aa0s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Adel Talaat Assaad) (02/01/89)
Hi, I just received the first APDAlog from the "NEW & AMENDED" APDA run by Apple, and boy did I dislike what I saw. They charge membership, and THEN charge RETAIL for everything. Some prices went up 125% (TechNotes) and the shipping and handling charge makes it sound like you should have D. Trump's fortune to deal with them. They specifically make you state that you are repesenting yourself as a "developer of computer software and/or hardware with substantial experience in computer programming (which I do) and in USING PROGRAMMER TOOLS AND UTILITIES (which I don't want to be)." Say it ain't so Apple: Say you are not EXPLICITLY excluding the amateurs and advanced amateurs who do not wish to have any DIRECT support but enjoyed all the convenience of what APDA used to represent! Opinion:The unnecessary (and unimpressive) glitz and articles in the APDAlog which now tries to pause as a "communication channel" reflects such a corporate-oriented snobbery, sort of telling you don't bother to come in touch with us unless you have BIIIG plans and think really BIIIG. (Incidentally, I think Sue Espinosa's article about "why the take over" didn't have any substance to an ordinary human. Their pre-release software will have the same bugs, the manuals will not be any more legible, and their prices aren't any cheaper. So what's so "efficient or beautiful" about the move.) Oh well! I guess it had to happen one day. I feel like I now have to deal with "BIG BLUE" and "BIG PLATINUM". But I don't! And I won't glorify a company which dosn't pay attention to me. (much less give them $20.00 a year to cover "their costs", when they are actually making a hefty 39% profit on every Inside mac book they sell!!!) How does everbody out there feel about this? I'd like to know, since I could be overreacting to a bad week or something. Incidentally, will the new TechAlliance cover the gap, i.e. cater to the needs of amateurs who do not wish to have any "representations", including providing them with developement tools, etc...? Adel Assaad CMU, PGH PA.
ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (02/01/89)
In article <sXtTiQy00WB3IbtGJS@andrew.cmu.edu>, aa0s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Adel Talaat Assaad) writes... > >They specifically make you state that you are repesenting yourself as >a "developer of computer software and/or hardware with substantial >experience in computer programming (which I do) and in USING >PROGRAMMER TOOLS AND UTILITIES (which I don't want to be)." >Incidentally, will the new TechAlliance cover the gap, i.e. cater to >the needs of amateurs who do not wish to have any "representations", >including providing them with developement tools, etc...? I think the agreement reproduced above is substantially the same as the old APDA agreement. Basically I think both APDA's don't want people calling up and expecting support for products which may be beta and/or difficult to use. Got my new MacTech journal. The mag seems OK, but the product offering is not all that large. But then again, they're just starting out. Perhaps we should give both APDA and MacTech a little while to get settled. If the new APDA is indeed "pricing out" the amateur, I think we should let Apple know that that is not at all cool. But let's see what happens. Robert ------ ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu ------ generic disclaimer: all my opinions are mine
folta@tove.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) (02/01/89)
I posted a similar message to CompuServe. I haven't logged in yet to check it. But the DOUBLED their prices! In fact, it is cheaper to get stuff as a student (ex. System 6.0), rather than buy a manual-less 6.0.2 upgrade from APDA. In fact, after you pay Fed Ex full-price shipping, you aren't but about $7 better-off than retail! Wayne Folta (folta@tove.umd.edu 128.8.128.42)
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark Johnson) (02/01/89)
In article <sXtTiQy00WB3IbtGJS@andrew.cmu.edu> aa0s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Adel Talaat Assaad) writes: >Apple, and boy did I dislike what I saw. They charge membership, and THEN >charge RETAIL for everything. Some prices went up 125% (TechNotes) and >the shipping and handling charge makes it sound like you should have Okay, I decided to take a look at the new APDA catalog and I too am a bit perturbed. I am the one who edits the Notes and I don't like to see the work we put out and information we want out for free to be used as a profit center. I've voiced my complaints and will resort to posting the actual source files so you can print them all exactly as they come out on paper if it is absolutely necessary. For anyone out there who is upset about the pricing of these things, I suggest you let APDA know about it. Send your complaints, via the net, to... APDA@APPLELINK.APPLE.COM and let them know your displeasure. Thanks for your support. This message, of course, is not endorsed or acknowledged by my employer. Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: m.johnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
mcdonald@fornax.UUCP (Ken Mcdonald) (02/01/89)
