c60c-4bj@web-4d.berkeley.edu (Rob Pfile) (01/15/89)
Maybe someone with a Mac II internal 80 Meg hard disk can help me out here. I would like to get a bigger hard disk for my Mac II. I currently have the 40Meg internal disk shipped with my II. I have an ad here for a Quantum Q280 for $495. I need to know if this is the same as the disk shipped with Mac II from the factory. I am only concerned with this since if it is indeed the same, I should be able to use Apple's HD Setup program to format the disk, right? I am just paranoid since I have had a lot of trouble in the past getting home-made disks formatted. Also, what is a practial upper bound on hard disk size for Macs today? I know that the desktop file blows up around 190K or so. Does anyone know what is the largest practical disk size? If I can get away with it, I'd like to go beyond 80megs... Thanks Rob Pfile c60c-4bj@web.berkeley.edu ...!ucbvax!web!c60c-4bj
Ilan@cup.portal.com (ilan - rabinowitz) (01/16/89)
1090.3.8755.1 Apple HD80SC... Quantum ??? 1/14/89 16:23 c60c-4bj@web-4d.berkeley.edu (Rob Pfile) writes: > I have an ad here for a Quantum Q280 for $495. I need >to know if this is the same as the disk shipped with Mac II >from the factory. If the SCSI controller on the Quantum is not similar to Apple's controller, Apple's HD formatter might not work at all, or produce some unexpected disk problems. For example, my internal HD80 from Apple works with Apples' formatter, but when I try the same formatter with my external 80 MEG Quantum from Jasmine, I experience various problems once I boot up and try to use that disk (although the disk is "somewhat" useable). - Ilan Rabinowitz - Ilan@cup.portal.com
ephraim@think.COM (Ephraim Vishniac) (01/16/89)
In article <19105@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60c-4bj@web-4d.berkeley.edu (Rob Pfile) writes: > I have an ad here for a Quantum Q280 for $495. I need >to know if this is the same as the disk shipped with Mac II >from the factory. At one time (about 1.5 years ago), Q280s shipped by Apple had a special ROM. I don't know if this is still true or if Apple's changes have been integrated into the production ROM. Try comparing the version numbers marked on the ROMs if you can get a good look at both varieties. > Also, what is a practial upper bound on hard disk size for >Macs today? I know that the desktop file blows up around 190K or so. >Does anyone know what is the largest practical disk size? If I can >get away with it, I'd like to go beyond 80megs... This depends on your style of usage. If you're a software "collector" with hundreds of different applications on your disk, your Desktop file will swell quickly. You can avoid this with partitioning software and careful distribution of the applications. In my office, most of the disk (over 200 meg on a 320 meg disk) is taken up with text files for a document retrieval system. The Desktop remains agreeably small. Ephraim Vishniac ephraim@think.com Thinking Machines Corporation / 245 First Street / Cambridge, MA 02142-1214 "Arlo Guthrie, it seems, has found what he was looking for: God, and the Macintosh." (Boston Globe)
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (01/17/89)
I was under the impression that "Apple SCSI" is not the same as
"REAL-WORLD SCSI", just like "Apple Nubus" is not the same as
"REAL-WORLD Nubus" (notice a pattern?) I don't see the point of
adopting a standard, if you pervert it for your own evil
purposes....Apple!
Anyway, my Quantum CMS-80 drive ALSO has a unique ROM chip, written by
CMS, to implement "APPLE SCSI". I suspect that if you buy a generic
SCSI drive, it won't work.
Don Gillies {uiucdcs!gillies} U of Illinoisroot@radar.UUCP (root) (01/17/89)
In article <35422@think.UUCP> ephraim@think.com (Ephraim Vishniac) writes: >In article <19105@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60c-4bj@web-4d.berkeley.edu (Rob Pfile) writes: >> I have an ad here for a Quantum Q280 for $495. I need >>to know if this is the same as the disk shipped with Mac II > >At one time (about 1.5 years ago), Q280s shipped by Apple had a >special ROM. I don't know if this is still true or if Apple's changes >have been integrated into the production ROM. Try comparing the >version numbers marked on the ROMs if you can get a good look at both >varieties. The generic Quantum Q280 is the same as Apple's 80SC, except for the on-board EPROM. A Q280 I purchased formatted fine using Apple's HD Setup, but wouldn't work properly with the System software. When I swapped the EPROM from my Apple 80SC into the generic drive, it worked fine. Both drives had EPROMS with Quantum part numbers on them. When I called Quantum to order another EPROM, I was told the EPROM from the Apple drive with the Quantum part number was proprietary. Very tricky indeed! Note that there are third party formatting programs that will work correctly with generic Q280 drives. Donn S. Fishbein, MD, PhD (N3DNT)
falken@caen.engin.umich.edu (David R Falkenburg) (01/18/89)
In article <8400055@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > > I was under the impression that "Apple SCSI" is not the same as > "REAL-WORLD SCSI", just like "Apple Nubus" is not the same as > "REAL-WORLD Nubus" (notice a pattern?) I don't see the point of > adopting a standard, if you pervert it for your own evil > purposes....Apple! > > Anyway, my Quantum CMS-80 drive ALSO has a unique ROM chip, written by > CMS, to implement "APPLE SCSI". I suspect that if you buy a generic > SCSI drive, it won't work. > > Don Gillies {uiucdcs!gillies} U of Illinois Apple SCSI really is just single initiator SCSI. I've had no problems getting such "normal" SCSI drives from MaxTor, CDC, etc. to work on a Mac (it's a bigger pain for a Sun 3/60 though!) What your problem might be is a lack of real driver software for the device. Drives DO differ, manufacturers DO make mistakes. One of the major reasons for custom ROMs is to implement special commands that the installation software can use to detect if it's formatting a drive it is supposed to. (e.g. Rodime's Driver only works on a 1400RX and Jasmine driveware only works on a Direct Drive 140, but both drives are the same Rodime RO-5000s mechanism!) -dave -- Dave Falkenburg @ University of Michigan Computer Aided Engineering Network ARPA: falken@caen.engin.umich.edu UUCP: umix!caen.engin.umich.edu!falken
kaufman@polya.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman) (01/18/89)
In article <8400055@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >I was under the impression that "Apple SCSI" is not the same as >"REAL-WORLD SCSI", just like "Apple Nubus" is not the same as >"REAL-WORLD Nubus" (notice a pattern?) I don't see the point of >adopting a standard, if you pervert it for your own evil >purposes....Apple! Not quite fair. Apple SCSI is a ("proper" [sic]) subset of SCSI. It doesn't (currently) support some extensions, such as disconnect/reselect. In general, though, any SCSI device can be driven on the bus. I HAVE noticed that disk sellers often do something "unique" in the ROMs with respect to INQUIRY commands, or supported SCSI commands (Supermac used to use a non-standard "Write" command), so that the formatter/manager programs could not be used to initialize other drives, or so that a program (e.g. LaserSpool.df) could tell if it was being run from a certain manufacturer's drive. I am not sure just why they do it, unless it is from a certain egocentric view that, somehow, their driver software is "better" than others, and by god, if you are going to use their driver it had better be on their disk! Seems silly to me, but I don't have to report to the Chairman of the Board. Marc Kaufman (kaufman@polya.stanford.edu)
swerling@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ace Swerling) (01/19/89)
standard SCSI is that Apple uses a 25 pin port while the standard calls for a 50 pin port. Apple claims not to need the extra 25 pins, so they're not going to use them. Recently, a bunch of computer manufacturers got together to discuss the standard. Apple, surprisingly, was not one of the first organizations to attend. They got their act together later though and seem to be working towards more standardization. Maybe we'll see more standards coming out of Apple... Nahh. ;-)
billkatt@sol.engin.umich.edu (Steve Bollinger) (01/19/89)
In article <40f1d90b.10342@fir.engin.umich.edu> swerling@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ace Swerling) writes: >standard SCSI is that Apple uses a 25 pin port while the standard >calls for a 50 pin port. Apple claims not to need the extra 25 >pins, so they're not going to use them. Recently, a bunch of >computer manufacturers got together to discuss the standard. >Apple, surprisingly, was not one of the first organizations to >attend. They got their act together later though and seem to be >working towards more standardization. Maybe we'll see more >standards coming out of Apple... Nahh. ;-) In standard SCSI half the wires are tied to ground. Apple just removed these wires and substitutes one ground wire. Apple saved a lot of space that way. They are used to help supress interference. However, most of us don't use anywhere near the maximum length of SCSI which is well over 100 feet (1000 ft?). The signals are carried through the cables, they just merge to one ground at the connector. The Laserwriter IINTX uses a "standard connector", as well as all Apple hard drives. I use standard connector in quotes because it is no more standard than the 25 pin DB. Look at the back of a Sun some time, their connector is no more standard than the DB-25. +----------------------+----------------------------------------------------+ | Steve Bollinger | Internet: billkatt@caen.engin.umich.edu | | 4297 Sulgrave Dr. +------+---------------------------------------------+ | Swartz Creek, Mi. 48473 | "My employer doesn't take my opinion any | +-----------------------------+ more seriously than you do." | | "You remember the IIe, it +---------------------------------------------+ | was the machine Apple made before they decided people didn't need | | machines with big screens, color, or slots." | | - Harry Anderson (from NBC's Night Court) | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
holland@m2.csc.ti.com (Fred Hollander) (01/24/89)
In article <8400055@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >I was under the impression that "Apple SCSI" is not the same as >"REAL-WORLD SCSI", just like "Apple Nubus" is not the same as >"REAL-WORLD Nubus" (notice a pattern?) I don't see the point of >adopting a standard, if you pervert it for your own evil >purposes....Apple! Can you back this up with some facts? What exactly are the differences between "Real-World" Nubus and "Apple" Nubus? Fred Hollander Computer Science Center Texas Instruments, Inc. holland%ti-csl@csnet-rela The above statements are my own and not representative of Texas Instruments.
