is the IEEE NuBus standard, there is NO other standard (since TI owns the rights to the name Steve may not even be able to call it that). Apple did make some trivial changes (redefined one pin to be an interrupt line and changed the shape of the cards), mostly to reduce the price of 3rd party cards (helps both you and us card developers). What percentage of people with Macs are limited by the speed of their NuBus? (Do you know any?) Of course this doesn't stop stop Steve from making his own standard ... and obviously 25MHz is faster than 10MHz - I think he needs this speed for something else .... >The memory for the display (which is part of the main board) is VRAM, >driven by the video chip, which means NO CPU cycles go for >display. With VRAMs you do have to use some memory bandwidth for row access but the amount is trivial, I guess that's why they use them in the Mac II memory cards too. Paul -- Paul Campbell, UniSoft Corp. 6121 Hollis, Emeryville, Ca ..ucbvax!unisoft!paul Nothing here represents the opinions of UniSoft or its employees (except me) "Gorbachev is returning to the heritage of the great Lenin" - Ronald Reagan 1988 (then the Wasington Post attacked RR [from the right] for being a Leninist)
kr0k+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kenton Arthur Radek) (10/20/88)
Pierce T. Wetter writes: >Personally, my opinion is that it would be nice to have both a Mac II and a NeXT box. ... >This gives me the best of both worlds. Obviously. It also gives you the cost of both worlds :-( I've already sold my Mac...now I just have to get a Cube... goo
ech@poseidon.ATT.COM (Edward C Horvath) (10/20/88)
From article <8359@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu>, by wetter@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Pierce T. Wetter): ! Personally, my opinion is that it would be nice to have both a Mac II and a ! NeXT box. On the II I run canned software like the Douglas schematic and ! PCB layout program I have, and full write. ! On the NeXT box I: write my own stuff in C++ (yay!), use Mathematica, ! use WriteNow, use UNIX/MACH stuff. ! This gives me the best of both worlds. ! Pierce How about a Cray in the next room, just in case you want to design a thermonuclear device? And a satellite dish, and a frame-capture board, and FTL travel, and Morgan Fairchild... =Ned Horvath= Disclaimer: this isn't even MY opinion.
cory@gloom.UUCP (Cory Kempf) (10/20/88)
In article <73226@sun.uucp>, lyang%scherzo@Sun.COM (Larry Yang) writes: > An audio CD has as its "format" basically one, long serial spiral > (not unlike its vinyl counterpart). In computer applications, I believe > the disks are usually formatted into wedges (sectors), not unlike its > magnetic counterpart. Thus, along with the ECC overhead, there is the > overhead for formating the sectors, labeling the sectors, etc. A data CD (at least in the standards that I have used) is formatted in a LONG spiral. the spiral is broken down into several blocks, each of which "looks" like it is 2k. In reality, they use some error correction code (ECC) that causes 8 bits to use up 14 bits of space. A CD-ROM holds about 660Mb of data after ECC, or on the order of 1 Gb without the ECC. Unfortunately (at least from what I have heard), the Audio CD's (and CD-ROM's are not compatable with the WORMs or WMRM drives. The Audio CD/CD-ROM work on a laser reflection off of pits in the substrate of the disc. (NB: when refering to CD's, disc is correct, not disk.) -- Cory Kempf UUCP: {decvax, bu-cs}!encore!gloom!cory revised reality... available at a dealer near you.