In article <25099@apple.Apple.COM>, mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark Johnson) writes: > In article <sXtTiQy00WB3IbtGJS@andrew.cmu.edu> aa0s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Adel Talaat Assaad) writes: > ...(Stuff about high prices, incl. VERY high technote prices)... > Okay, I decided to take a look at the new APDA catalog and I too am a bit > perturbed. I am the one who edits the Notes and I don't like to see the > work we put out and information we want out for free to be used as a profit > center. I've voiced my complaints and will resort to posting the actual > source files so you can print them all exactly as they come out on paper if ... > and let them know your displeasure. Thanks for your support. > > This message, of course, is not endorsed or acknowledged by my employer. > > > > Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: m.johnson > Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com > Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson > Thank you for YOUR support, Mark. I seriously considered abandoning the Apple line of products altogether after the shoddy tricks Apple has pulled recently. Your posting goes (some ways) to restoring my faith in human nature, or at least the spirit of Apple. Apple has contiuously and without hesitation messed up everything it has done concerning APDA. First, they appointed some bozo little operation working out of a hole-in-the-wall (I know--I've been to the original APDA shipping centre) as a monopolistic distributor of a bunch of very important Apple stuff. I mean, the old APDA was affiliated with (part of) a company that initialized single-sided disks in bulk, and sold them as double-sided, and for all I know, used those same disks to ship it's software. Then, when that bozo little operation finally started getting it's act together (and they had REALLY improved since the formation of APDA, and were continuing to improve), Apple moves in, takes it over, and raises all the prices on what are supposed to be accessible items (such as the tech notes-- I guess the current paper shortage, coupled with the falling US dollar, has compelled Apple to invest heavily in the pulp & paper industry to guarantee is supply, right? :-( ). I don't care about things like MPW, that is a product and Apple should charge whatever it wants to for it, but those tech note prices just about made me choke, especially since I now want the paper technotes (they would go so well with the looseleaf Inside Mac). Then there is the matter of the new Certified Developer program. I don't mind Apple charging what it costs to maintain the program, but I don't need $600/year of support! Or if I do, I'd prefer to pay for it as I get it, not pay one flat sum assuming I will use that kind of service. Making it more difficult for developers to get hardware at a discount is also a stupid move--by their nature, developers need the latest (or in fact all) of the Mac CPUs, just so they can get their software verified on those machines. If apple closes out this opportunity, many small developers will be unable to do the amount of testing they might want to, resulting in buggy software, and in the long run, a marketplace that is distrustful of the Macintosh system. (And remember, small developers tend to come up with the really innovative utilities which really do need to be tested on all machines, because of their low-level complexity.) Sure, Apple needs to be able to screen out people who just want a discount on the hardware, but surely someone who can point to a 300k program with an obvious market niche and say, "I did that," should be taken seriously, without the need for a $600/ year initiation fee. Apple seems to have adopted a policy of purposely alienating its small developers. This is dangerous. Lots of the best ideas come from these small developers. They also tend to be the best programmers, and are quite capable of taking their skills elsewere and prospering, if they decide Apple has made their working environment too hostile. IBM and Microsoft are finally delivering products that can challenge the Apple line and in some ways surpass it, and if Apple drives its devoted coterie of small developers to the IBM world, it will have time to regret, but not retract, its actions. 'Nuff said. Ken McDonald {...!ubc-cs!mcdonald@fornax.uucp} .
drc@claris.com (Dennis Cohen) (02/01/89)
In article <sXtTiQy00WB3IbtGJS@andrew.cmu.edu> aa0s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Adel Talaat Assaad) writes: >I just received the first APDAlog from the "NEW & AMENDED" APDA run by >Apple, and boy did I dislike what I saw. They charge membership, and THEN >charge RETAIL for everything. Some prices went up 125% (TechNotes) and >the shipping and handling charge makes it sound like you should have >D. Trump's fortune to deal with them. > ... >Opinion:The unnecessary (and unimpressive) glitz and articles in the >APDAlog which now tries to pause as a "communication channel" reflects >such a corporate-oriented snobbery, sort of telling you don't bother >to come in touch with us unless you have BIIIG plans and think really >BIIIG. (Incidentally, I think Sue Espinosa's article about "why the >take over" didn't have any substance to an ordinary human. Their >pre-release software will have the same bugs, the manuals will not be >any more legible, and their prices aren't any cheaper. So what's so >"efficient or beautiful" about the move.) > ... >How does everbody out there feel about this? >I'd like to know, since I could be overreacting to a bad week or something. > OK, but first I want to say (in addition to my standard disclaimer at the end of my posting) that the following opinions are mine and I have no idea whether they are shared, embraced, or derided by my employer. The first thing I want to say is, "I told you so." Early last year there were "bash APDA" threads both here and on CompuServe and I got my head bit off on both services for saying that APDA wasn't so bad. I never claimed that there wasn't room for improvement, but felt that they did a pretty fair job all things considered. I even commented that people would be sorry if it got taken "in-house" again. This is starting to happen. Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not criticizing Sue or the other people at Apple who are involved in APDA as they are good folks and I think that they will really try to do a good job. I just don't think that the corporation will give them the latitude to do so. Small organizations (like APDA) that are part of a large corporation (like Apple) tend to be less responsive and efficient than an independent organization of the same size just because they have to pass everything they do past umpteen levels of bureaucracy for approval. The loss of discounts on things like books is a pain, especially when you consider the shipping charges (they're higher now too due to using FedEx). Fortunately, there are places like Computer Literacy here in the Valley, so I can get the books at the same retail price and save the shipping charge -- others probably won't be so lucky. About the only real efficiency I think we'll see gained is a few days between the release of a new version of MPW (or some other Apple SW product) and its availability from APDA. There will also be less finger-pointing as to the culprit in a delay as Apple will only be able to point at one or another of its own extremities rather than a third party (who points back at them). Dennis Cohen Claris Corp. ------------ Disclaimer: Any opinions expressed above are _MINE_! (And I really mean that disclaimer)
wrp@biochsn.acc.virginia.edu (William R. Pearson) (02/02/89)
In article <sXtTiQy00WB3IbtGJS@andrew.cmu.edu> aa0s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Adel Talaat Assaad) writes: >Hi, > ]I just received the first APDAlog from the "NEW & AMENDED" APDA run by ]Apple, and boy did I dislike what I saw. They charge membership, and THEN ]charge RETAIL for everything. Some prices went up 125% (TechNotes) and ]the shipping and handling charge makes it sound like you should have ]D. Trump's fortune to deal with them. ] I was also very impressed by the new APDA prices (LIST or greater). I noticed that the new APDA wants $175 for the Lightspeed 'C' compiler, while the old APDA (TechAlliance) wants $120. I joined APDA for the discounts, as much as anything, and Apple is not providing them. I guess it's time to send a check to Techalliance. Since I have their blurb in front of me, the address is: TechAlliance 290 SW 43rd St. Renton, WA 98055 If you are not already an APDA member, it looks like membership is $26.00/year. If you are an APDA member, you probably know more than I do. Bill Pearson
labc-4da@web-2e.berkeley.edu (Bob Heiney) (02/02/89)
*** FLAME ON *** I'm an amateur programmer, and I've been with MPW since it was beta at APDA. I paid $178.00 for the original beta release, and it was an incredible buy; I got a powerful shell environment, a super assembler, and a great Pascal compiler. I bought IM through APDA at a discount. I felt encouraged and supported as a non-professional programmer. Today, it costs about $400 to purchase a similarily configured MPW 3.0. Yes, I realize it's better than MPW 1.0. But, how many amateurs are going to shell out $400? It would have been too steep for me. I'm very disturbed by the seeming greed of Apple with APDA products. Amateur developers sometimes go professional. Surely the more programs that are written for the Mac, the better off the Mac is. Therefore, Apple should be actively supporting developers by offering Inside Macintosh, MPW, and all other Apple technical resources either at cost or at a *small* profit. It is utterly silly that I can buy IM V1 for about $19 in Berkeley, and have to pay $24.95 plus shipping and handling to get the same book from an organization purporting to *aid* developers. So come on Apple, don't forget your roots. Don't forget Steve Wozniak. Don't tell me that Apple has to be a beast like IBM. Don't tell me that innovation like Wozniak's can't succeed anymore. That spirit is out there still, and Apple can gain by encouraging it, just as Apple can lose by pricing amateurs out of the best development system for the Mac. *** FLAME OFF ***
sbb@esquire.UUCP (Stephen B. Baumgarten) (02/02/89)
In article <1681@tank.uchicago.edu> ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >Got my new MacTech journal. The mag seems OK, but the product offering >is not all that large. But then again, they're just starting out. Perhaps >we should give both APDA and MacTech a little while to get settled. If >the new APDA is indeed "pricing out" the amateur, I think we should let >Apple know that that is not at all cool. But let's see what happens. APDA has been "pricing out" the amateur for some time now. Remember when TML Pascal II started shipping? You could buy the whole package, including MPW 3.0 shell (with all the utilities, manuals, etc.), for $200 or thereabouts. Meanwhile, APDA was selling MPW 3.0 by itself for at least that much. When asked why Apple was setting such exhorbitant prices, the response was something like "we have no control over third-party pricing". Remember, these are the people who charge you a buck (at least) per item for shipping, when anybody in North America can pick up their phone, call UPS, and have them pick up and deliver an enormous box anywhere for about 6 bucks. My only hope is that having Apple run things will at least add a certain degree of professionalism to the organization. Or, barring that, at least a new toner cartridge for the Canon Personal Copier they use to "publish" the Tech Notes.... 1/2 :-) -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." cmcl2!esquire!sbb | esquire!sbb@cmcl2.nyu.edu | - David Letterman
bergman@odin.m2c.org (Michael Bergman) (02/02/89)
In article <sXtTiQy00WB3IbtGJS@andrew.cmu.edu> aa0s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Adel Talaat Assaad) writes: >I just received the first APDAlog from the "NEW & AMENDED" APDA run by >Apple, and boy did I dislike what I saw. They charge membership, and THEN >charge RETAIL for everything. Some prices went up 125% (TechNotes) and >the shipping and handling charge makes it sound like you should have >D. Trump's fortune to deal with them. > >They specifically make you state that you are repesenting yourself as >a "developer of computer software and/or hardware with substantial >experience in computer programming (which I do) and in USING >PROGRAMMER TOOLS AND UTILITIES (which I don't want to be)." > >Say it ain't so Apple: Say you are not EXPLICITLY excluding the >amateurs and advanced amateurs who do not wish to have any DIRECT >support but enjoyed all the convenience of what APDA used to >represent! ...deleted... > >Incidentally, will the new TechAlliance cover the gap, i.e. cater to >the needs of amateurs who do not wish to have any "representations", >including providing them with developement tools, etc...? > >Adel Assaad >CMU, PGH PA. Well, I just got BOTH the new APDAlog and the TechAlliance "MacQuarterly" and was pretty amazed. In addition to the problems Adel mentioned, APDAlog is "folksy" to the point of being ridiculous. There did appear to be some useful information in it, but overall it struck me as being highly unprofessional. On the bright side, part of the "about this organization..." section made it quite clear that amateurs and fans were still welcome. MacQuarterly, in sharp contrast, is MUCH more professional than the old APDAlog, and I expect that after my "free" membership runs out I will resubscribe. Unfortunately I didn't bring my copy in to work with me, but I'm sure some other bright soul can post some article samples. --mike bergman
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark Johnson) (02/02/89)
In article <19791@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> labc-4da@web-2e.berkeley.edu (Bob Heiney) writes: > >I'm very disturbed by the seeming greed of Apple with APDA products. If you too feel this way, don't post it to the net, but rather send it to the people who set the prices who don't read the net. Address flames to: APDA@APPLELINK.APPLE.COM Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: m.johnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) (02/02/89)
In article <25145@apple.Apple.COM> mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark Johnson) writes: > In article <19791@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> Bob Heiney writes: > > > >I'm very disturbed by the seeming greed of Apple with APDA products. > > If you too feel this way, don't post it to the net, but rather send it to > the people who set the prices who don't read the net. Address flames to: > > APDA@APPLELINK.APPLE.COM Agreed... but I suggest that non-email letters might be taken more seriously. Here's my advice to those that want to be heard: write a letter to Sue Espinosa... she's probably not the person setting the APDA prices and policies, but she's the Director of Apple Developer Channels. Do *not* flame in torrents of emotion... it'll devalue your letter. Instead, write clearly, politely and professionally. Let 'em know that you're unhappy; make it clear just why you believe that the new APDA pricing structure is unjustified and is a bad idea for developers and for Apple. If you've got some nice letterhead... use it! If you don't have professionally-printed letterhead, then laser-print up something that will suffice. Don't blow your own horn excessively, but make it clear from your writing style and knowledge that you're someone that Apple should be supporting, rather than soaking. If you have marketed software products for the Mac, or are preparing to do so, say so. If you're unwilling to buy products at the prices that Apple is asking, say so. If you're reconsidering your willingness to remain an APDA member, or to continue to develop Mac software, say so. Send the letter off to Sue Espinosa, c/o the APDA address given in the new APDAlog. If you have a fax, or a faxmodem, you might want to transmit the letter directly to APDA's fax machine at 408-562-3971. If you wait until the rates go down at night, you can probably send a 2-page letter for a buck or two from most areas of the country. It's a cheap investment, folks. If APDA has to dig through a pile of faxes and letters from unhappy members to find the few orders that they'll be receiving, they *might* begin to get the message. [$175 for THINK C, plus $15 for second-day-air shipping?? Fercryinoutloud!! MacConnection and MacWarehouse charge $95, plus $3/order for next-day-air shipping!] -- Dave Platt FIDONET: Dave Platt on 1:204/444 VOICE: (415) 493-8805 UUCP: ...!{ames,sun,uunet}!coherent!dplatt DOMAIN: dplatt@coherent.com INTERNET: coherent!dplatt@ames.arpa, ...@sun.com, ...@uunet.uu.net USNAIL: Coherent Thought Inc. 3350 West Bayshore #205 Palo Alto CA 94303
zebolskyd@byuvax.bitnet (02/02/89)
Thanks for posting your message, Mark. After seeing the $600 fee for being what used to be a Certified Developer (for free), it is nice to know that there is SOMEBODY who cares about small developers and amateurs. --Lyle D. Gunderson
