chris@umbc3.UMD.EDU (Chris Schanzle) (12/08/88)
In article <3167@cs.Buffalo.EDU> cohen@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Alexander Cohen) writes: > The Desktop Manager, an init which comes with the AppleShare Software, >they inform me, is *only* intended for use on AppleShare Servers, they say >it has never been adequately tested on user machines and they say that there >are certain anomalies in using it for any other purpose than for what it was >intended. I'm surprised Apple is STILL saying this BS about the Desktop Manager INIT (henceforth referred to as DM) not being supported. It has been around for quite some time (as long as AppleShare?) and it results in a tremendous (orders of magnitude) reduction in the time it takes to update the desktop. I suggest ANYONE with a hard disk who sees the dialog box "Updating Desktop..." for more than 5 seconds when copying a new application to give DM a try. > It speeds up access to desktop information because it replaces the >normal desktop file which uses the Resource Manager and replaces it with >"B-Trees". I can't remember the last time I have questioned a posting from someone at Apple, but the two slips on HFS and floppies makes me reconsider this person's credibility. Have you ever run Disk First Aid, typed COMMAND-S and then checked out an HFS volume (floppy or HD)? It does several checks of "B-Trees," which leads me to believe that the Mac OS is already using B-Trees, so the question still stands - how does DM do it's stuff? What is it about DM that Apple doesn't want us to be using it?!? I have not had any difficulties with DM with release 5.0 or release 6.0.2 (and probably initially with sys 4.1/5.3). > I was assured that future versions of the Finder will deal more >effectively with the desktop issue, but that for now its use at your own risk >if you want the speed up the Desktop Manager can provide. I'm curious what "risks" our file server is NOT in, compared to the risks that my own Mac+ COULD BE subjected to. Or, twist that the other way around - what "risks" could our file server be in if it's running software that "works only for one specific condition" (Appleshare)? > As for myself, I'm going to test it out... Do so. I have been using DM since two weeks after I bought my HD at the beginning of this year. I will not give it up!! I do offer a few suggestions, however: [what happens with DM: After copying DM into your system folder, reboot and you should find the two new files "Desktop DB" and "Desktop DF". They are invisible. (I'm still waiting for someone to cry "Virus! Virus!" on these files. :-)] You do not need your old Desktop file any longer; you may delete it. As mentioned before, if you boot off a floppy that does NOT have DM in the system folder, you will have that opportunity to get that CCU (Carbonated Caffeine Unit) while a new and complete Desktop file is created. This is bogus. What I have done is delete the (big) old Desktop file and copy the desktop file from a freshly formatted HFS disk to my HD. Now, when I boot off a floppy w/o DM, the Finder will "find" a desktop file and have no need to recreate one. Naturally, at this time w/o DM, most documents will not have their application's ICONs linked. That's OK, since I usually only boot off floppy for special temporary reasons (e.g., file recovery, make backups, or when I just can't deal with all those nifty INIT's). Without DM installed on bootup, when you open folders on your HD that contain applications, they will be added to your "fake" Desktop file. This is basically the same thing as when you copy a new application or rebuild the desktop: applications are searched and their Finder attributes (icons, type/creator links to data files) are added to the Desktop file. In summary, if you don't want your old Desktop file to take much space, don't let the Finder "see" your applications when you are NOT running with DM. Note: I have not seen any conflicts with DM's desktop files and keeping the old Desktop file around. In fact, I have not had any situation which I can specifically attribute DM for crashes or other Mac strange behavior. The Desktop Manager is (was?) a terrific opportunity for some third- party to market a functionally equivalent INIT. As you have probably read here, Apple has plans to do something about the Desktop file. Whatever they do, I hope it maintains compatibility with Desktop Manager! (just kidding...it should be BETTER! Save Comments!) But when will this come about? System 7.0? Due when? With what new features? [Do you feel it getting warm in here? Furnace must have come on...] Reflecting on 6.0.2: I can't tell you how incredible I think the Notification Manager is...and how about that Sound Manager, gang? Oh, and those new dialog boxes indicating which drive the Mac II is formatting -- as if it makes a difference at that point -- makes my mouse run in circles on it's pad. Worthy of a major release? I'm sorry, but I'm pretty disappointed with Apple's releases of system software since 5.0. MultiFinder was big stuff -- certainly worthy of a new release number. Bug fixes and/or small enhancements should be 5.1, 5.2, etc. Release 6.0 was a letdown (actually, I never let the 6.0 disks come NEAR my CMS SD60 hard drive much less actually TRY it.) OK, this is getting off the subject, but I really wanted to express my feelings...maybe even spark a new discussion! [Brrrrr....getting chilly again!] Personal details: Mac+, 1Meg, CMS SD60 external HD (still 3.2q drivers), System Release 6.0.2. Inits: Dimmer, hierDA, SoundMaster 1.2, Autoblak, CPSSaveDeletes, Menu Clock3, MFKeys, MoveOver, Rear Window, RWatcher, SFScrollINIT II SFVol INIT 1.5, Suitecase II, Macintalk, and of course, Desktop Manager. 23 yrs, 5' 10", ~150lbs, single, available, relatively normal personality, anticipate CMSC degree next Spring and megabucks shortly thereafter. -- ARPA : chris@umbc3.UMD.EDU BITNET : chris@umbc : nerwin!umbc3 Speed it up. Keep it simple. Ship it on time. -- Bill Atkinson
bob@accuvax.nwu.edu (Bob Hablutzel) (12/08/88)