c60c-4bj@web-4d.berkeley.edu (Rob Pfile) (01/28/89)
A few weeks ago, I posted an article in reference to the Quantum Q280 drive, and if in fact it is the same drive that is shipped with 80MB Mac II's and IIx's. Most people replied that this was in fact the same disk, but one person informed me that the drive that comes in the Mac II is the Q80S or the Pro80S (same drive, I think). Yet another person has told me that the Q80S on board the Mac II has a custom apple ROM, and when he called Quantum, they would not supply the part. (of course, how could it ever be so easy ???) I believe this different ROM caused HD Setup to ignore the disk, refusing to format it. So the question remains: I buy random SCSI drive X. It is not formattable with HD setup. Do programs like LaCie's SilverLining have drivers for all of these drives? On a side note, I know that ST277N's are formattable with the shareware SF&I program... Another person was using SilverLining to run 8 of these Q280 drives as 2 320MB volumes!! Wow! I assume this means that SilverLining can format and install drivers for at least the Q80S or the Q280 drive. so much for the techincal stuff. The price from Computer Surplus Store was $495.00. This compares with $799 from Hard Disks International for a Q80S. The Q80S is supposed to have a higher MTBF and is slightly faster (caching?). The catch is that CSS sells, as one might expect from the name, _surplus_ parts. I was mislead by other hard drive listings that were listed as "refurb" and assumed since the Q280 did not say this, that it was new. I suppose, then, that these disks are used. I called, and CSS disavows any knowledge of the drive's history. Who knows if it was owned by a little old lady, or run by some company who beat the daylights out of it? Their policy is that you have a 30-day warranty, and you may return it for store credit if you are not satisfied. If you want your money back, you are subject to a 10% "reshelving fee" (come on!...) That's about it. I have no connection with HDI or CSS. Simply reporting the facts... In summary, these disks are used. I guess you might have to take your chances if you want to save the bucks. Does anyone know of a sure-fire way to format and install a driver for any random drive? Is there one cure-all application? Thanks. Thanks to all of you who replied thru mail and over the net. The help is greatly appreciated. Rob Pfile c60c-4bj@web.berkeley.edu ...!ucbvax!web!c60c-4bj This account will die on 3 February. I should be back shortly with a class account and a named account. Thanks.
dudevoir@isl.Stanford.EDU (Glen P. Dudevoir) (01/28/89)
In article <40f20383.a590@mag.engin.umich.edu> billkatt@caen.engin.umich.edu (Steve Bollinger) writes: >In article <40f1d90b.10342@fir.engin.umich.edu> swerling@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ace Swerling) writes: >>standard SCSI is that Apple uses a 25 pin port while the standard >>calls for a 50 pin port. Apple claims not to need the extra 25 >>pins, so they're not going to use them. Recently, a bunch of >>computer manufacturers got together to discuss the standard. >... >as well as all Apple hard drives. I use standard connector in quotes because >it is no more standard than the 25 pin DB. Look at the back of a Sun some >time, their connector is no more standard than the DB-25. > Sorry, Sun uses a 50 pin connector. I don't know if it is called this but for lack of a better name I would call it a DB-50; it has the same shape as a DB-25. Glen X
kaufman@polya.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman) (01/28/89)
In article <382@isl.stanford.edu> dudevoir@isl.UUCP (Glen P. Dudevoir) writes: ->it is no more standard than the 25 pin DB. Look at the back of a Sun some ->time, their connector is no more standard than the DB-25. >Sorry, Sun uses a 50 pin connector. I don't know if it is called this >but for lack of a better name I would call it a DB-50; it has the same >shape as a DB-25. I believe the connector is a DA-50. A DB-50 would have 50 pins. Marc Kaufman (kaufman@polya.stanford.edu)
krein@dg.dg.com (Todd Krein) (01/31/89)
In article <40f1d90b.10342@fir.engin.umich.edu> swerling@caen.engin.umich.edu (Ace Swerling) writes: >standard SCSI is that Apple uses a 25 pin port while the standard >calls for a 50 pin port. Apple claims not to need the extra 25 >pins, so they're not going to use them. Recently, a bunch of If I'm not mistaken (big If), the "extra" 25 wires are all shielding ground connections. You only need them for noise control. As for Apple not attending the SCSI convention, there was an interesting article in MacWeek about it. Apparently, no one at Apple know who was suppost to go, so no one did, until they read in MacWeek that they had been demoted in standing in the SCSI commitee! todd krein krein@dg.uucp
redman@zaphod.ncsa.uiuc.edu (02/02/89)
There is at least one difference that I am aware of. Apple added an interupt for each card to the NuBus. The reason that this was done was so that simple cards, not capable of becoming bus master, can generate an interupt to the host indicating a need for service. This eleminates the need for a card to become bus master in order to initiate a data transfer over the NuBus. Fairly reasonable, in my opinion. Certainly Apple is pushing to make their implementation of NuBus a standard.