gtww2z9z@umiami.miami.edu (Jason Gross) (03/10/89)
This really isn't a flame, just a curious question: The university sell PS/2's in the computer lab. Now, I own an SE and I would put it head-to-head with the IBM anyday, but I think strikes be as rather odd. For less money than even the Consortium price of an SE, you can get a PS/2 Model 30 with COLOR! Why hasn't Apple seen fit to put a nice little (actually, a little larger!) color monitor in its Plusses and SE's? I'm sure Apple's engineers are quite the knowledgable bunch so it seems wierd why such a seeming simple improvement has been neglected. Matter of fact, our IBM salesman uses this to his own advantage: "Why buy a Mac in black-in-white, when for such-and-such amount less, you can get a '286 machine with 256,000 colors? On the Mac, you need to spend another $1500 for color. Does that make any sense?" Comments, rumors, and un-informed anecdotes welcome! Have a nice day. -- Jason Gross Comp Sci Ugrad University of Miami Class of '91 (?) =========================================================================== "Not my goddamn | At the tone, leave your reply and Visa card number at: planet, monkey- | Internet: gtww2z9z@umiami.miami.edu boy." - B. Banzai | Bitnet: Watch This Space! =========================================================================== ** Disclaimer: Disclaimer? Why, I never claimed 'er in the first place! **
jfm@ruddles.sprl.umich.edu.engin.umich.edu (John F. Mansfield) (03/10/89)
In article <520@umiami.miami.edu> gtww2z9z@umiami.miami.edu (Jason Gross) writes: >This really isn't a flame, just a curious question: > >The university sell PS/2's in the computer lab. Now, I own an SE and I would >put it head-to-head with the IBM anyday, but I think strikes be as rather odd. >For less money than even the Consortium price of an SE, you can get a PS/2 >Model 30 with COLOR! Yeah, but then you have an itty biity machine, not a Mac! :^) John Mansfield North Campus Electron Microbeam Analysis Laboratory 2455 Hayward, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-2143. 313-936-3352 Internet: jfm@ruddles.sprl.umich.edu or john_mansfield.um.cc.umich.edu
merchant@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Peter Merchant) (03/10/89)
In article <520@umiami.miami.edu> gtww2z9z@umiami.miami.edu (Jason Gross) writes: >The university sell PS/2's in the computer lab. Now, I own an SE and I would >put it head-to-head with the IBM anyday, but I think strikes be as rather odd. >For less money than even the Consortium price of an SE, you can get a PS/2 >Model 30 with COLOR! Why hasn't Apple seen fit to put a nice little (actually, >a little larger!) color monitor in its Plusses and SE's? I'm sure Apple's >engineers are quite the knowledgable bunch so it seems wierd why such a >seeming simple improvement has been neglected. > >Matter of fact, our IBM salesman uses this to his own advantage: "Why buy >a Mac in black-in-white, when for such-and-such amount less, you can >get a '286 machine with 256,000 colors? On the Mac, you need to spend >another $1500 for color. Does that make any sense?" Okay, a few notes. From what I understand, internal colour monitors for the Macintosh Plus/SE would be quite expensive because of the size. I don't know specifics, but that's the way I understood it. What to say to the fun folks from IBM: "Gee, 256,000 colours!? That's neat! Tell me, though, what software supports all those colours? And, well, where can I get a printer to print all those colours for under $4000? So, in the end, other than playing all those really nifty games, what does the colour end up getting me?" Also, check your prices. The Model 30 does NOT have a '286. IBM makes a special Model 30-286. The pricing that I have seen puts it, with a monochrome monitor and 2 disk drives, around the same place as a Macintosh Plus. --- "Oh, God, I hope I get it..." Peter Merchant (merchant@eleazar.UUCP) (Peter.G.Merchant@dartmouth.EDU)
air@anableps.berkeley.edu (03/11/89)
I am on the IBM(clone) side of this debate. I like at least 16 colors out of a pallate of 64(EGA) for cad. I like 256 out of 256000 for buisnes presantation graphics. A slide maker for this purpose is well under ~4000.00 (~1000.00) and slide making services are available. A 286 with VGA HIGH LEVEL can be had for ~2000.00 A 386 with same(to compare with MACII) for ~3500.00 These often include Harddrives. BTW: The monitors are at least 14" diagonal on all i've seen. _______ _ __ _ _ __ __ Arthur Ernest Wright @ \ / / \ / / \ / \ / / / \ (503)344-7969 BUY NET \ O / /__/ /__ / / /__/ / /__ \__ ___ _ _ _ \ / / / / / / / / | | |_ / | \ /\ | /\ /_ \/ v / /__ \_/ / /__ /__ \__/ | |_ \_ | | \/ |_ \/ \/ /