>> It speeds up access to desktop information because it replaces the >>normal desktop file which uses the Resource Manager and replaces it with >>"B-Trees". >I can't remember the last time I have questioned a posting from someone >at Apple, but the two slips on HFS and floppies makes me reconsider this >person's credibility. Have you ever run Disk First Aid, typed COMMAND-S >and then checked out an HFS volume (floppy or HD)? It does several checks >of "B-Trees," which leads me to believe that the Mac OS is already using >B-Trees, so the question still stands - how does DM do it's stuff? The MacOS _does_ already use B-Trees, but not for the desktop. Rather, the extends file (which maps out where on a HFS disk a file resides) and the catalog file (which contains information about the file) are B-Trees. The Desktop file, however, is still a normal resource file, which means the resource manager bottlenecks apply. I guess what the DeskTop Manager INIT does is replace the Desktop resource file with a Desktop B-Tree file, which would be quite a bit faster, I think. Bob Hablutzel BOB@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (12/09/88)
In article <1422@umbc3.UMD.EDU> chris@umbc3.UMD.EDU (Chris "Zorf" Schanzle) writes: >In article <3167@cs.Buffalo.EDU> cohen@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Alexander Cohen) writes: >>they inform me, is *only* intended for use on AppleShare Servers, they say >>it has never been adequately tested on user machines and they say that there > >I'm surprised Apple is STILL saying this BS about the Desktop Manager >INIT (henceforth referred to as DM) not being supported. It has been >around for quite some time (as long as AppleShare?) and it results in We say this stuff because it is true. The DM has only been tested on AppleShare server volumes. It has not been tested on user volumes. That's a fact. As for anomalies, you mention quite a few of them in your message. All of these are things that would be unacceptable in a user version of the DM. >of "B-Trees," which leads me to believe that the Mac OS is already using >B-Trees, so the question still stands - how does DM do it's stuff? The HFS uses B-Trees to maintain the volume directory. The Finder normally maintains its information in the Desktop resource file, and the Resource Manager doesn't use B-Trees. (Which causes the time delay when the Desktop File grows.) >What is it about DM that Apple doesn't want us to be using it?!? I Apple can't encourage people to use DM in an untested configuration. The fact that you have to offer some hints of how to use the DM means it is not suitable for general use. >way around - what "risks" could our file server be in if it's running >software that "works only for one specific condition" (Appleshare)? The DM is part of the AppleShare server software, and has been tested in that environment. The fact that it hasn't been tested in other situations, doesn't make it risky to use on the server. >As mentioned before, if you boot off a floppy that does NOT have DM in >the system folder, you will have that opportunity to get that CCU >(Carbonated Caffeine Unit) while a new and complete Desktop file is >created. This is bogus. This is another anomaly. >and have no need to recreate one. Naturally, at this time w/o DM, >most documents will not have their application's ICONs linked. That's >OK, It might be OK for you, but I don't think this is acceptable behavior. >Reflecting on 6.0.2: I can't tell you how incredible I think the >Notification Manager is...and how about that Sound Manager, gang? > >Worthy of a major release? I'm sorry, but I'm pretty disappointed >with Apple's releases of system software since 5.0. MultiFinder was You may not appreciate the features of System 6.0, but I bet a lot of other people do. You also forgot the several pages of bugs that were fixed in that release. These might not be very noticeable, but they make a big difference. You aren't required to upgrade to a new release if you don't want to. Of course, you won't be able to take advantage of the Sound Manager if you don't. >Personal details: > Mac+, 1Meg, CMS SD60 external HD (still 3.2q drivers), System Release 6.0.2. > Inits: Dimmer, hierDA, SoundMaster 1.2, Autoblak, CPSSaveDeletes, That's interesting. Why take up space on your system with Dimmer, which only works on a Mac II? -- Larry Rosenstein, Object Specialist Apple Computer, Inc. 20525 Mariani Ave, MS 46-B Cupertino, CA 95014 AppleLink:Rosenstein1 domain:lsr@Apple.COM UUCP:{sun,voder,nsc,decwrl}!apple!lsr
kaufman@polya.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman) (12/09/88)
In article <299@internal.Apple.COM> lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) writes: >We say this stuff because it is true. The DM has only been tested on >AppleShare server volumes. It has not been tested on user volumes. That's >a fact. OK, folks. I am not part of Apple, but <I> have tested DM on user volumes. It works. OK? True, if you have multiple hard disks, you can't unmount them. Floppies are OK. For the TIME BEING, I am willing to put up with the anomalies to get functionality. An anomalous operation is better than no operation at all. Marc Kaufman (kaufman@polya.stanford.edu)
lgeorge@melbcae.edu.au (12/10/88)
In article <299@internal.Apple.COM>, lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) writes: > In article <1422@umbc3.UMD.EDU> chris@umbc3.UMD.EDU (Chris "Zorf" Schanzle) writes: >>In article <3167@cs.Buffalo.EDU> cohen@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Alexander Cohen) writes: > >>Personal details: >> Mac+, 1Meg, CMS SD60 external HD (still 3.2q drivers), System Release 6.0.2. >> Inits: Dimmer, hierDA, SoundMaster 1.2, Autoblak, CPSSaveDeletes, > > That's interesting. Why take up space on your system with Dimmer, which > only works on a Mac II? > > -- > Larry Rosenstein, Object Specialist > Apple Computer, Inc. 20525 Mariani Ave, MS 46-B Cupertino, CA 95014 > AppleLink:Rosenstein1 domain:lsr@Apple.COM > UUCP:{sun,voder,nsc,decwrl}!apple!lsr I used to use Dimmer on my SE, but I found it had problems with some software. I personally prefer Fade To Black [a recent arrival on comp.binaries.mac] as I have used it for a while and it is much quicker and better. But I couldnt get the da to work, so I just use the Fkey and the automatic fade process. George Stamatopoulos La Trobe University - Lincoln School of Health Sciences Melbourne Victoria