holland@m2.csc.ti.com (Fred Hollander) (02/03/89)
In article <19866@coherent.com> dplatt@improper.coherent.com (Dave Platt) writ: >In article <25145@apple.Apple.COM> mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark Johnson) writes: >> In article <19791@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> Bob Heiney writes: >> > >> >I'm very disturbed by the seeming greed of Apple with APDA products. >> >> If you too feel this way, don't post it to the net, but rather send it to >> the people who set the prices who don't read the net. Address flames to: >> >> APDA@APPLELINK.APPLE.COM > >Agreed... but I suggest that non-email letters might be taken more >seriously. > >Here's my advice to those that want to be heard: write a letter to Sue >Espinosa... she's probably not the person setting the APDA prices and >policies, but she's the Director of Apple Developer Channels. Do *not* >flame in torrents of emotion... it'll devalue your letter. Instead, ... >writing style and knowledge that you're someone that Apple should be >supporting, rather than soaking. If you have marketed software products >for the Mac, or are preparing to do so, say so. If you're unwilling to I just wanted to add that you should include all software, including public domain, as they all make the Macintosh a "better place to be". Fred Hollander Computer Science Center Texas Instruments, Inc. holland%ti-csl@csnet-rela The above statements are my own and not representative of Texas Instruments.
zebolskyd@byuvax.bitnet (02/04/89)
I think the price jump that shocked me the most was the jump in the price for Macsbug:12.50 -> $30! And ResEdit doubled to $20. APDA was making money before, so it's not as if Apple had to raise prices to break even. If they had to raise prices for APDA to make THEM money, they should have left APDA alone. But I think the most horrible thing they have done is to kill the Certified Developer's program (free) and replace it with the Apple Partners program ($600 - SIX HUNDRED BUCKS - per year). Perhaps they are trying to snuff small developers and potential ones. Everybody write polite letters to Sue Espinosa telling her just how popular Apple's new prices and policies are. --Lyle D. Gunderson zebolskyd@byuvax.bitnet
ech@pegasus.ATT.COM (Edward C Horvath) (02/05/89)
From article <391zebolskyd@byuvax.bitnet>, by zebolskyd@byuvax.bitnet: > But I think the most horrible thing they have done is to kill the Certified > Developer's program (free) and replace it with the Apple Partners program > ($600 - SIX HUNDRED BUCKS - per year). Perhaps they are trying to snuff > small developers and potential ones. OK, I gotta put in my two bucks worth (was two cents before APDA went in-house :=) When the CDP started there was MacWrite and MacPaint. There was Lisa pascal. There were only 128K Macs, and they were a joke. We loved 'em, but they were a joke (remember the Commodore 128 came out at the same time for under $300). Today there's APDA, there's MacTutor, there are more C and pascal and miscellaneous languages and developer tools than I can list, there are mutual support groups on CI$, GENie, Delphi, UseNet, etc, dozens of books including IM, over 200 technotes... If you need the handholding that Mac Developer Tech Support (MacDTS) provides, and you are prepared to pay for it, become an Apple Partner. If you're a "small developer," you still have access to all the other materials, from APDA if nowhere else, at the same prices everybody else pays. For example, I got my "developer copy" of 6.0.3 early this week. Today it's up on GENie. At $5/hour it might cost $20 to get it, or could wait 'til next week and get a *free* copy from my local dealer. I haven't decided yet whether I'm going to "re-up" when they ask for the $600. Probably, because the two or three times a year I need an answer to a question only DTS can answer, I need it yesterday. And I'm making enough on my products to pay the freight. Meantime, Larry Rosenstein, Don Allen, Steve Brecher, Leonard Rosenthol, and lots of of other "heavies" in- and outside of Apple correspond on this net. Their advice is frequently BETTER than you can get from MacDTS. Relax, enjoy the ride. Why do you care if Apple charges for something YOU DON'T NEED ANYMORE? =Ned Horvath=
malczews@castor.usc.edu (Frank Malczewski) (02/05/89)
Speaking of Tech Notes from APDA, am I the only person to not have gotten either the 10/88 and the 12/88 sets? Frank Malczewski
rang@cpsin3.cps.msu.edu (Anton Rang) (02/06/89)
In article <860@fornax.UUCP> mcdonald@fornax.UUCP (Ken Mcdonald) writes: > [ ... ] >Apple has contiuously and without hesitation messed up everything it has >done concerning APDA. First, they appointed some bozo little operation >working out of a hole-in-the-wall (I know--I've been to the original APDA >shipping centre) as a monopolistic distributor of a bunch of very important >Apple stuff. [ ... ] As a fairly long-term A.P.P.L.E. member, I feel obliged to defend them a bit here. For those of you who don't know, A.P.P.L.E. (the Apple Pugetsound Program Library Exchange) is one of the oldest Apple users' groups in the country. Their publications--especially the magazine, Call-A.P.P.L.E., and their "Call-A.P.P.L.E. in Depth" series probably did more to make the Apple ][ successful than anything else (including all of Apple's marketing etc.). Admittedly, they didn't have as much experience with Mac's--but then, who did? Anyway, they are NOT "some bozo little operation"-- they're a nice user's group and source of technical info. (Personally, I feel they're slipping a bit downhill lately, but....) This is not intended to be a flame; I just felt like responding. I have no connection with them except as a VERY satisfied member over the last 5 years or so. (Note: A.P.P.L.E. is now known as the TechAlliance.) +---------------------------+------------------------+----------------------+ | Anton Rang (grad student) | "UNIX: Just Say No!" | "Do worry...be SAD!" | | Michigan State University | rang@cpswh.cps.msu.edu | | +---------------------------+------------------------+----------------------+
jordan@Apple.COM (Jordan Mattson) (02/07/89)
Dear Frank - The October and December 1988 Macintosh Technical Notes have been delayed, but they will soon be shipping from APDA. Sorry about this inconvience. Jordan Mattson UUCP: jordan@apple.apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. CSNET: jordan@apple.CSNET Tools & Languages Product Management 20525 Mariani Avenue, MS 27S Cupertino, CA 95014 408-973-4601 "Joy is the serious business of heaven." C.S. Lewis
jmunkki@kampi.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) (02/07/89)
In article <860@fornax.UUCP> mcdonald@fornax.UUCP (Ken Mcdonald) writes: >Apple seems to have adopted a policy of purposely alienating its small >developers. This is dangerous. Lots of the best ideas come from these >small developers. They also tend to be the best programmers, and are I agree. >quite capable of taking their skills elsewere and prospering, if they >decide Apple has made their working environment too hostile. That's what I intend to do. (Take a look at my .signature) I just hope that the NeXT registered developer program will accept me and that I can afford to join it. I know I can afford a NeXT, but I'm not sure that I'll have money left after buying a complete system & documentation. The Macintosh is getting old the same way the PC was getting old when the Macintosh came out. Unless the completely rewritten Mac OS is really good, we'll probably keep seeing a lot of ROM patches & buggy system software releases. You just can't keep enhancing an old product without introducing some new bugs. _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ | Juri Munkki jmunkki@hut.fi jmunkki@fingate.bitnet I Want Ne | | Helsinki University of Technology Computing Centre My Own XT | ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (02/09/89)
In article <19401@santra.UUCP>, jmunkki@kampi.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) writes... >In article <860@fornax.UUCP> mcdonald@fornax.UUCP (Ken Mcdonald) writes: >>Apple seems to have adopted a policy of purposely alienating its small >>developers. This is dangerous. Lots of the best ideas come from these >>small developers. They also tend to be the best programmers, and are > >I agree. > >>quite capable of taking their skills elsewere and prospering, if they >>decide Apple has made their working environment too hostile. > >That's what I intend to do. (Take a look at my .signature) I just hope >that the NeXT registered developer program will accept me and that I can >afford to join it. I know I can afford a NeXT, but I'm not sure that >I'll have money left after buying a complete system & documentation. I think this thread is about providing affordable tech docs and support for those among us who are not commercial developers. I find it interesting that Next is contrasted with APDA in this regard. Next's tech docs cost $250 for the set. Admittedly, they seem to consist of a huge amount of info, and may be worth the price. But they are clearly out of the hands of many "amateurs". For that matter, anyone who can afford the $8000 for the Next is probably not a small developer anyway, at least from how I read the posting referred to above. I don't think many amateurs are going to come up with the next great app sitting at their _own_ Next boxes: the price is prohibitive. And while the same might be true about the Mac IIx, I bet there are many small developers out there getting started on a Mac Plus, which they can more easily afford. Robert ------ ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu ------ generic disclaimer: all my opinions are mine
gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu (02/10/89)
/* 1:01 pm Feb 8, 1989 by ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu in comp.sys.mac */ > I find it interesting that Next is contrasted with APDA in this > regard. Next's tech docs cost $250 for the set. Admittedly, they > seem to consist of a huge amount of info, and may be worth the price. > But they are clearly out of the hands of many "amateurs". This is interesting. I recently decided to begin some serious yet amateur programming. I have tried to economize and always buy the best bargains, but I would not skimp if it meant incomplete documentation: Macintosh NeXT Inside Mac I, II, IV, V: $110 Objective C compiler $free LightspeedC 2.15 $95 Interface builder $free Mac Prog. Secrets (mistake) $25 Documentation (1000+pp) $250 Turbo Pascal Prog (tutorial) $25 Mactutor (3 issues) $12 total: $267 $250 With the NeXT box, you also end up with an interface builder. The automatic interface builders for the mac cost $100 or so, I believe. So the NeXT box is cheaper to program than the macintosh, when you think about it. Furthermore, the interface builder is a double-edged sword -- it (a) speeds up UI generation (extremely tedious work), and (b) is a great teaching/learning aid for the beginning programmer. Everyone knows the macintosh is too expensive to program. Apple is just exploiting this fact.