prw@meccts.MECC.MN.ORG (Paul Wenker) (03/11/89)
I once read (in MacWeek I think) that one of the problems of doing a color SE is that color CRTs have longer necks on them and don't easily fit into the SE case. I'm sure there is a hardware person out there somewhere that would know whether this is legit or not. --- Paul Wenker UUCP: prw@mecc.mn.org MECC, Advanced Development AppleLink: MECC.TECH
austing@apple.com (Glenn L. Austin) (03/14/89)
In article <21440@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> air@anableps.berkeley.edu writes: > I am on the IBM(clone) side of this debate. > I like at least 16 colors out of a pallate of 64(EGA) for cad. > > I like 256 out of 256000 for buisnes presantation graphics. > > A slide maker for this purpose is well under ~4000.00 (~1000.00) > and slide making services are available. > > A 286 with VGA HIGH LEVEL can be had for ~2000.00 > > A 386 with same(to compare with MACII) for ~3500.00 > > These often include Harddrives. > BTW: The monitors are at least 14" diagonal on all i've seen. Does *all* your software support it??? Probably not, since I used (and sold) IBM PCs, XTs, ATs, and PS/2s, and all you really get is a character-based machine that has the ability to do graphics (poorly). What happens when EVGA comes out? Oh well, upgrade all your software to make use of it. Also, if you tried any of the graphics-based shells yet (like Windows)? You probably did, and unless you had a 20MHz 386, you probably gave up on it, and couldn't understand why a lowly 8MHz Mac Plus could outperform your clone when it came to graphics. The simple reason is this -- 5 to 4. For every average instruction, the Intel processor reads 5 bytes, one at a time, whereas the Motorola processor reads 4 bytes in one chunk, and then can execute it. Why is this difference significant? Because it is faster to read memory in a chunk, and because the Intel processor has to (on average) read 1 byte, find out it needs a second byte to even determine which instruction to execute, read that byte, find out that it needs some more data, read that data -- and so on. However, the 680x0 reads 4 bytes at a gulp, and since ~75% of all instructions (~85% of commonly used instructions) fit within that 4 byte window, the processor has all the info it needs! Also, I can print pretty decent color on my ~$450 ImageWriter II -- without having any additional drivers, hardware, or special software. I know from experience that you can't say the same about the IBM!!! austing@apple.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mitchell's Law of Committees: Any simple problem can be made insolvable if enough meetings are held to discuss it ----------------------------------------------------------------- If you don't like what I said, dial "1-800-123-NUTZ"
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (03/16/89)
/* Written 2:00 pm Mar 10, 1989 by prw@meccts.MECC.MN.ORG in uxe.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.mac */ I once read (in MacWeek I think) that one of the problems of doing a color SE is that color CRTs have longer necks on them and don't easily fit into the SE case. I'm sure there is a hardware person out there somewhere that would know whether this is legit or not. /* End of text from uxe.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.mac */ It is true that color CRT's, especially data grade ones, have longer necks. But that is not a reason not to offer one. There is ONE and ONLY one reason Apple would not sell a color Mac cheaper that a Mac II : they figure that they will make more money that way. All Mac are far overpriced, compared to what one gets in top-notch PC clones (and, at the price IBM sells to large organizations, a genuine IBM lemon.) It would be trivial to make a bigger case. It is also true that color drawing takes more horsepower than mono - all Mac's are underpowered, and a less than Mac II would likely be too slow, even for mac, people who are used to sluggishness. Doug McDonald