wetter@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Pierce T. Wetter) (10/21/88)
->Personally, my opinion is that it would be nice to have both a Mac II and a > NeXT box. > ... ->This gives me the best of both worlds. > Obviously. It also gives you the cost of both worlds :-( Actually, I won my Mac II in a contest, since I am, after all, God's Gift to Mac Programming. (Or writing Museum demos anyways.) :-) For full details check out the smithsonian in May '89. Pierce !death to INEWS
fischer@iesd.uucp (Lars P. Fischer) (11/10/88)
In article <15488@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> steve@violet.berkeley.edu (Steve Goldfield) writes: >I haven't read this anywhere. But a friend of mine told me >yesterday that NeXT uses a thin Ethernet connection and that >a box to convert to standard Ethernet costs a couple of hundred >dollars. Just about every workstation uses thin ethernet (cheapernet). This is because cabels are cheaper and hooking up new machines are simpler and cheaper. One typically uses thin ethernet to connect all workstations in a department. Thick ethernet can then be used to link these departemental nets together to form a large net, like a complete campus net. Hope this helps. /Lars -- Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.dk, {...}!mcvax!diku!iesd!fischer We must remove the TV-induced stupor that lies like a fog across the land. - T. H. Nelson
fischer@iesd.uucp (Lars P. Fischer) (11/10/88)
In article <6929@ut-emx.UUCP> osmigo@emx.UUCP (Ron Morgan) writes: >The NeXT's (I'm already getting tired of typing that thing!) optical disk >has been compared to audio CD's, which are hallmarked by superb reliability >and durability. "Pour sludge on it, rinse it off, stick it back in the drive, >and you still get studio-master-quality sound." Which is of course nothing but hype. CD's are as fragile as vinyl LP's. Bit errors simply sound *different* than scracthes in vinyl, not *better*. >Does anybody have information >on the reliability of the NeXT's storage medium? Are these things going to >do the same thing to hard drives that audio CD's did to vinyl LP's? We live >in exciting times, don't we?...... (-8 Oh, no. It's enough to have to put up with this mess they call digital audio. Hopefully, computer technology will get *better*, not worse. -- Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.dk, {...}!mcvax!diku!iesd!fischer We must remove the TV-induced stupor that lies like a fog across the land. - T. H. Nelson
osmigo@ut-emx.UUCP (11/14/88)
In article <996@iesd.uucp> fischer@iesd.dk (Lars P. Fischer) writes: >Which is of course nothing but hype. CD's are as fragile as vinyl LP's. The *material* is, of course, but as a medium, there's no comparision. >Oh, no. It's enough to have to put up with this mess they call digital >audio. I'd like to personally invite you over to rec.audio to discuss this statement. =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ > Ron Morgan {ames, utah-cs, uunet, gatech}!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!osmigo < > Univ. of Texas {harvard, pyramid, sequent}!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!osmigo < > Austin, Texas osmigo@ut-emx.UUCP osmigo@emx.utexas.edu < =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
langford@reed.UUCP (Chris Langford) (11/15/88)
Someone asked whether or not the NeXT disks were reliable. I was at a
NeXT demo on friday, and someone there asked the same question. The rep
said that they were having problems with the read laser trashing info
instead of just reading it, but that the problem had been fixed. I have
also heard tell that a large amount of the space on the disks is used for
error correction. Anyone else out there know more? Please notice that
I have directed follow-ups to comp.sys.next.
--
Chris Langford {decvax allegra ucbcad ucbvax hplabs}!tektronix!reed!langford
langford@reed.bitnet | "And to everyone else out there,
| the secret is to bang the rocks
| together, guys." mfox@hpbsla.HP.COM (Martin_Fox) (11/16/88)
But WAIT! How much of the processor bandwidth will be consumed by
Display PostScript? For that matter, what IS Display PostScript?
According to what I've heard (no more than third or fourth hand), DSP
is essentially PostScript with a new binding mechanism and some added
features for color and raster. This would indicate to me that it would
contain some of the limitations of the original PostScript, namely:
1) No storage of Paths. PS does not store more than one path
(description of a figure). To work with multiple paths, one
has to write multiple procedures which generate the necessary
paths and call the appropriate one whenever one wants to burp
out a path. This applies to transforming a given path multiple
times; you would have to change the global transform matrix and
recreate the path multiple times.
2) Interpreter overhead. This includes dictionary lookups,
interpreting routines written in DPS (which I would assume
is largely unnecessary with a new binding), and such.
3) General unfriendliness of the language for developers.
I am sure there are other consideration here which I am missing but
others will be sure to catch. What it boils down to is 1) is Display
PostScript a convenient imaging model for interactive display graphics,
2) does it lend itself to a good development environment, and 3)
what is its performance?
Remember, I am writing this note while eating lunch, and tend to have
trouble focusing and writing clearly with peanut butter stuck to my
teeth. Also, I have not seen the DPS specs, and am assuming Adobe did
not radically modify PostScript for DPS.
Any ideas?
Martin Fox
Boise, Idaho
Where all the license plates read "Famous Potatos", even on Porsches.