anson@spray.CalComp.COM (Ed Anson) (02/10/89)
In article <sXtTiQy00WB3IbtGJS@andrew.cmu.edu> aa0s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Adel Talaat Assaad) writes: >I just received the first APDAlog from the "NEW & AMENDED" APDA run by >Apple, and boy did I dislike what I saw. They charge membership, and THEN >charge RETAIL for everything. Some prices went up 125% (TechNotes) and >the shipping and handling charge makes it sound like you should have >D. Trump's fortune to deal with them. I'm inclined to agree. The price increases were a most unpleasant surprise. On the other hand, I no longer have to wait weeks and weeks for my order to be filled. I just placed an order with them a few days ago, and it arrived yesterday. >They specifically make you state that you are repesenting yourself as >a "developer of computer software and/or hardware with substantial >experience in computer programming (which I do) and in USING >PROGRAMMER TOOLS AND UTILITIES (which I don't want to be)." Don't worry about representations. My impression is that they just want you to acknowledge that you know what you're getting into when you order one of their products. A similar representation was included in the old APDA application. They don't want people complaining about bugs in beta software. >Incidentally, will the new TechAlliance cover the gap TechAlliance will continue to sell third-party software and hardware, both to professionals and to amateurs. In fact, they have substantially increased their third-party line. Unfortunately, they won't be handling Apple label products any more, which is what the changes are all about. Apple's APDA has some third-party stuff, but the selection is very limited and their prices are not attractive. BTW: If you were a member of the old APDA, you should be receiving your first issue of MacTech Quarterly about now. Mine came a day or two ago. It is a substantially revised and expanded version of the old APDAlog. It includes more articles than catalog, since it is trying to be a general purpose delopers' magazine. The bottom line is this: There is no more one stop shopping for developer information and tools. If it has the Apple logo on it, you have to go to Apple/APDA. Otherwise, TechAlliance is still preferred. I guess this means eventually having to pay TWO $20 annual memberships :-( -- ===================================================================== Ed Anson, Calcomp Display Products Division, Hudson NH 03051 (603) 885-8712, anson@elrond.CalComp.COM
bob@accuvax.nwu.edu (Bob Hablutzel) (02/11/89)
>> I find it interesting that Next is contrasted with APDA in this >> regard. Next's tech docs cost $250 for the set. Admittedly, they >> seem to consist of a huge amount of info, and may be worth the price. >> But they are clearly out of the hands of many "amateurs". >This is interesting. I recently decided to begin some serious yet >amateur programming. I have tried to economize and always buy the best >bargains, but I would not skimp if it meant incomplete documentation: >Macintosh NeXT >Inside Mac I, II, IV, V: $110 Objective C compiler $free >LightspeedC 2.15 $95 Interface builder $free >Mac Prog. Secrets (mistake) $25 Documentation (1000+pp) $250 >Turbo Pascal Prog (tutorial) $25 >Mactutor (3 issues) $12 > total: $267 $250 >With the NeXT box, you also end up with an interface builder. The >automatic interface builders for the mac cost $100 or so, I believe. >So the NeXT box is cheaper to program than the macintosh, when you >think about it. Furthermore, the interface builder is a double-edged >sword -- it (a) speeds up UI generation (extremely tedious work), and >(b) is a great teaching/learning aid for the beginning programmer. >Everyone knows the macintosh is too expensive to program. Apple is >just exploiting this fact. Shall we make the list complete? We are talking about the beginning programmer, not the professional, right? So: Macintosh Next Mac Plus (or SE) About $2-3000 Next box $6500 If we are talking about the random beginning programmer, the Next box isn't even obtainable. If we are talking about a random student programmer, the Mac is still cheaper to start on than the Next. If we are talking about a professional programmer, the difference in price will be quickly made up by the greater market potential of the Mac. Bottom line: Until the Next machine is available to businesses, it ain't worth it. Bob Bob Hablutzel Wildwood Software BOB@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU
ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (02/12/89)
In article <10330132@accuvax.nwu.edu>, bob@accuvax.nwu.edu (Bob Hablutzel) writes... >>This is interesting. I recently decided to begin some serious yet >>amateur programming. I have tried to economize and always buy the best >>bargains, but I would not skimp if it meant incomplete documentation: > [how mac programming aids cost more than next programming aids] > >>Everyone knows the macintosh is too expensive to program. Apple is >>just exploiting this fact. > > >Shall we make the list complete? We are talking about the beginning programmer, >not the professional, right? So: > > Macintosh Next > > Mac Plus (or SE) About $2-3000 Next box $6500 > >If we are talking about the random beginning programmer, the Next box isn't >even obtainable. If we are talking about a random student programmer, the >Mac is still cheaper to start on than the Next. If we are talking about a >professional programmer, the difference in price will be quickly made up by >the greater market potential of the Mac. One other thing to note: in Bob's note the Next is listed at $6500. This is (of course) the student price. But to compare student prices with student prices: if you're a student, you can now get an SE/30 for a price at the upper end of the $2000-3000 price Bob mentioned for the Plus & SE. In fact, you can get a Plus for a little over $1000, and an SE for somewhat less then $2000. (And even if you're not a student, you can get a Plus _retail_ for about $1200.) Now I'm not even beginning to compare the functionality of a Mac Plus with a Next box, but we're talking affordability, right? The Mac prices would seem more in line with what most non-rich, not-yet-established programmers could afford. (And I think you can do some serious hacking on a Mac Plus: remember, that was what all those cool apps were written on before the SE and // came along.) Robert ------ ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu ------ generic disclaimer: all my opinions are mine
bytebug@dhw68k.cts.com (Roger L. Long) (02/15/89)
In article <2584@nunki.usc.edu> Frank Malczewski writes: >Speaking of Tech Notes from APDA, am I the only person to not have gotten >either the 10/88 and the 12/88 sets? Should have looked in comp.binaries.mac. I try get the Tech Notes posted as soon as I get them. The 10/88 and 12/88 sets were combined and posted early in January: Jan 4 <17931@dhw68k.cts.com> 0 About Macintosh Technical Notes Jan 5 <17948@dhw68k.cts.com> 34 User Items in Dialogs Jan 5 <17957@dhw68k.cts.com> 68 Searching All Directories Jan 5 <17968@dhw68k.cts.com> 86 MacPaint Document Format Jan 5 <17977@dhw68k.cts.com> 108 _AddDrive, _DrvrInstall and _DrvrRemove Jan 5 <17983@dhw68k.cts.com> 120 Drawing Into an Off-Screen PixMap Jan 6 <17999@dhw68k.cts.com> 129 _SysEnvirons Jan 6 <18002@dhw68k.cts.com> 184 Notification Manager Jan 6 <18010@dhw68k.cts.com> 189 Version Territory Jan 6 <18026@dhw68k.cts.com> 200 MPW 2.0.2 Bugs Jan 7 <18054@dhw68k.cts.com> 202 Resetting the Event Mask Jan 7 <18062@dhw68k.cts.com> 205 MultiFinder Revisited Jan 7 <18075@dhw68k.cts.com> 207 Styled TextEdit Changes in System 6.0 Jan 8 <18153@dhw68k.cts.com> 208 Setting and Restoring A5 Jan 8 <18156@dhw68k.cts.com> 211 Palette Manager Changes in System 6.0.2 Jan 8 <18172@dhw68k.cts.com> 212 The Joy of Being 32-Bit Clean Jan 8 <18178@dhw68k.cts.com> 213 _StripAddress Jan 9 <18190@dhw68k.cts.com> 214 New Resource Manager Calls Jan 9 <18194@dhw68k.cts.com> 215 "New" cdev Messages Jan 9 <18202@dhw68k.cts.com> 216 AppleShare 1.1 and 2.0 Limits Jan 9 <18205@dhw68k.cts.com> 217 Where Have My Font Icons Gone? Jan 9 <18208@dhw68k.cts.com> 218 New High-Level File Manager Calls Jan 9 <18216@dhw68k.cts.com> 219 New Memory Manager Glue Routines Jan 10 <18242@dhw68k.cts.com> 220 Segment Loader Limitations Jan 10 <18250@dhw68k.cts.com> 221 NuBus Interrupt Latency Jan 10 <18256@dhw68k.cts.com> Index (part 1 of 2) Jan 10 <18262@dhw68k.cts.com> Index (part 2 of 2) Jan 11 <18319@dhw68k.cts.com> The Sound Manager (part 1 of 3) Jan 11 <18324@dhw68k.cts.com> The Sound Manager (part 2 of 3) Jan 12 <18383@dhw68k.cts.com> The Sound Manager (part 3 of 3) -- Roger L. Long dhw68k!bytebug