sho@pur-phy (Sho Kuwamoto) (11/28/88)
In article <928@dogie.edu> terranova@vms.macc.wisc.edu (John Terranova) writes:
<In article <2712@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>, mikem@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Mike Morton) writes...
<
<<As long as we're helping Apple redesign the Finder, I have a request:
<<
<So do I. I love the Mac interface. Honest, I do. But, much as I hate
<to admit it, it is not perfect. In fact, no derivative of it (in my
<opinion) can be perfect. Sometimes a command line is preferable. I
<would like a single command line window in the Finder. Give it a menu
<option and command key equivalent. The window could function not too
<dissimilarly from the UNIX csh.
<
<It would come with standard commands (ls, cp, mv, more, jobs, ...).
<People can write their own routines that can be called from it with the
<same type of parameters as normal UNIX programs.
<
<Can you say "The Best of Both Worlds?" OK, how much flame am I going
<to get now?
None, at least from this end. I agree, to some extent. An obvious
starting point would be the MPW shell. The MPW shell has a lot of
nice features, but there are some things which should be done
differently for a CLI window in the Finder. First, it would be nice
to have some feedback showing the current working directory. On one
hand, it kind of makes sense to use the top Finder window, but that
would mean that different windows would have to keep opening for every
cd. Second, MPW doesn't seem to have a path. I don't use MPW, so I
could be wrong. This is especially annoying since it's difficult to
remember exact pathnames after being used to the Finder.
This sounds like just nitpicking, but let me put the situation this
way. I would greatly appreciate having a command line interface to
the Finder. What I picture in my mind would be an MPW window running
under the Finder. I don't feel comfortable with the MPW shell for
some unknown reason. I'm probably just not used to it. One of the
reasons is that I don't like it is psychological. On a UNIX machine,
or egad! an MS-DOS machine, I feel like I am communicating with the
machine at a very low level. assembly:pascal::cli:windows. But under
MPW, I feel like I'm running a fancy text-editor which can interpret
my commands and pass them on to the Finder. Don't get me wrong, the
MPW shell is very powerful. It's just this feeling I have that I'm
not at the heart of the machine.
Maybe if Apple could find a nice way to integrate the Finder interface
and a command line interface, I wouldn't feel this way. And part of
the reason is that I don't optimize my filenames for a CLI. Filenames
with spaces in them are a real drag.
I think the key is to make every low-level function available to the
CLI, make every high-level function avaiable to the window interface,
and have plenty of overlap. Seriously rethink the whole interface so
that the CLI fits smoothly with the Finder. Think about how to
enhance the CLI concept without losing the power. For example, I'd
like to see a pane in the CLI window with the contents of the cwd.
And I'd like to see a rethinking of the history mechanism. The MPW
method is very powerful, but I'm somehow uncomfortable with it. Maybe
it's just me. Maybe stick the CLI in a floating palette, like the
message box in Hypercard.
I'm a big believer in CLI's. In a lot of situations, it's easier to
use for the experienced user than a visual interface. That's why I'm
putting one into the data analysis program I've been working on. (and
probably will still be working on when hell freezes over) When I use
the MPW shell, I get the feeling that although it's nice for some
things, I'd be lost without the Finder. On the Amiga, I feel
comfortable using just the CLI interface, and not the Workbench deal.
I would never feel that way on a Mac, for some reason. Strange.
-Shoerc@pai.UUCP (Eric Johnson) (11/28/88)
In article <1679@pur-phy>, sho@pur-phy (Sho Kuwamoto) writes: > In article <928@dogie.edu> terranova@vms.macc.wisc.edu (John Terranova) writes > <In article <2712@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>, mikem@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Mike Morton) writes... > < > <<As long as we're helping Apple redesign the Finder, I have a request: > << > <So do I. I love the Mac interface. Honest, I do. But, much as I hate > <to admit it, it is not perfect. > <Sometimes a command line is preferable. I > <would like a single command line window in the Finder. > <The window could function not too > <dissimilarly from the UNIX csh. > < > <It would come with standard commands (ls, cp, mv, more, jobs, ...). > <People can write their own routines that can be called from it with the > <same type of parameters as normal UNIX programs. > < > <Can you say "The Best of Both Worlds?" OK, how much flame am I going > <to get now? > > None, at least from this end. I agree, to some extent. An obvious > starting point would be the MPW shell. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't HyperCard have a command-line message box? This seems to me to be a more natural starting point. The box is smaller (1 line), acts as a window on the Mac desktop and would seem to fit more in line with the Mac way of doing things. A natural extension of HyperCard would be to eventually make the Finder a part of HyperCard, i.e., a user-configurable interface. Look at all the Finder "shells" that people write in HyperCard. I'm sure Apple has also looked at them. People want a method of configuring the Mac interface, e.g., adding help screens, linking options, etc. I have a feeling that in three years, the Finder will be a HyperCard stack. Anyone at Apple care to confirm or deny? > This sounds like just nitpicking, but let me put the situation this > way. I would greatly appreciate having a command line interface to > the Finder. So would I. The Mac Finder style of interface is great for pointing, clicking, et. al., but it breaks down in selecting. In the Finder, I can select a rectangular area of icons, one icon or all the icons in a window. The system breaks down, though, if I want to select all the .c files, for example. Unless I spend a good deal of time arranging all the .c files (as opposed to the .h, .txt, etc. files) into rectangles, I have trouble copying some items to back them up. Unfortunately, this is one area where MS-DOS beats the Mac (COPY *.C TARGET), as does Unix (cp *.c target). On the Mac, it is hard to select all the .c files in one swoop. Thus, there is a good use for a command line interpreter. On the other hand, I do NOT prefer MS-DOS to the Mac Finder interface. I just want some of the good features of a CLI interface to go along with the great features on the Mac. Note that the Amiga appears to use a windowing system (I think they call it Intuition) and have CLI windows on the Amiga "desktop". (No flames please, I own a Mac, NOT an Amiga and I don't want to get into a religious conflict. I see nothing wrong in recognizing good features of other machines.) > Maybe stick the CLI in a floating palette, like the > message box in Hypercard. I agree. Or maybe put it in a normal window, a window that follows all the Mac standards. > I'm a big believer in CLI's. In a lot of situations, it's easier to > use for the experienced user than a visual interface. > -Sho Just my $0.02 -Eric -- Eric F. Johnson | Phone +1 612-894-0313 | Are we Prime Automation,Inc | UUCP: bungia!pai!erc | having 12201 Wood Lake Drive | UUCP: sun!tundra!pai!erc | fun Burnsville, MN 55337 USA | DOMAIN: erc@pai.mn.org | yet?
levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin) (11/29/88)
In article <1679@pur-phy> sho@newton.physics.purdue.edu.UUCP (Sho Kuwamoto) writes: |cd. Second, MPW doesn't seem to have a path. I don't use MPW, so I If you mean in the unix sense of an environment variable used to identify directories containing commands, yes, it does. |under the Finder. I don't feel comfortable with the MPW shell for |some unknown reason. I'm probably just not used to it. One of the |reasons is that I don't like it is psychological. On a UNIX machine, |or egad! an MS-DOS machine, I feel like I am communicating with the |machine at a very low level. assembly:pascal::cli:windows. But under |MPW, I feel like I'm running a fancy text-editor which can interpret |my commands and pass them on to the Finder. Don't get me wrong, the |MPW shell is very powerful. It's just this feeling I have that I'm |not at the heart of the machine. Mostly you are as much at the heart of the machine with MPW as with the finder; you just don't see the picture that finder presents. There are commands to move, delete and copy files, etc.; when MPW launches (not under multifinder) you are returned there; etc. Finder and MPW Shell are both applications to the OS; neither is really closer in the sense you mean, I think. |-Sho /JBL UUCP: {backbone}!bbn!levin POTS: (617) 873-3463 INTERNET: levin@bbn.com
amanda@lts.UUCP (Amanda Walker) (11/30/88)
A few years ago there was a DA floating around called "RasNIX" that basically gave a mini shell interface that would let you copy files, and so on. If it still runs under the latest System/Finder, it might do a lot of what you want... -- Amanda Walker ...!uunet!lts!amanda / lts!amanda@uunet.uu.net InterCon, 11732 Bowman Green Drive, Reston, VA 22090 -- "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." -- N. Negroponte
barmar@think.COM (Barry Margolin) (11/30/88)
In article <296@pai.UUCP> erc@pai.UUCP (Eric Johnson) writes: >So would I. The Mac Finder style of interface is great for pointing, >clicking, et. al., but it breaks down in selecting. In the Finder, >I can select a rectangular area of icons, one icon or all the >icons in a window. The system breaks down, though, if I want to >select all the .c files, for example. Unless I spend a good deal >of time arranging all the .c files (as opposed to the .h, .txt, etc. files) >into rectangles, I have trouble copying some items to back them up. I realize it isn't automatic like typing *.c in MS-DOS and Unix, but what about shift-clicking? In this case you don't have to make sure that the files are all in the same rectangle, although you still have to manually click on all of them. It would be nice if the View By Kind finder option could be enhanced to do the kind of ordering that would be helpful in this case. Within a particular kind it would be nice if files could be further sorted. There should be a dialogue where the user can specify the sub-sorts. For the above purposes you'd like to sub-sort by the name suffix. Then you could easily shift-click all the .c files, since they would all be adjacent in the listing. Barry Margolin Thinking Machines Corp. barmar@think.com {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar