werner@utastro.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (03/01/89)
In article <928@stech.UUCP>, sysop@stech.UUCP (Jan Harrington) writes: > in article <84702@felix.UUCP>, kehr@felix.UUCP (Shirley Kehr) says: > > In article <1154@bub.sdl.UUCP> lad@sdl.UUCP (Lawrence A. Deleski) writes: > >> but there is nothing wrong with posting macs for sale in comp.sys.mac. > >> How about it netters, wanna vote on this? I asume you are being rethoric here; if you want to call for a vote on the purpose of a group, you do that by , at least, cross-posting in group news.groups. Calling for a vote in a followup article like yours reaches only the "hardcore" news-junkies (and folks with an axe to grind in this topic) - anyone who is bothered by for-sale articles and who has any sense is trying hard to ignore this discussion thread. calling for a vote in an article in this thread, is like asking on skid-row who is for "free needles" - news junkies should not try to redefine the purpose of news-groups and make it even harder for the busy majority to keep track and in touch with technical issues. discussions were held way back, and misc.for-sale was created as an outlet for the MINORITY who would insist to abuse this media for commercial activities and to do so without even restricting the distribution area of their articles (carelessly and through ignorance, I don't know what is worse) > > Yes. I'd rather see Macs for sale here too. That way I don't have to read > > about PC's and other stuff that I couldn't imagine using in any current > > machine. look, this is ridiculous. read the classifieds in your local news-paper, read the bulletin board in your computer store, read a local BBS-system. Because, let me tell you, there are a lot better bargains to be found there!!! From the articles I have seen here, the majority of for-sale articles are priced in a way that have me convinced that the poster is not limiting the distribution simple to be able to reach a larger pool of FOOLS - and I consider that DOUBLE abuse of this communication channel provided courtesy of someone else's wallet!! I suspect, some of you might even be under the impression that the for-sale articles will give you a "feel" of the used-equipment market: WRONG, not the articles on this network. the fact is that most netters, at any given time, are not in the market for used equipment, and if they are they should be interested in learning about equipment for-sale "IN DRIVING DISTANCE!!", not half-way around the globe. (in case you didn't notice, you folks, carelessly, ignored my remark that I have little problem with for-sale articles posted to comp.sys.mac with distribution limited to an area the seller/buyer is willing to travel by car for a demo: > > Has anyone read misc.forsale lately? I posted a PC for sale there > > and not only have I not had any replies, I haven't even seen a complaint > > about the price. I wonder if anyone reads misc.forsale unless they have > > something to sell. the message you should have gotten is (and a little investigation might have led you to it) that commercial gain messages are against the rules of the game and are, explicitly, disallowed at many of the major backbone sites. That the net-gods, in their wisdom and knowing that there are always bozos who will disregard the wishes of the ones paying the bills, and who will insist that they deserve a forum to do with as they please in their little corner of the net where they pay the bills, well, the gods decided to create a top level msg-class "misc" and below it "misc.for-sale", thus making it possible for those companies who choose not to support for-sale articles, to simply not propagate a whole class of messages. you NEARLY got the right message when you wonder if it could be that the only ones who care are the ones that happen to want to sell something. you folks remind me of the telephone and door-to-door solicitors who act surprised when I tell them that they are abusing my time and the priviledge of ringing a person's doorbell and telephone. they say: "but, but, there are people who buy things" (hinting, of course, at what a wonderful bargain they have, rather than that ringing enough doors you can always find a sucker, eventually). so, to conclude, that because posting to misc.for-sale doesn't work, but posting to comp.sys.mac led to a sale, ergo posting for-sale articles to comp.sys.mac is both accepted and effective is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG !!! you abuse the privilege of having your articles to comp.sys.mac broadcasted by those sites trusting that you will not abuse it with commercial gains articles, and you are showing no concern and understanding of the nuisance you are to most people by sprinkling your commercial into the middle of a technical discussion forum. In addition, you have no insight and foresight in that if we'd all use this medium for our personal advertisements, it would soon come to a screaching halt. Just imagine, all your dear neighbors coming by and ringing your doorbell every weekend to tell you: "can I just have 30 seconds of your time to tell you about the garage-sale I'm holding? but if you are not interested, just use 2 seconds to say NO, and I'll be on my way..." lovely concept, isn't it ?!?! especially if it's not just your neighbor but THE WHOLE FREAKING WORLD that knocks on your electronic door .... plus, you end up paying for the phone-call !!! > I agree that sales notices of Mac-related things should go in comp.sys.mac. > It's where we all look. Personally, I think that the people who post > used machine sales are doing us all a service. I don't mind it one bit. OH, brother, "doing us a service" - what a concept. maybe we should all type in the contents of the computer section of the local classifieds and post them (mail them to you ???....) "It's where we all look" - really. why don't you look into reading the periodically posted articles explaining netiquette to new users? just maybe it contains a section on "for-sale" and commercial gains news-articles ... -- -----------> PREFERED RETURN-ADDRESS FOLLOWS <-------------- (ARPA) werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (Internet: 128.83.144.1) (UUCP) ..!utastro!werner or ..!uunet!rascal.ics.utexas.edu!werner
ngg@bridge2.3Com.Com (Norman Goodger) (03/02/89)
In article <3672@utastro.UUCP> werner@utastro.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) writes: > >> >> How about it netters, wanna vote on this? > > look, this is ridiculous. read the classifieds in your local > news-paper, read the bulletin board in your computer store, > read a local BBS-system. Because, let me tell you, there are > a lot better bargains to be found there!!! > > and I consider that DOUBLE abuse of this communication channel > provided courtesy of someone else's wallet!! Actually I feel far more "abused" by your 122 line message "flaming" people whose messages selling Mac Stuff are maybe 20 - 30 lines max & usually shorter. I think you you should practice what you preach. Instead of flaming us to death about how you think items for sale should be dealt with. I would much rather see an overpriced for sale ad, than what you had to complain about... p n e w s can be a pain when it counts lines... -- Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 3Com Corp. Co-Sysop FreeSoft RT - GEnie. Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything)
lad@sdl.UUCP (Lawrence A. Deleski) (03/03/89)
From article <3672@utastro.UUCP>, by werner@utastro.UUCP (Werner Uhrig): > In article <928@stech.UUCP>, sysop@stech.UUCP (Jan Harrington) writes: >> in article <84702@felix.UUCP>, kehr@felix.UUCP (Shirley Kehr) says: >> > In article <1154@bub.sdl.UUCP> lad@sdl.UUCP (Lawrence A. Deleski) writes: > >> >> but there is nothing wrong with posting macs for sale in comp.sys.mac. >> >> How about it netters, wanna vote on this? > I asume you are being rethoric here; if you want to call for a vote > on the purpose of a group, you do that by , at least, cross-posting > in group news.groups. No, I am not. I simply stated a preference, and asked people to agree/disagree with me. I had several people agree with posting for sale items to this group, not one against (except you, of course). I still feel that posting sale equipment to this group is OK, and the majority agrees. > Calling for a vote in a followup article like yours reaches only > the "hardcore" news-junkies (and folks with an axe to grind in this > topic) - anyone who is bothered by for-sale articles and who has > any sense is trying hard to ignore this discussion thread. Bull. And let's get one thing straight, I never 'called for a vote' in the sense of calling for the net.general.audience to vote, I aksed people what they're preference was. Everyone who reads this group is affected by what is decided here, so why not post the question here? [totally silly "free needles" analogy deleted] > discussions were held way back, and misc.for-sale was created > as an outlet for the MINORITY who would insist to abuse this > media for commercial activities and to do so without even restricting > the distribution area of their articles (carelessly and through > ignorance, I don't know what is worse) Whoa. misc.forsale was NOT created for any commercial activity at ALL. I remember the creation of misc.forsale clearly. It was created for 'those wishing to post personal items for sale to the net.community' (taken from the control message, don't ask me why I save these things). And what minority? I remember an overwhelming vote for misc.forsale. But we're straying too far from the original subject... > > look, this is ridiculous. read the classifieds in your local > news-paper, read the bulletin board in your computer store, > read a local BBS-system. You're the one who's being ridiculous. You're making a big deal out of something that should not even be an issue. Explain to me how much better a local newspaper can be versus a worldwide net when it comes to buying/selling equipment. > Because, let me tell you, there are > a lot better bargains to be found there!!! Says you. I've gotten some great deals from the net, and I've even made a few sales. > I suspect, some of you might even be under the impression that the > for-sale articles will give you a "feel" of the used-equipment > market: WRONG, not the articles on this network. Again, your opinion. Not the consensus of the people who read this group. > the fact is that most netters, at any given time, are not in the > market for used equipment, I'd like to see the survey you took to come up with that little gem of information. > and if they are they should be interested > in learning about equipment for-sale "IN DRIVING DISTANCE!!", not > half-way around the globe. (in case you didn't notice, you folks, > carelessly, ignored my remark that I have little problem with for-sale > articles posted to comp.sys.mac with distribution limited to an > area the seller/buyer is willing to travel by car for a demo: Why should anyone limit the ditribution on a posted forsale article when it has a better chance of finding a home with a larger distribution? Your agruments don't make sense. It seems you only get mad when you read articles posted by someone NOT within driving distance of your home. > the message you should have gotten is (and a little investigation > might have led you to it) that commercial gain messages are against > the rules of the game and are, explicitly, disallowed at many of > the major backbone sites. Thanks for telling us something we already know. I haven't seen a posted article from a commercial concern in ages, and I read thses groups every day. When someone does post an article that is obviously a commercial entity trying to sell to the net it is trounced upon with cat-like swiftness. > That the net-gods, in their wisdom and > knowing that there are always bozos who will disregard the wishes > of the ones paying the bills, and who will insist that they deserve > a forum to do with as they please in their little corner of the net > where they pay the bills, well, the gods decided to create a top > level msg-class "misc" and below it "misc.for-sale", thus making it > possible for those companies who choose not to support for-sale > articles, to simply not propagate a whole class of messages. You are simply WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. misc.forsale is for private postings only. No commercial posts at all. That's the was it's been for as long as I can remember. > you folks remind me of the telephone and door-to-door solicitors > who act surprised when I tell them that they are abusing my time You remind me of the old guy who used to live at the end of my street when I was a kid. Man, he would bitch about EVERYTHING, kids, taxes, cars, you name it, he bitched about it. He died. > so, to conclude, that because posting to misc.for-sale doesn't > work, but posting to comp.sys.mac led to a sale, ergo posting > for-sale articles to comp.sys.mac is both accepted and effective > is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG !!! No, your idea that you are right about this is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG !!! You don't have a shred of support for your argument, except that it pisses you off. Well, I'm afraid that ain't good enough. > you abuse the privilege of having your > articles to comp.sys.mac broadcasted by those sites trusting that > you will not abuse it with commercial gains articles, and you are You do not have one shred of evidence suggesting that any article recently posted was posted by someone who was not selling it for personal purposed only. You rag on and on about something you can't even prove! Either accept it the way it is or give it up. [stuff deleted about how Werner thinks we are 'nuisances'] > lovely concept, isn't it ?!?! especially if it's not just your > neighbor but THE WHOLE FREAKING WORLD that knocks on your electronic > door .... plus, you end up paying for the phone-call !!! I got a simple solution for you: DON'T READ THE FREAKING GROUP!!! -- Lawrence A. Deleski | Silicon Compiler Systems uunet!clyde!sdl!bub!lad | 15 Independence Blvd. Cash-We-Serve 76127,104 | Warren, NJ 07060 MABELL: (201) 580-0102 | Ext. 283
wert@cup.portal.com (robert scott comer) (03/05/89)
I agree with werner, no ads! See, one line: scott comer
david@wiley.UUCP (David Hull) (03/06/89)
In article <1162@bub.sdl.UUCP> lad@sdl.UUCP (Lawrence A. Deleski) writes: >I had several people agree with posting for sale >items to this group, not one against (except you, of course). I, too, wish that people wouldn't post for-sale items to comp.sys.mac. I look at it as a case of what's fair. We have to remember that in Usenet, unlike commercial information services, the costs are borne by everybody, not just the poster and the readers. So, who benefits from the typical posting in which some question gets asked or answered? Assuming that we learn something, everybody. Who benefits from a for-sale notice? Two people: the seller and the buyer. So I ask, is it fair that I should pay for the cost of your advertisement? I agree with Werner: people who have something to sell should take out a classified ad in their local newspaper. Let those who benefit bear the costs. -David
lipa@polya.Stanford.EDU (William J. Lipa) (03/07/89)
In article <4206@wiley.UUCP> david@wiley.UUCP (David Hull) writes: >I, too, wish that people wouldn't post for-sale items to comp.sys.mac. Me too. Most of the time when I read comp.sys.mac I am not interested in seeing endless streams of advertisements. However, I can see that these messages provide a valuable service to the buyers and sellers of used Mac-related products. It seems to me that a reasonable solution would be to create a new group for this purpose, called (for example) misc.forsale.mac. That way people could conveniently skip over such advertisements except when they were interested in purchasing or selling something. Also, sites could choose whether or not they were interested in carrying advertisements without having to sacrifice all the rest of comp.sys.mac. Bill Lipa [Note followup to news.groups]